Morality/Sportsmanship Question

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
How do you know? You had a radar gun out there? Lots of people think that anything “really fast” must be over 100mph. Ask the guys at the USTA Orlando national tennis center who see guys coming there all the time to hit on the play sight courts. Adult rec players serving 100+ is uncommon even at 4.5 and 5.0.
I’m not sure why this topic has you so riled up, but there are plenty of recreational players that can serve 100+ mph serves. I don’t just assume my serve is 100 mph, I wouldn’t make a statement like that without actually knowing it. I’ve confirmed it with my Courtmatics tennis dampener and also my In and Out line calling machine. My highest serve has been clocked at 118mph. I shouldn’t have to, but the next time I practice my serve I’ll be sure to post pictures or video as proof.(y)

Again, that’s not what this thread was supposed to be about. :cautious:
 

CHtennis

Rookie
How do you know? You had a radar gun out there? Lots of people think that anything “really fast” must be over 100mph. Ask the guys at the USTA Orlando national tennis center who see guys coming there all the time to hit on the play sight courts. Adult rec players serving 100+ is uncommon even at 4.5 and 5.0.
That is fair, I do not have a radar gun out there, but I have gotten my serve clocked a number of times, so I "feel" like I can tell about what people are serving at. 100 is pretty fast but not unattainable especially when you do not have a minimum percentage that you are trying to hit. I dont think it is real common at 4.0 but from what I have seen there are some that it seems like they can regularly hit about 100. I would actually think that hitting a 100 mph flat serve at 3.0 would be easier for them to handle than a heavy spin serve.
 

jsm1373

Rookie
How do you know? You had a radar gun out there?
YES. I have seen rec 4.0ish players clock triple digits on an actual radar gun purchased by a fellow player... Skeptical?? Google "Amazon radar gun" and you will see many choices costing less than a new racquet. With Amazon Prime and a credit card, you too can have one and check your speed. Nothing about the rating system says if you hit X MPH serve you have to move up. I know a few players who can occasionally hit 100+ on flat serves but couldn't win 50% of 4.0 matches in SoCal.

But, again - the original post was - do you correct a partner and my $0.02 is yes... Then obviously donate the next point if they argue with you and demand to keep the point.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Putting my money where my mouth is, I’d had a mixed doubles match today. The team we were playing against, the guy had a big serve. He served a wide serve with a lot of pace to my partner and she called it wide. I clearly saw that it clipped the line. She immediately called it out, I said no partner the serve was good. She said “no it was wide” I told her again, no it was just a really good wide serve and the caught the outer edge of the line. She believed me and we continued play. The thing about it is even if even if she still protested (which she didn’t) we would had still lost the point because of the conflict of the call. After the game, the guy thanked me for the call. I said it’s the only way to play.
Well . . . It would take a lot for me to overrule my partner on whether a wide serve caught the outer edge of the line. I mean, you're essentially saying you saw no space between the line and the ball. Well, you're in poor position, so there may have been space but you may have been in poor position to see it. Now, if your partner was lunging, I'd feel differently. But I generally won't overrule my partner on center line service calls or wide service calls if they were in better position than me (that is, not lunging or scrambling). How can I be certain there is not space I cannot see?

Most of my overrules of partners are when they are calling a line I am in better position to see; they call it out; I saw it in. I won't let that stand, and I hope they will learn from their error.
 

jsm1373

Rookie
Well . . . It would take a lot for me to overrule my partner on whether a wide serve caught the outer edge of the line. I mean, you're essentially saying you saw no space between the line and the ball. Well, you're in poor position, so there may have been space but you may have been in poor position to see it. Now, if your partner was lunging, I'd feel differently. But I generally won't overrule my partner on center line service calls or wide service calls if they were in better position than me (that is, not lunging or scrambling). How can I be certain there is not space I cannot see?

Most of my overrules of partners are when they are calling a line I am in better position to see; they call it out; I saw it in. I won't let that stand, and I hope they will learn from their error.
That's a great point... Overrule when you have the proper angle to do so. Google "parallax error" to understand how from some angles make you more susceptible to a making a bad call. I've already seen in many times just in this 2020 ATP Cup's challenges... The best players in the world can still challenge a 3" out ball when at a bad angle.
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
For me overrules have a different "burden of proof" than normal line calls. For a normal call, I call it IN unless I am convinced the ball is OUT. If my partner calls a ball OUT, I support their call unless I am convinced that it is IN. If I wasn't in a good position to call that line, then it would have to be well IN to convince me they were wrong.

Now... If you KNOW that a ball was IN but you let your partner's OUT call stand, you cheated. They may simply have made a mistake. Throwing the next point, while a step in the right direction, does not fix this - it just brings things back to even.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Well . . . It would take a lot for me to overrule my partner on whether a wide serve caught the outer edge of the line. I mean, you're essentially saying you saw no space between the line and the ball. Well, you're in poor position, so there may have been space but you may have been in poor position to see it.
I consider myself to be a competitive person, I’m not in the habit of giving points away. I wouldn’t have overruled my partner unless I was a 100% sure. I saw his serve, my partner was wrong, plain and simple. I don’t understand why you would question my call, my positioning, etc. You weren’t there, you’re speculating based off of what you think could have happened. Bad Cindysphinx Bad!!:p
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Hey, I took you at your word on the 100 mph serve thing. That oughta count for something!

Seriously, you struck a nerve there. I remember many years ago I was playing mixed and my partner was receiving. I was parked on the service line, calling the line. The serve was deep. My partner returned it and said, "No, that was in. Take two." (This was back in the day when you didn't lose the point for changing your team's call.) It felt like a bit of a jerk move, honestly: "I'm the big bad 4.0, and the little lady here is too addled to be trusted to call the service line when she's standing right there looking at it."

I was annoyed. How can he be 100 percent sure there was no space? We've all watched singles players calling their own lines, and they play a lot of serves that are deep because they just don't have a good angle. Look. If I tell my partner to call the service line for me, I'm going with her call. There are lots of times when I think the ball might have caught, but she calls it out. There's no way I can say she was wrong, so I don't.

If I really had a problem with a partner and did not trust her to call my service line, I would tell her not to and call it myself.

And I often tell new partners that I'll call the service line and they should call the center and sideline. The center line is particularly hard for me to call because I stand near the T when my partner receives, so I am getting out of the way if the ball heads toward the T. I am not in good position to see and am not stationary. So I don't call that line and my partner had better call it out or play it and not look to me.

Cindy -- who feels like some partners are daydreaming while calling the service line because some of those serves looked awfully deep to her, but who doesn't call them out if her partner doesn't
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Hey, I took you at your word on the 100 mph serve thing. That oughta count for something!

Seriously, you struck a nerve there. I remember many years ago I was playing mixed and my partner was receiving. I was parked on the service line, calling the line. The serve was deep. My partner returned it and said, "No, that was in. Take two." (This was back in the day when you didn't lose the point for changing your team's call.) It felt like a bit of a jerk move, honestly: "I'm the big bad 4.0, and the little lady here is too addled to be trusted to call the service line when she's standing right there looking at it."

I was annoyed. How can he be 100 percent sure there was no space? We've all watched singles players calling their own lines, and they play a lot of serves that are deep because they just don't have a good angle. Look. If I tell my partner to call the service line for me, I'm going with her call. There are lots of times when I think the ball might have caught, but she calls it out. There's no way I can say she was wrong, so I don't.

If I really had a problem with a partner and did not trust her to call my service line, I would tell her not to and call it myself.

And I often tell new partners that I'll call the service line and they should call the center and sideline. The center line is particularly hard for me to call because I stand near the T when my partner receives, so I am getting out of the way if the ball heads toward the T. I am not in good position to see and am not stationary. So I don't call that line and my partner had better call it out or play it and not look to me.

Cindy -- who feels like some partners are daydreaming while calling the service line because some of those serves looked awfully deep to her, but who doesn't call them out if her partner doesn't
I definitely rely on my partner to call the service line when I'm receiving. The ball coming towards you blocks your view of the line on very close calls, which is why singles players play a number of out serves. I would never overrule a serve like that unless I saw it inside the line, which I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the serve in question here was clearly not inside the line.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Right. There is room for error. Which is one reason why position matters. A person in a poor position really shouldn’t be overruling someone in better position who is looking right at it. And this was a lob, so high and slow.
hmmm....the OP (or the topic) clearly stated the premise that "you clearly saw in.".

None of us is a pro recreational player or a specialist of any kind. Don't make it too complicated. Go with the laymen's convention, sight, understand. Saw in, say in.



Going with poor position is opening a can of worms. When you wanna win and you're smart you'll come up fast with all sorts of reasoning via position, timing, etc. If the simplest thing as SIGHT cannot be agreed on, good luck with the position argument.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I think it's important to note here, most rec players don't have a good conception of when they have a good/bad angle or position to make a call from. Especially at and below 4.0
Most rec players don't invest that much into tennis, especially at and below 4.0.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Most rec players don't invest that much into tennis, especially at and below 4.0.
I can only speak for myself. I was literally just bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0.

At the 3.5 level I did and still do something tennis related EVERYDAY. I think anyone that is ambitious and wants to improve their game has to take initiative.
 

chic

Professional
I can only speak for myself. I was literally just bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0.

At the 3.5 level I did and still do something tennis related EVERYDAY. I think anyone that is ambitious and wants to improve their game has to take initiative.
Right, but have you taken the time to learn or be taught about the human eye/ brain in terms of how they pertain to calling lines.

It's tennis knowledge, but not necessarily improvement type stuff.

I had a coach go through it because he was very doubles focused (since that's important at d3) and @Cindysphinx seems to have above level tennis knowledge based on other threads I've seen.

Most rec players don't know this stuff at least till 4.5 or probably higher, and they don't have a good reason or resource to learn it anyway.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I can only speak for myself. I was literally just bumped up from 3.5 to 4.0.

At the 3.5 level I did and still do something tennis related EVERYDAY. I think anyone that is ambitious and wants to improve their game has to take initiative.
Well, good for you.

But there're so many much lower-hanging fruits in 4.0 and below to pick than this position-based line calling "technique".

You know, I am simply thankful for HONEST opponents, never mind their accuracy. I can absolutely get along with and take anything HONEST players dish out, even if their sight is absolutely bad. I have often told my peers not to expect pro-level sight and quickness from a 3.5 player. Think about that.
 

Strawbewwy

Rookie
In NJ there's a relatively famous "cheating" team that everyone avoids like the plague, their players are very much like the person who runs the club, most of the time short tempered, or just simple... rude; okay i'm actually being very nice in wording here. lol

On their team, there are... 2? guys who are actually decent, and one time when we played, my ball was clearly in (the receiver was standing -on- the baseline, the ball landed right in front of his feet), he missed his swing and called it out, his team mate (one of the decent guys) called it in and tried to overrule his partner... and it escalated really quickly that my team mate and I jumped in to give them the point before the decent guy nearly got beat up lol
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
In NJ there's a relatively famous "cheating" team that everyone avoids like the plague, their players are very much like the person who runs the club, most of the time short tempered, or just simple... rude; okay i'm actually being very nice in wording here. lol

On their team, there are... 2? guys who are actually decent, and one time when we played, my ball was clearly in (the receiver was standing -on- the baseline, the ball landed right in front of his feet), he missed his swing and called it out, his team mate (one of the decent guys) called it in and tried to overrule his partner... and it escalated really quickly that my team mate and I jumped in to give them the point before the decent guy nearly got beat up lol
LOL, at what level, and is it Eastern NJ or Middle States NJD? I've never had that experience playing in NJ.
 

saiclone

New User
This is a slightly different question, but would you call your partner's serve out on behalf of the receivers?
 

chic

Professional
This is a slightly different question, but would you call your partner's serve out on behalf of the receivers?
The first serve - never:
Technically if you call out and they thought it was in they can claim a hindrance. The logic being that you were just seeing them line up for a big return and called a ball that wasn't on your side of the net. I will confirm that it's out if they're uncertain and it's not league/tourney.

On second serve - if I'm playing recreationally, sure. If I'm in tourney, less likely but maybe on clay if there's a mark.

In general my policy on serve is that if my serve was fast enough that they couldn't tell I still earned the point.

In doubles there's a second guy just there to watch, who should be in decent position to see if the balls deep. Meanwhile the receiver should be able to call wide serves with relative ease, especially knowing his partner will call deep balls that are close.

This is different than in the point where the netman may have a better view than the opposing team and it's usually angle of visibility, not speed or spin, making the call difficult.

Tldr: no, don't call your partners serves out (unless you're confirming bc the other team is uncertain). Other shots feel free to forfeit the point if it's out, after the serve.
 

kevrol

Hall of Fame
The first serve - never:
Technically if you call out and they thought it was in they can claim a hindrance. The logic being that you were just seeing them line up for a big return and called a ball that wasn't on your side of the net. I will confirm that it's out if they're uncertain and it's not league/tourney.

On second serve - if I'm playing recreationally, sure. If I'm in tourney, less likely but maybe on clay if there's a mark.

In general my policy on serve is that if my serve was fast enough that they couldn't tell I still earned the point.

In doubles there's a second guy just there to watch, who should be in decent position to see if the balls deep. Meanwhile the receiver should be able to call wide serves with relative ease, especially knowing his partner will call deep balls that are close.

This is different than in the point where the netman may have a better view than the opposing team and it's usually angle of visibility, not speed or spin, making the call difficult.

Tldr: no, don't call your partners serves out (unless you're confirming bc the other team is uncertain). Other shots feel free to forfeit the point if it's out, after the serve.
The code requires you to call it out if it's out and the opponent misses the call. Only exception is on a first serve.
 
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This thread has two good things in it. FIrst off, the questioning of the 100mph serve. Man the forums bring out so many "wait this is my experience and what was just posted doesn't jibe with my reality, I must share my experience regardless of the topic flow!". Talk to the guys in orlando about the rec players that come there and claim to serve 100mph but aren't really, that's a huge leap in logic to compare these two things. It's a classic I've seen and known these things, maybe I'm special or knowledgeable, what this guys says can't be true, I have to warn everyone!

Not to pick on the one poster, I do understand that sometimes outlandish things are said on the forums, but the 100mph serve wasn't that crazy.

Anyway, I always correct the call to the truth. Part of it is ego, I think I see better than everyone, probably false pride. I also am the victim more often than not of questionable calls, because of a big serve, stanky topspin, and lobs that hit near the baseline. I want the benefit of the doubt returned to me and it really does pay off pretty often if the opponent witnesses you overrule a bad call.

I noticed some people don't like to play again with various partners based on this conflict. I wouldn't want to play with someone who makes bad calls consistently, but I don't mind playing with various personalities, even ones that might seem irritated if I correct a call. One aspect of doubles I like is finding ways to get the best out of different partners with different personalities and temperaments. I love tennis, so my partner isn't something I'm that choosy about, I prefer variety and like learning the personalities of various people and what their tennis personality is (needs encouragement, needs silence, likes to chat to relax, etc.). I get it though if a particular player cheats or is uncomfortably bad at calling, that would have to be addressed.
 

blakesq

Hall of Fame
How do you know? You had a radar gun out there? Lots of people think that anything “really fast” must be over 100mph. Ask the guys at the USTA Orlando national tennis center who see guys coming there all the time to hit on the play sight courts. Adult rec players serving 100+ is uncommon even at 4.5 and 5.0.
I am 4.0 player. I serve at about 300 mph. My rotator cuff is registered as a lethal weapon in 20 states.
 

Heck

Rookie
So tonight I played mixed with a partner that does not have much match experience. The har tru was brushed but the lines were not dusted.
I told the home court player that maybe we should clean the lines but he said it was ok lol. This is 6.0 match by the way. So I overruled 4 line calls
my partner made. She is not a cheater and a very fair and sweet person but she had trouble seeing the lines. The courts were very dry and light gray
and the lines blended in. The other team must have been in shock I did that but one was super clear in and another smacked the tape and could be heard.
My partner did not get upset with me but she said she just stop making close calls and played the ball. We won easy so it did not affect the match score.

Now in 8.0 I did that and my partner who is higher rated and I got a talking to at the changeover lol. It was a practice match with teammates also lol.
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
This was a 7.0 mixed league, she’s a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. I promise I’m not bragging, but I serve well over a 100 mph and I’ve had my serve called out simply because my opponent’s didn’t see it. I’ve found that (some, not all) lower levels players literally can’t see faster paced serves and end up making bad calls.
Why are you hitting 100+ mph serves at a 3.0 lady?
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Why are you hitting 100+ mph serves at a 3.0 lady?
Because I can and I want to win. It sounds like you just read what you wanted to see. My partner was a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. The other team was a 3.5 male and 3.5 female combo. My male opponent did not serve my 3.0 partner any easy serves, so why should I take it easy on his partner? I’ve actually played a match with his partner before and she can handle high paced serves. As I stated in another post, my game suffers whenever I try to play down to the ability of my opponent. Additionally as I previously said, it’s never my intention to hurt anyone male or female. I can place my serve where I want it to go, so she received T-serves and wide serves. I didn’t give her any body serves. This forum can be so frustrating at times, everyone here is effing expert on something, negative Nancy or has some smart asssss comment to say. In this thread alone I get called out on whether or not I can serve 100 mph. I posted photos (which I shouldn’t have had to do) to prove that I can and where’s the person who posted the comment of disbelief now? Instead of manning up and saying yeah it’s possible for a 4.0 to serve a 100 mph serve, you were right and I was wrong. That poster quietly slipped away from this thread. Now I’m being questioned as to why I served a 100mph? You can’t win in this place! It’s almost comical and enough to say screw it im out of here. However, I won’t let a few people discourage me from talking tennis with fellow tennis enthusiasts.

End of rant
 

pabletion

Hall of Fame
You’re playing doubles and your partner calls a ball out that you clearly saw in. (could be a serve, line call, etc) Do you go with your partner’s call or do you speak up, go against your partner and call it in.
Geeeeeezzz... I had to correct my partner, but it was at like the third time, where I've had it:

I played a club doubles tournament with this gut who has ALWAYS been kind of dodgy with line calls, its just a REALLY BAD HABIT he has grown with and everyone at the club knows this. We reached the final, playing pretty well, we actually complement each other, Im a baseliner, two hbh, heavy groundstrokes, hes a slicer dicer with a flat fh, good to really good touch and feel.

Anyways, we play against these two young guys early 20's, really nice guys, and he starts making questionable line calls, on serves, deep balls.... And yeah, hes my partner and most of the time hes got the better look, so I back him up. But it starts to become too obvious and often. Im receiving and he calls a clearly in ace out, which was a deciding point; so at that time Ive had it. Intentionally dump the 2nd serve return in the net, and Im feeling really uncomfortable, the other guys are uncomfortable as well. I just dont wanna win a final match this way.

Then were playing a point, hes at net, Im on the baseline, the other team sends a heavy topspin ball towards the middle of the baseline which lands A FOOT IN. He proceeds to call it out when Im right besides the ball and had a play, AND actually hit it back. The other team politely complains like "noooo, come on that looked way in...." and they know I know so they turn to me and just go "dude?".

So I at that point had to give them the point: "yeah that was in".

Cherry on top: in the next changeover my partner complains to me: " hey that ball was out you have to back me up!". I was done: "It was CLEARLY IN, youre wrong, I cant back you up on that ball".

Glad we didnt win that final (lost in three), the guy ruined it for me with his cheating. I dont back up cheaters!

Sidenote: hes asked me to hit or play in numerous occasions, have been busy all of those times.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
ALWAYS been kind of dodgy with line calls, its just a REALLY BAD HABIT he has grown with and everyone at the club knows this.
I have a feeling, if people hadn’t tolerated his bad line calls he wouldn’t think it was okay to play in this fashion. Making bad line calls just diminishes the sport, unfortunately some think it’s okay.
 

roadto50

New User
Because I can and I want to win. It sounds like you just read what you wanted to see. My partner was a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. The other team was a 3.5 male and 3.5 female combo. My male opponent did not serve my 3.0 partner any easy serves, so why should I take it easy on his partner? I’ve actually played a match with his partner before and she can handle high paced serves. As I stated in another post, my game suffers whenever I try to play down to the ability of my opponent. Additionally as I previously said, it’s never my intention to hurt anyone male or female. I can place my serve where I want it to go, so she received T-serves and wide serves. I didn’t give her any body serves. This forum can be so frustrating at times, everyone here is effing expert on something, negative Nancy or has some smart asssss comment to say. In this thread alone I get called out on whether or not I can serve 100 mph. I posted photos (which I shouldn’t have had to do) to prove that I can and where’s the person who posted the comment of disbelief now? Instead of manning up and saying yeah it’s possible for a 4.0 to serve a 100 mph serve, you were right and I was wrong. That poster quietly slipped away from this thread. Now I’m being questioned as to why I served a 100mph? You can’t win in this place! It’s almost comical and enough to say screw it im out of here. However, I won’t let a few people discourage me from talking tennis with fellow tennis enthusiasts.

End of rant
Are you claiming you can serve 100 MPH period? Or you can place a 100 MPH serve consistently where you want? Very different. Former is completely possible at any level. The latter is not.
 

jm1980

G.O.A.T.
Because I can and I want to win. It sounds like you just read what you wanted to see. My partner was a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. The other team was a 3.5 male and 3.5 female combo. My male opponent did not serve my 3.0 partner any easy serves, so why should I take it easy on his partner? I’ve actually played a match with his partner before and she can handle high paced serves. As I stated in another post, my game suffers whenever I try to play down to the ability of my opponent. Additionally as I previously said, it’s never my intention to hurt anyone male or female. I can place my serve where I want it to go, so she received T-serves and wide serves. I didn’t give her any body serves. This forum can be so frustrating at times, everyone here is effing expert on something, negative Nancy or has some smart asssss comment to say. In this thread alone I get called out on whether or not I can serve 100 mph. I posted photos (which I shouldn’t have had to do) to prove that I can and where’s the person who posted the comment of disbelief now? Instead of manning up and saying yeah it’s possible for a 4.0 to serve a 100 mph serve, you were right and I was wrong. That poster quietly slipped away from this thread. Now I’m being questioned as to why I served a 100mph? You can’t win in this place! It’s almost comical and enough to say screw it im out of here. However, I won’t let a few people discourage me from talking tennis with fellow tennis enthusiasts.

End of rant
This place isn't some hivemind where everyone has the same opinions. Different people might find different things questionable. I personally find hitting 100 mph serves at 3.0/3.5 women questionable.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
This place isn't some hivemind where everyone has the same opinions. Different people might find different things questionable. I personally find hitting 100 mph serves at 3.0/3.5 women questionable.
I'm a 3.5 woman, and I don't mind if a 4.0 guy serves 100 mph at me.

The reason is that I don't believe a 4.0 guy can serve consistently at 100 mph AND hit the corners. If he is just hitting 100 mph flat right to me without great placement, that's fine. I will stand back a bit and loft it back. And if he is going to miss most of them and hit an easy second serve, even better.

Now, if he is going to serve 75 mph with wicked slice and/or topspin, or if he is going to S&V behind a spinny serve, I will be very challenged all night long.
 
We brought a radar gun to my club and clocked all the big serving 4.5's and 5.0's. everyone decided the gun must be broken as no one could server over 100. Most were in the 80's.

A guy from the local college team came over and said he could serve "around 115". We let him warm up and his server was an entirely different animal. The gun measured his serve at 114 - 116.

I have never seen a 4.0 serve at 100 mph. I have been a 4.5 for 20 years and I can't remember any of them serving 100 mph. I have seen one or two 5.0's who could server 100 mph and they soon were moved to 5.5.

My son played D1 for a top 50 team and he could server 100+. None of my 4.5 friends can return his first server and few can return his second server.

This forum is notorious for over rating the abilities of USTA players
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
Are you claiming you can serve 100 MPH period? Or you can place a 100 MPH serve consistently where you want? Very different. Former is completely possible at any level. The latter is not.
I’m not claiming anything, I can and I have. I don’t post things that aren’t true. I don’t have an overinflated ego and I don’t need to brag about my serve or anything else for that matter.

This place isn't some hivemind where everyone has the same opinions. Different people might find different things questionable. I personally find hitting 100 mph serves at 3.0/3.5 women questionable.
You’re entitled to your opinions, but just because you disagree doesn’t make you right and me wrong and vice versa.

We brought a radar gun to my club and clocked all the big serving 4.5's and 5.0's. everyone decided the gun must be broken as no one could server over 100. Most were in the 80's.

A guy from the local college team came over and said he could serve "around 115". We let him warm up and his server was an entirely different animal. The gun measured his serve at 114 - 116.

I have never seen a 4.0 serve at 100 mph. I have been a 4.5 for 20 years and I can't remember any of them serving 100 mph. I have seen one or two 5.0's who could server 100 mph and they soon were moved to 5.5.

My son played D1 for a top 50 team and he could server 100+. None of my 4.5 friends can return his first server and few can return his second server.

This forum is notorious for over rating the abilities of USTA players
So just because you’ve never seen a 4.0 serve 100 mph that must make it true right? Some of the people on this board are just ridiculous. I already posted photographic evidence of my serve speed in post #53, but maybe you missed that. Again people read what they see.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
The thing about serve speed is that it depends a lot about how it is measured - where the radar gun is placed and where it's actually measuring the speed. The same person can have quite different measured speeds depending on the measuring methodology.

As far as 4.0 serve speed vs 4.5... there's nothing magical that as soon as you get promoted to 4.5 you suddenly gain mph on your serve. So if it's believable that a 4.5 can hit 100mph, then so can a 4.0.
 
So just because you’ve never seen a 4.0 serve 100 mph that must make it true right? Some of the people on this board are just ridiculous. I already posted photographic evidence of my serve speed in post #53, but maybe you missed that. Again people read what they see.
I am not sure how to interpret your statement here.

It is true that I have never seen a 4.0 serve 100 mph. I also agree that some of the people on this board are just ridiculous. It is also true that people read what they see.

I did miss your evidence of your serve speed in post #53. That does not change any of the statements I made.
 

Snarf

New User
Hm. Serving practice does not equal match conditions. I haven’t been on a gun, but I can pretty much guarantee that I can’t get to 100 no matter what so more power to you Tag. But I’m also sure that if I just sit there and pound serves, I’m going to hit some in way harder than I could consistently in a match.
 

Snarf

New User
Btw, like some others here, I think that hitting a 100 mph serve at the girl in 7.0 is inappropriate. It is interesting to figure out the rules of engagement in any given mixed match, but that seems over the top regardless of what the other guy is doing. We had a 4.5 on our sectionals 8.0 team last year who got off on that. He will not be back in 2020.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
I’m not engaging in this anymore. I have nothing to prove to anyone here. I don’t need to exaggerate my serve speed or any other skill for that matter. If either of you are ever in the DC/MD/VA let’s play and you can see for yourself what my serve speed is. Have a nice day.
 

Doctah

New User
Putting my money where my mouth is, I’d had a mixed doubles match today. The team we were playing against, the guy had a big serve. He served a wide serve with a lot of pace to my partner and she called it wide. I clearly saw that it clipped the line. She immediately called it out, I said no partner the serve was good. She said “no it was wide” I told her again, no it was just a really good wide serve and the caught the outer edge of the line. She believed me and we continued play. The thing about it is even if even if she still protested (which she didn’t) we would had still lost the point because of the conflict of the call. After the game, the guy thanked me for the call. I said it’s the only way to play.

This was a 7.0 mixed league, she’s a 3.0 and I’m a 4.0. I promise I’m not bragging, but I serve well over a 100 mph and I’ve had my serve called out simply because my opponent’s didn’t see it. I’ve found that (some, not all) lower levels players literally can’t see faster paced serves and end up making bad calls.
i had the same thing happen to me last night but I was the one that called the serve out and my partner overruled the call. We were playing on clay so i walked up to the mark and he was right, it clipped the outer edge of the line. Made me feel terrible that i called it out. Never want to be the guy that makes bad calls.
 

brownbearfalling

Hall of Fame
I would always consult my partner first before making an overrule. The last thing I want to do is ruin the trust between my partner and I. After a brief review we would discuss with the opponents. It sounds like everyone here would (or claim to ;) ) automatically over rule their partner. I think that could embarrass your partner and hurt the communication of your team.
 

Chalkdust

Rookie
I would always consult my partner first before making an overrule. The last thing I want to do is ruin the trust between my partner and I. After a brief review we would discuss with the opponents. It sounds like everyone here would (or claim to ;) ) automatically over rule their partner. I think that could embarrass your partner and hurt the communication of your team.
Why do you think overruling your partner would embarrass them or ruin trust?
We try our best, but inevitably we all make mistakes. Even line judges at the pro level make mistakes, and they are in the perfect position to make the call, and they are not running around focusing on hitting the ball.
If I make a bad call I would much rather be corrected immediately by my partner than have my opponents start questioning our honesty as a team.
Assuming of course it's an unintentional bad call.
If you think your partner is deliberately hooking then yes your concerns are valid, but then you also have much bigger problems.
 

kylebarendrick

Professional
I don't get the value of having "the conference" with your partner about a line call. If I'm your opponent, and if I thought my ball was in, your conference is just going to prove your team was unsure about the line call and it should be my point.

I've also tried to be clear with my partners that I may be wrong with my overrule, but I thought it was good and I couldn't let an out call stand in good conscience.
 
May I suggest some ways to handle this as I consider one of my better skills mentally adjusting to the tone of a match and handling my partner. I think the baseline generic thing you should do first with the highest percentage of benefit to your team is to overrule a bad line call. If your partner has an issue with this, based on body language etc., conference on a changeover and sooth the person. I would explain that you want to win, you want the benefit of the doubt on line calls, and you think it was clearly in or out. If it is super close and you think your partner missed a call, a very close call, and the other team is debating the call, I would say to the other team you didn't see it clearly. This way, the other team will be mad at your partner and not you and sometimes people play very strangely in doubles when they are upset with only one opponent (change tactics, etc.).
You shouldn't navigate these situations by thinking "this is what I would want to have happen, so I'm gonna do this", be more clever about it, feel the flow of the match and think, everything in doubles has small mental consequences, especially rec doubles if the players only play once or twice a week.
I say the baseline generic thing above because you usually receive one and sometimes more than one generous line call(s) in return from the opponents, let a bad line call survive without over-ruling it and I promise you the bad line calls will come back on you two or three fold, it's just petty human nature when there are two opponents, chances are one of them is going to be the type that likes to get revenge for bad line calls by going crazy on calls against you.

In the extreme event your partner goes into a tailspin of mental negativity over being overruled, try to change the subject, talk strategy, something.

Last thing, if you are receiving serve, all bets are off when the depth of the serve is concerned, don't over-rule that, just the ones that are in or out on the sides, let your partner be the judge on serve depth, the chances you will upset your partner are greater and the chances you had a better idea of the depth of the serve are minimal.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
We brought a radar gun to my club and clocked all the big serving 4.5's and 5.0's. everyone decided the gun must be broken as no one could server over 100. Most were in the 80's.

A guy from the local college team came over and said he could serve "around 115". We let him warm up and his server was an entirely different animal. The gun measured his serve at 114 - 116.

I have never seen a 4.0 serve at 100 mph. I have been a 4.5 for 20 years and I can't remember any of them serving 100 mph. I have seen one or two 5.0's who could server 100 mph and they soon were moved to 5.5.

My son played D1 for a top 50 team and he could server 100+. None of my 4.5 friends can return his first server and few can return his second server.

This forum is notorious for over rating the abilities of USTA players
could we frame this post and have it pinned at the top of TTW forum forever? So much truth.
BTW - this is 100% consistent with my own experiments with speed gun measuring serves of recreational, high school seniors going to play college, and current college players. The highest I've ever recorded was 116mph - current D1 player on a so-so middle of the road team. the sound of that was nothing like you hear when recreational player hits. We had 2 upper range 4.5 player + one 5.0 player trying in turn returning his serve. Out of 18 serves 11 were in, collectively those 3 players managed to return in play 3, all three returns were easy sitters for the server, 4 were outright aces, and 4 were service winners. Draw your own conclusions......
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
Always confer with your partner before an overrule. Your opponents will see it and see there is a disagreement. Then you can say to your partner that you saw it in, and we disagreed so we have to give up the point.

It's subtle, but if you are sure your partner was wrong, you're not giving up the point because your partner was wrong and your team is changing a call from out to in. You're giving up the point because you two disagree. No ones feelings should be hurt because you disagreed, and there's no reason to decide who is right.

So yes, have the conference.
 

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
How everyone chooses to conduct and overrule is independent on them and their team. I’m just glad to hear that most would in fact do it.
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
It is amazing how perceptions of calls can differ. Normally, I would trust my partner's call on the baseline if she is right there and I am not.

Except that one time. . . .

My partner was running back to the baseline to chase a lob. I was about the service line, watching and praying the ball would fly long because it was our only hope to win that point. It landed in by about eight inches. Not even close, not on the line, not close to the line. In. So very in.

My (normally quite reliable) partner called it out.

Stunned, I went over to her and said, "Oh, Becky. That ball was way, way in. Like this much [indicating] in. We have to give them that point."

Becky said, "WHAT?!? That ball landed way out here [indicating a spot a good foot behind the baseline]. Look, here's the mark, right here! [Indicates a scuff behind the baseline on a clay court that hasn't been swept all weekend]."

I said something like, "Oh, wow. That's really weird because the ball bounced around here [indicating]. Oh, well. We have to give them the point 'cause they're staring at us now."

Becky continued to fume, and after the match said, "You know, we really can't afford to be giving away points on balls that are way out."

I let it go.
 
It is amazing how perceptions of calls can differ. Normally, I would trust my partner's call on the baseline if she is right there and I am not.

Except that one time. . . .

My partner was running back to the baseline to chase a lob. I was about the service line, watching and praying the ball would fly long because it was our only hope to win that point. It landed in by about eight inches. Not even close, not on the line, not close to the line. In. So very in.

My (normally quite reliable) partner called it out.

Stunned, I went over to her and said, "Oh, Becky. That ball was way, way in. Like this much [indicating] in. We have to give them that point."

Becky said, "WHAT?!? That ball landed way out here [indicating a spot a good foot behind the baseline]. Look, here's the mark, right here! [Indicates a scuff behind the baseline on a clay court that hasn't been swept all weekend]."

I said something like, "Oh, wow. That's really weird because the ball bounced around here [indicating]. Oh, well. We have to give them the point 'cause they're staring at us now."

Becky continued to fume, and after the match said, "You know, we really can't afford to be giving away points on balls that are way out."

I let it go.
I only disagree with one thing: "we have to give them the point" not because they're staring at us but because we disagree on the call. If we conferred and concluded the ball was out, we stand by the call regardless of any staring going on.
 
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