More wrist in serve than ground stroke?
- Thread starter zill
- Start date
zill
Legend
its an important question
Well you've just pushed the question back one layer deeper
Why do you think it's important?
zill
Legend
i already know. A lot more wrist involved in the serve than groundstroke.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
As @Knox appears to be suggesting, you might be better off not dwelling on wrist action.
If you really must know, there is some wrist extension and radial deviation during / after the racket drop phase. (But, if you dwell on this, you might end up with insufficient ESR).This c0cking of the wrist will release during the upward swing to contact.
Not crazy at all about the instruction to "snap the wrist" on the serve. It can be very misleading. When coaches spout this nonsense, they are really referring to a forearm pronation (or pronation + ISR). Sure, the wrist (and, more importantly, the hand) is turned or rotated. But this is not really an articulation of the wrist.
During the upward swing, the wrist moves from a cOcked position to a neutral position. To my mind, yes it is primarily a passive action rather than active one. But some disagree.
Those who dwell on an active or pronounced wrist action will often often end up with the wrist in a pronounced position of flexion (image below). This is not desirable.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Does this all make sense?
Or, RU sorry you asked?
Or, RU sorry you asked?
So you're not asking because you think it's an important question... you're asking because you're seeking validation for things you already know... does that sound about right?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
And oh, btw, I do believe that there is more cowbell on the serve than on a forehand groundstroke.
Last edited:
zill
Legend
in zverev's serve at the start there is clearly wrist snap. its great there is no ball because we get to see what zverev is consciously thinking about the serve.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Amusing.
But NO, not only is this not a real serve, it is not Zverev's actual serve motion either. Look at the way he uses his feet / legs. It looks like a pantomime of the actions of a S&V server from the 1960s or 70s. No jump -- he keeps his left glued to the ground. Quite different from his real (modern) serve motion. He appears to be exaggerating his wrist action as well.
Perhaps this is close to the way he was serving as a young kid. Maybe this is why he pantomimed the serve this way.
For his real serve, Zverev does employ a bit of flexion -- more wrist flexion prior to his trophy than most servers. Sometimes he employs a minor wrist flexion after contact -- unlike most elite servers.
But Alexandr is primarily using a strong pronation of the forearm (and hand) as well as a rotation of the shoulder (ISR). While there is also some action of his wrist it is still not what should be characterized as a wrist snap.
Wrist snap is misleading.
Wrist snap is a myth.
Last edited:
golden chicken
Hall of Fame
After watching players of all levels, I'd say it depends entirely on what techniques you are using for each stroke. You can certainly hit a serve with little wrist movement, and you can hit a forehand with all kinds of wrist.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@zill
For the sake of clarity: only the top 4 actions are actions / articulations of the wrist. It is the forearm that Pronates and Supinates the hand; it's not the wrist that is responsible for these 2 actions.
So, to refer to a vigourous pronation (and ISR) as snapping the wrist is technically & completely incorrect -- as well as misleading.
For the sake of clarity: only the top 4 actions are actions / articulations of the wrist. It is the forearm that Pronates and Supinates the hand; it's not the wrist that is responsible for these 2 actions.
So, to refer to a vigourous pronation (and ISR) as snapping the wrist is technically & completely incorrect -- as well as misleading.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
When we have beliefs about sub motions of tennis strokes we should always provide clear high speed videos to check our ideas and illustrate our points.
To single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEYS and use the ARROW KEYS. The part of the stroke before impact has a job to do and no collision effects have yet occurred. After impact, who knows why things move? Where is the motion of the wrist joint referred to in the thread title? You can count frames before impact to specify the wrist joint action that you are referring to. At 240 fps there are 24 frames in 1/10 of a second and that speed always has to be remembered when things appear in slow motion. Often the wrist joint looks about neutral at impact, but not always. This wrist has some ulnar deviation at impact.
.
To single frame on Vimeo hold down the SHIFT KEYS and use the ARROW KEYS. The part of the stroke before impact has a job to do and no collision effects have yet occurred. After impact, who knows why things move? Where is the motion of the wrist joint referred to in the thread title? You can count frames before impact to specify the wrist joint action that you are referring to. At 240 fps there are 24 frames in 1/10 of a second and that speed always has to be remembered when things appear in slow motion. Often the wrist joint looks about neutral at impact, but not always. This wrist has some ulnar deviation at impact.
Last edited:
zill
Legend
so conclusion is that wrist action plays a big part in the serve?
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
No, wrist action plays a relatively minor role compared to shoulder rotation, forearm rotation, core rotation and other elements of the KC.
Note that I have been coaching for decades, playing for > 45 years and have been studying the biomechanics and physics of tennis since the mid 1980s.
Trust me when I say that you are putting way too much importance on the role of wrist actions. C0CK the wrist, make sure that you employ forearm and shoulder rotations and the appropriate wrist actions will happen w/o conscious effort.
What wrist action? Flexion? Ulnar deviation? Please be specific about what you mean by "wrist action"
I been teaching tennis since 1965 had courses in bio mechanics and physiology of exercise and concur with you entirely
Djokovic says the wrist is one of the most important elements of the serve.
Essentially all the movements of the serve is building up speed to be released at the last second, of which the last motion is the wrist. The leg drive shoulder turn etc become irrelevant/stifled if youre not effectively transferring this power from the wrist to the ball, because this is the most important moment - the moment of impact.
Essentially all the movements of the serve is building up speed to be released at the last second, of which the last motion is the wrist. The leg drive shoulder turn etc become irrelevant/stifled if youre not effectively transferring this power from the wrist to the ball, because this is the most important moment - the moment of impact.
Last edited:
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Wow, you got a few years on me. Started playing tennis at ~21 in the early 1970s. Was teaching my younger brother and a couple of friends a few years later. Back to college in 1980 where I started teaching other students and my buddies.
It was in the 80s that I 1st learned about pronation and realized that the backscratch and wrist snap I had been taught previously (in the 1970s) in both tennis & badminton were flawed concepts.
Somewhat ironically, I first learned abt forearm pronation from Dr James Poole, a top badminton player in the 1950s & 60s. Badminton was, and often still is, mistakenly regarded as a very wristy sport.
In the mid 1960s, Dr Poole published his college thesis saying that the role of the wrist, as a power generator in badminton, had been greatly exaggerated. He maintained that forearm pronation was much more important then wrist actions for overhead shots on the forehand side.
Way ahead of his time, it seemed. It wasn't until the mid 1980s that I finally heard a college tennis coach speak of pronation.
In the 80s and 90s, many tennis & badminton coaches were still promoting wrist snap and a relatively small % were talking about forearm pronation (and supination). Saw this starting to change in the 90s.
Didn't hear much about shoulder rotation (ESR & ISR) from tennis coaches until more recently (a bit more than a decade ago).
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@zill
This has been posted several times in the past decade plus. Novak is just parrotting what he was told as a junior player as he was developing his tennis serve. Novak apparently had not ever really analyzed his own serve. If you actually take a close look at his serve, you will not see anything that qualifies as a wrist snap.
Just because an elite player like Novak can execute strokes at a very high level does not mean they're qualified to teach anyone the proper mechanics of a stroke. Roger Federer has often been asked what grip he uses for his forehand or how he executes certain shots. Roger admits that he doesn't know all these details even tho he can execute them at an extremely highly level.
Ironically, this video of Novak was recorded more than a decade ago -- before he fixed his serve. This was about the time he was around #4 or so in the world. Back then, he had a flaw in his serve motion that I had personally flagged on this forum back around 2008.
No, it was not his wrist action. It was mostly about his low elbow position for the trophy phase of his serve. It wasn't until 2010 that Djokovic had a couple of serving experts rework his flawed serve motion. This was a couple of years after that erroneous serve instruction video from him was recorded & posted
With a change in diet and a new, improved serve, Novak rose to #1 and had a very dominant year in 2011.
I am amused.
This has been posted several times in the past decade plus. Novak is just parrotting what he was told as a junior player as he was developing his tennis serve. Novak apparently had not ever really analyzed his own serve. If you actually take a close look at his serve, you will not see anything that qualifies as a wrist snap.
Just because an elite player like Novak can execute strokes at a very high level does not mean they're qualified to teach anyone the proper mechanics of a stroke. Roger Federer has often been asked what grip he uses for his forehand or how he executes certain shots. Roger admits that he doesn't know all these details even tho he can execute them at an extremely highly level.
Ironically, this video of Novak was recorded more than a decade ago -- before he fixed his serve. This was about the time he was around #4 or so in the world. Back then, he had a flaw in his serve motion that I had personally flagged on this forum back around 2008.
No, it was not his wrist action. It was mostly about his low elbow position for the trophy phase of his serve. It wasn't until 2010 that Djokovic had a couple of serving experts rework his flawed serve motion. This was a couple of years after that erroneous serve instruction video from him was recorded & posted
With a change in diet and a new, improved serve, Novak rose to #1 and had a very dominant year in 2011.
Last edited:
Youre the one calling the movement of the wrist a wrist snap and then shooting it down. What most people see it as is pronation of the wrist. Now you could argue this comes from the forearm but when you pronate the arm you feel it in the form of turning the wrist.
D
Deleted member 771407
Guest
Yeah I'm baffled at Novak calling it a wrist action. It's 100% impossible to have a powerful serve by consciously using the wrist ! When you serve, your entire arm must feel like a spaghetti (or a whip but I like spaghetti better), in particular your wrist ! It must feel like you are throwing your shoulder, or maybe the base of your arm, into the air, and just forget about wrist action or even pronation to be honest, as the right ball toss and feet positioning will achieve it naturally when you aim for the ball.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Boy, are you ever misreading my posts. Try again.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
No, it is the hand and the racket that that is ultimately being turned by the forearm. It is NOT a wrist action.
Please read my posts more carefully. I explicitly state that there are wrist actions involved but labeling them as a wrist snap is fundamentally wrong and misleading
The point is using the wrist can simply mean rotating the wrist i.e pronation.
In the same way you said for the serve you need shoulder rotation. Which part of the shoulder do we rotate for this? Or do you mean the rotating action of the shoulder which most people will take it as what you mean.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Let's not refer to pronation as a wrist action at all. It's misleading and potentially confusing
The problem is that when coaches talk about snapping the wrist, students, more often than not employ an exaggerated wrist flexion.
However, if these same coaches demonstrate the proper action of the forearm (and shoulder) and then correct the students who forcefully flex the wrist because of this flawed instruction, the student might actually get it right.
Problem is that some coaches that use that flawed terminology don't properly show what they really mean. Or the student who has been told to snap the wrist will, in turn, tell their friends or other players to snap the wrist but then don't demonstrate the proper action.
In my 4+ decades of playing and teaching I've lost count of how many times this has happened. It is better not to use that terminology at all.
Don't really understand what you're asking about shoulder rotation. Not talking about torso rotation. But if you look up ESR and ISR, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Many of us have posted images of this a countless number of times already.
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 771407
Guest
But when you say using the wrist it means, well, proactively using it which is the same as saying using the muscles inside the wrist, which I believe is a huge mistake (not to mention very dangerous for your fragile wrist).
Here is my little story : the first time I managed to serve big it came as a revelation to me, tbh it was like 9 years ago and I've been on a long tennis hiatus so I'm still trying to find the sensation back. Maybe the coach was talking about pronation, but I'm pretty sure the only thing I was thinking about at the time was staying lose, and the rhythm, the momentum of going into the trophy pose and unleashing. I barely used my legs and I aced the guy in front of me. And again. And again. He couldn't even touch my serve all of a sudden. We had this game across all 4 courts during my tennis lesson, and the guy who won the game would move up to the next court and reciprocally the loser would go down a court. I kid you not I aced my way to the top. Not a single time did I use my wrist or think about pronating. I could FEEL I was pronating, but it was completely automatic, trying to control the pronation will break the kinetic chain and make you lose all power.
Not only did I manage to hit really hard by staying lose, I was barely using any energy as my legs were used minimally. So that's another thing I disagree with Novak. Maybe for pros who have mastered the body motion of the serve legs become the difference for a few extra mph, but the upper body and the whip motion is where people who have a poor or average serve should focus their effort. Adding some leg drive later isn't even that hard tbh.
Your max speed should happen after contact not at contact P = m a the a is for acceleration which is the rate of change of velocity or speed
mental midget
Hall of Fame
i know i don’t think much about deliberately snapping the wrist, it’s more about staying lose and feeling that uncoil/snap of the whip throughout the whole movement, and avoiding any hitches. i always found it really messes with rhythm when you get hyper focused on one aspect of the shot. see a lot of players do a really deep knee bend for example, of course because it gets talked about...but a lot of the time all they’re really doing is throwing their balance off, like trying to serve after standing up out of a tiny chair.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
@a12345
When we properly set up the racket for the racket drop on the serve, the forearm has been supinated. This supination will stretch the pronator muscles for realease during the upward swing -- that is, pronation.
When we properly drop the racket behind us on the serve, we are externally rotating the shoulder = ESR. This ESR during the drop, stretches the internal rotator muscles. During the upward swing we release this stretch = ISR.
During that upward swing, we are using both forearm pronation & ISR. Many coaches will simply refer to this as pronation. However some experts say that this is technically not correct and ISR is even more important than forearm pronation. But, to my mind, they are both important.
To give you a better idea of ESR, here are a few images that should make this clear
When we properly set up the racket for the racket drop on the serve, the forearm has been supinated. This supination will stretch the pronator muscles for realease during the upward swing -- that is, pronation.
When we properly drop the racket behind us on the serve, we are externally rotating the shoulder = ESR. This ESR during the drop, stretches the internal rotator muscles. During the upward swing we release this stretch = ISR.
During that upward swing, we are using both forearm pronation & ISR. Many coaches will simply refer to this as pronation. However some experts say that this is technically not correct and ISR is even more important than forearm pronation. But, to my mind, they are both important.
To give you a better idea of ESR, here are a few images that should make this clear
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
...................
As you look at Djokovic's picture, ask yourself what his back bend, Thoracic Extension, does to the back muscle, the Latissimus Dorsi (lat). ?
Last edited:
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
So what are your thoughts on this?
Novak = Gumby. The guy is ultra-flexible and a freak of nature. He does things with his feet, legs and other parts of his body that mere humans should not emulate / attempt. He has an abnormally wide split step stance, frequently slides on hard courts and he does things with his feet and ankles that would be an immediate sprain for the rest of us.
Not sure that I would not advise others to bend the back to the degree that Novak does. But perhaps the image I posted makes all that look worse than it really is. I primarily wanted to show another extreme example of ESR to get my point across to @a12345
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Here is a thread on Thoracic Extension & Flexion.
WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ?
If You Can't Extend From Your Thoracic Spine, You're Squandering Power and Inviting Injury | Article | Racquetfit
RacquetFit instructor Jeff Salzenstein discusses the importance of spine mobility for durability in tennis and how you can assess your thoracic extension using the RacquetFit screen.www.racquetfit.com
The extension of the thoracic spine is brief and when it occurs can be seen in videos of high level servers.
Thoracic Extension is mid-back, different than the lower back.
There have been posts on Thoracic Extension. TE is probably used in a similar way for the baseball pitch.
Last edited:
SlvrDragon50
Semi-Pro
I think the biggest thing that people need to separate which @SystemicAnomaly has been repeating quite a bit is pronation/supination as an action of the forearm rather than the wrist. Really really easy to mix it up, especially since a lot of coaches/players say pronate your wrist/hand when teaching serves. However, just because it is said a lot does not make it correct. It's just a lot easier for people to understand pronation/supination when you look at the hand than the forearm. And ISR/ESR... I wouldn't even bother trying to teach someone that stuff unless they had some reasonable background biomechanics knowledge. Way too easy for people to confuse that! ISR/ESR naturally follows pronation/supination so it makes sense for coaches to push "pronation/supination of the wrist" even if it's not correct terminology.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
That Youtube was first posted in 2009. Djokovic was not a good example for serving technique in 2009. He was having a serving technique problem at that time and corrected it by about 2010 or 2011. SystemicAnomaly has posted on that issue of Djokovic many times.
Federer had back issues from about 2013-2015 and videos from his serving then may possibly reflect it. ?
zill
Legend
Exactly my thoughts.
zill
Legend
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
So, apparently you are only going to hear what you want to hear and ignore those who do not validate the response is that you want to hear.
Novak is absolutely incorrect about this and I've explained why many times in the past decade.
zill
Legend
@zill
For the sake of clarity: only the top 4 actions are actions / articulations of the wrist. It is the forearm that Pronates and Supinates the hand; it's not the wrist that is responsible for these 2 actions.
So, to refer to a vigourous pronation (and ISR) as snapping the wrist is technically & completely incorrect -- as well as misleading.
I think for the ground stroke mainly radial deviation is involved but its not the main driver of power. Think pronation for forehand and supination for single backhand are the main drivers of power for a solid drive.
For the serve its a combination of radial deviation and flexion. The wrist here though is used in a significant way.
Last edited:
zill
Legend
I go for what I feel on court. I have experimented a lot. I knew the answer before posting here. Just wanted to get confirmation from people here.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
That is rather irrelevant. I don't play at any level these days. I am now 68 and am more than 20 years past my prime. Have not been able to play in the past 4+ years because of an avascular necrosis of the hip at an old shoulder injury from volleyball.
In my early 50s I was still playing at close to a 5.0 level and was still serving over 100 mph at that time -- when I last had it measured. But that doesn't really tell the whole story since, as a lefty, I tended to put massive spin on the ball rather than hit a lot of flat fast serves. High-spin Lefty serves tended to be even more effective than high velocity flat serves.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Totally disagree that misunderstood and past mistakes should be carried on in the future. It would be better to adapt the correct knowledge, as usually found in academia. The academic system for body motion has developed for over 2000 years and ambiguous terms were replaced by defined joint motions centuries ago. Every defined term can now be Googled in 30 seconds.
To explain just bend the elbow 90 d and demonstrate pronation. Then straighten the elbow and demonstrate internal shoulder rotation. Point out that when the elbow is straight that both pronation and ISR produce the same exact rotation of the wrist (as does also - trunk twisting, pelvis rotation and walking the feet in small circles).
A persistent fact is that instead of using defined joint motions usually the largest and most obvious body part seen is used in conversation. For example, 'shoulder rotation' is used conversationally when the two masses of the shoulder joints are seen to move. But for defined internal shoulder rotation, the shoulder joint is not seen to move anywhere - it just stays in the same place - and only the upper arm bone spins like a top. Every time an undefined conversational term or a defined term is used, especially new readers may misunderstand it. Then they use it when they post.................
In every field, as the study gets more serious, defined terms as used because they are not ambiguous and don't require explanations each time they are used.
In 1988, I must have heard about 'pronation' on the serve and can remember rotating my wrist just before impact with the ball. I probably used the small muscles in my forearm that are used for defined pronation. ? In 2011, 23 years later!, I read a post on this forum that explained internal shoulder rotation. I can tell you that correct words matter in communication.
Last edited:
SlvrDragon50
Semi-Pro
I'm not saying that they should be carried on in the future, but I think that using the wrist/hand makes conceptual understanding of pronation/supination much easier just as looking at the forearm makes looking at ISR/ESR rotation much easier. Unfortunately when talking to people who don't have the technical background knowledge, it is easier to explain things in factors that are not necessarily correct and use proxies. It certainly doesn't help that when we measure pronation/supination, we use the wrist joint to measure it. Likewise, the elbow is used to measure ISR/ESR.
I would not expect it to be corrected unless you enroll every single coach nationwide in a biomechanics course which isn't likely. And I say this as someone who is trying to bring biomechanical analysis to the general population. Up until I started working in a biomechanics lab, I did not realize that pronation/supination was a function of the forearm. It's kind of like how a lot of these pros (in any sport) excel far beyond 99.9% of the rest of the world, but they often don't know anything when it comes to more technical knowledge. I think this thread does a great job of clarifying the technical terminology.
zill
Legend
Please go to 2:34
I think the main reason for using the continental grip for serves is to engage the wrist most effectively.
D
Deleted member 771407
Guest
What he means is that your wrist mustn't be stiff., his words. End of the story as far as the wrist is considered. It's the interviewer who seems to believe he aims with his wrist or something...
I mean just look at his serve, no magic "wrist action".
I mean just look at his serve, no magic "wrist action".
