More Talent. Federer or Nadal?

More talent?


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The U.S. has a big military budget because most of the world expects the U.S. to protect them. Who came to Kuwait's rescue when Iraq invaded them in 1990? Who did Western Europe expect to protect them from the evil communists of the U.S.S.R. during the Cold War? Who does Taiwan expect to protect them from China? How about the South Koreans from the North Koreans? How about Japan from the rest of the world? How about Israel from their threatening neighbors? Protecting just about everyone in the world doesn't come cheap. So, no, nobody (except for maybe GW Bush) goes around looking to start wars. If we weren't attacked first on 9/11, we wouldn't even be in Afghanistan. Oh, and "lasting like 1 month"? What are you talking about? We've been fighting in Afghanistan for for OVER 9 YEARS and it's not going to end anytime soon. It's already the longest war the U.S. has ever been in.

LOL, why does the US centric response not surprise me?

The U.S has a big budget because:
- it's a HUUUGE country and you need lots of troops and equipment to properly defend it. Such is the case with other massive countries like China and Russia who have big military budgets, though their tech isn't as advanced. Another big reason the U.S. has such a big military budget because it needs to prepare for future BIG wars. But until those come, it needs to practice its tech(and gain advantages) on smaller countries. Point is you don't need that big of a budget, no matter how large your country is.Take a look at China, it has at least 700 million more people than the U.S, it's a very big country, economically it's starting to catch up but it spends about 500 billion less dollars on military than the U.S. Russia, another classic bad guy for the U.S, can't match U.S economically and spends about 600 billion dollars less on military than U.S. Russia has an army at the same level as the French or German, with a poorer economy to boot yet it's supposed to be a rival to the U.S.

Maybe part of the world expects the US to come to their aid nowadays and in some ways it's natural. It wasn't always that way. US had a minor role in WWI and in WW II they did not act alone, even though he media likes to brainwash americans with this and WW II turns out to be US versus ****'s.

Dilettante's post on this was superb and explained the motivations behind the US's entry in the war. The US was one of the most important allies and provided manpower and resources when it was needed(and she was one of the few countries lucky enough to be far,far away from conflict) but this was a WORLD war and the US acted out for its own interest. F**k it, Romania + Hungary(two medium sized countries from europe) had more soldier losses than the US during the entire war(about 200.000 more), ****'s lost almost 5,5 million soldier, Russia about 9 mil .

Two thirds of the German Army died in the russian offensive not in western or central europe fighting americans. 70% of the Germany Army(divisions) were in the russian offensive and those left in Europe and North Africa were severly lacking men. By the time D-day came, 16 year old boys were entering the German Army and the Wermacht had no way of defending all that territory with dwindling resources(lacked oil for one thing) and manpower.

WW II was decided between ****'s and Soviet Union, with the Allies(including US) coming in third as far as importance was concerned. Just look at the numbers and you will see. Or forget about numbers, let's hear hitler's take on this in 1939: "Everything I undertake is directed against the Russians. If the West is too stupid and blind to grasp this, then I shall be compelled to come to an agreement with the Russians, beat the West and then after their defeat turn against the Soviet Union with all my forces".

Also, the US didn't protect anyone from U.S.S.R, not from E/C Europe anyway. The U.S(and western allies not just U.S.) happily gave away Central and Eastern Europe to commies and their influence(and Russia did their MAJOR part in defeating the ****'s), as a lot of countries from that part of the world fought for the Axis. A line was drawn, US and most of Western Europe, and Russia + Central/Eastern Europe, who fell to communism. To the winner go the spoils. U.S got to rebuild Western Europe for its own purposes and its own terms and become a economic powerhouse with the european economies in ruin and Russia got a boatload of countries under it's influence. So in those years from the Cold war, U.S. was trying to save its own hide should a nuclear war arise, they didn't give a crap about any country in Europe, they just wanted a buffer between them and what they perceived as the communist threat. A lot of people seem to forget that the allies(including U.S.) worked WITH the russians in WW II.

Coming back to more modern days, the U.S. "protects" its friends to gain advantages(strategic ones of course) but most of all to use that budget. The US built up a lot of weaponry because in their history they went through "scares" and now they have to use it on SOMETHING, no matter how pathetic the motivation is. Yeah, the U.S. helped Kuweit against Irak. Nevermind that they were buddies with saddam before. And after that they hanged him. Obama is buddies now with saudis, who have a lot of shady types linked with terrorism but I guess saudi oil and money is fine, no?

Also, the U.S have won the Afghani and Irak wars for a couple of years now. The major cities in Irak fell in a couple of weeks. They breezed through Afghanistan. You can't call the skirmishes that have been going on in the last couple of years wars, especially when the U.S. is THE INVADING FORCE. The U.S. only targets small backwards countries that they can associate with terrorism through media BS and take oil and other resources, or do so to ease the burden on Israel. Let's say tomorrow U.S. says that Kazakchstan is harbouring terrorists. Will anyone not believe them? Nope. It's a small country, who gives a crap about it, right?

I hope you're not really so naive to think that the U.S. is in Afghanistan and Irak to fight terrorism. They want oil resources(before they start to consume their own oil reserves, which is pretty smart IMO) and to ease the pressure on Israel, not to mention sending a message to all would be jew opressors. They didn't find WMD in Irak(ha-ha) and the U.S. government recognized that they went in Irak after hearing about Al Qaeda - Saddam connections from a tortured taliban leader. So they blew up an entire country on a wrong premise. But hey it's U.S., so we let it slide. BTW, why do you think that most of the people in Irak and Afghanistan despise americans, even though most of them didn't like the taliban rule or Saddam regime?

What the U.S. really needs to do is to really blow off steam by engaging in all out war with a large capable nation. She's doing all these skirmishes but they aren't satisfying enough for a country that can blow up the entire world seven times over. But anyway, U.S. seems to be building towards that big war so hooray for that. Let's say they kill all the mofos around Israel. What then? Will they reduce their defence budget? Nope, cause then they have to defend those areas against the evil russians and chinese. Good times ahead...

Closing thought: at one of the NATO(what a pointless organization) meetings, when everybody was high fiving eachother about how awesome they were, Putin came in with this message: The U.S. is building bases closer and closer to our country, meanwhile we have removed most of our bases from other countries, the U.S. continues to arm itself while we have reduced the army budget. Basically the gist of it was that the U.S. was coming closer to Russia, militarily. Now it's easy to say "hey they are just doing that to better defend european countries or israel" but picture it in reverse: how would the U.S. like it if Russia had bases in Cuba and most of the South American countries? Not so much fun, no?

Also, please don't accuse me of anti americanism. I am writing on an american keyboard, on an american invention, the internet, so don't start with that, ok?
 
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^^

Not intending to get involved in the "debate", but the web was an invention of the CERN, Switzerland and not the US. Common misconception
 
That's an embellished view more product of historical myth and propaganda than of a serius analysis. Germany was a threat for its own neighbors, so was the USSR, but USA didn't care when the Germans started to show that threat. The USA main rival was already the USSR, and Hitler was seen as a retaining wall against communism. USA didn't care when Germans decided to invade Poland, Holland, Belgium, Norway, Denmark, France, even whey they tried (and failed) to set an invasion of the UK. They didn't care about China or other Asian territories being also brutally invaded by Japan.

USA entered the war when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, that had absolutely nothing to do with Hitler or Europe. In fact, the Japanese had signed a neutrality treaty with the USSR.

But had Hitler not gone too far attacking the USSR (and had not happened Pearl Harbor), even if Hitler had invaded some countries already, let's face it: US was OK with Hitler (as it was the UK at the beginning, except Churchill). Not the American people who mostly didn't like Hitler, but the government. For USA, Hitler was a way to stop communism BUT when he attacked Russia he unleashed Pandora's Box, and there was a big possibility (as it finally happened) of the USSR counter attacking and heading through western Europe.

Seems like a paradox, but although USA saw USSR (NOT Germany) as the main threat, Germany attacking the USSR was not something the USA really wanted. At first the invasion seemed successful, but it proved unrealistic. The USA knew that if Germany failed invading the USSR, the Russians would turn everything up down.

When the D-Day happened and American troops stepped into Europe (well, after Italy that is), Germany had already screwed itself. The Russians were coming. Of course the Normandy landings quickened Germany's end, but at that point the Russians were encouraged and heading towards Germany.

America hated Germany. Hitler and Roosevelt were virtually enemies far before war broke out. While it was a retaining wall, the thought that Germany would wipe out the capitalisms of Europe and make Europe purely Socialist and Communist (**** and Bolshevik respectively) was not something the United States was looking forward to. The President would have found an excuse whether Pearl Harbor happened or not.

And they did care about the Japanese attacking the Asian countries. I dunno where you learned your history from, but the United States invested heavily in China. The Quarantine Speech was indirectly addressed to Germany, Italy, and Japan.

At BreakPoint, war was what cured the Great Depression, nothing else.
 
^^

Not intending to get involved in the "debate", but the web was an invention of the CERN, Switzerland and not the US. Common misconception

Not really a debate, just some friendly back and forth with BP about some sensitive themes.

I heard about CERN but some people(well most people) still say the web as we know it to be an american invention. Maybe because US made it popular.

It's maybe like with Stefan Odobleja, who was the first to speak about cybernetics and systems thinking in a book published in 1939(in Paris) yet the "formal" father of cybernetics is considered by most the american Norbert Wiener, who published his work 10 years later after Odobleja.
 
I wonder what's all this talk about Fed's so called 'imagination'' that Nadal doesn't seem to have in the eyes of those who keep babbling on about it. When watching Fed in his 'prime' days he hits a lot of forehands very hard in a corner, and then other guy just gets to it, and then Fed hits a forehand very hard in in the other corner, and the other guy can't get to it anymore. But probably the 'imagination' is sometimes he doesn't hit the ball in the other corner, but in the same corner he hit the ball before And then, the other guy runs the wrong way!
And really, nobody else does that..

Nowadays everyone gets to Fed's shots if he hits them left or right, the imagination is also a little less. Because the ball comes back, yes there are guys today that are a little faster than the Roddicks, Safins and Nalbandians back then.

BTW with Nadal 'constantly pounding Fed's BH', it's actually a sign of imagination when you come to think about it.

'Imagination' or' being creative' means nothing in tennis, let's face it. It's all mumbo jumbo. There are patterns that are played millions of times and against certain players you tend to play the one pattern more then the other. And you know what, against some players. you just have to pound their BH to win.
That is, if you have a pretty decent FH.
 
Is this a fact or an opinion?

It is a fact that Federer is more naturally talented.
It is a fact that Nadal cant produce topspin forehands like he does now with wooden rackets.
So from this it is my opinion and Im sure its the majority's opinion that Federer would out guile Nadal.
 
It is a fact that Federer is more naturally talented.
It is a fact that Nadal cant produce topspin forehands like he does now with wooden rackets.
So from this it is my opinion and Im sure its the majority's opinion that Federer would out guile Nadal.

Well, ever heard of a guy named Bjorn Borg? Most succesful player and biggest star of the game in the seventies. With wood, and a game based on topspin and speed. Like a certain Rafael Nadal.
 
It is a fact that Federer is more naturally talented.
It is a fact that Nadal cant produce topspin forehands like he does now with wooden rackets.
So from this it is my opinion and Im sure its the majority's opinion that Federer would out guile Nadal.

It's not a fact that Federer is more talented, it's an opinion.
Also it's not a fact that Federer would beat Nadal with a wooden racket, it's the majority's opinion.

Just because the majority thinks so, it doesn't have to be right.
 
It is a fact that Federer is more naturally talented.
It is a fact that Nadal cant produce topspin forehands like he does now with wooden rackets.
So from this it is my opinion and Im sure its the majority's opinion that Federer would out guile Nadal.

Not that I doubt he would be really good with a wooden racquet, but recall that Federer actually hits with the second most amount of topspin on tour and has the record spin rpm period on a ball from his slice. So he would still need to make large adjustments when playing with a wooden racquet.
 
Not that I doubt he would be really good with a wooden racquet, but recall that Federer actually hits with the second most amount of topspin on tour and has the record spin rpm period on a ball from his slice. So he would still need to make large adjustments when playing with a wooden racquet.

The almighty Fed would adjust, which is a fact.

Nadal on the other hand can't play with a wooden racquet, as he does not have a brain unlike precious. He'd look like he was playing with a basebal- He's hopeless without modern racquet's and modern strings, no?
 
Jim courier said it best a few weeks back. He said he's never seen anyone toy with their game as much as nadal. He also said the reason fed doesn't ever toy with his game is he is a more naturally gifted player than nadal.
 
Its ridiculous this thread has gone on for 18 pages.

And namelessone, your post is awesome and one I fully agree with.
 
It is a fact that Federer is more naturally talented.
It is a fact that Nadal cant produce topspin forehands like he does now with wooden rackets.
So from this it is my opinion and Im sure its the majority's opinion that Federer would out guile Nadal.

Federer won't hit an equivalent FH or serve with a wooden racquet, either

Jim courier said it best a few weeks back. He said he's never seen anyone toy with their game as much as nadal. He also said the reason fed doesn't ever toy with his game is he is a more naturally gifted player than nadal.

I'm sure there are other tennis pros out there who think the exact opposite

Its easily Federer who is more talented, but Nadal has so much more heart. Which is basically why he is 21-10 against him.

People keep throwing the term 'talent' around and never bother to define exactly what it is
 
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The almighty Fed would adjust, which is a fact.

Nadal on the other hand can't play with a wooden racquet, as he does not have a brain unlike precious. He'd look like he was playing with a basebal- He's hopeless without modern racquet's and modern strings, no?

No forget the court gotta be slow too, no?
 
It's not a fact that Federer is more talented, it's an opinion.
Also it's not a fact that Federer would beat Nadal with a wooden racket, it's the majority's opinion.

Just because the majority thinks so, it doesn't have to be right.

Yea well it's not a fact that Kelly Preston is pretty either but then she is. :lol:
 
Roger Federer is the most talented ever, period. That said Rafa Nadal is up there too, certainly the 2nd most talented player of this era IMO (when you take mental and physical both into account).
 
Depends what you mean by talent, physically Nadal is very gifted. He's also underrated in terms of 'classical tennis skills'. He can play alot of shots. He doesn't play most of them as well as Roger though ;)
 
The almighty Fed would adjust, which is a fact.

Nadal on the other hand can't play with a wooden racquet, as he does not have a brain unlike precious. He'd look like he was playing with a basebal- He's hopeless without modern racquet's and modern strings, no?

The same almighty Fed who has yet to adjust to Nadal's game? After eight years? Suddenly he would adjust to playing with a wooden racquet? Heck. He has had trouble adjusting to a slightly larger head of the same racquet he has used for years.

I love Roger. But adaptability is not in his vocabulary and it is the single thing that most depresses his true fans.

His failure to adapt to Nadal is infuriating.
 
When I think of natural talent I think of hand eye coordination, shot variation, etc. When Nadal tries to hit tweeners, half volley pick ups. backhand drop shots etc. it looks awkward and forced. I've also always considered the one handed backhand to be a more skilled shot than the two handed backhand. The two hander was traditionally for women who didn't have the strength.

Nadal can hit some incredible passing shots on the run but you never see him try to improvise the way Federer does. There have been countless times where Federer just hits a ridiculous shot that nobody would even think of. The best example I can think of is that little forehand slice dropper while backing up to his left that he hit on Murray at last year's Wimbledon. That was an absolutely ridiculous shot that I've never even seen before.

You never really see Nadal hug the baseline and pick up half volleys like Federer does. I remember the 06 Masters Cup against Blake where Federer was half volleying Blake's monster forehands for outright winners.
 
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The problem is talent is almost worthless in tennis. It's the simple shots that matter. The serve and the forehand. And the athleticism of a given player.

If it weren't, Fabrice Santoro would've been an all-time great.
 
I wonder what's all this talk about Fed's so called 'imagination'' that Nadal doesn't seem to have in the eyes of those who keep babbling on about it. When watching Fed in his 'prime' days he hits a lot of forehands very hard in a corner, and then other guy just gets to it, and then Fed hits a forehand very hard in in the other corner, and the other guy can't get to it anymore. But probably the 'imagination' is sometimes he doesn't hit the ball in the other corner, but in the same corner he hit the ball before And then, the other guy runs the wrong way!
And really, nobody else does that..

Nowadays everyone gets to Fed's shots if he hits them left or right, the imagination is also a little less. Because the ball comes back, yes there are guys today that are a little faster than the Roddicks, Safins and Nalbandians back then.

BTW with Nadal 'constantly pounding Fed's BH', it's actually a sign of imagination when you come to think about it.

'Imagination' or' being creative' means nothing in tennis, let's face it. It's all mumbo jumbo. There are patterns that are played millions of times and against certain players you tend to play the one pattern more then the other. And you know what, against some players. you just have to pound their BH to win.
That is, if you have a pretty decent FH.

Oh yeah, right...that's why the shots are coming back. Before, Federer used to blast winners past slowpokes like Lleyton Hewitt. Now he has to deal with burners like Berdych, Del Potro, and Tsonga.
 
Oh yeah, right...that's why the shots are coming back. Before, Federer used to blast winners past slowpokes like Lleyton Hewitt. Now he has to deal with burners like Berdych, Del Potro, and Tsonga.

FACT: Federer used to hit his winners harder, sooner, and cleaner in the past. That's why.
 
Depends what you mean by talent, physically Nadal is very gifted. He's also underrated in terms of 'classical tennis skills'. He can play alot of shots. He doesn't play most of them as well as Roger though ;)
i cannot see nole hit those wrong footing down the line forehands on the run like federer does. he even wrong footed nadal in their 2 AO matches
 
Oh yeah, right...that's why the shots are coming back. Before, Federer used to blast winners past slowpokes like Lleyton Hewitt. Now he has to deal with burners like Berdych, Del Potro, and Tsonga.

I was talking about the very top here. Nadal, Djokovic and Murray bring back balls that in those days would have been clean winners for Fed. Fed knows this and eventually goes for too much and misses. Add to that those guys can turn defence in to offence like no player in history before.

Hewiit was fast, but didn't have the shots to trouble Federer. Same goes for Ferrer.
The guys you mention hit the ball harder than anyone including Fed, (well there are some other powerhouses but they are less accurate and that's why they are ranked lower, like Gulbis). When they are on they have the ability to simply outhit/overpower Fed. Which they can't do as easy against the other top 4 guys.
Nowadays, the quality of hitting, athleticism and defense has upped a level.

Point is, in 2004-2007 Federer could outhit anyone not named Nadal (and he already started to struggle a bit against Murray).
Because back then he had the most dominant weapons, not because of some kind of superior 'imagination'.
 
When I think of natural talent I think of hand eye coordination, shot variation, etc. When Nadal tries to hit tweeners, half volley pick ups. backhand drop shots etc. it looks awkward and forced. I've also always considered the one handed backhand to be a more skilled shot than the two handed backhand. The two hander was traditionally for women who didn't have the strength.

Nadal can hit some incredible passing shots on the run but you never see him try to improvise the way Federer does. There have been countless times where Federer just hits a ridiculous shot that nobody would even think of. The best example I can think of is that little forehand slice dropper while backing up to his left that he hit on Murray at last year's Wimbledon. That was an absolutely ridiculous shot that I've never even seen before.

You never really see Nadal hug the baseline and pick up half volleys like Federer does. I remember the 06 Masters Cup against Blake where Federer was half volleying Blake's monster forehands for outright winners.

Sure Federer has made his fairshare of outstanding shots but to make it sound like he's the only one who can pull those off is holding on to a myth that he's somehow unique in that 'shotmaking 'departement. It seems like now that the edge Federer has in achievements is slowly but steadily melting away, Fed fans clinge on to that myth more and more.

Other players are also very much capable of hitting insane shots on the rise.
Djokovic, Agassi, Davydenko ,Mcenroe, Blake , Sampras.. yes, and also Nadal.
Take notice of this point in the last USO match. Djokovic is standing half court and hitting full out for a winner.. and what a moment to come up with that shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2690

Same goes for this one. Great deep return from Djokovic, and mind you, Nadal is moving backwards (he had to because of the depth), taking it right of the bounce and changing direction of the ball. All three things take very high skill. Talk about hand/eye coordination..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2184

And there's nothing awkward or forced about this dropshot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=1885

BTW Djokovic matches that one immediately after that.

Talk about touch, feel, and anticipation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2343

And then there's the myth that Djokovic is a just baseline machine with no feel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2506

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2087

And that's all in the course of little more than a set. It seems some people just don't want to see the brilliance here. But believe me, those guys are as talented as anyone.
 
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I have always thought--if you have an ugly a** forehand, and look like you are hitting off balance most of the time--just like some people would like to claim about Nadal-- but you still manage to hit all the shots in the book, doesn't that make you MORE talented?

But really, Nadal is EXTREMELY talented, and his strokes are very technically solid. A weird talent would be someone like santoro or dolgopolov
 
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Hahahhaa the spin put on the nadal's ugly inefficient injury-prone strokes. :lol:
 
How does one define tennis talent? It's helpful to analyze what constitutes tennis talent. Here are some things to consider:

1. Mobility- Does a player move well and reach tough shots? Great players tend to have great and mobility. Not many great players have even average mobility. Also, consider the ability of a player to hit great shots on the run. What about footwork and the ability to always get in proper position quickly in various spots all over the court?

2. Stamina- Can a player sustain a high level of play and great mobility even after several hours of play? How about playing long matched back to back, which is recovery? That speaks to a certain resilience.

3. Reflexes- Does a player have the ability to handle shots well that are hit right at them with pace? How about the ability to quickly react and reach shots that may seem out of reach to most other players?

4. Racquet speed-Can a player generate great power and spin through high racquet speed?

5. Rallying/Ballstriking - Is a player able to hit the ball solidly and consistently over and over again, without having strokes break down? Hitting screaming winners once in a while and going on hot streaks can be wonderful for a player, but how about sustaining long rallies? How about maintaining consistency over the course of long matches and over the course of entire tournaments? Does a player have the ability to hit those great shots under pressure?

6. Balance off both wings- Does the player have the ability to attack and play well on both sides, not just one side or the other? Opponents should not be able to simply concentrate on one side of an opponent in order to neutralize strengths. A player should be able to consistently attack on both sides.

7. Touch- Does a player have the the ability to lob, drop shot, hit angles, be quickly deceptive, and change pace?

8. Serving - A player does not necessarily have to hit extremely hard serves, Consistency and placement are critical. The ability to hit a great variety of serves is very important , as is the ability to hit great first and second serves. How about the players ability to serve under pressure (break points, big points/match points)?

9. Are you a left handed or right handed? - Nadal is a special case of course, but let's face it, being a lefty is a advantage in tennis. This can be viewed as a talent, just like being born with great physical gifts. So many GREAT players, such as Laver, McEnroe, Vilas, Nadal, Navratilova, Roche, Drobny, Ivanisevic, Seles, Rios, Orantes, and Muster are lefties.

10. Mental Strength/Mental Game- This can be tough to define, but mental strength is critical for a great tennis player. Mental strength is also a talent. Like the rest of this list, it tends to be partly genetic, yet socialization/training also plays a huge role. It takes BOTH. Even the ability to work very hard can be considered a talent. It's a talent that is developed over time.

For example, Jimmy Connors had great mental strength. He was a huge fighter. Yet, it's not that simple. He also had the ability to hit the correct shot at the right time. Jack Kramer, Ken Rosewall, Rafael Nadal and Jimmy Connors are all great in terms of mental strength. Ken Rosewall instinctively knew where to position himself to hit the best possible shot. This is also related to the mental game. Many players just hit away at the ball and really have no logical plan at all. They just go for it and "hope for the best". The truly great ones do that at times as well and of course some are better than others, but they also tend to have plans B, C, and D.

When you look at all these aspects of tennis talent, I think it gives you a framework for evaluating players. It's just not as simple as well, I think player A looks more talented than player B. Well, what exactly does that mean? Player A may be more talented in certain ways than Player B and vice versa. Then, you have to make an assessment as to which player is more talented overall.
 
Haha is this even a question? Nadal is all about physics, Federer is true talent, something you never can teach or practice to be. Magical. Nadal on the other hand you can practice to be like him.

Imagine if you could choose to be Either nadal or Federer, who Would u pick? Simple, Roger. Everybody Would pick talent instead of power.

Federer the best ever! Real goat!
 
Haha is this even a question? Nadal is all about physics, Federer is true talent, something you never can teach or practice to be. Magical. Nadal on the other hand you can practice to be like him.

Imagine if you could choose to be Either nadal or Federer, who Would u pick? Simple, Roger. Everybody Would pick talent instead of power.

Federer the best ever! Real goat!

I'd pick 21-10 :wink:
 
Sure Federer has made his fairshare of outstanding shots but to make it sound like he's the only one who can pull those off is holding on to a myth that he's somehow unique in that 'shotmaking 'departement. It seems like now that the edge Federer has in achievements is slowly but steadily melting away, Fed fans clinge on to that myth more and more.


Other players are also very much capable of hitting insane shots on the rise.
Djokovic, Agassi, Davydenko ,Mcenroe, Blake , Sampras.. yes, and also Nadal
.
Take notice of this point in the last USO match. Djokovic is standing half court and hitting full out for a winner.. and what a moment to come up with that shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2690

Same goes for this one. Great deep return from Djokovic, and mind you, Nadal is moving backwards (he had to because of the depth), taking it right of the bounce and changing direction of the ball. All three things take very high skill. Talk about hand/eye coordination..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2184

And there's nothing awkward or forced about this dropshot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbCLuEXfpM&feature=player_detailpage#t=1885

BTW Djokovic matches that one immediately after that.

Talk about touch, feel, and anticipation :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2343

And then there's the myth that Djokovic is a just baseline machine with no feel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2506

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHbCLuEXfpM#t=2087

And that's all in the course of little more than a set. It seems some people just don't want to see the brilliance here. But believe me, those guys are as talented as anyone.

This is one of the best posts I've seen on this board regarding this subject. Federer does hit some amazing shots, but as you said, so do the others.

I've never understood why people have always insisted that Federer stands alone in that department.

Nadal, Djokovic & Murray deserve way more credit than they get.
 
How does one define tennis talent? It's helpful to analyze what constitutes tennis talent. Here are some things to consider:

1. Mobility- Does a player move well and reach tough shots? Great players tend to have great and mobility. Not many great players have even average mobility. Also, consider the ability of a player to hit great shots on the run. What about footwork and the ability to always get in proper position quickly in various spots all over the court?

2. Stamina- Can a player sustain a high level of play and great mobility even after several hours of play? How about playing long matched back to back, which is recovery? That speaks to a certain resilience.

3. Reflexes- Does a player have the ability to handle shots well that are hit right at them with pace? How about the ability to quickly react and reach shots that may seem out of reach to most other players?

4. Racquet speed-Can a player generate great power and spin through high racquet speed?

5. Rallying/Ballstriking - Is a player able to hit the ball solidly and consistently over and over again, without having strokes break down? Hitting screaming winners once in a while and going on hot streaks can be wonderful for a player, but how about sustaining long rallies? How about maintaining consistency over the course of long matches and over the course of entire tournaments? Does a player have the ability to hit those great shots under pressure?

6. Balance off both wings- Does the player have the ability to attack and play well on both sides, not just one side or the other? Opponents should not be able to simply concentrate on one side of an opponent in order to neutralize strengths. A player should be able to consistently attack on both sides.

7. Touch- Does a player have the the ability to lob, drop shot, hit angles, be quickly deceptive, and change pace?

8. Serving - A player does not necessarily have to hit extremely hard serves, Consistency and placement are critical. The ability to hit a great variety of serves is very important , as is the ability to hit great first and second serves. How about the players ability to serve under pressure (break points, big points/match points)?

9. Are you a left handed or right handed? - Nadal is a special case of course, but let's face it, being a lefty is a advantage in tennis. This can be viewed as a talent, just like being born with great physical gifts. So many GREAT players, such as Laver, McEnroe, Vilas, Nadal, Navratilova, Roche, Drobny, Ivanisevic, Seles, Rios, Orantes, and Muster are lefties.

10. Mental Strength/Mental Game- This can be tough to define, but mental strength is critical for a great tennis player. Mental strength is also a talent. Like the rest of this list, it tends to be partly genetic, yet socialization/training also plays a huge role. It takes BOTH. Even the ability to work very hard can be considered a talent. It's a talent that is developed over time.

For example, Jimmy Connors had great mental strength. He was a huge fighter. Yet, it's not that simple. He also had the ability to hit the correct shot at the right time. Jack Kramer, Ken Rosewall, Rafael Nadal and Jimmy Connors are all great in terms of mental strength. Ken Rosewall instinctively knew where to position himself to hit the best possible shot. This is also related to the mental game. Many players just hit away at the ball and really have no logical plan at all. They just go for it and "hope for the best". The truly great ones do that at times as well and of course some are better than others, but they also tend to have plans B, C, and D.

When you look at all these aspects of tennis talent, I think it gives you a framework for evaluating players. It's just not as simple as well, I think player A looks more talented than player B. Well, what exactly does that mean? Player A may be more talented in certain ways than Player B and vice versa. Then, you have to make an assessment as to which player is more talented overall.

That is so true. Looks alone cannot determine talent. All of the skills that you mentioned must be factored in too.

Using your framework it is easy to see why many who are touted as being "so talented" based on their style do not make it into the higher echelon.

Talent demands that you do all of the listed criteria, simultaneously.

Fabulous post.
 
Haha is this even a question? Nadal is all about physics, Federer is true talent, something you never can teach or practice to be. Magical. Nadal on the other hand you can practice to be like him.

Imagine if you could choose to be Either nadal or Federer, who Would u pick? Simple, Roger. Everybody Would pick talent instead of power.

Federer the best ever! Real goat!

Seriously? You can teach someone to hit at 3,500 rpms?

Sign me up.
 
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