Morality/Sportsmanship Question

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
You’re playing doubles and your partner calls a ball out that you clearly saw in. (could be a serve, line call, etc) Do you go with your partner’s call or do you speak up, go against your partner and call it in.
 
You’re playing doubles and your partner calls a ball out that you clearly saw in. (could be a serve, line call, etc) Do you go with your partner’s call or do you speak up, go against your partner and call it in.
Unless I didn't get a good look [ie I'm far away from the landing spot and my partner is a lot closer], I will overrule.

I want the correct call to be made, not necessarily the one that benefits my team. We all make mistakes and that's acceptable. What's not acceptable is someone always making "mistakes" in their favor.
 

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
Overruled my partner a couple times this past weekend in a tournament. Usually on service returns, I will default to my partner as they are standing on the line with the best look, but this one did the low skip that happens when it hits the line, so I knew it was in. The other time was with us both on the baseline. He was trying to dig out an overhead and called it out. I was just watching from the baseline and saw it in, so called it in.

In addition to just doing it for the sake of fair play, it also has some psychological benefits with your opponents. If they see me overrule my partner, they are likely to think that we are calling honest lines and will be more likely to do the same.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Always overrule. If you're 100% sure, why wouldn't you?
I’ve played with people who don’t. You know that situation where the call is questionable, one partner makes the call and the other is quiet and holds their head down? Everyone on the court knows that ball was called incorrectly, the one partner just doesn’t have the balls to overrule their partner.

I can’t in good conscious accept/ take a point that I didn’t win.
 
If I can see the ball clearly then I will overrule an incorrect call from my partner. If I'm in doubt I will defer to the caller.

Same when I'm receiving fast serves. I find it hard to call the service line accurately so defer to my partner making the call if the serve is long otherwise I simply play the return unless it is long enough for me to see accurately. I'm sure it means I end up playing some long serves as in but I'd rather that than being a tight ass calling everything near the line out. Especially in social/friendly tennis. If it was a match I guess I may have to ask for a line judge
 
You’re playing doubles and your partner calls a ball out that you clearly saw in. (could be a serve, line call, etc) Do you go with your partner’s call or do you speak up, go against your partner and call it in.
99% of the time correct a wrong call.
 
If I'm sure, I will correct the call. I also will call foot faults on my partner.
You're watching your partner as he serves? I'm assuming you turn back towards the net eventually: at what time do you do that? Or maybe you're playing 2 back?

I don't do that for 2 reasons:
- I don't want to get hit in the face by an errant serve
- It adds to the difficulty of reading the returner
 
You're watching your partner as he serves?
Vic Sexias looked back at his partner when he/she was serving--he said if he knew where the ball was going, and it was going to hit him, he could get out of the way. Looking deeply into your opponent's eyes to discern where the ball is going is no guarantee that will work--they may be dyslexic.
 
Great to see so many honest people here, who will go straight to the overrule. As we all know, however, every once in a great while we get “that partner” who is just very sensitive to these things. Wrongly so of course, but sensitive nonetheless and you’d kind of like to avoid infuriating them, while still getting to a just result. For that partner, an option you might try is to go over to them, and quietly ask if they were really certain, because you saw it in. Sometimes that can get them to change their call, and avoids overly offending them. If they still won’t change the call, just say ok, and then dump the next point if you feel that strongly about it. You can even add a wink to your opponent if you want. Just trying to give a practical option for those who fear a blowup with their partner on court and/or afterwards.
 
Great to see so many honest people here, who will go straight to the overrule. As we all know, however, every once in a great while we get “that partner” who is just very sensitive to these things. Wrongly so of course, but sensitive nonetheless and you’d kind of like to avoid infuriating them, while still getting to a just result. For that partner, an option you might try is to go over to them, and quietly ask if they were really certain, because you saw it in. Sometimes that can get them to change their call, and avoids overly offending them. If they still won’t change the call, just say ok, and then dump the next point if you feel that strongly about it. You can even add a wink to your opponent if you want. Just trying to give a practical option for those who fear a blowup with their partner on court and/or afterwards.
If I have to walk on eggshells and handle my partner with kid gloves, that's not a partner I want: when the going gets tough, our partnership and communication will likely crumble. Better to rip the Band Aid off quickly. If he doesn't want to partner with me anymore, well, that might be a blessing.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Yup, agree with all these good morally upright people here ... If I see it as clearly in I will overrule. If I have doubt I will defer to partner if partner is in a better position..

Yes, @NumbersGuy those partners are out there. They are typically un-fun to play with for a lot of other reasons on top of the line calls and the blow-ups.

@MathGeek calling a footfault on your partner? You don't even have a good angle for that from the service line unless it is terribly obvious.
 

r2473

G.O.A.T.
It just depends on the point. If it’s break point or match point, no way. If we’re up 40-0, then I’d overrule and give the point to my opponents, to show my good sportsmanship.
 

chic

Semi-Pro
I will overrule if I'm very certain I saw otherwise and am in a position where I have a good angle at whatever line is in question. Which is to say, I dont overrule often.
 
...and then dump the next point if you feel that strongly about it. You can even add a wink to your opponent if you want.
Yup! In rec tennis and pro-ams, you can get stuck with partners with dubious vision, the give-back point is a way of evening up the score without embarrassment to the perp and disruptions.
 

AtTheNet

New User
My take is that I am morally obligated to do what I can to ensure that a correct call is made. I took a look at FOC on this issue, and it clearly makes the point that it is more important to make an accurate call or provide the benefit of any doubt to the opponent than to not hurt your partner's feelings.

I concur with NumbersGuy--if a partner gets that upset about reversing a call, then I don't need them as a partner. And, if they are deliberately making bad calls, I really don't need them as a partner.
 

ChaelAZ

Legend
I back my partner's call if I didn't have a clear call. But I always tell partners I play anything close, so it isn't a surprise if now and then I see a ball in, or out, that a partner calls the opposite.

The last league match before xmas I had a dubs guy I hadn't played with before and we had a few that we disagreed on. No biggy.
 

MathGeek

Hall of Fame
You're watching your partner as he serves? I'm assuming you turn back towards the net eventually: at what time do you do that? Or maybe you're playing 2 back?

I don't do that for 2 reasons:
- I don't want to get hit in the face by an errant serve
- It adds to the difficulty of reading the returner
I bet your partners serve the ball much faster than most of mine. The ball moves very slowly in my tennis world. I do play 2 back more than most if opponents are hitting the ball hard.

Yup, agree with all these good morally upright people here ... If I see it as clearly in I will overrule. If I have doubt I will defer to partner if partner is in a better position..

@MathGeek calling a footfault on your partner? You don't even have a good angle for that from the service line unless it is terribly obvious.
The angle from the service line is poor, but when the foot crosses the baseline completely, it's easy to see. I also play 2 back fairly often. I end up partnering with lots of players who are much better volleyers than I am, mediocre servers, and not willing to leg things out and play retriever. In these cases, we start two back, and the better volleyer who served goes to the net at the first opportunity.
 

mucat

Hall of Fame
Long time ago, I used to support just my partner even when I saw the call is wrong but that never felt right afterward.
Now, I will call things as it is and I will overrule when I am certain.
My mindset is, my line calling is independent of the current score or my play.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Played social tennis today. Opponent hit ball that was near baseline center hash, too high for either of us to reach. I was in deuce court in NML, near baseline, staring at the baseline because I had no play on the ball. Partner was in middle of service box. I called it out. She overruled me.

Was she right? I don't think so. I was closer to where the ball landed, I was looking right at it, and I saw space. I imagine that from where she stood, she did not see space because she was farther away and the angle was unfavorable for her. She didn't see space, so she thought it caught, I suppose.

If the situation were reversed, I would not have overruled because my partner was in better position and was standing right there watching. If my partner were scrambling, however, then I would overrule because I would have the better look at the ball even from farther away. I go with my partner's calls when they are in better position than me unless I have some good reason to think they are wrong.

But hey. She made a bad call. We gave up the point. Whatever.
 
Played social tennis today. Opponent hit ball that was near baseline center hash, too high for either of us to reach. I was in deuce court in NML, near baseline, staring at the baseline because I had no play on the ball. Partner was in middle of service box. I called it out. She overruled me.

Was she right? I don't think so. I was closer to where the ball landed, I was looking right at it, and I saw space. I imagine that from where she stood, she did not see space because she was farther away and the angle was unfavorable for her. She didn't see space, so she thought it caught, I suppose.

If the situation were reversed, I would not have overruled because my partner was in better position and was standing right there watching. If my partner were scrambling, however, then I would overrule because I would have the better look at the ball even from farther away. I go with my partner's calls when they are in better position than me unless I have some good reason to think they are wrong.

But hey. She made a bad call. We gave up the point. Whatever.
I try to remember Vic Braden's observation that the ball can roll as much as 2" between landing and rising [obviously that's on a low ball with considerable speed]. But our eyes don't capture every frame: we might take a snapshot when it landed, or, at the other extreme, when it rose. In either extreme, we're convinced we saw where it landed when in fact, there's some margin of error.

Hence, if it's less than 2" out, unless it's a very vertical shot [which won't roll as much] or a very slow one, I will give the opponent the benefit of the doubt.
 
That's covered by the relatively new rule if partners disagree on a call, the point goes to the opponents. You obviously had a better view of the ball from your location. Do you think your partner was cheating, has poor eyesight, or doesn't understand court geometry?
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
I try to remember Vic Braden's observation that the ball can roll as much as 2" between landing and rising [obviously that's on a low ball with considerable speed]. But our eyes don't capture every frame: we might take a snapshot when it landed, or, at the other extreme, when it rose. In either extreme, we're convinced we saw where it landed when in fact, there's some margin of error.

Hence, if it's less than 2" out, unless it's a very vertical shot [which won't roll as much] or a very slow one, I will give the opponent the benefit of the doubt.
Right. There is room for error. Which is one reason why position matters. A person in a poor position really shouldn’t be overruling someone in better position who is looking right at it. And this was a lob, so high and slow.
 
Right. There is room for error. Which is one reason why position matters. A person in a poor position really shouldn’t be overruling someone in better position who is looking right at it. And this was a lob, so high and slow.
the 2" error occurs even if you're standing right next to the landing spot. It's a function of the human visual system. Of course, it's compounded by variables like distance, angle, etc.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you since it was a mostly vertical and slower shot.
 

chic

Semi-Pro
If the situation were reversed, I would not have overruled because my partner was in better position and was standing right there watching.
I think it's important to note here, most rec players don't have a good conception of when they have a good/bad angle or position to make a call from. Especially at and below 4.0
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Putting my money where my mouth is, I’d had a mixed doubles match today. The team we were playing against, the guy had a big serve. He served a wide serve with a lot of pace to my partner and she called it wide. I clearly saw that it clipped the line. She immediately called it out, I said no partner the serve was good. She said “no it was wide” I told her again, no it was just a really good wide serve and the caught the outer edge of the line. She believed me and we continued play. The thing about it is even if even if she still protested (which she didn’t) we would had still lost the point because of the conflict of the call. After the game, the guy thanked me for the call. I said it’s the only way to play.

This was a 7.0 mixed league, she’s a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. I promise I’m not bragging, but I serve well over a 100 mph and I’ve had my serve called out simply because my opponent’s didn’t see it. I’ve found that (some, not all) lower levels players literally can’t see faster paced serves and end up making bad calls.
 

ChrisRF

Hall of Fame
In my club we had all kinds of players in that regard. Some (including myself) were always fair and conceded any point they didn’t win regularly. With some others it depended on the score a bit. Nobody cheated as my partner though, because they all knew before starting that I wouldn't allow it and call them out.

But then, there were also those who were openly unfair. I even know some adults who adviced young boys to be "clever" and show the opponents wrong ball marks etc. The worst was someone who deliberately created some marks closely behind the baseline to show them to the opponent after he hits closely in.

I hate it, but you cannot do much against this stuff when standing on the other side of the court.

But I must say the teenagers are quite fair today. That’s partly because they are not that interested in winning these days, but still it’s a positive thing.

On the other hand there are some doubles players who are over 60 or even 70 years old and are always friendly sitting together and drinking beer after playing, but they cheat each other badly during the match.
 
On the other hand there are some doubles players who are over 60 or even 70 years old and are always friendly sitting together and drinking beer after playing, but they cheat each other badly during the match.
Yup, as the match goes on they get more and more revved up eventually exploding into a crescendo of yelling at each other for five minutes--fun to watch from the next court waiting for the group meltdown.

Worst cheating I remember was a club match--mother cheating her own daughter, but they did deserve each other.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
Played social tennis today. Opponent hit ball that was near baseline center hash, too high for either of us to reach. I was in deuce court in NML, near baseline, staring at the baseline because I had no play on the ball. Partner was in middle of service box. I called it out. She overruled me.

Was she right? I don't think so. I was closer to where the ball landed, I was looking right at it, and I saw space. I imagine that from where she stood, she did not see space because she was farther away and the angle was unfavorable for her. She didn't see space, so she thought it caught, I suppose.

If the situation were reversed, I would not have overruled because my partner was in better position and was standing right there watching. If my partner were scrambling, however, then I would overrule because I would have the better look at the ball even from farther away. I go with my partner's calls when they are in better position than me unless I have some good reason to think they are wrong.

But hey. She made a bad call. We gave up the point. Whatever.
Or, she saw it clearly land on the line, and while you thought you saw space you were wrong.
Happens to all of us.
There have been calls where I had a good look and was convinced I saw space but then after checking the mark (on clay) realized that the ball caught the line.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
I have to 100% no-mistake crystal clear see it as a wrong call, but in that case, I tell my partner he's wrong and ask him to overrule his own call. If he would refuse, I'd overrule it anyway, but that has never happened. People aren't trying to cheat and will acquiesce when told they made a mistake.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
This was a 7.0 mixed league, she’s a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. I promise I’m not bragging, but I serve well over a 100 mph and I’ve had my serve called out simply because my opponent’s didn’t see it...
You were serving 100+ mph in a 7.0 mixed league? First, I don’t believe you. Second, if true, were you trying to hurt someone? There is no reason for that.
 

jsm1373

Rookie
You were serving 100+ mph in a 7.0 mixed league? First, I don’t believe you. Second, if true, were you trying to hurt someone? There is no reason for that.
First, have you seen TagUrIt serve? 100mph isn't unrealistic, even for an amateur. Second, are you saying there's no reason to hit hard, except to hurt someone?? Headhunting at 100mph is one thing but if the ball is legally in play there's no such thing as too hard. Maybe you should stand further back or move down a level if the opponent's pace is an issue.
 

jsm1373

Rookie
Yup! In rec tennis and pro-ams, you can get stuck with partners with dubious vision, the give-back point is a way of evening up the score without embarrassment to the perp and disruptions.
Agreed, and in cases where my partner doesn't take kindly to being overruled, I'll very obviously dump the next point as payback. Sends a clear message to all three other players. And try to not partner with that person again...
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
First, have you seen TagUrIt serve? 100mph isn't unrealistic, even for an amateur. Second, are you saying there's no reason to hit hard, except to hurt someone?? Headhunting at 100mph is one thing but if the ball is legally in play there's no such thing as too hard. Maybe you should stand further back or move down a level if the opponent's pace is an issue.
Would love to see the reaction when a 3.0 female gets hit in the face with a 100+ mph serve.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
You were serving 100+ mph in a 7.0 mixed league? First, I don’t believe you. Second, if true, were you trying to hurt someone? There is no reason for that.
The whole point of this thread was about line calls and integrity. That’s why I shared my experience in this last post. It wasn’t to impress anyone with my serve speed. Whenever I play, it’s never my intention to hurt anyone m/f serve or otherwise. I can place my serve pretty accurately, I didn’t serve a body serve to his female partner, I would always give her a wide or T serve. (My male opponent certainly wasn’t taking it easy on my female partner either)

I also play in a 8.0 mixed league, I play against guys that are 4.0-5.0. What I’ve learned about myself, is that when I start altering my game to the level of my opponent, my game suffers. Whether you believe I can serve 100 mph serve or not, that’s on you. It’s not impossible and I have nothing to prove here.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
You’re playing doubles and your partner calls a ball out that you clearly saw in. (could be a serve, line call, etc) Do you go with your partner’s call or do you speak up, go against your partner and call it in.
Correct the call.
Always.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I have definitely seen 4.0's serve well over 100, why is this surprising
How do you know? You had a radar gun out there? Lots of people think that anything “really fast” must be over 100mph. Ask the guys at the USTA Orlando national tennis center who see guys coming there all the time to hit on the play sight courts. Adult rec players serving 100+ is uncommon even at 4.5 and 5.0.
 
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