Most Grand Slams won before turning 20 - sky was the limit for Monica Seles

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
I haven't read the comments, but my guess is that there are the Seles detractors who will claim that "her teenage years were her peak anyway".

These Nostradamuses are always the loudest here, trying to convince us how they know that Seles was stabbed at PRECISELY a time when she was about to start losing...
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
If not stabbed would she have won more Majors? Yes, undoubtedly.

Would she have won 25 and Graf only like 13? No way. He comeback proves that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I think we're on the same page here. My guess (and, of course, it's just a guess) is something more like Seles with 19 or 20 and Graf with 18 or 19.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
I haven't read the comments, but my guess is that there are the Seles detractors who will claim that "her teenage years were her peak anyway".

These Nostradamuses are always the loudest here, trying to convince us how they know that Seles was stabbed at PRECISELY a time when she was about to start losing...

I wouldn't automatically say those years were her peak, but it isn't that far fetched either.

Graf's 88-89 was her peak, or atleast was her peak until 95-96 matched it and this was many years later.

Evert's 74-77 was clearly her peak, atleast results wise. Now tennis wise you could argue it was 85-86 due to having to rise her game for the challenge of a surging Navratilova.

Hingis's peak was 97-early 99, both results wise and tennis wise.

Mandlikova's peak was 80-81, both results wise and tennis wise probably, although you could argue she matched it years later in late 85-early 87.

Goolagong's peak wound up being 71-74, and her best year ever wound up being 71.

Serena with her incredible longevity of greatness still probably peaked ultimately in 2002-2003.

Venus's peak was 2000-2003, ages 19-23, and she is deemed to be a late bloomer, and player with incredible longevity.

Many female players have their peaks at 20 or younger. They have many more prime or good years, but often never surpass those early years. Certainly it is far more likely than Seles's magically, even through her father dying of cancer, and future years of injuries (which no way are entirely related to the stabbing and nothingelse) having a magical 10 year or so interupted period of peak play, as some of her more delirious fans seems to want us to presume was likely.
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
I wouldn't automatically say those years were her peak, but it isn't that far fetched either.

Graf's 88-89 was her peak, or atleast was her peak until 95-96 matched it and this was many years later.

Evert's 74-77 was clearly her peak, atleast results wise. Now tennis wise you could argue it was 85-86 due to having to rise her game for the challenge of a surging Navratilova.

Hingis's peak was 97-early 99, both results wise and tennis wise.

Mandlikova's peak was 80-81, both results wise and tennis wise probably, although you could argue she matched it years later in late 85-early 87.

Goolagong's peak wound up being 71-74, and her best year ever wound up being 71.

Serena with her incredible longevity of greatness still probably peaked ultimately in 2002-2003.

Venus's peak was 2000-2003, ages 19-23, and she is deemed to be a late bloomer, and player with incredible longevity.

Many female players have their peaks at 20 or younger. They have many more prime or good years, but often never surpass those early years. Certainly it is far more likely than Seles's magically, even through her father dying of cancer, and future years of injuries (which no way are entirely related to the stabbing and nothingelse) having a magical 10 year or so interupted period of peak play, as some of her more delirious fans seems to want us to presume was likely.
I guess you haven't been following much WTA in the early 90s, huh?
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
I guess you haven't been following much WTA in the early 90s, huh?

I ensure you that I followed any period of womens tennis, and know more about any period of womens tennis with my eyes closed than you ever would. Aren't you the clown who was propping up Iva Majoli's huge potential on hard courts if she stayed motivated, LOL!
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
I ensure you that I followed any period of womens tennis, and know more about any period of womens tennis with my eyes closed than you ever would. Aren't you the clown who was propping up Iva Majoli's huge potential on hard courts if she stayed motivated, LOL!
My my, did someone touch a nerve there somewhere... perhaps...? Whatever is rattling that cage needs to stop. For humanity's sake.

I just laughed so hard at your earlier reply, I couldn't help myself, it was so full of flaws, twisted logic, bias, agendas, nonsense...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Sure. But the fact she failed to win there was pretty much curtains for her as far as winning slams. She had already not won a slam for almost 3 years by that point. And the psychological blows of that loss, when she had already been losing ground to all the big hitters for awhile now (and on decline for a variety of reasons, little of what was injuries at that point) made it unlikely she would ever win a big title again. Particularly with peak Serena about to start, the same Serena who won all 3 of their matches in late 2001-early 2002 and obliterated her super badly in 2 of them.

And even if she had won that match it was not going to be a win that resumed her to dominance of the game, LOL! Keep in mind I am referring to her potential by the "per age" logic, and she was the most successful player in history before 16, before 17, and even before 18. Yet her greatness, while significant, was never going to play out within light years of that, which I am sure we agree on. That is my only point. We can all see now there is no universe Hingis (who wound up as a 5 slam winner) winds up as anything more than say a 8 slam winner, let alone the 20+ slam winner her early success would indicate if you went with success per age being some sort of a golden rule.

fair enough. I just think Hingis should've won that AO 02. Maybe she'd have enough to get one more in 2004-06.
 

UnderratedSlam

G.O.A.T.
We have people here seriously comparing A STABBED TEENAGER in a weak era with HINGIS being overwhelmed by the emerging power game of the late 90s and early 00s.

That's how little people understand tennis.

Or comparing Seles's situation with EVONNE GOOLAGONG.

That was funny too.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
fair enough. I just think Hingis should've won that AO 02. Maybe she'd have enough to get one more in 2004-06.

Despite that I am using her as a counter example of the age principle, I actually like Hingis a lot so I do really wish she had won that. I loved her playing style which was extremely unique in the modern game, and she was one of my favorite players ever to watch. Particularly since I admitedly can't stand Capriati, although I respect her unlikely comeback to greatness in the early 2000s. And hopefully then would have played longer, and I agree whether she won a lot or not it could have extended her career (albeit the fact we are saying this shows her injuries, while there, weren't that career shattering if we are speculating on her continuing with success if she just won that one match). Maybe she then could have capitilized on the slight void post the Williams temporary decline/Belgians injuries at some point in a few years if she hung in long enough.

I do think Hingis had 3 devastating losses that ate at her confidence, and compounded her other problems (the rise of big hitters, loss of confidence and momentum, etc..). Each one took a bit more away from her:

-1999 French final vs Graf. Served for it in the 2nd set and lost. That was the one the crowd got one her, and the psychological effects of it became even more severe.
-2000 US Open semis vs Venus. She had that overhead she should have put away that would have given her match points in the 3rd and probably won her the match. Would have had a good chance vs a subpar Davenport in the final. Even if she still lost the final this win would have been a big boost, and the loss was a big blow.
-2002 Australian Open final. This one was the real cherry on top.

Would also add the 2001 Australian Open final where she lost in straights to Capriati after beating both Williams, but she was never close to winning that. Each of these losses took a big psychological hit on her, and combine that with the surge in the power game, and her loss of confidence and momentum, and yes by 2002 foot problems too. It was just too much in the end.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
well the way i see it is if alot of the reasons she didnt come back for so long was becuz of
psychological/emotional issues, alot of thats on her....physical issues i get. if you cant play you cant play...
but the other things? it sounds like she didnt want to deal with them so how can you move on?
She was stabbed on the court as she sat down with her back to the crowd. She had been mentally tough, yet was now reduced to a mental wreck who couldn't cope for a long time. Assault can do that to a person, most especially when it's completely out of the blue. She didn't see her attacker coming towards her or anything, she just suddenly felt an incredible pain in her back, wondered what had happened, saw her attacker wrestled to the ground as he tried to stab her again, and then she staggered around dazed. Her dad wasn't in the crowd, either. None of her relatives were in the crowd.

And the trauma was gone in 1995 but raised its ugly head again only in late 1996.
In late 1996, her dad's cancer was back after 2 years in remission, and was now stomach cancer. Survival rates for stomach cancer (i.e. within 5 years of diagnosis) are among the worst of all the different types of cancer.
 
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Martin J

Hall of Fame
And the trauma was gone in 1995 but raised its ugly head again only in late 1996.
It wasn't the trauma that affected her performance after her comeback (for sure she was over it), it's just that the stabbing (and the time she had spent off the court contemplating about it) had changed her as a person, she never had the same focus and determination compared to her teenage days. She'd gotten matured and realized the life is not all about tennis, so kudos to her.
 

Grafil Injection

Hall of Fame
Monica Seles 8
Steffi Graff 6
Margaret Court 4
Chris Evert 2
Rafael Nadal 2
Pete Sampras 1
Williams sisters 1
Martina Navratilova 0
Billie Jean King 0
Roger Federer 0
Andre Agassi 0
Novak Djokovic 0
Steffi had 6 GS at 19 years, but 9 GS by 20.5 years old after winning another three in a row (Wimbles, USO 1989 and Aus 1990). So it's pretty close at best.
 

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
It wasn't the trauma that affected her performance after her comeback (for sure she was over it), it's just that the stabbing (and the time she had spent off the court contemplating about it) had changed her as a person, she never had the same focus and determination compared to her teenage days. She'd gotten matured and realized the life is not all about tennis, so kudos to her.

It wasn't from a tragic event like the stabbing, but Mary Pierce speaks similariliy how after her 2005 injury forced her to take some time off tour, and she began experiencing life outside of tennis, it was hard to get super charged up about the idea of pro tennis again. Granted she was already near 30 by then, but still along the same lines of thinking. Austin while forced to retire mainly by chronic back problems, also experiences having similar feelings when she began experiencing more outside tennis as her injuries began piling up in 82-84. Pro tennis is a real vacuum, and in reality a very unhealthy, narrow lifestyle that you force yourself into due to your love of tennis, competition, and winning. You almost have to stay in that vacuum completely, even while rehabbing or non competing while injured, otherwise it is hard to ever fully embrace again. That is also probably why Graf when falling in love (with Agassi) while rehabbing yet another injury in summer 99, suddenly decided she wanted no more of it, even after reviving her career by winning the French and making the finals of Wimbledon right before that.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
It wasn't the trauma that affected her performance after her comeback (for sure she was over it), it's just that the stabbing (and the time she had spent off the court contemplating about it) had changed her as a person, she never had the same focus and determination compared to her teenage days. She'd gotten matured and realized the life is not all about tennis, so kudos to her.
Whereas pre-stabbing, tennis and the challenges of it all was something of an obsession for Monica Seles. The worst relapse she had was going to a Guns N' Roses concert in Foxborough, Massachusetts, the night before the 1992 US Open final and speaking tennis with a surprise tennis fan (Axl Rose) for hours afterwards.
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Steffi had 6 GS at 19 years, but 9 GS by 20.5 years old after winning another three in a row (Wimbles, USO 1989 and Aus 1990). So it's pretty close at best.

It depends on what you mean by close. If Seles weren't stabbed, she would have had 5 more chances to add to her tally by age 20.5: (1) 1993 French Open; (2) 1993 Wimbledon; (3) 1993 U.S. Open; (4) 1994 Australian Open; and (5) 1994 French Open.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Monica Seles 8
Steffi Graff 6
Margaret Court 4
Chris Evert 2
Rafael Nadal 2
Pete Sampras 1
Williams sisters 1
Martina Navratilova 0
Billie Jean King 0
Roger Federer 0
Andre Agassi 0
Novak Djokovic 0
No love Martina Hingis? 5 singles slam titles and 8 doubles. Youngest (16 yo) ever to win any singles slam title.

Tracy Austin had 2 singles slam titles. Youngest (16) ever to win the USO.
 

big ted

Legend
She was stabbed on the court as she sat down with her back to the crowd. She had been mentally tough, yet was now reduced to a mental wreck who couldn't cope for a long time. Assault can do that to a person, most especially when it's completely out of the blue. She didn't see her attacker coming towards her or anything, she just suddenly felt an incredible pain in her back, wondered what had happened, saw her attacker wrestled to the ground as he tried to stab her again, and then she staggered around dazed. Her dad wasn't in the crowd, either. None of her relatives were in the crowd.

she didnt want to deal with it... you said yourself she got fat and lazy and didnt want to do anything until her father gave her an ultimatum..
all im saying is she could have come back sooner if she wanted to
 

Martin J

Hall of Fame
Whereas pre-stabbing, tennis and the challenges of it all was something of an obsession for Monica Seles. The worst relapse she had was going to a Guns N' Roses concert in Foxborough, Massachusetts, the night before the 1992 US Open final and speaking tennis with a surprise tennis fan (Axl Rose) for hours afterwards.
Haha, nice detail about her GnR concert, never heard of it before. Lovely, I am sure I would be over the moon if I could attend the GnR concert in 1992 during their prime, as a 9 year old and a big fan back in the day.

Regarding Monika's obsession and/or determination, Jelena Genčić (I'm sure you know she was her first professional coach, a woman who discovered her - and many other like Djoković, Ivanišević, Majoli, etc) shared about Monika's mentality in an interview (I would post a video here, but it's in Serbian so I am not sure it would be helpful).

There was a world championship in tennis for the kids between 10 and 12 in Caracas, Venezuela and Jelena took both Ivanišević and Seleš to compete. Seleš won by losing only three games in total, but the most important detail happened during one dinner. Goran tried to mock/scare Monika by saying that he saw her SF opponent the day before and she looks as big as Jeca (Genčić) and is overall physically superior to her and will destroy her the next day. She calmly answered "You are wrong, Goran. I always look only at the ball and never at my opponent". That's was Monika's mindset at the age of 10/11, she never had that after the stabbing.
 

Grafil Injection

Hall of Fame
It depends on what you mean by close. If Seles weren't stabbed, she would have had 5 more chances to add to her tally by age 20.5: (1) 1993 French Open; (2) 1993 Wimbledon; (3) 1993 U.S. Open; (4) 1994 Australian Open; and (5) 1994 French Open.
Close as in Steffi would be at the top of your list of you said 21 is the age of adulthood. But Seles was also great, just you can't say she was better than Graf when she was young, because no one was more prodigious than Graf. She was awesome at 7.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Haha, nice detail about her GnR concert, never heard of it before. Lovely, I am sure I would be over the moon if I could attend the GnR concert in 1992, as a 9 year old and a big fan back in the day.
As Monica was only 18, she could get away with going to a Guns N' Roses concert some 200 miles away from New York City, and still go back to NYC and win the final the next day, but she did later say it was risky behaviour on her part, as Sanchez Vicario makes you run and run and to earn every point.

Regarding Monika's obsession and/or determination, Jelena Genčić (I'm sure you know she was her first professional coach, a woman who discovered her - and many other like Djokovic, Ivanisevic, Majoli, etc) shared about Monika's mentality in an interview (I would post a video here, but it's in Serbian so I am not sure it would be helpful).
Also at Bollettieri's, Nick Bollettieri had Jim Courier hit with Monica Seles for a while, and she ran Jim all over the place. Jim was mad, saying to Nick "don't make me hit with her again!".

There was a world championship in tennis for the kids between 10 and 12 in Caracas, Venezuela and Jelena took both Ivanišević and Seleš to compete. Seleš won by losing only three games in total, but the most important detail happened during one dinner. Goran tried to mock/scare Monika by saying that she saw her SF opponent the day before and she looks as big as Jeca (Genčić) and is overall physically superior to her and will destroy her the next day. She calmly answered "You are wrong, Goran. I always look at the ball and never at my opponent". That's was Monika's mindset at the age of 10/11, she never had that after the stabbing.
Nice details :)
 

buscemi

Hall of Fame
Close as in Steffi would be at the top of your list of you said 21 is the age of adulthood. But Seles was also great, just you can't say she was better than Graf when she was young, because no one was more prodigious than Graf. She was awesome at 7.

Yeah, I get that, but the problem is that we can't make a valid comparison with Seles b/c we don't know how she would have done in the remaining 7 Majors she could have played before turning 21 if she hadn't been stabbed.
 

Grafil Injection

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I get that, but the problem is that we can't make a valid comparison with Seles b/c we don't know how she would have done in the remaining 7 Majors she could have played before turning 21 if she hadn't been stabbed.
Yeah, it's impossible to make any valid comparisons if you pick specific limited time periods.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Also at Bollettieri's, Nick Bollettieri had Jim Courier hit with Monica Seles for a while, and she ran Jim all over the place. Jim was mad, saying to Nick "don't make me hit with her again!".
The story I had heard was that JC was looking for some warmup hitting but MS was blasting balls all over as if she was trying to "win the warmup". That's not the way players warm up, even top players.
 

WeekendTennisHack

Hall of Fame
Yes because female tennis players are notorious for maintaining multi slam form for 10 years with no interruptions or severe losses in form. That's completely laughable even for men, Federer maintained multi-slam level for 6 years and no other man even comes close to that. Graf herself was sitting on 9 slams before she turned 21 and then started losing to everyone left and right for the next couple years and won 2 more slams in the next 3 years.

Navratilova won multi slams 6 years in a row, and since then pretty much no woman has maintained their best form for more than 2-3 years in a row. And Navratilova of course did not suffer from the "distractions" that most others did, and women's tennis got continually more physical leading to more injuries as well.

22 vs 9 is obviously overstating the gap between the two, but Steffi doesn't look much worse if she has to deal with a younger prime/peak Seles the entire 90s and ends up with "only" 17-18 majors. Her legacy was mostly set in 88-89 anyways.

That's why I said AVERAGE. 3 0 4 0 2 0 3 0 3 is also an avg of 1.5. If Graf could do it, so could Seles.
 
Connolly, Austin, Hingis, Seles won a combined 24 slams as teenagers.
But only 1 later (Seles, AO 96 - winning only because Graf wasn‘t able to compete).
Says it all.
It says you are extraordinarily ignorant about tennis as you don't know why Little Mo didn't add to her 9 slams in a row and appear to be claiming an incredibly successful young player being stabbed on court had little impact on her ability to win slams.
 

Hoi Polloi

Professional
It says you are extraordinarily ignorant about tennis as you don't know why Little Mo didn't add to her 9 slams in a row and appear to be claiming an incredibly successful young player being stabbed on court had little impact on her ability to win slams.

And your point is…?
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Connolly, Austin, Hingis, Seles won a combined 24 slams as teenagers.
But only 1 later (Seles, AO 96 - winning only because Graf wasn‘t able to compete).
Says it all.
Graf last won the Australian Open in 1994 (conveniently with Seles out of the game, as Seles had won the event from 1991-1993). Seles' only post-stabbing win over Graf was at the Australian Open in 1999.
 

mika1979

Professional
But part of the reason for her drop-off was that she was never the same after the stabbing. Mental issues were clearly the reason she took so much time off, and her mental game clearly suffered after her return. But even if she were going to decline in the late 90s, she had won 8 of the last 9 majors she played before the stabbing at age 19. She didn't just lose any 2-1/2 years of her career but 2-1/2 years at her peak.
Dont fall for the trolling, anyone suggesting anything other than Seles being the best is either a troll or an idiot. She was untouchable, Steffi was gone. Don’t forget Monica had to take on the whole world. I don’t know if anyone remebers the grunting ban which cost her Wimbledon. Not only was the media against her, probably because she wasn’t from one of the chosen countries, but as has been mentioned the players too, as she was so far ahead. Her ranking not being protected was a joke. Her head to head with Steffi would have been like Rafa- Roger.
 
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