abmk
Bionic Poster
again, based on what exactly. Graf only made 4R and QF in the 2 AOs she played after 94.
Seles won AO later (96) than Graf did (94)
USO 95 final was close enough as it is.
Seles better at AO than at USO and vice versa for Graf.
Most Grand Slams won before turning 20 - sky was the limit for Monica Seles
- Thread starter Julius Caesar
- Start date
again, based on what exactly. Graf only made 4R and QF in the 2 AOs she played after 94.
Seles won AO later (96) than Graf did (94)
USO 95 final was close enough as it is.
Seles better at AO than at USO and vice versa for Graf.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Hoi Polloi
Professional
That is far more coincidental than Steffi having 8 of her 12 major final misses of the 1987-96 decade in the 2.5 years from mid-1990 to 1992.
No, this has been explained sooo often in the last 25 years by Grafans:
Seles had a 56-6 win/loss run in the first 15 months after her return.
2 of those losses came in the USO 95 & 96 finals against Graf (who was in peak form again!).
With Steffi in her usual form of the early 90s (when Seles racked up all those slam titles) Seles would have won those two USOs.
Which would given her a 58-4 win/loss run - a better winning percentage than in her best year 1992!
No, Seles went down starting at the end of 1996.
Only then the trauma theory had to be developed. Since Seles had become a US citizen by then and Graf was threatening Navratilova‘s GOAT status the US media went to work.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
But you can‘t be sure.
Maybe Seles would have got those problems later, 1995 fir instance?
Considering her weird style of play (2-handed forehand!) shoulder problems would have come sooner or later.
That is far more coincidental than Steffi having 8 of her 12 major final misses of the 1987-96 decade in the 2.5 years from mid-1990 to 1992.
No, this has been explained sooo often in the last 25 years by Grafans:
Seles had a 56-6 win/loss run in the first 15 months after her return.
2 of those losses came in the USO 95 & 96 finals against Graf (who was in peak form again!).
With Steffi in her usual form of the early 90s (when Seles racked up all those slam titles) Seles would have won those two USOs.
Which would given her a 58-4 win/loss run - a better winning percentage than in her best year 1992!
No, Seles went down starting at the end of 1996.
Only then the trauma theory had to be developed. Since Seles had become a US citizen by then and Graf was threatening Navratilova‘s GOAT status the US media went to work.
You missed the point. In her first year back after the stabbing, Seles lost to Majoli in the QF of Tokyo, Novotna in the QF of the French Open, Studenikova in the second round of Wimbledon, and Novotna in the QF of Atlanta. Pre-stabbing Seles is not losing those matches. She didn't lose before finals in the 31 months before the stabbing, except for one loss to Capriati at the Lipton.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
As always. To the "Seles was going to be the GOAT" group (nevermind her utter inability to win the Wimbledon title), they have fully invested in lies which were debunked as soon as they were created, such as:
1. Graf (or her father) put a hit on Seles.
2. Graf voted against maintaining Seles' ranking.
3. Seles was going to win the Grand Slam.
4. Seles would have dominated the rest of the 90s and early 2000s (hilarious, as Venus at the 2000 & 2001 Wimbledon would have surgically picked apart Seles' one-dimensional game in two, easy sets).
5. Seles would have won 20 -30 majors.
Honestly, anyone would have an easier time believing genies live in magic lamps than the entirely BS-filled stories pushed by the worst of Seles' fanatics.
You're not supposed to acknowledge that reality in threads of this kind.
Of course she was, that and the fact Graf was still playing. Moreover, soon enough, younger generations were on the horizon, who would come to dominate sport, nullifying any skill Seles posseed, but notice how the worst of her fans still pretend her future was so open ended, with no obstacles in opponents. Revisionist history at its worst.
Enceladus
Legend
One observation:The greatest legends of Swiss tennis, Federer & Hingis, both lost their last Grand Slam final from match points on their pet grandslam.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Graf was 52-5 from RG 1992-AO 93 (2 losses to Seles in RG 92 and AO 93)
Seles was 59-9 in Aug 95-end of 96. Just 2nd tournament back to the main tour in USO 95. Enough against majority opponents for her, but not vs Graf. and that final was pretty close.
Also shameful to suggest trauma reality as revisionism/theory.
Blind wilful disregard of the awful tragedy of stabbing.
The reality ->
After staying away for two years and wondering if she would ever be able to play in public again, Seles began her comeback with 11 straight wins. Still, that wasn’t enough to make her feel entirely comfortable: At the Open, she played with a security guard stationed directly behind her.
“Sitting in the chair is the worst part, because I used to feel safe there,” Seles said. “Now, in the back of my mind, I can’t. Not yet.”
The security guard thing is what actually happened in 95.
The quote from Seles is from 95 itself.
Born_to_slice
Legend
I'm pretty sure she was the most successful player ever at the age she was stabbed.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
But Seles lost only 2 of 8 finals during her great run in 1995/96, both against peak Steffi!
Whereas she lost 5 (!) of the last 12 finals before the stabbing, to players like Sabatini, Sanchez and old Navratilova.
BTW, her QF loss to Novotna at the FO 96 (on clay!) was caused by an injury. Injuries during tournaments can happen to the best.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
As I said, Seles got injury problems in late 1996, causing her to lose in her last three tournaments that year (even had to retire in her match against Date at the YEC).
No, the talk of trauma started only after that. An excuse had to be found. Too young or too silent didn’t cut it anymore, a new one was needed.
But I don‘t like these useless hypo scenarios.
Sadly Graf detractors can‘t stop it - because what else have they left?
Hoi Polloi
Professional
No that was Connolly.
I would even put Graf ahead of Seles since she won the Golden Slam, Wimbledon as a teenager and generally was more dominant, too.
abmk
Bionic Poster
The security guard thing is what actually happened in 95.
The quote from Seles is from 95 itself.
But try spinning more and more. You will get caught in your own web.
Yes, she lost finals against players like Sabatini, ASV, and Navratilova in finals after beating the other players in the draw. In 1996, she lost to Majoli (on carpet) in a QF and Studenikova in a second round match. You don't really think that pre-stabbing Seles loses those matches, do you?
Graf and Connolly won the calendar slam as teenagers. Connolly won 9 slams before 20.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
And the trauma was gone in 1995 but raised its ugly head again only in late 1996.
abmk
Bionic Poster
sure and pigs went flying all over and said steffi graf had the bestest serve, topspin bh, topspin bh passing shots ever
Hoi Polloi
Professional
Pre-stabbing Seles lost to Amy Frazier in the quarters of Tokyo and to Linda Ferrando in the third round of the USO.
muddlehead
Professional
C'mon now. Maureen Connolly 9 before 20th birthday. Leader of the pack.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
abmk
Bionic Poster
Stay pressed.
And no, Serena is not GOAT.
Am not a Serena fan. not that much interested in women's GOAT arguments per se either.
I'm only pointing out your utter shamelessness regarding the stabbing and the lies/distortions/delusional stories you are making to prop up Graf/put down Seles.
Keep going this way and many reasonable Graf fans over here will spurn you (if they haven't started already)
Yes, when she was 16 in 1990 before the streak I mentioned where she made every final for 31 months, other than the one loss to Capriati.
Hoi Polloi
Professional
So everybody whose streak is broken had a traumatic experience?
Except of course Graf, right?
Hoi Polloi
Professional
No one needs „to prop up“ Graf.
But there are people out there who desperately have to put her down in order to prop up their faves.
So Steffi had to suck up her 1990-92 blackmail scandal fallout whereas Seles lost the FO 99 semis to Steffi because she had been stabbed 6 years before.
Sounds reasonable…
abmk
Bionic Poster
and yet you are doing it.
I'd disagree with that sort of stuff too. I have no problem with anyone calling that out either.
But no one said that in this thread, right?
Permitlady
Professional
it's like Federer getting assaulted at the French. guy could have done anything to him. Federer was like Chris Rock on stage being professional while a lunatic is approaching
Hoi Polloi
Professional
No, I am preventing her to get put down.
In this forum two ATGs players are constantly put down - Court and Graf.
Not lesbian, not black, and especially not American.
metsman
G.O.A.T.
Yes because female tennis players are notorious for maintaining multi slam form for 10 years with no interruptions or severe losses in form. That's completely laughable even for men, Federer maintained multi-slam level for 6 years and no other man even comes close to that. Graf herself was sitting on 9 slams before she turned 21 and then started losing to everyone left and right for the next couple years and won 2 more slams in the next 3 years.
Navratilova won multi slams 6 years in a row, and since then pretty much no woman has maintained their best form for more than 2-3 years in a row. And Navratilova of course did not suffer from the "distractions" that most others did, and women's tennis got continually more physical leading to more injuries as well.
22 vs 9 is obviously overstating the gap between the two, but Steffi doesn't look much worse if she has to deal with a younger prime/peak Seles the entire 90s and ends up with "only" 17-18 majors. Her legacy was mostly set in 88-89 anyways.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
This whole thread is based on nothing but speculation anyway so your saying "you still can't prove it" is a meaningless statement. The fact is NOBODY has ever said "gee Hingis had so much untapped potentail due to her career ending early with injury" or "HIngis had so many slam wins to come if her career didn't end soon with injury". The same way people speculate on Seles without the stabbing or other Austin had her career not truly been ended still at her height (unlike HIngis) by injuries. Nobody. Not even her staunchest fan boys ever claim that, they only cry about the power game taking over. You are literally the first person ever I heard try to even take a stance like that.
Hingis is a good example since literally everyone (except you) agrees her slam winning days were likely over even before her career ended maybe "partly" by injuries at end of 2002. She even herself admits it is mostly she was losing ground and didn't feel as competitive as she wanted to be anymore and not injuries, but whatever. But even if you want to argue she maybe had 1-3 more slam wins someday had she had no injuries and been able to play until 30 or something, which I strongly disagree with but could accept as an opinion still, it still would not change the fact she was never being anywhere near the GOAT status her "by age 16, by age 17, by age 18" stats had her as, so she would still apply. Unless you are going to try and be truly ridiculous and argue Hingis was a possible/likely 20+ slam winner without her career ending soon with injuries, which is literally the only thing that could make your point, LOL! Please do, I could use a huge laugh.
While her performance vs Serena is impressive, that is literally the only positive about her head to heads vs top players if that is where you are going to further trump her ability. She has a losing record to Mauresmo, and was owned by Mauresmo most of her true prime (2001-2003), a player with fewer slams than her. She is 0-4 vs Venus. She is 1-10 vs Graf. I think 4-9 vs Seles. 3-10 vs Davenport, a player with the same number of slams as her. 2-5 vs Henin, most of the matches before Henin even began her prime/winning slams (and all during Capriati's true prime of 2001-2003). I think 3-3 vs Clijsters, which is ok, but most of the matches were Kim was an up and comer in 2001 and 2002. 4-5 vs Hingis which is reasonably good. And won only 14 tournaments. Her 3 slam wins are her only slam finals, and never reached a Wimbledon or US Open final. Despite her talent, actually her general performance and performance vs top players is atrocious for a 3 slam winner.
Anyway what her exact potential is, is up for speculation but at the very least her potential was not as high as what her 13-15 year old level indicated. Plain and simple. Which is often the case and my whole point. This whole "by age" thing is and always was pointless. Like I said DAVENPORT had more slams than Navratilova when both were age 25, so not even a young age. End of this silly topic.
Last edited:
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Sure. But the fact she failed to win there was pretty much curtains for her as far as winning slams. She had already not won a slam for almost 3 years by that point. And the psychological blows of that loss, when she had already been losing ground to all the big hitters for awhile now (and on decline for a variety of reasons, little of what was injuries at that point) made it unlikely she would ever win a big title again. Particularly with peak Serena about to start, the same Serena who won all 3 of their matches in late 2001-early 2002 and obliterated her super badly in 2 of them.
And even if she had won that match it was not going to be a win that resumed her to dominance of the game, LOL! Keep in mind I am referring to her potential by the "per age" logic, and she was the most successful player in history before 16, before 17, and even before 18. Yet her greatness, while significant, was never going to play out within light years of that, which I am sure we agree on. That is my only point. We can all see now there is no universe Hingis (who wound up as a 5 slam winner) winds up as anything more than say a 8 slam winner, let alone the 20+ slam winner her early success would indicate if you went with success per age being some sort of a golden rule.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
Seles fans and Graf fans are equal in their crazy. They are literally far worse than the worst of Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic fans, as unbelievable as that sounds. People who think those are bad, weren't following womens tennis and online discussions in the late 90s and 2000s when Graf/Seles were still playing or recently retired. I mostly stay a million miles away from any topic with either name in it for that reason.
BGod
G.O.A.T.
Seles' ability to win more Slams should be supported by her post-return results.
1 Title and 3 Finals of which 2 could very well have been won by her. Considering she missed 3 seasons and all that entails it's a SAFE bet barring injury she wins at least 6 more otherwise. But she was good in avoiding big injuries.
1 Title and 3 Finals of which 2 could very well have been won by her. Considering she missed 3 seasons and all that entails it's a SAFE bet barring injury she wins at least 6 more otherwise. But she was good in avoiding big injuries.
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
Here's the reality: everyone likes to view Seles in a light most favorable to Seles. That's an untenable argumentative position.
First, as others have pointed out, it's historically unlikely to keep up domination for that many years unabated. We can't just say Seles would have continued her performance based on past results if the stabbing had never happened.
Second, during the time Seles was out because of the stabbing, even assuming facts most favorable to Seles (i.e., assuming she wins every RG/AO/USO, but loses W) Graf would only have lost 4 total Majors (93 and 95 RG, 93 USO, 94 AO). Graf didn't play lights out during those years and had some injury issues. And again, this is assuming facts MOST FAVORABLE to Seles. There is no guarantee Seles would have kept up that pace.
Third, Seles actually did come back and played quite well reaching 3 Major finals in her first 5 Major tournaments, winning 1. If she came back and was totally lost, then maybe there would be some truth to the fact that she was robbed. But the fact that she came back and played quite well just not at world-beater level strongly suggests that she would have lost ground at some point.
Fourth, her physical injuries were fairly insignificant. And, as cold as this sounds, at some point you need to get over the "mental trauma" excuse. As @Hoi Polloi has pointed out, you shouldn't be getting to Major finals (and even winning one) if the mental trauma is so devastating. Nancy Kerrigan was attacked mere weeks before the Olympics (in a sport where you really can't make mistakes), by her COMPETITOR no less, and she moved on and won the Olympic silver medal losing a tight contest to Baiul. Perhaps Seles didn't have mental fortitude in general and ANY significant setback would have downgraded her results? Like, how do we know blowing out a knee wouldn't have sent her into a similar tailspin? Or perhaps an inability to win Wimbledon would have gotten to her. Or hell, even Graf playing better and starting to turn the tide a bit on Seles' turf might have destroyed Seles' confidence. At a certain point, Seles herself has to be responsible for not being able to right the ship, and we shouldn't penalize Graf for all of time because of it.
First, as others have pointed out, it's historically unlikely to keep up domination for that many years unabated. We can't just say Seles would have continued her performance based on past results if the stabbing had never happened.
Second, during the time Seles was out because of the stabbing, even assuming facts most favorable to Seles (i.e., assuming she wins every RG/AO/USO, but loses W) Graf would only have lost 4 total Majors (93 and 95 RG, 93 USO, 94 AO). Graf didn't play lights out during those years and had some injury issues. And again, this is assuming facts MOST FAVORABLE to Seles. There is no guarantee Seles would have kept up that pace.
Third, Seles actually did come back and played quite well reaching 3 Major finals in her first 5 Major tournaments, winning 1. If she came back and was totally lost, then maybe there would be some truth to the fact that she was robbed. But the fact that she came back and played quite well just not at world-beater level strongly suggests that she would have lost ground at some point.
Fourth, her physical injuries were fairly insignificant. And, as cold as this sounds, at some point you need to get over the "mental trauma" excuse. As @Hoi Polloi has pointed out, you shouldn't be getting to Major finals (and even winning one) if the mental trauma is so devastating. Nancy Kerrigan was attacked mere weeks before the Olympics (in a sport where you really can't make mistakes), by her COMPETITOR no less, and she moved on and won the Olympic silver medal losing a tight contest to Baiul. Perhaps Seles didn't have mental fortitude in general and ANY significant setback would have downgraded her results? Like, how do we know blowing out a knee wouldn't have sent her into a similar tailspin? Or perhaps an inability to win Wimbledon would have gotten to her. Or hell, even Graf playing better and starting to turn the tide a bit on Seles' turf might have destroyed Seles' confidence. At a certain point, Seles herself has to be responsible for not being able to right the ship, and we shouldn't penalize Graf for all of time because of it.
Russeljones
Talk Tennis Guru
All three compared at 19? Amazing attention to detail there!
Cupcake
Hall of Fame
Yes. In addition, her father (her only coach) was stricken with cancer and died about that time, or not long afterwards.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
For most of 1994, Monica Seles was largely out of shape, at her fattest in the months of early-mid 1994, just months after her late 1993 months being at her fittest. Her father basically told her one day "Enough of all this staying in, moping about and eating. You have to decide what you want to do from here. Going back to tennis, going to college, retiring, what?". She was still an emotional mess.
Physically, Seles was in better shape in late 1993 than she'd ever been after training with Al Kersee. But mentally, just wasn't there. Once she did start getting there mentally again, having ballooned in weight, she then had to get into physical shape again.
And of course, many people don't know that her father had been diagnosed with (stage 3?) prostate cancer less than a week after the stabbing. Her dad wasn't there in the crowd on that day that she was stabbed, feeling ill. So that was another big emotional blow at a time when she was already totally reeling, having spent her life being tough mentally was now suddenly a mess.
Last edited:
Hoi Polloi
Professional
Oh snap - Steffi turned 20 in mid-1989….
Mustard
Bionic Poster
He died in May 1998, a few weeks before the French Open where Monica narrowly lost the final to Arantxa Sanchez Vicario. He had about 2 years with the cancer in remission from late 1994 to late 1996 and then it came back in his stomach (far, far worse than prostate cancer for survival rates), and soon after that it metasasized (i.e. spread elsewhere).
Hoi Polloi
Professional
You are not supposed to mention this!!
Vile Grafans use that argument to spout baseless claims that Seles might not have had more carefree sailing even if the stabbing had not occurred. Even though we all know that a stab attack which is in the past is far worse than watching your beloved father die a cruel death before your eyes!
I see it as the opposite. If Seles came back and was totally lost, we would really have no idea how she would have fared if she weren't stabbed. In reality, she came back and was competitive at Majors through the 2002 Australian Open, when she lost a tight three setter in the SF to Hingis. Even if, in the absence of the stabbing, we just say Seles would have incrementally improved from 1993-1995 and didn't have the emotional trauma from the stabbing, it's very easy to see her winning many more Majors.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The four big dents in the Seles aura were 1996 French Open against Novotna, 1996 Wimbledon against Studenikova after having won Eastbourne, 1996 Atlanta Olympics against Novotna, and 1996 US Open against Graf. She still had her early 1990s reputation and aura at the time of her return, almost like a "gosh, Seles is back", and she did things like win her first tournament (1995 Canadian Open) without dropping a set and then get to the 1995 US Open final without dropping a set (narrowly losing the final to Graf), won the 1996 Sydney final against Davenport from championship points down, won the 1996 Australian Open semi final against Rubin when seemingly dead and buried and won the final against Huber also. The French Open was a place she hadn't lost at since 1989. Then came the damaging defeats.
She started to sit with the back of her chair to the umpire's chair instead of to the crowd.
well the way i see it is if alot of the reasons she didnt come back for so long was becuz of
psychological/emotional issues, alot of thats on her....physical issues i get. if you cant play you cant play...
but the other things? it sounds like she didnt want to deal with them so how can you move on?
psychological/emotional issues, alot of thats on her....physical issues i get. if you cant play you cant play...
but the other things? it sounds like she didnt want to deal with them so how can you move on?
FrontHeadlock
Hall of Fame
If not stabbed would she have won more Majors? Yes, undoubtedly.
Would she have won 25 and Graf only like 13? No way. He comeback proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.
zvelf
Hall of Fame
Then you haven't met Jason Swerve in this forum so you're wrong about there being nobody. It's funny, how you say this is all speculation and then insist that your speculation has to be correct. By nature, speculation has a lot of room for error. By the way, I'm not even a Hingis fan and don't particularly like her. My simple point is that she retired at age 22, was still regularly making slam finals at the time, and it's a ridiculous position to insist that she could never win another slam as you did.
My point isn't that winning a lot before 20 means you will necessarily win a lot after 20, but winning a lot before 20 also does not mean you will NOT win a lot after 20. Many promising teens do go on to become great adults: Evert, Graf, Venus, and Serena are all counterexamples to your point. I don't know what you thought Capriati's promise was at 13-15, but it is apparently a lot higher than mine. Capriati did not win a single major in her teens. That she won 3 later mostly fulfills the potential I thought she had, and had she not had mental issues impacting 5 to 6 years of her prime, she may well have won more.
Yet here you are showing exactly why you should stay away.
Sudacafan
Bionic Poster
Nadal only won one slam, RG 2005, before turning 20 years old.
When he won RG 2006, on June 11, 2006, he already had turned 20 eight days ago.
Borg should be in the list with 2 teenage slams, RG 1974 and RG 1975.
Last edited:
i really dont see any clear pattern here between winning GS's before 20 and winning the most GS's so im gonna go with "the sky wasnt the limit"
Similar threads
