DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
sure focus on that part since you know otherwise your theory does not hold water.
Most impressive sweep: Rafa clay 2010 or Nole hc 2011
- Thread starter Dutch-Guy
- Start date
sure focus on that part since you know otherwise your theory does not hold water.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
In tems of pure achievement the clay Slam is more impressive as:
1) Nadal is the only guy to do it thus far
2) 1 GS + 3 M (5000 points) > 1 Slam + 2 Masters + 1 500 (4500 points)
In terms of competition Nadal's clay Slam doesn't even come close to Djokovic's hard court sweep as (it doesn't take anything from Nadal, though, it's not his problem the field sucks on clay):
1) the field on hard courts is way deeper, name me 1 guy besides Nadal whose best surface is clay, even David Ferrer reached his only 2 Slam semis on hard courts.
2) Djokovic beat Federer 3 times, Nadal 2 times, Murray, Berdych and some other really tough opponents, Nadal's main rivals on clay in 2010 were Gulbis, Almagro and his pigeon Verdasco oh and Federer (1 match) who was enjoying his worst season on clay since 2002-2003
1) Nadal is the only guy to do it thus far
2) 1 GS + 3 M (5000 points) > 1 Slam + 2 Masters + 1 500 (4500 points)
In terms of competition Nadal's clay Slam doesn't even come close to Djokovic's hard court sweep as (it doesn't take anything from Nadal, though, it's not his problem the field sucks on clay):
1) the field on hard courts is way deeper, name me 1 guy besides Nadal whose best surface is clay, even David Ferrer reached his only 2 Slam semis on hard courts.
2) Djokovic beat Federer 3 times, Nadal 2 times, Murray, Berdych and some other really tough opponents, Nadal's main rivals on clay in 2010 were Gulbis, Almagro and his pigeon Verdasco oh and Federer (1 match) who was enjoying his worst season on clay since 2002-2003
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Nadal is too good on clay,that's what makes clay look like weak.seriously what makes nole run more difficult? past his prime FED who is playing worst tennis of his life or eternal choker in GS FINALS Murray ? He barely beat nadal in Miami who isn't playing his best tennis now.on the other hand Nadal only take breather in Queens to be ready for Wimbledon.No one is going to remember djokovic achievement especially if he can't win a 2nd major this year.
namelessone
Legend
Nadal beat the best claycourters from that season:
Monte Carlo:
He straight setted JCF(who was 18-1 on clay in 2010 until he met Nadal), Ferrer(he beat JCF in Acapulco and was 15-1 in 2010 until he met Nadal in MC - I am counting DC clay matches too), Verdasco(who beat Novak 6-2,6-2 in MC).
He skipped Barca. BTW, Verdasco the "joke" from MC final beat Ferrer in SF Soderling in the Barca final, the same "chump" who would beat Fed in RG and make the finals again.
Rome:
Nadal beat kohli, Hanescu, Wawrinka, Gulbis(who took Federer out) and Ferrer in the final(who took out tsonga and dasco, a dasco who beat Djoker AGAIN in this event after MC).
Madrid:
Nadal beat Dolgopolov(a talent to be sure), Isner, Monfils, Almagro(took a set) and Fed in the final.
RG:
Nadal beat Mina,Zeballos,Bellucci,Hewitt,Almagro,Melzer(who beat Djoker) and supposed nightmare matchup Soderling in the final(who beat Fed).
Outside of Djoker who had a bad clay season by his standards, who was gonna rise up from this bunch to beat of push Nadal on clay in 2010? Fed? Fed does have his moments against Rafa on clay but he wasn't gonna do anything in 2010. Soderling made RG finals again so he made good on his 2009 final. Ferrer and Verdasco had a very solid CC season though they failed at RG again.
And even if Djoker had a better clay season, odds are he wouldn't have beat Nadal if we look at their last matches when Djoker couldn't beat a Rafa who was having physical issues.
This is akin to the "easy draw" for Nadal on clay. Who is gonna give Nadal a hard time on clay in his prime? Maybe the shaky version of today but 2010 Nadal was playing rock solid tennis on clay.
namelessone
Legend
No it wasn't.
When Nadal came into MC 2010, he hadn't won a title since MC 2009, a whole year basically, had just lost consecutive SF on slow HC after being a set up to guys past their prime(ljubicic and roddick), had knee issues at the end of Miami and his confidence was at an all time low.
In MC 2010 he made a statement and took out his frustrations on the field for the remainder of the claycourt season.
single_handed_champion
Professional
While I won't say 'no one is going to remember', I agree that if he doesn't win another, people will move on swiftly to the next flavor of the month. It isn't like we don't have enough very good players who for some reason or other fail to live up to their potential.
namelessone
Legend
People only remembers slams.
Who remembers Nadal's 81 match clay streak other than tennis aficionados?
But most casual tennis fans will be able to tell you that he's won most slams.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
Juan Carlos Ferrero was 30 years old back then and his best years were 2000-2004. Btw his best runs were in 250/500 events on clay.
Ferrer - the guy just has no weapons, he's 0-11 against Federer, including a match where his chances of defeating him where high, 2010 Madrid - Federer's worst surface + he was crap throughout the whole clay court season, Ferrer was near his best
Verdasco - no comment, he was on his knees after he won a single point against Nadal in Monte Carlo, won 1 game in total
Verdasco is still a joke of a top tenner. You won't change it.
Kohlschreiber, Hanescu, Wawrinka, Gulbis? That has to be the best draw ever. Ferrer I mentioned before.
Dolgopolov, Isner, Monfils, Almagro? WOW, another great draw. Federer was total crap on clay in 2010 and he almost took another set off Nadal that year.
Mina, Zeballos, Bellucci - WOW, I'm impressed
Hewitt - 29-year old back then, his last good year was 2005 + he's rather sucky on clay compared to grass and hard
Almagro, Melzer - clay giants
Soderling - could be dangerous if it wasn't the final where he's tense
Dude, please, stop fighting a lost case, Almagro, Verdasco, Gulbis, Dolgopolov and Ferrer were his main rivals on clay that year and they are all worse than these players on clay:
No of matches played against the best clay courters:
1) Djokovic - 0
2) Del Potro - 0
3) Federer - 1 (his worst season on clay since 2003 + it's his worst surface)
4) Soderling - 1 (was tense as the year before a Slam final, the only scenario when he would lose against the top 5 no matter what)
5) Davydenko - 0
tenis1
Banned
Another reason why is Novak's streak more implesive. He beat Federer 3 times, Nadal 2 times and Murray once.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
Both are special.
But I had to admit I have been very impressed with Djokovic's run. Played in the hot conditions of AO, beat Federer and Murray back to back without dropping a set.
Went to super fast hard court in Dubai, and beat Federer there again, after demolishing the draw.
Went to slow, high bouncing hard court in IW, and beat Fedal back to back.
Then went to humid conditions, and outlasted Nadal again.
He beat the other three players in finals from the special BIG FOUR for ALL of his titles. Not bad at all. Plus, he had a Davis Cup win coming into it.
But I had to admit I have been very impressed with Djokovic's run. Played in the hot conditions of AO, beat Federer and Murray back to back without dropping a set.
Went to super fast hard court in Dubai, and beat Federer there again, after demolishing the draw.
Went to slow, high bouncing hard court in IW, and beat Fedal back to back.
Then went to humid conditions, and outlasted Nadal again.
He beat the other three players in finals from the special BIG FOUR for ALL of his titles. Not bad at all. Plus, he had a Davis Cup win coming into it.
LOL you managed to discredit Djokovic for every single one of his top wins. Bravo!
Clown
namelessone
Legend
The point you seem to be missing is that those players, Ferrer,Verdasco,Soderling, Fed/Almagro to a lesser degree WERE the best players in CC season 2010. He beat the best from that year.
Ferrer finished clay season a respectable 28-6(losing only to Nadal,Fed, Soderling and to RG surprise Melzer).
Verdasco finished clay season with 22-7(losing to Nadal,Ferrer,Almagro and ******* away some matches against Robredo and Gasquet).
Soderling made Barca final,RG finals, Bastaad finals and finished with a 15-5 on clay that year despite having some issues.
Federer finished clay season with a 10-4.
Djoker finished clay in 2010 with 12-4.
Now let's look at the deities your propose to push Nadal on clay in 2010:
1)Djokovic. Djokovic was soundly beaten on clay by Nadal in the past and couldn't beat a Nadal with physical issues in 2009. Nadal of 2010 was quite close to his 2008 form on clay. You think Novak could have clipped his wings when he has NEVER beaten him on clay?
2)DelPo. Why put delpo here as a threat? Just cause he has a RG SF? Melzer also has a RG SF. DelPo almost beat Fed in five, Melzer came back from two down to defeat the Djoker, a very competent CC'er by your assumption. Melzer was better than Djoker at this point, in RG.
3)Federer. You said so yourself, his worst surface and past his prime. Why is Fed such a massive threat to Nadal on clay in 2010? Don't get me wrong, he is one of those that has the goods but in 2010 he was past his prime and most Fed fans have given up the thought of Fed beating Nadal on clay ever again(or at least in RG).
4)Soderling. The boogie man. So now he doesn't count cause it was a final? Come on.
5)Davydenko - knows how to push Nadal but he is 3-0 against Nadal on clay.
To me the only one with a real shot to push Nadal in 2010 on clay is a very motivated Djoker, as he is the only one with the youth and game to do so and even then Nadal is a big favourite in this match up.
The funny bit to me when criticizing Nadal's streak(he didn't beat this guy or that guy) is that Nadal has utterly defeated almost everyone that has been thrown at him over the years on clay so it's not like he is manouvering around to get streaks or such. The guy has 6 losses in 6 years on clay and has a 81 streak match on this surface. He absolutely owns this surface.
I've already asked this question many times but no one will answer:
What is a tough draw for Nadal on clay with the current seeding system?
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DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Bottom line is this:
The higher ranked players are better HC's than CC's. Case closed. Djoker's run more impressive.
The higher ranked players are better HC's than CC's. Case closed. Djoker's run more impressive.
namelessone
Legend
It would be weird if it was otherwise since 65% of the tour is HC.
The-Champ
Legend
bottom line is if you take Nadal out of the the equation, the number of CC champions will increase. Nadal is too good on the surface that's it!
I could easily say...nobody played great on HC except for djokovic, thus he won all the titles earlier this year.
tacou
G.O.A.T.
that isnt the question at all
but I will have to go with Nadal simply because the clay season is more compact and more importantly 3 1000s > 2 1000s + 500
both very impressive, though
Cassius Clay
Banned
Bottom line is this:
Nadal was the only one really competent on clay out of hundreds of players. Case closed. Nadal's run is more impressive because he was able to excel on a surface no one was able to. He literally destroyed everyone.
namelessone
Legend
Exactly. That's very easy to do:
-Murray is mental midget in GS finals so it's not a big deal. Fed is past his prime.
-Beat Fed in Dubai on fast surface. Even Nadal beat Fed there in the past and Fed is past his prime anyway, no?
-Beat a Nadal in IW who was serving at 25% for most of sets 2 and 3. Vamosinator without a serve is very easy to take out for Djoker. And again, Fed is past prime.
-Nadal wasn't playing that great in Miami and Nole was lucky that Nadal choked at 15-30 at 6-5 on Djoker's serve in the third and when he was leading the tiebreaker.
I can also say that Djoker was lucky that Murray/Roddick/DelPo/Davydenko weren't in top form for most of this HC season.
There. Djoker's run was a fluke
/trolling mode.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Exactly, since 65% of the tour is indeed HC, players are that much better on HC since they play on it more.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
That's just more weak era contradictory arguments. You have no proof there would be more CC winners.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
I agree with you, everyone else on clay sucked, which is what allows Nadal to dominate so easily. To dominate like that on HC is a much more difficult task.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Exactly. That's very easy to do:
-Murray is mental midget in GS finals so it's not a big deal. Fed is past his prime.
-Beat Fed in Dubai on fast surface. Even Nadal beat Fed there in the past and Fed is past his prime anyway, no?
-Beat a Nadal in IW who was serving at 25% for most of sets 2 and 3. Vamosinator without a serve is very easy to take out for Djoker. And again, Fed is past prime.
-Nadal wasn't playing that great in Miami and Nole was lucky that Nadal choked at 15-30 at 6-5 on Djoker's serve in the third and when he was leading the tiebreaker.
I can also say that Djoker was lucky that Murray/Roddick/DelPo/Davydenko weren't in top form for most of this HC season.
There. Djoker's run was a fluke
/trolling mode.
You just have to watch the matches really. Nadal vs Djoker we extremely competitive. In the CC matches Verdasco got 1 games in the final for godsakes. That says a lot.
Cassius Clay
Banned
Your argument is like saying Einstein's Theory of Relativity was not brilliant because the rest of the physicists sucked.
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DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Your theory is like saying Rafa is GOAT because he beat every one legged spaniard in the barn.
namelessone
Legend
Are you kidding me?
Without Nadal the following happen:
Fed has 5 RG + another couple of clay masters. He would be a legendary claycourter.
Coria would have another 2 masters clay titles and maybe this lifeline would have extended his career. Great claycourter anyway.
Djoker makes 2 RG finals(denied in 2007 and 2008 in SF by Nadal), with a high chance of winning the 08' one. Also he wins 2 clay masters and makes another 2 MS finals, in hamburg 08' and Madrid 09'. 1 RG title and 2-4 clay masters. Very good claycourter.
Soderling is a RG winner.
Ferrer has 2 masters titles(rome,MC), 2 500 clay titles(barca, denied by Rafa in 2008 and 2009) and makes another final in MC and Rome. Also, he makes a RG SF.
And this is just some of the big guys. Other guys would be snatching clay titles as well if it wasn't for Nadal.
Since 2005, Rafa has lost only six matches on this stuff:
-Andreev in QF Valencia 2005
-Gaudio in Buenos Aires QF 2005
-Fed Hamburg 07(a great Fed performance)
-JCF in Rome 08'(Nadal has large blisters on his feet but he swept every other title while he was healthy that clay season)
-Fed Madrid 09'(Nadal was bit tired from his SF but Fed played very smart tennis)
-Soderling 09'(very good Soderling performance versus a hoddled Nadal)
He has entered 33 clay events in the 2005-2010 period and has won 27 of them. That's not sharing much, now is it?
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
^^^ If Nadal wasn't around the entire draws would have been different. You are really grasping there fella.
nadalbestclass
Hall of Fame
I'm going with Rafa
1) Cuz it's kinda close and there was an emotional aspect to those clay wins, which really tips the scale for me. That was Rafa showing that he wasn't going to be written off.
2) 3 Masters + 1 slam beats 2 Masters + 500 + slam
3) I like Rafa more than Nole.
All in all it's close and both are great achievements, but my vote goes to Wafito
1) Cuz it's kinda close and there was an emotional aspect to those clay wins, which really tips the scale for me. That was Rafa showing that he wasn't going to be written off.
2) 3 Masters + 1 slam beats 2 Masters + 500 + slam
3) I like Rafa more than Nole.
All in all it's close and both are great achievements, but my vote goes to Wafito
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
I'm going with Rafa
1) Cuz it's kinda close and there was an emotional aspect to those clay wins, which really tips the scale for me. That was Rafa showing that he wasn't going to be written off.
2) 3 Masters + 1 slam beats 2 Masters + 500 + slam
3) I like Rafa more than Nole.
All in all it's close and both are great achievements, but my vote goes to Wafito
Plus you want to be Rafa's undies right Meg?
nadalbestclass
Hall of Fame
namelessone
Legend
The point remains. Federer/Djoker/Soderling/Coria and others would have won big clay titles and make them more accomplished CC'ers than they are right now in the eyes of history and everybody would have said that there is a strong era. Kuerten/Muster/JCF/Moya couldn't dominate clay for more than 1-3 seasons, Nadal already has 6 dominant seasons under his belt.
How do you expect good CC'ers to rise when Nadal rules in the major events and the others are left scrounging for what remains? And remember, there are 5, maybe 6 big events on clay PER YEAR.
Hardcourt has AT LEAST 8(6 HC masters + 2 HC GS), not to mention the countless other 500 and 250 events on HC. The OTHER GUYS can cut their teeth on these smaller HC events and build up their game, as the play 65% of the time on HC, not clay, not grass. And unlike clay and grass, they do have draws in which they can win titles from time to time, usually a 250 or 500 event.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
^^^ I don't really understand the point, if Nadal is not around, well of course someone has to win the titles. Maybe Federer would have won them all. Because there are not other really decent CC's.
okdude1992
Hall of Fame
they are pretty close. but nadal was so dominant during the sweep.
dominikk1985
Legend
I go with novak.
of course nadal has achieved more (GS+3 masters compared to novaks GS+2 masters) and the clay court season is the longest of the seasons.
However on HC the field is much closer together. federer (OK not so much now his prime is over but still good), novak and nadal have a similar level on hardcourt.
on clay however nadal was heads above anyone last year.
so novak had more competition in achieving his sweep.
of course nadal has achieved more (GS+3 masters compared to novaks GS+2 masters) and the clay court season is the longest of the seasons.
However on HC the field is much closer together. federer (OK not so much now his prime is over but still good), novak and nadal have a similar level on hardcourt.
on clay however nadal was heads above anyone last year.
so novak had more competition in achieving his sweep.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
Just to add to IW-Miami. Both are the biggest draws outside of the slams, with a much deeper field.
Personally though, despite feeling that the Djoker had the better run, I think Nadal's was more historical.
Cassius Clay
Banned
I myself had a tough competition when I beat my friends 50 times in a row because our level is pretty close, but that doesn't make it more impressive than Nadal's achievements.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Interesting your level is close yet you beat them 50 times in a row
LOL, more ********* contradictions.
namelessone
Legend
What's there to understand?
More guys win more CC titles--> therefore they become better CC players in the eyes of many--> more CC winners in an era--> stronger era supposedly, at least on TW.
It's very interesting how perspective works in the end. Quick example:
Coria, who many here say is a better claycourter than Fed just cause he pushed young Nadal(unlike Fed who has matchup issues with Rafa), made it to 6 clay MS finals, winning only those against Calleri and Schuettler. He made 1 RG final.
Fed made 12 clay MS finals, won 5 of them. He lost 6 of those 12 to Nadal.
Roger made 5 RG finals, winning one and losing 4 against Nadal.
Many still believe Coria to be a better claycourter than Fed just cause he came from a different era and cause he pushed baby Nadal on clay.
This "there were better CC'ers in the past/ a better clay era" stems from a wrong premise. Those "better CC'ers" weren't dealing with a force on tour like Nadal. Even in the 90's, Muster, probably the best grinder I have ever seen, couldn't win sweep all clay titles and had 2-3 good years at the top on clay. He was AMAZING on clay but other guys some of the cut even in his best years.
Nadal didn't allow that most of the time and this went on for SIX YEARS on clay. As Guga said, players give up on improving on clay just cause they know they will have to face Nadal at some point so they prefer to improve their HC game cause there are more chances at titles and no one person can win ALL big HC titles.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
More guys would not win titles. Federer would take them all.
Cassius Clay
Banned
Interesting your level is close yet you beat them 50 times in a row
That's what *********** say about HC competition: It is very tough and therefore Djoker's sweep is more impresssive :-?
Applying your logic: If it's so tough, how come he managed to win so many tournaments in a row?
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
The-Champ
Legend
exactly the kind of arguments you give when you belittle anything not named djokovic.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
And paid a higher price for being a far worse hard courter. You can't have everything.
Players excel on hard courts cause there are far more tournaments compared to clay. Usually a typical top 20 pro out of 18 tournaments played a year participates in 4-5 tournies on clay, 11-12 on hard courts and 2 on grass.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
Huh? What have I belittled besides Nadal's achievements relative to Djokers?
Cassius Clay
Banned
So 3 is so many now?
It was just a hyperbole and you are comparing tournaments (4, not 3) with matches (50 in my example).
You are the one contradicting yourself.
li0scc0
Hall of Fame
I don't think either streak is terribly impressive...what is more impressive to me is how Nadal followed up his Clay court streak by winning Wimbledon and the US Open in 2010.
If Djokovic follows up this Hard Court streak by winning the French AND Wimbledon, then, and only then, will I consider the feats to be equivalent.
If Djokovic follows up this Hard Court streak by winning the French AND Wimbledon, then, and only then, will I consider the feats to be equivalent.
DjokerIsTheBest
Banned
You don't even know what a hyperbole is. You have problems dude.
