There has been numerous posts about ISR, pronation, swing path, yada yada. But what I believe are the MOST important phase of the serve is what happens BEFORE you hit the ball. That is correct ball toss, loading, right to left take back, and racquet drop. I feel as long as those things are more or less correct, the ISR, pronation, swing path, follow though all happen naturally and you don't have to think about them. Chas can chime in, but you can't force or intentionally perform ISR or any of those other things that happen after the ball is gone.
Most important parts of the serve, ignore the rest
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ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
How much do I owe you for that wisdom? What I love the most is I don’t even have to think about where I swing the racquet, apparently, I’ll hit slice, kick and flat serves without thought.
I don't mean to say you don't think about what kind of serve you are hitting. Just that if you prepare correctly, you don't have to (and shouldn't) consciously think about ISR, pronation, up and out swing, etc, which has been taught and discussed forever. With the correct preparation, the only thing you have to think about is the type of serve you are hitting and where, not the after hit mechanics which should be a natural outcome if the things done before contact are correct.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Right to left is good advice and a useful teaching/learning mechanism to help prevent the waiter's tray, but it isn't a fundamental by any means. There are many great servers who don't do that and those who prefer a full pendulum takeback rarely do. That type of server often does not have the palm down during the backswing either; Ivanisevic and Barty off the top of my head, although imo it is also good advice.
You left the door wide open, so ....how about a short video of you hitting just one of those serves, preferably a well struck flat serve with some pace?? I suspect that request might be out of your price range!
No, my serve is still very much a work in progress. Yeah, you're right, I still don't have a reliable serve. But still trying to figure it out and this was just a thought I had. I just put this out there to see what other people think about my conjecture. I guess it's safe to say that you're in disagreement. Fair enough.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
I never said that! All serves are a WIP, mine too, although I am running out of time as my eyesight worsens (I am legally blind and need another cornea graft - with a wait time of 2 years). Sounds like you are on the right track and I agree with what you said. keep at it!
Edit: Expect a lot more typos!
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ballmachineguy
Hall of Fame
You apparently got more out of that mini lesson than I did. I had no idea what was meant by “right to left takeback.”
I don’t have any cartilage in my hitting shoulder. The first thing my orthopedist said when she saw my MRI was “You need a shoulder replacement. I’m not hitting serves anytime soon!
I'm not sure take back was the right term. The "right to left" movement the racquet travels just before the racquet drop. Racquet points to the right (for rightys). then moves towards the left going past the head right before the racquet drop. I think that's supposed to be the proper technique and I've seen lots of videos just on that movement. Sorry for the confusion.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Yeah it's a pretty common teaching mechanism to avoid the Waiter's tray error. Explained here:
More and more pros seem to serve that way these days, so it seems like good advice. Versus someone like Barty, who points the tip straight back and the palm isn't down before bringing it up into trophy (I think that's called an out to in swing path).
Sorry about your shoulder.
Using the present tense does seem a bit misleading. So maybe those serves are only in your dreams!!!! Couldn't resist, sorry.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
The most important parts of the serve are the toss and the upward swing. But I don’t think it’s a good idea to ignore the rest.
Otherwise, you could end up bad habits that could be difficult / frustrating to correct. Things like WTE, racket leak, prep hitches, timing errors, etc.
It might be best to start of with a half serve motion — see Jeff Salzenstein or Ryan on High Altitude Tennis. You might initially start the half serve w/o a knee bend. After a while, you can add the knee bend & leg drive, making sure they are properly-timed.
Later, you can add a simple or abbreviated racket prep motion. Avoid a full loop motion or an DT/UT motion — these tend to create hitches, racket leak &/or timing issues.
Otherwise, you could end up bad habits that could be difficult / frustrating to correct. Things like WTE, racket leak, prep hitches, timing errors, etc.
It might be best to start of with a half serve motion — see Jeff Salzenstein or Ryan on High Altitude Tennis. You might initially start the half serve w/o a knee bend. After a while, you can add the knee bend & leg drive, making sure they are properly-timed.
Later, you can add a simple or abbreviated racket prep motion. Avoid a full loop motion or an DT/UT motion — these tend to create hitches, racket leak &/or timing issues.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The only serve techniques are those that involve the high level serve using internal shoulder rotation (IRS) as used in the ATP, WTA and some other levels. But the serve techniques that are most studied and best known are in the ATP. Consider the other techniques besides the ATP & WTA techniques. Are there any others?
But in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse most active tennis players use a Waiter's Tray technique, but that technique is not studied or presented, due to its lower performance. Most active tennis players don't know.
The pros use a very limited number of sub-motions in their overall serve techniques. Some sub-motions may add some percent to the serve speed but other sub-motions would be required for the serve to work? Sub-motions are parts of the service motion where focus is on just a short time and certain active body parts and motions, as stated. If you point a video camera at an ATP sub-motion, you will see other ATP servers doing that same sub-motion (with a little variety of course). See below.
Sub-Motion - Before & After Thoracic Extension
To single frame on Youtube, go full screen. Stop video and use the period & comma keys.
Sub-Motion - Before & After Thoracic Extension
See serve 14-16 sec
You will see this sub-motion in ATP serves. And many other sub motions.
It is also known as Shoulder-Over-Shoulder, if that is your interest instead of Thoracic Extension. Based on the usual word description, I thought that the shoulders moved differently, but now that I see these videos, I got it right. I did not know that Thoracic Extension and Shoulder-Over-Shoulder belonged in the same sub-motion! Shoulder-Over-Shoulder is misleading and now has that bagage and entrenched usage.
I don't know what sub-motion is most important. Think that most are required to make the serve work.
But in the Tennis Serve Nuthouse most active tennis players use a Waiter's Tray technique, but that technique is not studied or presented, due to its lower performance. Most active tennis players don't know.
The pros use a very limited number of sub-motions in their overall serve techniques. Some sub-motions may add some percent to the serve speed but other sub-motions would be required for the serve to work? Sub-motions are parts of the service motion where focus is on just a short time and certain active body parts and motions, as stated. If you point a video camera at an ATP sub-motion, you will see other ATP servers doing that same sub-motion (with a little variety of course). See below.
Sub-Motion - Before & After Thoracic Extension
Sub-Motion - Before & After Thoracic Extension
See serve 14-16 sec
You will see this sub-motion in ATP serves. And many other sub motions.
It is also known as Shoulder-Over-Shoulder, if that is your interest instead of Thoracic Extension. Based on the usual word description, I thought that the shoulders moved differently, but now that I see these videos, I got it right. I did not know that Thoracic Extension and Shoulder-Over-Shoulder belonged in the same sub-motion! Shoulder-Over-Shoulder is misleading and now has that bagage and entrenched usage.
I don't know what sub-motion is most important. Think that most are required to make the serve work.
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This is the point that I was questioning in my original post. If you can comment on this.
ISR true, one of the most important elements of a good serve. But my question is should it be done consciously? If the racquet and body are prepped properly before the upward swing, will the ISR happen on its own without having to think about it? Will the Waiters tray not happen if a good racquet drop and proper external rotation of the shoulder are done prior to the swing?
I have been working on my serve for years trying to purposely do the mechanics of ISR and pronation, but have not been successful. But recently I have had better success when I just concentrated on having a good racquet drop, loading, and ESR and I think my ISR and pronation were occurring more easily than when I was "trying" to do those things.
In that case, you're definitely in the wrong place.
johnmccabe
Hall of Fame
Eventually, you'll have to polish everything. During the process, thinking one thing is more important than another often shows what you need to work on at the current development stage, rather than the actual difference in importance of the technical details. At least, that's my experience. Worth a cent or not is up to you.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
"right to left" is easy to remember but tells nothing about why it is being done.
The purpose of that movement sounds like the External Shoulder Rotation (ESR) that lengthens and stretches the muscles that do Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR) in the many servers that use a certain Trophy Position by moving through it. I went through that sub-motion around 2015 one of a sequence of muscle stretching sub-motions. You see the same sub-motions in the baseball pitch. I posted a lot about that maybe about 2014-2015. Including Trophy Position maybe earlier.
An interesting finding was that Trophy Position was being done in 3 ways:
1) Moving through Trophy Position with the ESR lengthening & stretching of the ISR muscles.
2) Pausing at Trophy Position after some ESR which gets you to TP but no ESR speed is built up for use. Wawrinka I think
3) Going to TP and stopping to wait for a high ball toss to fall. Sharapova
If you search a compilation of serves you can probably find all 3 types.
Roddick I believe threw in a little additional stretch-shorten cycle by moving the racket sharply down and then starting the ESR up to and through TP.
Many sub-motions of the serve are designed to use the Stretch Shorten Cycle and usually the ISR muscles are the muscles to be stretched and sometimes I believe that only the lat ISR muscle is the target muscle. Of course, videos do not directly show muscle stretching just give some indications of the muscle length. A reference on Kinesiology can identify all the joint motions, muscles and has excellent drawings is very useful, great. As you look at videos of sub-motions, you look up the joints, main muscles and joint motions. Of course, you don't understand it all. But when the Kinesiology reference identifies a joint motion and 4 or 5 muscles that are involved, and 2 of those muscles are big and 3 are small, you tend to pay attention to the big muscles, like the lat for ISR for the serve.
The good thing about video based study is that you can immediately, in one frame, see differences from ATP techniques and yours and you can be certain that those techniques are probably in the top 1% of existing techniques. So you have a technique that you know is highly refined and loaded with successful biomechanics and has a safety track record.
You can look at an ATP stroke for an hour and find a list of sub-motions. The other week, someone pointed out 'tossing arm inversion' and we checked it out looking for it in other ATP servers. Sure enough, the other ATP servers and some WTA servers were doing it. One of the forum posters named a new sub-motion! Look in high quality videos, taken in direct sunlight (shows sharp shadows at feet). The directional lighting may favor observing shadows that can be very informative, such as directly seeing ISR on your serve from elbow shadows. But you need a very fast shutter to limit motion blur.
Coming up with your own thoughts is a great approach. But not observing what is in front of your face is a bad approach especially with the state of information in the Tennis Nuthouse.
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I am still learning about sub-motions and finding new sub-motions.
When you use the "right to left" comment to describe your racket motion, I am certain that your thoughts about sub-motions are not very accurate.
In my posts, I mention a lot of things that you should see in clear, sharp high speed videos. Most people do not like to analyze videos. Take 2 or 3 hours and look at two ATP servers, one above the other, and single frame (yeah, most hate going where they don't know things). Look up a few of the main terms and joint names.
Video shows you what is being done, but it does not show you how to do it.
I spent 35 years with my own thoughts after reading tennis books. Then I read one thread that made ISR clear.
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ISR a very important part of the serve, no question. And its obvious that it is a part of any high level serve. But do you think these professionals were thinking "try to ISR" when developing their serves as juniors?
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Sub motions from the drop to contact can NOT be controlled on an actual serve, since it happens in less than the blink of an eye. That makes it difficult - if not impossibe - for anyone with technical flaws leading to the racquet drop to develop a decent serve, and is why I almost always recommend half serve drills and/or learning upper body mechanics before even attempting to use the legs. That might seem counter-intuitive since leg drive initiates the drop and is partly responsible for how deep said drop is.
No. I always like to quote the following when people suggest ISR/pronation will just happen if you setup properly.
Original thread found here. Imo Ash has a few clues, and he is/was a high level coach IIRC. A correct setup only gives you the chance to successfully implement it. For some it will happan naturally, but not for a lot of others. There are drills and visualisation techniques that can help.Yes, that's why all those rec and club players you see bashing around have perfected internal/external rotation
Seriously, how many times do the coaches on here have to repeat that correct pronation needs to be taught (in all but extreme/unique circumstances). Serve pronation doesn't just come from the forearm/upper arm, but also internal - external rotation of the shoulder from the rotator-cuff. It is a feeling which must be learned in order to be performed correctly, repeatedly and most importantly safely.
The video with Pete McCraw is a good demonstration.
cheers
Practice the McCraw demo, eliminate the legs, do half serves and walk-through serve drills, and THEN add some more leg drive once you have all that down. As someone who had to figure this stuff out for themselves wading through so much online crap, that is my personal advice.
Keep at it and good luck!
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MoxMonkey
Semi-Pro
@Chas Tennis brother your posts are some of the best. I appreciate the kinetic breakdowns you put on this forum.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I expect that most players that learned the serve had a knowledgeable coach. And that has gone on for decades for ATP players and elite players. For the US I would expect that such a coach would be recognized in a given local area by success with other students and have a very high hourly rate.
I enjoyed lessons but when I asked at two indoor tennis clubs for an instructor that specifically could teach me 'pronation,' I didn't get one. One said that he once beat Isner in college, but I could not have a useful conversation with him on the serve. I took a lesson from the other and he did not understand or teach a high level serve.
I have a lot of average motor skills such as walking, raising my arm, and more complicated motions. After they are learned, I would describe it as, I wish to take steps, wish to raise my arm or more complicated things and they happen, just a wish or nothing. For extra factors, more force, throwing farther, mistakes, etc., I try to remember something from the past and adjust. I may think about opening a jar when the lid is very tight. If something hurts or does not feel right, I become conscious of it. Most everything else is automatic = sub-conscious.
Tennis strokes have problems so that everybody misses about every 1-10 stroke attempts so they are normally constantly thinking about what to do, adjust, increase or decrease. For me, I am aware of many short commings relative to techniques. I don't simply wish to hit a hard backhand and it happens, because it is well known and trained. Sometimes tennis is much better than other times depending mostly on pressure from my doubles opponents. I'm 81 and age is a factor.
The body has 600 muscles. I seem to have mainly 2 conscious channels: one for images and one for words. Obviously, with just a few slow channels I can't consciously send nerve signals to each of 600 muscles at the same time. Training athletic skills is a very complicated thing.
But before it all, you or someone else must know what to do. The best I have is high speed video and I enjoy it.
Has anyone ever said that an athlete must think of everything that he is doing consciously. ? Who said that? Often posters seem to believe that to discuss complex motions implies that players must also think of them somehow consciously, as they are doing them. Find who has said that, I never thought that.
It is also related - to study the time required for nerve signals to travel in the body. For example, maybe 25 milliseconds from brain to hand muscle. That travel time may make certain beliefs impossible. Research the travel times for nerve signals from brain to muscles and from body parts back to brain.
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Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
A good point and I'm glad you raised it on the "consciously" thing.
But is that first sentence really true in all cases? There seem to be lots of great servers who don't really know what they do, they just understand how to do it. Maybe that's not true either, but anecdotally it is my current position, and here is one reason why; since ISR has been neglected for so long and apparently misunderstood, how could it be that even 50-100 years ago pro players were hitting bombs?
Here, you have touched on my question. I am trying to determine if ISR and pronation are conscious actions or simply byproducts of doing something before those actions to make them occur naturally. I think we are able to better control the racquet drop and maybe ESR, and my supposition is that if we do that then the ISR and pronation will happen automatically. I just wanted some confirmation on that so I know what to focus on when I serve. But if I am wrong, then its back to the drawing boards for me.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
Perhaps post #21 was a waste of time! Something you need to understand is that no one can really tell you exactly what to focus on until they've seen your serve. I understand why you won't post video, and that's cool, I get it. I like the way you handle yourself on here, but reading between the lines and making a few assumptions, if your focus is on ISR/pronation then you will probably need more than luck.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The serves of ATP players consist of a sequence of many specific sub-motions - unusual, extreme and very rapid sub-motions. The sub-motions are shown in videos. I don't believe that anyone knows the sub-motions somehow. When I hear the words 'naturally' or 'automatically' I usually find that specific information about serve sub-motions never follows. ISR as a sub-motion was not published by tennis researchers until 1995, even though it was filmed as early as 1919 with Gerald Paterson and many players were doing it for decades.
I'm not the one to ask about 'automatically' or 'naturally'.
There is a close association between throwing and the tennis serve, because both move the arm very rapidly with the same joints, muscles and joint motions.
Djokovic and Nadal had their serves corrected by experts around 2010. Sabalenka had her serve corrected by Gavin MacMillan last year. I assume that they corrected a few sub-motions for each player. ? Gavin has some interviews where he discusses his work.
Look carefully at Sabalenka's tossing hand single frame. See how she turns her hand out from its toss release position. That is an entirely new sub-motion to me. I believe that Gavin's fix had something to do with that. Many other ATP players also turn their hand like that. I was not aware of that and I don't understand much more than that at this point. It's purpose may have been discussed by Gavin. ? See my thread The Tennis Serve- What's True?
New Sub-Motion. To single frame, go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.
But sub-motions take on a new complication with Thoracic Extension. While ESR & ISR are doing their stretching of the ISR muscles, the entire bony structure of the upper skeleton is being significantly changed by Thoracic Extension. The bones that the lat is stretched between are moving together! Too complicated to discuss here. But that might be an issue especially for older tennis players with stiffer Thoracic Spines, like me and you? Stiff Thoracic Spine safety issue?
For now, you should switch to learning the forehand, it is so much simpler than the serve.
Also, look into all safety issues such as Ellenbecker's serve recommendation to limit how high the upper arm angle is at the shoulder.
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Dragy
Legend
As far as I can say, loading isn’t primary thing to learn good serve. Sure, you want to get some basic correct preparation which allows you to unwind and swing. Sure, you need decent reliable and consistent toss.
But once you feel comfortable with sideways prep, preset or abbreviated trophy that is solid, and not-locked legs and knees, you are well repeated to deliver 90+ mph serves with some spin.
Drop is a byproduct of doing correct things and last element I would directly focus on. The whole nature of it is to happen, not to be performed.
Then when you have correct setup, good toss and basic feel for uncoiling, it’s key to have proper swing: swingpath, clean contact, extension and finish, as well as achieve good degree of uncoiling (no over-rotation neither staying locked and frozen), with posture and balance.
When you have this, you can add more loading and replicate same upwards swing and uncoiling but with more power injected. The drop shall be happening just the same way, but due to higher power of uncoiling — it will store and release more energy for higher RHS.
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
No worries mate. That is 90% of these forums. And understandable, as you have to have thick skin for some of those negative Nancys just throwing out negative comments with no value. But honestly, if you can suss through to the folks that are genuinely discussing things and making suggestions, even one's you might disagree with, posting video removes the bias and narrative of posts and leaves you with facts to reckon with.
Cheers.
Enough over dissection of a simple process. Use that energy to cure cancer or something if that's what you are obsessed with. It doesn't help to complicate it all with all the crap that no one can relate to here or oncourt. Share the concepts of what they need to understand and things will begin to fall into place. Trust me ... that's exactly what I do with professionals down to novice and made a successful career doing so .... less you explain the less they need to forget later.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
yes. What you do after the ball leaves can help you look sexier, but doesn’t impact what the ball does.
Digital Atheist
Hall of Fame
You won't stop it, trust me! Several have tried and failed miserably.
I'm not sure how many great players have been made learning from message boards alone. For those of us who are in the trenches daily, trying to make a difference in a players game, how you communicate information is a selective art form. One profound quote Nick said to me when I asked what the biggest difference of new coaches in the business and seasoned coaches he said," Young coaches can't wait to try to impress by telling students everything they think they know....Highly successful experienced coaches only tell you what you need to know and nothing more". That's been my position here with posting is that the brilliance comes from simplicity and knowing how to convey knowledge that is on point to best improve a player using a conceptual approach and creativity. The overly scientific talk just flies over the head of players frustrating players while making the coach feel good about themselves with all the terminology they can spew. Never impresses me because they rarely get the desired results in the end leaving players overwhelmed and confused more often than not.Especially with high level pro players, get in and out of their heads without them knowing you were ever in there! If that helps anyone who makes a living teaching
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