Most Pros are using stock racquets

anarosevoli

Rookie
They absolutely still make the racquets new! They do full production runs! Never said they made a few. Babolat has production runs going on today for OG AeroPro Drives, OG 1994 Pure Drives, Aero Storms, Pure Storms, Pure Controls, 2000 woofer Pure Drives, AeroPro Drive with cortex, AeroPro Drive with active Cortex, and Pure Drive with Active cortex. That’s what makes it all pro stock. Because they are doing specific production runs for the Pro’s of racquets that are no longer made and sold at the retail level.
And you probably can have them, just need to buy enough. For example, Wilson Blade 2013, 2015 and CV are all still/again being sold by a big European retailer with serial numbers from actual production. I have a new Blade 2015 from 2019 and an old one, there is not the slightest visible difference except the current production number and the new (rectangular) grip size sticker on that new "pro stock" 2015 Blade.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
And you probably can have them, just need to buy enough. For example, Wilson Blade 2013, 2015 and CV are all still/again being sold by a big European retailer with serial numbers from actual production. I have a new Blade 2015 from 2019 and an old one, there is not the slightest visible difference except the current production number and the new (rectangular) grip size sticker on that new "pro stock" 2015 Blade.
I do not think this is the case. Probably the leftovers or something.
The manufacturer may bring back some old frames (Head MG Radical MP and OS example, Wilson 6.1 95 example) however, I would be surprised if they would bring 3 consecutive old generations (all different) back while existing generation is selling strong.
 

anarosevoli

Rookie
I do not think this is the case. Probably the leftovers or something.
The manufacturer may bring back some old frames (Head MG Radical MP and OS example, Wilson 6.1 95 example) however, I would be surprised if they would bring 3 consecutive old generations (all different) back while existing generation is selling strong.
It is the case, the numbers are from current production! I don't think they store painted hairpins and put the badges on them 5 years later... You can even check the numbers in stock in that online shop by putting multiple in the bag, they are really high (hundreds) and sometimes even increase. Absolutely no doubt possible.
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
And you probably can have them, just need to buy enough. For example, Wilson Blade 2013, 2015 and CV are all still/again being sold by a big European retailer with serial numbers from actual production. I have a new Blade 2015 from 2019 and an old one, there is not the slightest visible difference except the current production number and the new (rectangular) grip size sticker on that new "pro stock" 2015 Blade.
That’s called an SMU. If a retailer is willing to put a big enough order in then the racquet company is willing to do this. An example is TW with the many Wilson Pro Staff 85 6.0 that has been done over the years. A pro stock racquet is specific production for the pros that does not go into the retail chain. It can be paint jobs, it can be custom molds, it can be standard mold with a custom layup and custom drill pattern that was not available at retail. I can remember in the mid 1990’s in Ft Lauderdale at a tennis academy a player on the ATP tour was using a Yonex R-22 with the paint job of a Yonex RD-7. A lot of you people will say this is an off the shelf racquet because it’s just a standard R-22. However the R-22 was discontinued at retail and was painted to look like something else That Yonex was marketing at the time. So, yes paint job racquets are also Pro Stock because they were only for the pros and NOT intended to be sold that way to the public.
 
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mtommer

Hall of Fame
What the heck are you talking about? You are now trying to prove some point that does not exist and you know that.
If the racket was produced in 2008 and discontinued in retail sales but still produced under a different PJ (that may slightly alter its original weight, etc.) and only offered to pro players, it is a Pro Stock, end of story.
And if I take one of my M-Fil 200s and paint it to look like CX Tour 200, prove it's not a pro stock. Go ahead, prove it. You can't, you won't. Then, I'll sell it to you for, oh, say $400 and you'll buy it and you'll get on these forums and extoll the virtues of your "pro stock" racquet and how it's ever so great blah, blah, blah.....all from a retail racquet.

I am showing a valid point. The point is that pro stock racquets, being retail racquets, are no big deal and don't merit an ounce of the attention they get because they are literally nothing special. That people treat them otherwise is the talking point on TTW by and large and the only reason posters give pro stock the attention it gets. It is the essence of "those two are sleeping together." The fact of this phrase merely means two people sleeping together, yet we all know what it really means.

You may have a SIMILAR thing that Kenin is using or a similar thing that Simon is using or that Rafa is using, however, you cannot get the same thing they are using today nor you could get it back then when it was sold as the retail.
BS. People could. People did. Every time they bought it. That it came from one location vs another is moot. Same frame.
 

jmnk

Hall of Fame
yes I am asking you, because @vsbabolat made it very clear that prostock is any racket that is not available to the general public but is available to the pro players
and you came up with your silly example of but what if I can still buy a PD 2018 or what if I bought a racket 15 years ago
ok, since you are asking me. The example is purposely silly to illustrate the point.
I'm not involved with any tennis racket brand or manufacturing, so take it for what you think it is worth

1. apparently over time the graphite / resin matrix develops cracks, so the racket that you purchased (theoretically) in 1995, by now should have developed cracks and therefore softened, which means that it will be "flexier", or given all else being equal, it will generate less pace / spin when hitting the ball
That very well may be. Two points though.
My racket purchased in 1995 has never been used so no cracks/softening happened. It therefore is exactly like the one manufacturer made today for a pro.
It's been stated that some pros actually have the rackets strung hundreds of time to soften them before they use them - so if my racket has softened over the years it resembles those pros frames even more.

2. lucky you if you purchased some rackets in 1995 and kept them "pristine". The thing is, I for example can't go to a store, be it brick & mortar or online like TTW and order that frame.
So, when a pro player gets that racket, freshly produced in 2020 or 2021 it is unavailable to the public, but it is available to the pro player.
Isn't this a "pro stock" frame?
It seems you and @vsbabolat think such racket is a 'pro stock' frame. And that's perfectly cool with me. It just means that if I did have such pristine racket purchased in 1995 I would have had a 'pro stock'. And I would have never thought that since I bought is at a retail store. Since I have quite a few such rackets from the past collected over the years apparently I have quite a collection of 'pro stock' frames.

3. leaving the hyperbole aside.
While today you might still find the Pure Drive in 2018 paint job, in 1 or 2 years down the line you'll probably not be able to find them anymore.
At the same time, a pro player will still have access to the PD 2018. Is it a "pro stock" now?
It seems you and @vsbabolat think such racket is a 'pro stock' frame. It means that _any racket used by a pro that such pro still gets it via special channels_ becomes a 'pro stock' the moment it goes out of 'regular' production. Since pretty much any racket goes out of production all you need to have a 'pro stock' is to buy a racket used by a pro today, while it is still available, and wait. It also means that there's _nothing special_ about such 'pro stock' as it is literally the exact racket anyone can buy.

4. Now let's take the #3 and develop it a notch further.
A pro player plays with a PD 2018 painted like PD 2020/ 2021.
Say I have seen how this pro player plays, fell in love with the style and want to purchase that frame.
Where can I go today, and purchase that PD 2018 in a PD 2020/ 2021 paintjob?
this is where for me that PD 2018 painted like PD 2020/ 2021 is not available, but it is available for a pro player.
"Pro Stock"?
It seems you and @vsbabolat think such racket is a 'pro stock' frame. And I can certainly see the point because indeed a mere mortal can't just go to a store and get such racket. Again, it however means that there's _nothing special_ about such 'pro stock' as it is literally the exact racket except for the paint. If you think that paint makes a difference as to how a racket plays - so be it. My argument is less about when you can use the label 'pro stock' and more about whether 'pro stock' has some magic properties not present in 'regular' rackets. You are essentially saying that 'pro stock', at least the types we are discussing here, are 'different paint wise' but exactly the same material, shape, drilling, manufacturing, etc as any retail racket. Which is perfectly cool.

5. Let's take the #4 and develop it a bit.
Say this pro player plays another 10 years with the same PD 2018 painted like PD 2020/ 2021.
If today I could still buy a new PD 2018, in the PD 2018 paintjob, where can I buy a "pristine" PD 2018 10 years down the line?
and where can I buy the PD 2018 10 years down the line in the paintjob that will be used by this player 10 years down the line?
same as above. I see your point. My point is that per this thinking 'pro stock' has no special properties, it is only painted differently. It is no different than saying that a truly retail racket a given low level pro plays with becomes a 'pro stock' because he scratched it certain way. I mean, a pro plays with it, and you can't buy it anywhere scratched that way...........
 

1HBHfanatic

Legend
-"What we've got here is failure to communicate."!! :giggle:

-part of the issue is that we have people confusing: touring-PROS and racquet-contracted-PROS!!

-both types of "PROS" are different, in the amount of money/gear they can get
-retail frames are around $150
-pro-stock painted/spec'd-out for a "pro-player" is near $1000

-the top tier name professionals ,(contract pros) use "pro-stock frames" (frames not/no-longer available to the general public), specifically CUSTOM to that players SPECS. (UNDER CONTRACT)!, but painted how ever the manufacturer wants it that Year
-touring pros (on a budget), ex-college-players (not under racket contract) are playing with what ever racquet they like/can afford/can accumulate on their own
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
And if I take one of my M-Fil 200s and paint it to look like CX Tour 200, prove it's not a pro stock. Go ahead, prove it. You can't, you won't. Then, I'll sell it to you for, oh, say $400 and you'll buy it and you'll get on these forums and extoll the virtues of your "pro stock" racquet and how it's ever so great blah, blah, blah.....all from a retail racquet.

I am showing a valid point. The point is that pro stock racquets, being retail racquets, are no big deal and don't merit an ounce of the attention they get because they are literally nothing special. That people treat them otherwise is the talking point on TTW by and large and the only reason posters give pro stock the attention it gets. It is the essence of "those two are sleeping together." The fact of this phrase merely means two people sleeping together, yet we all know what it really means.


BS. People could. People did. Every time they bought it. That it came from one location vs another is moot. Same frame.
You are mixing a few things here and you have no idea what are you talking about.
But I’ll let you glow in your own world...
 
Aren't "most pros" just barely scratching by a living trying to make their tennis careers work? It should then be logical that 1) they have not been pros long enough to have an out of date frame that they need to continue to use and have the company repaint and 2) they may not have the more involved sponsorship deals in which they get their pick of special pro stock models, instead of having to choose among whatever frames the racquet companies give them.
 

Dragy

Legend
And if I take one of my M-Fil 200s and paint it to look like CX Tour 200, prove it's not a pro stock. Go ahead, prove it. You can't, you won't. Then, I'll sell it to you for, oh, say $400 and you'll buy it and you'll get on these forums and extoll the virtues of your "pro stock" racquet and how it's ever so great blah, blah, blah.....all from a retail racquet.
What you describe here is fraud, nothing more... Now if you prefer to play with M-Fil 200, and you can get several of them new, whatever paintjob, today, that would be equal to pro-stock available to pros.
Some people liked DR 98. Not available anymore. 2015 Blade. Well, some shop has stock - great. Some old Prestige. Original APD. Pure Control. Pros can have any today and tomorrow. We cannot but from secondary market.
 

WNB93

Rookie
Don't think you got that right all the way...
First of all, plenty of sponsored players outside of top 100 do get all kinds of Pro stocks (in Head terms the TGT and PT frames), difference is the amount of frames and a check that comes along with that (just like everything else in life).

Second, again, to use the Head example, Head has created the TGT version, pro stock version of the Retail frame, not because they put some magic dust in it (exactly the same layup as retail, same factories) but to allow for wide range customization and to allow players to test and adjust as needed. FYI, I've had a few of Stan's 95d uncustomized frames and Yonex does the same thing -- these were not fully foam filled and were about 20g lighter than the retail 95d.

The "PT" and H19/H22/H25/P25/...frames are also offered to a broader range then top XX players.
Maybe Yonex did that for Stan because he uses a heavy racket. Was yours an actual match used racket? Whatever pro stock Yonex or Babolat I got my hands on (that is played on tour) it was just made to the exact specs that the player wanted and in the latest paint job. That's it. I've compared their version with a retail version with added lead and it's the same. They said the same.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
What you describe here is fraud, nothing more
Fraud? However do you mean? I can literally prove that my racquet is the same as the other racquets. Allowing for mfg tolerances, what do you want? Shear strength test? Compression, elongation, deformation, delamination strength, ductility, elasticity, crush, x-ray, ultrasound, tensile.....
 

onkystomper

Hall of Fame
And if I take one of my M-Fil 200s and paint it to look like CX Tour 200, prove it's not a pro stock. Go ahead, prove it. You can't, you won't. Then, I'll sell it to you for, oh, say $400 and you'll buy it and you'll get on these forums and extoll the virtues of your "pro stock" racquet and how it's ever so great blah, blah, blah.....all from a retail racquet.

I am showing a valid point. The point is that pro stock racquets, being retail racquets, are no big deal and don't merit an ounce of the attention they get because they are literally nothing special. That people treat them otherwise is the talking point on TTW by and large and the only reason posters give pro stock the attention it gets. It is the essence of "those two are sleeping together." The fact of this phrase merely means two people sleeping together, yet we all know what it really means.

You are changing the argument.. No one (well I am not) saying that having a racket that is painted like a different racket makes it any better or worse than the same retail racket. What the point is, as soon as you obtain a racket that is only made available to pro players e.g. a paintjob. custom mould, custom layup you have a pro stock frame. The worth of them is a totally different subject but as with everything, something is worth what someone else will pay for it.

And no I am not saying a frame from a pro player that is current paint and retail specs off shelf but they have customized it with lead or a grip etc is pro stock because that is just a customized frame. But a Head frame made 30g lighter and then customized is again something you can not buy and is therefore pro stock.
 

Dragy

Legend
Fraud? However do you mean? I can literally prove that my racquet is the same as the other racquets. Allowing for mfg tolerances, what do you want? Shear strength test? Compression, elongation, deformation, delamination strength, ductility, elasticity, crush, x-ray, ultrasound, tensile.....
Well, I supposed you were talking used frame - sorry for misunderstanding!
The question is, would you have Biomimetic 200 for me?
 

mhkeuns

Hall of Fame
I’ve had three ProStock frames - 1. Mardy Fish’s personal stick that was painted to look like the BLX Six One 95 (*it seemed like a heavily modified extended length Pro Staff. 2. Pro Stock Six One 95 (*metallic paint) 3. H19 with the Blade 97S paint job (18x20 string pattern.

Except for Mardy Fish’s personal stick (*which was a heavily modded retail stick), the other two pro stock frames felt super flexible and felt completely different from the retail versions.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about, but it does seem that some pros use the modified retail frames, whereas some players will use the pro stock frames that are not available in retail. I guess it all depends on each player’s preference. Because the two pro stock frames were so flexible, my initial guess was that many pros use the most flexible frames they can handle to protect their arms from playing hours of tennis everyday.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
You are changing the argument.. No one (well I am not) saying that having a racket that is painted like a different racket makes it any better or worse than the same retail racket.
What I'm saying is that here on TTW, over the years and many threads, few seem to believe that a paintjob racquet can be the same as a retail racquet. That belief and the veneration of pro player sticks HAS shaped the definition of what constitutes "pro-stock", here on TTW. Outside of TTW that definition may change but here on TTW? Nope.
 

Dragy

Legend
I’ve had three ProStock frames - 1. Mardy Fish’s personal stick that was painted to look like the BLX Six One 95 (*it seemed like a heavily modified extended length Pro Staff. 2. Pro Stock Six One 95 (*metallic paint) 3. H19 with the Blade 97S paint job (18x20 string pattern.

Except for Mardy Fish’s personal stick (*which was a heavily modded retail stick), the other two pro stock frames felt super flexible and felt completely different from the retail versions.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about, but it does seem that some pros use the modified retail frames, whereas some players will use the pro stock frames that are not available in retail. I guess it all depends on each player’s preference. Because the two pro stock frames were so flexible, my initial guess was that many pros use the most flexible frames they can handle to protect their arms from playing hours of tennis everyday.
Didn't you put them into RDC to get actual stiffness? Also, may it be associated with them being heavily used before arriving to you, where some extra flex sources from?
 

onkystomper

Hall of Fame
What I'm saying is that here on TTW, over the years and many threads, few seem to believe that a paintjob racquet can be the same as a retail racquet. That belief and the veneration of pro player sticks HAS shaped the definition of what constitutes "pro-stock", here on TTW. Outside of TTW that definition may change but here on TTW? Nope.
I can not control other peoples belief systems either on TTW or elsewhere. But putting aside perceived worth or perceived quality of product, any frame that has been produced solely for professionals would sit in the category of pro stock / stock for professionals.

As for peoples beliefs that a tennis racket is anything other than a tennis racket I do not wish to venture into that area.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
Well, I supposed you were talking used frame - sorry for misunderstanding!
The question is, would you have Biomimetic 200 for me?
Absolutely. Just give me three weeks to sand down a frame and get all the details of the Biomimetic 200 paint perfect. (I am kidding)
 

mhkeuns

Hall of Fame
Didn't you put them into RDC to get actual stiffness? Also, may it be associated with them being heavily used before arriving to you, where some extra flex sources from?
I only have the H19 now. Putting it under RDC makes sense. Never really been a detailed person equipment wise, so it didn’t really enter my mind. It was more of an “Wow, this is different!” kind of a reaction when I hit with them for the first time,

I thought the H19 felt like a super flexible Prestige MP (*flexible from the throat all the way to the tip). It also has pallets. So, I guessed that it was some sort of a copy of a Head’s frame. This frame makes the harshest poly feel like playing with a full bed of natural gut.

Do I play better with it? Unfortunately the same. I can beat the players I usually beat but does not help me at all when faced against better players. Unless someone is purely going for some specific feel, I don’t think it’s worth the price tag.
 

Dragy

Legend
I thought the H19 felt like a super flexible Prestige MP (*flexible from the throat all the way to the tip). It also has pallets. So, I guessed that it was some sort of a copy of a Head’s frame. This frame makes the harshest poly feel like playing with a full bed of natural gut.
I'm playing with UTs which are H19 mold at ~62RA strung measured on RDC. They to feel flexy to me compared to Ezone DRs I used previously. YouTek Radical MP should be softer, but definitely doesn't feel like. I wonder how much flexier pro stock H19 might be :unsure:
Actually, although I feel the flex in warmups, I absolutely don't remember it later into the session. Sometimes it's harsh (Mishits? Full bed poly...), sometimes it feels like crunching at hit :-D good touch though on softer shots.
 

mtommer

Hall of Fame
As for peoples beliefs that a tennis racket is anything other than a tennis racket I do not wish to venture into that area.
By and large I agree with you on this. Personally, I have no interest in pro frames, strings, tensions, well, anything about pro gear other than maybe a nice pattern/color of a shirt or something I like.
 

mhkeuns

Hall of Fame
I'm playing with UTs which are H19 mold at ~62RA strung measured on RDC. They to feel flexy to me compared to Ezone DRs I used previously. YouTek Radical MP should be softer, but definitely doesn't feel like. I wonder how much flexier pro stock H19 might be :unsure:
Actually, although I feel the flex in warmups, I absolutely don't remember it later into the session. Sometimes it's harsh (Mishits? Full bed poly...), sometimes it feels like crunching at hit :-D good touch though on softer shots.
I absolutely love the Ultra Tour. It, to me, is an update/upgrade to the H19. It feels firmer in the right places for more pin-point & easier overall play. Also, it still has the best feel, imo.
 

blablavla

Legend
What I'm saying is that here on TTW, over the years and many threads, few seem to believe that a paintjob racquet can be the same as a retail racquet. That belief and the veneration of pro player sticks HAS shaped the definition of what constitutes "pro-stock", here on TTW. Outside of TTW that definition may change but here on TTW? Nope.
you are likely barking at the wrong tree, as you are now arguing precisely with folks that say "prostock" doesn't necessarily have some magical unicorn powder, it can easily be an older frame painted to look like a new offering for the sake of driving sales of the new model

look at Nadal for example.
he plays with a frame that was available to the public
today, that frame is not available in the paintjob he uses
but he gets fresh frames so to speak, which makes it pro stock

then you have Novak frame, that is something that apparently was never available to the public and painted to look like Speed.

but the irony is, if one of the today juniors who play with Speed, will become a say #1 player, and will keep getting Speed frames in 2031, painted like something else, will that Speed in 2031 be a pro stock or not?
 

Dragy

Legend
then you have Novak frame, that is something that apparently was never available to the public and painted to look like Speed.

but the irony is, if one of the today juniors who play with Speed, will become a say #1 player, and will keep getting Speed frames in 2031, painted like something else, will that Speed in 2031 be a pro stock or not?
I think Novak stick painted as Speed allowed to push a very good product to the market, finally. With number of younger pros adopting it as their weapon of choice. And yes, if they continue producing some of current Speeds without offering them retail, they'll be pro stock...
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Maybe Yonex did that for Stan because he uses a heavy racket. Was yours an actual match used racket? Whatever pro stock Yonex or Babolat I got my hands on (that is played on tour) it was just made to the exact specs that the player wanted and in the latest paint job. That's it. I've compared their version with a retail version with added lead and it's the same. They said the same.
As I mentioned, it was uncustomized Pro stock of 95d. Different than the retail, not match used.
If you start with the retail and add leather and lead the way Stan/P1 does, and silicone in the handle, I don't think you would arrive at his spec...
 
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