Most overrated and underrated player?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by paranoidandroid, Apr 14, 2018.

  1. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    I disagree that a majority would. Most people on this board would acknowledge that his serve is below Karlovic, Isner, Raonic, Muller et al. Those guys and a few others have superior serves. Dimitrov absolutely does not, I don't think that's even a viable comparison considering how one-dimensional his serve is and how it lags behind Federer's in all relevant service statistics (even ones isolating the serve), and Cilic's is a tad below as well.

    As for versatility on the forehand, I agree. But from the baseline, I have to disagree — Del Potro can literally be like a wall from the baseline slapping forehands.

    Well we'll just have to agree to disagree here, even though I do think your assessment is wildly off. I've seen Delpo's forehand break down a fair many times, more often than Federer's. I think his best matches distort your perception here.

    On the volleys, I agree with most of what you said... except Karlovic deals with low balls very well (not just for his height). Whether this be on half volleys or very low volleys — he deals with them as good as anyone, and has excellent touch. Obviously on the low volleys, not as good as Federer, but Fed is definitely not out of his league by a considerable amount in that department. Where Federer will excel better here is when the ball gets to that extremely low, nearly going behind you, type of ball. Where since Karlovic stands so upright (while this is a technical flaw, he makes do with it), getting control on those types of balls, like you said, with his height, is very difficult.


    Disagree, Karlovic is indeed below average on low balls whereas Federer is one of the best on tour at handling them. Closes down the net way faster when he s + v's, has more dexterity, better reflexes and a better first volley. Other than his imposing physical stature I can't think of a single advantage Ivo has here.
     
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  2. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    Because the poster I am engaging with claimed that these strokes were overrated given how many other players have better said strokes. What better way to demonstrate/debunk this than to individually analyze each one that was listed as better?
     
  3. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    You're putting words in people's mouths as I'm quite certain @abmk doesnt believe Federer has a top 3 serve. Why are you expecting him to answer for what other people have said?

    As for his head-to-head with Delpo, what more is there to say other than some players being better than the sum of their parts, especially within certain match-ups. Wawrinka is even more accomplished than Delpo, yet he has a 3-20 record against Fed. The difference in the two rivalries is that Delpo has managed to pull out some close matches, whereas Wawrinka has faltered in that regard. Fed's DR against them is nearly identical: 1.23 against Wawrinka, 1.22 against Delpo. Delpo has the type of game that can bother anybody, and as I've already acknowledged, his forehand at its best is about as good as anyone's. Doesn't mean his forehand is as good as Federer's on the whole. Just because he's behind Federer, against the rest of the tour, in most of the relevant categories doesn't mean the unique quirks of his game can't pose a challenge to Federer. While I would still say Federer has a better forehand, he's not as quick as he used to be, so he can be beaten for pace by Delpo in ways that even Nadal can't replicate. You're thinking far too linearly here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  4. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    http://www.tennisabstract.com/blog/2017/01/30/the-federer-backhand-that-finally-beat-nadal/

    ^


    As per BHP, a metric devised by Tennis Abstract, Nishikori's backhand is the best on tour at +3.6 per 100 backhands, a pretty ridiculous output (#1 in all the players they've tracked is Agassi, at +5.0.)

    Now, is it actually the best on tour? Unlikely, as this metric does not adjust for competition levels. Murray and Djokovic are at +2.5 and +2.6, respectively, and both usually have to navigate their way through players at the business end of tournaments, so that will naturally bring their numbers down.

    However, this principle does not apply to players outside of the Big 4, who can more or less be directly compared with him. Nishikori's backhand is clearly a fantastic shot. It's his first serve that holds him back.
     
  5. zagor

    zagor Bionic Poster

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    It's hard to gauge any player's invidiual strokes because a lot of it depends on the conditions, surface, form, match-ups etc. in some aspects (half-volleying, blocking and chiping 1st serves back, slice) For example Fed's BH may indeed be better than Stan's, however when it comes to trading topspin BHs is where Fed lags behind Wawrinka by a good margin which is why one might take Fed's BH on grass or indoors (ie. when the ball stays low) but Stan's BH on clay and slow HC where he has enough time to setup his shots. Even when it comes to the serve, some returners fare better against spot servers than overwhelming pace/spin and vice versa, others are better at getting big serves in play than crushing weaker ones and similar.

    I do think that Fed's serve is overrated as a standalone shot because people often equate the best service game and the best server with the best serve. His FH is overrated in the twilight of his career (30s) mostly because people still act like it's the best on tour because it's former glory. At his peak when he had quick feet and a lively arm I do think Fed's FH was one of the best in the Open Era but I don't think it aged particularly well compared to say Nadal or Agassi.

    Hard to tell about his volleys because it's mostly a bonus tactic for him he rarely employs, to his defense it's atleast partially due to the era he plays in (and he did win first Wimbledon by coming in on most of his 1st serves) but he doesn't live and die at the net like Ivo and very few others still do today. Good luck trying to be a somewhat successful heavy net player in the 2000s era without having Ivo's monster of a serve to come behind, it just doesn't pay off as a tactic today. In the past even a guy like Lendl felt the need he had to serve and volley on grass because it was a percentage play at the time on the surface, it's a different ball game today.

    Regarding H2H, they depend on a thousand factors and are usually sketchy way to draw conclusions from, especially when players aren't peers whose best periods overlap. Tennis isn't boxing, the player's effectiveness is measured against the field, not a small, select group of players. You don't get any bonus ranking points for defeating Fed on grass, Nadal on clay or Novak on HC, if you lose the next match the title will still go to someone else. Delpo could be 20-0 against Fed, if the latter still had 20 slams to Delpo's one (or let's say 5-6, presuming ATG territory if he wasn't so injury prone), every single player would still take his game (which has to be comprised of excellent individual shots, more than the sum of its parts can only take you so far) if given a choice.
     
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  6. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    LOOL I missed this.
     
  7. BlackSilver

    BlackSilver Semi-Pro

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    Overrated, in absolute terms: Djokovic, Nadal and Federer. And it's not close.

    Underrated...... who knows.
     
  8. BlackSilver

    BlackSilver Semi-Pro

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    And on relative terms (players who are overrated but have done relatively little or nothing on their careers): Kyrgios, Shapovalov and Zverev.
     
  9. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    Nobody believes he has the best overall return nor the best overall groundstrokes. You're talking out of your rear.

    However, given the fact that he's playing against a field that holds serve at a higher rate than any in tennis history and plays top 10 guys more than just about anybody, the 27% figure underrates him severely. Against top players he wins return games at a historically high rate.

    Agassi, for instance, trounces Fed in career % of return games won, 31.7-26.9..yet look at what happens when we do a comparison against the top 10

    Federer: 22.9%
    Agassi: 22.3%

    Top 5?

    Federer: 21.1%
    Agassi: 20.6%

    Okay, but Agassi played against better servers, right? Possibly, but as I said, the tour-wide hold rate is far, far higher today.

    This applies to many other players who are ahead of Federer in return game stats, sometimes well ahead, yet fall behind the better the competition gets (all of which is not to say Agassi has an inferior return, I am merely demonstrating the faulty logic on display.)

    In fact, take a gander at where Federer's peak ELO return ranks at:

    http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/peakEloRatings

    6th all time. What about year end ELO return rankings every year, starting with 2003?

    2003: 6th
    2004: 2nd
    2005: 3rd
    2006: 1st
    2007: 4th
    2008: 5th
    2009: 12th
    2010: 3rd
    2011: 4th
    2012: 5th
    2013: 6th
    2014: 5th
    2015: 4th
    2016: 6th
    2017: 5th
    2018 so far: 5th

    Not bad for somebody that also has one of the best service games of all time and unquestionably the best tiebreak game.

    Any returning metric that takes competition into account ranks Federer as an all-time great returner, however said competition also bumps him down the list of % of return games won, as one would naturally expect. Pretty much every returner close to him in %'s against the field is way, way behind him in %'s against the top 20, 10, and 5. Here's another thread touching on Federer's returning brilliance:

    https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...better-than-return-games-won-suggests.578297/

    Moral of the story: if you want to make an argument using statistics, its best that you use the right ones, or else you'll end up looking rather foolish. Thank you for playing, be sure to drop by again.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  10. Freddy Cat

    Freddy Cat Professional

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    If you look back at the polls held on this forum, people will say Federer has a comparable serve to Milos. Lol. People on this forum are SLIGHTLY more reasonable/realistic than the average tennis fan. But I would be willing to bet 30% of the forum will say Federer has a top 3 serve -- based on past polls held here.

    I suggest you look at the videos I posted, which I will say for the last time -- look at it frame-by-frame, and Ivo is significantly quicker than Federer at closing down the net (a big, healthy step quicker) -- there's absolutely no way whatsoever you can argue against that. If you can't look at what's being put in front of you, this dialogue doesn't have much purpose to it. The main difference in their movement is that Ivo has a bit of anomaly in his service motion, which is specifically geared to how he plays. Where most players (I'm using a right-handed player for example and clarity), when serving from the deuce court, will bring their back, right foot up towards the ad side of where they're serving, with how they have their body oriented. Ivo has a much more closed stance, where his back, right foot is actually further out wide to the right, and so his foot -- and momentum is oriented far more to the actual direction of his serve. That's why Ivo is significantly faster -- especially when serving from the deuce... whereas they're more comparable when you look at them serving from the ad court. For clarity, when serving from the add, the orientation of Ivo's feet is rotated significantly counter-clockwise (if you're looking down from an overhead position) -- easier transition into the volley.

    I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth. I'm not going to engage in 4 separate discussions, where multiple people are arguing for different parts of Federer's game. The fact that there's so much variability in people's arguments -- speaking on behalf of Federer's shot quality -- shows in and of itself how overrated he is. Fans of his can't even come up with a reasonable explanation -- I'm not saying any of those 4 people might have been wrong or not, but the discrepancies in their claims is exactly what I'm getting at, and the entire point of this thread -- the fact that he is overrated. I didn't make up any of those things, those are all things that are said on this forum consistently.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  11. Sputnik Bulgorov

    Sputnik Bulgorov Rookie

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    Dude, I think the reason so many people have had strong reactions to your post is because in your effort to justify why Federer is overrated, you went the other way and severely underrated many of his shots to a ridiculous degree.

    Let's take a look at your original claims that started all this:
    1. "Realistically, his serve should never be compared to the likes of Karlovic, Isner, Muller -- his serve isn't even top 10 material in today's game"
    As many have reiterated here, nobody is saying that he has a better serve than Karlovic, Isner and Muller. Nobody is even arguing that his serve is top 10 all time. I think the reason he gets lumped in with these guys is because he has serve-bot holding stats. However, his serve is definitely top 10 material in todays game and your claim that Dimitrov, Cilic and Querrey are better don't do his serve justice. Perhaps if your only criteria for judging a serve is the ability to win points outright, you might have a point, but Federer's serve gives him so many opportunities to close out the point, he puts himself in another league. First serve points won, First serve %, hold % all back this up. Check out the ATP's own statistic measure for serving and Fed is ranked #3 for the rolling 52 weeks, beaten only by Karlovic and Isner: http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stat...ek&surface=all&versusRank=all&formerNo1=false

    2. "His forehand should never be compared to Del Potro."
    The problem here is, you act like Feds forehand isn't in the same league. Feds forehand, and not his serve, is the one shot that most people would put in an all time greatest list. Del Potro's forehand, at it's best, is up there with anyone's, but it hasn't displayed the career-long excellence, consistency and Slam winning capability of Federer's. Delpo's forehand is flatter and more powerful, and he can hit it better on the run nowadays, but Fed can take his forehand unbelievably early and still redirect it with considerable pace and accuracy. His inside-in and inside-out forehand are still one of the best in the game, and was even better in his prime. In Feds 30's, yeah the forehand has declined, and I can understand if you feel its overrated based on what it is now, but you really ought to look at that forehand during the earlier half of Feds career as well.

    3. "His volleys should never be compared to Ivo or Mischa."
    Okay, Fed is a great volleyer, but he isn't overrated if people compare him to Ivo or Mischa. You're not setting a very high bar here. The best volleyers of all time are McEnroe, Edberg, Sampras, and most people would concede that Fed isn't in that league. Seriously though, I don't know why you'd get uptight if folks say he's better than Ivo. I recently watched the Ivo vs Sandgren Houston SF, and was reminded of how average Ivo's volleys can be (yes I know he's 39). Even behind that incredible serve, Ivo found himself getting to the net late and having to hit a more defensive low volley instead of a putaway shot. He very often puts himself in terrible positions because he's not quick enough to the net, even behind a good serve or a good shot. Sometimes he would even run to the net behind terrible approach shots and get passed easily. Part of being a good volleyer is maximizing your chances by knowing when to come in and when to stay back. Ivo sucks in that regard.

    4. "And his backhand should never be compared to Wawrinka or Gasquet."
    Again, comparing his backhand to Gasquet or Wawrinka is not overrating him. The mistake most people make when comparing backhands is reducing it solely to topspin, when it's so much more than that. Wawrinka and Gasquet have better and more consistent topspin backhands than Fed, but they have to make sacrifices for it, especially Gasquet. They have to stand farther back in the court in order to give themselves enough time to hit the backhand, which can be exploited by dropshots, drop volleys and angles. Fed can take his backhand early, allowing him superior court positioning, and can even half volley it very well from the baseline. He hits one of the best slices in the game and hits better drop shots off that wing as well. On clay and slow hard courts, yeah, Wawrinka and Gasquet have the edge, but on grass and fast har courts, Fed has a case for himself.
     
  12. Federer2006aobackhand

    Federer2006aobackhand Banned

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    Underrated: Carreno Busta. Don't get the hate. His game is as interesting as any other generic baseliner's...Djokovic included.

    Overrated: Kyrgios. Poor man's Roddick. A serve and nothing else. Why is he "talented?" He's a lousy mover, a ****-poor returner, and he pushes his groundstrokes.
     
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  13. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    Looking past how poorly documented this all is, 30% is not a majority.

    In any event, I disagree with those people. But it's one thing to argue that Federer's strokes are overrated, and another to make specific comparisons to other players who are clearly inferior.


    1. I've watched the video many times and have concluded that the opposite is true. I'm not sure how anybody could think otherwise..Federer very very very clearly closes down the net much faster. Please, anybody that hasn't seen the videos, watch and simply time how quickly it takes Federer v how long it takes Karlovic.

    2. It's curious that you disregard actual data sets..spanning entire matches (in Fed's case, 299 matches) but parrot highlight videos. What's the deal with that? Even if Karlovic's randomly sampled 16 matches don't do his net statistics justice, a 69% success rate at net is a very high. And it's still better than two minute highlight reel clips.

    So be it.

    Yes, his service motion is tailored towards transitioning to the net. I don't dispute that. The problem is, his movement forward is so lumbering that it negates it.

    Well then that's your issue, no? Why should he explain other peoples words when it's wholly separate from any argument he has made?



    Respectfully, this is very vague.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  14. Freddy Cat

    Freddy Cat Professional

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    Take %hold with a grain of salt when it comes to serve quality. Look at where Nadal ranks. Another poster on the forums her rearranged the serve stats to be more representative of serve stats. He did this by assuming the 2nd serve return points won by that player would be a good indicator of their skill outside of the serve, and how much of their serve stats that are under multiple variables are solely based on their serve. It was a little more complex than this, but this was the idea. Federer was far lower in this regard. Querrey has a way better serve than Federer — not even up for discussion — I don’t care how much more versatile Federer is and how much better his shots are to back it up. Cilic is too, easily better serve than Fed. As for a 10th spot, I could bring up 10 other players to debate for that spot than Dimitrov.

    As for the backhand and forehand apples. You make a fair argument, and maybe I’m comparing apples to oranges with that regard. Both shots have their strengths and weaknesses. No one can compete with Fed’s shot quality for how early he takes the ball. This of course comes at a cost, and why he shanks a tonne of balls compared to these other players. I still feel if he was being compared with the people who are among the top ranks in either stroke is a bit ridiculous. Matchups alone cannot account for the discrepancy in how Fed fans rank Federer so high and the head to head records. This for me is the biggest indicator of how overrated he is.

    Don’t try to draw conclusions from one match. It would have been all too easy for me to refer to federer’s match vs Kokkonakis. Ivo was playing like absolute garbage in that match. Low serve percentage, next to no placement on the second serve, windy conditions, and the fact that it’s on clay all adds up. That match is the first time in over a year where I’ve seen Ivo hang back on his serve like that, and not serve and volley. The confidence was clearly low vs Sandgren.
     
  15. Freddy Cat

    Freddy Cat Professional

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    I respect your opinion. But this won’t come to anything conclusive. I feel I’ve addressed all your points adequately — or at least to what I’m willing to in a time efficient manner.
     
  16. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    Bolded is what @Sputnik Bulgorov is probably talking about. You're hyperbolizing in the other direction lol; for one, you'd be hard-pressed to name those 10 other players and there's no way Cilic's serve is easily better than Federer's considering how infrequently he lands it in + service stats against top players (including stats that isolate the serve, like aces.)
     
  17. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    Fair enough mate, appreciate the civility.
     
  18. Federer2006aobackhand

    Federer2006aobackhand Banned

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    "Again, comparing his backhand to Gasquet or Wawrinka is not overrating him. The mistake most people make when comparing backhands is reducing it solely to topspin, when it's so much more than that. Wawrinka and Gasquet have better and more consistent topspin backhands than Fed,"

    Ugh. No, just no. They most certainly do not.

    This bs emanates from people not actually really watching any players but the top guys. People notice Wawinka and Gasquet seem to hit more backhand winners than Federer and draw the conclusion this means their topspin backhands are better, ignoring that for every winner they hit, they hit another 5 balls 3 feet outside the lines. The stats back it up: Federer hits way fewer errors off his backhand than either of them, and a better winners to errors ratio. Besides, Gasquet uses his as his main weapon, since his forehand is mediocre. Of course he's gonna hit more winners per match on average.

    But nearly every time Federer played Gasquet, Federer's backhand was better.

    "He hits one of the best slices in the game and hits better drop shots off that wing as well. "

    No, he does not. Federer' slice has not been good since 2009. Stop recycling ancient, outdated narratives, ignoring the blatant changes in tennis. Federer' slice is not a very good shot anymore as it sits up waiting to be hit. The decline of Federer's slice was a major reason Berdych and Tsonga started troubling him. Now instead of creating errors with it, Federer saw them pummeling it.

    "On clay and slow hard courts, yeah, Wawrinka and Gasquet have the edge, but on grass and fast har courts, Fed has a case for himself."

    No. First of all, they don't have the advantage over Federer anywhere. He dominated them everywhere.

    Secondly, Federer's game is not better on faster courts. That's yet another myth. People only think this because of his results vs. Nadal and Djokovic. The reason he does better against those two on faster courts is they make his serve more effective and reduce his baseline disadvantage against them. But in terms of the way he hits his ground strokes, he hits them better on slower courts. More time helps him in that regard the same way it does everyone else.
     
  19. Sputnik Bulgorov

    Sputnik Bulgorov Rookie

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    We'll just have to disagree on the serve. Unless you can give some more objective data on why Querrey and Cilic have better serves, you'll have a difficult time convincing people. I believe @TheFifthSet gave data that while Cilic has more unreturned serves on his first serve, he also has a significantly lower first serve percentage.

    Federer definitely isn't in the top ranks of the backhand all time, but I don't think it's unreasonable to place his forehand up there. The head to heads are a completely different argument. It should occur to you that Nadal and Djokovic have their own strokes/facets that would rank high all time. Both of them have some of the best defense and movement all time. Nadal has one of the best forehands and Djokovic has one of the best backhands. Federer has respectable, but losing H2Hs against both.

    I actually really like Ivo, dude. He's such a unique matchup, he comes in so much, and his serve is so overwhelming, I find myself rooting for him all the time. I think Ivo has a better 1st serve than Isner and rank his serve highly all time, but his volleys... ehh. Don't get me wrong, he's a very competent volleyer, but I think you could have given a better benchmark to justify why Fed is overrated.
     
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  20. Freddy Cat

    Freddy Cat Professional

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    Fair enough, regarding the serve. I'll put that argument on hiatus. And not to deviate from my main argument, but I do feel that Federer's serve is ranked far too high by the general population... and that's because most tennis fans are unrealistic and unreasonable. There are obviously Fed fans who are realistic, but there is a LOT of them who are not -- and is why I consider him so overrated in this department. A lot of this has to do with people being so fixated on him, and not being open to explore different players and their capabilities -- this isn't so much the case when we discuss this in a forum setting, although it is still relevant.

    Yes, it is reasonable to put his forehand up there. It's even reasonable to put his serve fairly high (just not as high as people like to think). His backhand is very good (but, again, over-rated). My main issue with the head-to-head issue is, I have difficulty putting this in a way that would make sense... Djokovic: really only discussed for his backhand. Nadal: really only discussed for his court speed and forehand. Federer: Exploded with discussion of his unrivalled footwork, his amazing serve, his amazing forehand, his amazing volley, his amazing backhand. So, you would think that if he excels in all of these categories, he would certainly have a substantial advantage in a h2h -- even if it is considered "a bad matchup" -- as people often regard the Nadal h2h. So, relatively speaking, I have absolutely no problem saying that Federer is over-rated, and people's egregious comparisons (I'm not saying every Fed fan is like this) contribute to this. And, as I previously mentioned, this is heavily due to his fanbase (a massive chunk of all tennis fans) being tainted with unreasonable and unrealistic people. So, if I ask you for instance, why he ranks top 3 in all of these categories, why don't the H2H's correlate with this, I'm not asking you to justify something you've said -- as it's something (I think) that we can both agree on. I'm asking you to justify this collective mindset -- and if untrue, this would concur with the concept of Federer being overrated.
     
  21. abmk

    abmk Bionic Poster

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    no, he isn't. The fact that you say he is just goes to show your ignorance.

    For career : Federer is 10% at ace, 2.4% at DFs
    Dimi is at 9% aces and 4.2% DFs .

    Fed is at 88.7% of service games won. dimi at 83.1%
    Fed is at 77.2% first serve points won, dimi at 74.9% (1st serve points depends more on the serve itself than the 2nd serve)

    Federer's serve is one of the clutchest of all time, dimi is a DF machine so many times under pressure --- its a massive, massive joke to even begin comparing their serves under clutch.

    so overall, its not even debatable.
    its only up for discussion if you are clueless or crazy. take your pick.


    see TheFifthSet's response to this.

    Post #203 :

    https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...underrated-player.614799/page-5#post-12204188
     
  22. metsman

    metsman G.O.A.T.

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    Federer's FH currently isn't better than Delpo outside of some isolated stretches I don't think. His current game is very much first serve driven especially against good opponentsIt's noticeable how much he struggles when he doesn't make them due to the big erosion in his ground game and movement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  23. zagor

    zagor Bionic Poster

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    You're going to the other extreme though, are you not? Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to imply that a guy who doesn't have a single top 10 stroke somehow stumbled his way to winning 20 slams. Whatever intangibles, creativity, shotmaking, great hands etc. he has it's nowhere near enough to explain such massive success on the big stage in tennis, those yield you a career of Nalbandian or Rios not a Tier 1 ATG. You can't have such prolonged, consistent success in a power baseliner era without considerable weapons, just not even theoretically possible.

    In the general public, media and the like Novak is not discussed just for his BH, he's routinely called the greatest returner of serve ever (and so often that I think it's impossible to miss it), and is also lauded for his amazing defensive capabilities. Now, dig a bit deeper in any tennis forum such as this and you'll see people pretty extensively discussing his improved FH since 2011 and his uncanny ability to re-direct pace (the reasons his opponent often cover more distance than him), often by Fed fans actually.

    Regarding Nadal, I agree atleast in part. I think even his own fans often underrate his actual talent and just talk about his speed and figthting spirit. His shotmaking talent is quite evident in his FH when he's confident and in great form or the outrageous passing shots he comes up with even on full stretch. His BH I do think is underrated, it's rock solid and great at counter-punching, it's very hard to attack him on that wing (why I often feel that going hard and flat to his FH is a better tactic), ditto for his serve which is quite difficult for the majority of players to return with depth (which you need to do because how good his 2nd shot is and how quick his feet are). Then again you also have guys like McEnroe saying he's the best singles volleyer on tour, so some of they hype rubs off on him too.
     
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  24. zagor

    zagor Bionic Poster

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    Yep, Fed's current FH is really nowhere near Delpo's as a consistent big weapon. That's one of the problems actualy, Fed is a victim of his longevity, success and playing style (where he can still make it look easy when faced with subpar opposition). People have short memories and often only remember the last iteration of any player (or hear the media people parrot superficially about former ATGs), it's why you also hear people so often refer to Sampras as a serve and volleyer.

    Fed's current movement and groundies are so far removed from his heyday when he was a beast even on clay that it's ridiculous. The guy dished almost 20 bagels in 2006 (and often in later stages of slams, not against some tomato cans) but people only consider this twilight version which ditched clay completely and relies on one break per set and protect your serve game strategy.

    Just the way it is I guess, Fed's peak days are now considered ancient history.
     
  25. Sputnik Bulgorov

    Sputnik Bulgorov Rookie

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    I can't justify this collective mindset (that fed has a top 3 serve, forehand, backhand, volleys all time) because I simply don't agree with it. But I get your point though that there's a lot of hyperbole going around here when it comes to Federer, and I have seen folks hailing his serve among the likes of Sampras. I feel it's human nature to overrate someone when they're successful and underrate them when they're struggling. Just look at the doom and gloom surrounding Djokovic these days in complete contrast to the goat worship of Federer.

    In that way, I agree with your ultimate point - that Federer is overrated. What most people disagreed with were your follow-up points on why. I guess you have some very strong opinions about it, but the way you chose do describe him being overrated made him sound a lot worse than he really is.
     
  26. mike danny

    mike danny Talk Tennis Guru

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    You'll have to elaborate on why you think Fed is overrated though.
     
  27. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Legend

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    I think Federer gets held to a higher standard here because he's Federer. Is Delpos '09/'12-'13 better than Rogers current one? Absolutely, but his fh wing has also declined and has been toothless in many encounters against top guys as well ('17 Miami/Rome/USO). Also the instances where Delpo bested Fed on the forehand side overshadow the times Federer more than held his own.


    All in all, I think at this point in their careers Delpo can reach higher heights on that side but is a little less consistent.
     
  28. zagor

    zagor Bionic Poster

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    It's a fair point, we're still under the impression of Delpo's great recent run but even this year he was outclassed off the FH wing against RBA (which was head scratching) at Auckland F and against Berdman at AO.

    Definitely, Delpo's current top level regarding his FH is unreachable for this Fed, agreed.
     
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  29. TennisLBC

    TennisLBC Semi-Pro

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    Overrated: Isner
    Underrated: Johnson
     
  30. captainbryce

    captainbryce Hall of Fame

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    Be that as it may, players also peak at a later age today than they did in 15 years ago. You don’t see teenagers winning grand slams anymore, while you DO see 36 year olds winning them. The sport has changed to the point where the level of athleticism and maturity required to be successful implies players peaking several years later than they did in the past.

    Keep in mind that I’m not implying that Kyrgios will achieve the level of success that Federer has. I doubt any player will. I’m just saying for me it’s too early to write him off as a viable slam contender in the future. The point of that comparison was that before Federer turned into Federer, he was known for being an inconsistent, emotional hothead who had not yet harnessed his abilities. I don’t think Kyrgios has peaked yet (physically or mentally). And it is still possible for him to end up being a multiple grand slam champion 5-10 years in the future. At 23, he’s still young enough to make significant improvements to his consistency, mentality, and fitness.

    When I compare him to a player like Dimitrov, I see less room for improvement in Dimitrov’s game or approach to the game. Also, I don’t think Kyrgios has been as hyped as Dimitrov was. Most of Kyrgios’s hype comes from his personality and on court antics (flashy play, unsportsmanlike conduct, tanking, etc). He is known for being a personality and a character that brings intrigue to the game. But he was never hyped to be the next Roger Federer as Dimitrov has been for the last 6-7 years.
     

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