Most stamina player of all time

[chrischris]

I don't see how Nadal be in that group and Federer not when Nadal has shown dozens of times that both the match he's playing has got to him or that the match from the day before is having an effect on him?

- How many times has Federer called for a trainer in what is just an effort to delay play?
- How many times have you seen Federer keeled over between points?
- How many times have you seen Federer look like death warmed up the day after a hard match?
- How many times has Federer had to pull out of a tournament before it started to get more recovery from the previous one?

No doubt Nadal is a supremely fit guy but he does those things above 10 times more often than Federer.

One needs only consider the differnece in playing style to have the answer. Feds playing style is 11 times more efficient than Rafas.

 

[hoodjem]

One needs only consider the differnece in playing style to have the answer. Feds playing style is 11 times more efficient than Rafas.

Interesting point.

Does this mean Federer has more stamina or less stamina?

 

[pc1]

Interesting point.

Does this mean Federer has more stamina or less stamina?

Maybe checking the head to head in their career in long matches may help.

Versus Roger FEDERER (SUI)
Year Tournament Round Surface Winner Score
2004 Miami 32 Hard (O) R.NADAL 6-3 6-3
2005 Miami FR Hard (O) R.FEDERER 6-2 7-6(4) 6-7(5) 3-6 1-6
2005 French Open SF Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-3
2006 Dubai FR Hard (O) R.NADAL 2-6 6-4 6-4
2006 Monte Carlo FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-2 6-7(2) 6-3 7-6(5)
2006 Rome FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5)
2006 French Open FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 1-6 6-1 6-4 7-6(4)
2006 Wimbledon FR Grass (O) R.FEDERER 0-6 6-7(5) 7-6(2) 3-6
2006 Tennis Masters Cup SF Hard (I) R.FEDERER 4-6 5-7
2007 Monte Carlo FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-4 6-4
2007 Hamburg FR Clay (O) R.FEDERER 6-2 2-6 0-6
2007 French Open FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-3 4-6 6-3 6-4
2007 Wimbledon FR Grass (O) R.FEDERER 6-7(7) 6-4 6-7(3) 6-2 2-6
2007 Tennis Masters Cup SF Hard (I) R.FEDERER 4-6 1-6
2008 Monte Carlo FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 7-5 7-5
2008 Hamburg FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 7-5 6-7(3) 6-3
2008 French Open FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-1 6-3 6-0
2008 Wimbledon FR Grass (O) R.NADAL 6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7
2009 Australian Open FR Hard (O) R.NADAL 7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2
2009 Madrid FR Clay (O) R.FEDERER 4-6 4-6
2010 Madrid FR Clay (O) R.NADAL 6-4 7-6(5)
2010 ATP World Tour Finals FR Hard (I) R.FEDERER 3-6 6-3 1-6
2011 Miami SF Hard (O) R.NADAL 6-3 6-2

I think the record in five set matches in 3-2 in favor of Nadal if that means anything assuming I counted right.

 

[pc1]

What is the reason why you pick him? Was there a lot of running and long rallies back then? Was his peers always gassed out before him?

And I heard Pancho was 6'4". Not too many player has great stamina at this size.

Pancho was legendary in his ability in close long matches. He also had a serve that was considered arguably the greatest ever not just for efficiency but for how little it took out of him. Vic Braden the famous tennis coach and analyst has written that Gonzalez could still be serving bombs in the fifth set with very little effort.

I do think some may have a bit more stamina than Pancho Gonzalez like a Laver, Hoad or Borg among others but from what I've read the Gonzalez stamina was excellent and I think like a Sampras, he could rest during his return games because he could hold serve so easily. Check out the video on Gonzalez here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd0gJzm_EQY

You also have to take into account that this guy used to play head to head tours in which they were constantly playing and moving from town to town. Jack Kramer wrote that when Gonzalez and Lew Hoad played the head the head tours at best of five, it was always going to five sets and they had to switch it to best of three to prevent them from killing themselves. You have to develop stamina in these situations.

 

[TMF]

One needs only consider the differnece in playing style to have the answer. Feds playing style is 11 times more efficient than Rafas.

You cannot fault for the player that chose to play a style that's less taxing on the body. Perhaps Rafa cannot copy the same style as Fed to be successful. Every player is unique and you cannot ask any player to imitate any player he wants to. Santoro style doesn't put much stress on his body and he had a long healthy career. But no one would say he's as fit or have stamina than some of the very best. It's just his style that kept him going.

 

[dominikk1985]

You cannot fault for the player that chose to play a style that's less taxing on the body. Perhaps Rafa cannot copy the same style as Fed to be successful. Every player is unique and you cannot ask any player to imitate any player he wants to. Santoro style doesn't put much stress on his body and he had a long healthy career. But no one would say he's as fit or have stamina than some of the very best. It's just his style that kept him going.

I think no one would doubt that santoro was extremely fit. that guy could run like hell for hours.

I would not consider nadal as that fit. he is extremely fast but other guys are more durable. nadal sometimes was tired after long matches.

I think some of his fellow countrymen where much more durable. how about corretja? he could easily go for hours.

 

[World Beater]

Interesting point.

Does this mean Federer has more stamina or less stamina?

what matters is the net result.

It doesnt matter that nadal may have more peak stamina capacity if he uses more capacity than federer to play a set.

We are talking about stamina playing a tennis match. Not the stamina requried to run a marathon...and even then federer's running efficiency might be better.

 

[World Beater]

I agree.. Although if that's the measurement criteria then there is a case to be made that Federer > Nadal in single match category. Plenty of time I've seen Nadal almost run ragged - in the Mimai final against Djokovic even - a level which I've not seen Federer reach nearly as often... most likely because Federer expends less energy to play his matches than Nadal.

As you also say, Federer's next day bounce-back is tremendous and his ability to play right at the top without getting injured in a match is unrivalled.

Federer is not the type of player who generally gives away physical frailty. This is where he is different to djokovic and nadal. Where djoko and nadal bend over and gasp for air like they are about to die. Federer is stone faced, but he is dying inside - he is just doesnt give it away as easy.

Players are not able to easily perceive his physical fatigue...but that doesnt mean that federer isnt tired.

The best way to analyze federer's fatigue is to observe his footwork and movement.

In AO2005, safin was definitely the fresher of the two players in the 5th set. Federer's feet were hurting. I recall him asking for the trainer as well. Peter lundgren, the coach of safin at the time was well aware of federer's feet fatigue once pushed into a long physical match. Lundgren correctly called federer's foot problems, and federer confessed after the match that he had been suffering from achy feet in the 5th set.

In 2008 wimbledon, federer's footwork started to deteriorate in the 5th set and he made some wild fh misses that contributed to him getting broken.

nadal was clearly the fitter of the two despite federer having all the momentum in the 5th set.

Federer's efficiency is incredible though...which is why he can bounce back after tough matches and play well because his game does not desire as much energy expenditure as the other guys.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Players are not able to easily perceive his physical fatigue...but that doesnt mean that federer isnt tired.

For sure. But repeated calling of trainers etc is somewhat of an indication of frailty (or being a hypochondriac)'

...In 2008 wimbledon, federer's footwork started to deteriorate in the 5th set and he made some wild fh misses that contributed to him getting broken.

nadal was clearly the fitter of the two despite federer having all the momentum in the 5th set.

He lost primarily because he could hardly see the ball - the tiredness contributed for sure but it wasn't the reason he lost imo. I was there and it was so dark I couldn't believe they were still playing tennis.

 

[World Beater]

For sure. But repeated calling of trainers etc is somewhat of an indication of frailty (or being a hypochondriac)'


He lost primarily because he could hardly see the ball - the tiredness contributed for sure but it wasn't the reason he lost imo. I was there and it was so dark I couldn't believe they were still playing tennis.

your responses are fair.

let me just end it by saying that federer's footwork is not going to be as crisp as it will be earlier on in the match. This of course applies to all players, however, the impact on federer is going to higher IMO. Federer depends on his footwork more than other players. Federer is a precision players in comparison to say nadal who hits with brute topspin and has higher margin for error.

If the footwork is off a little bit, the impact to him is larger than nadal because his game is lower % in general and depends on much more precise movements and strikes rather than brute topspin swipes at the ball / retrieving ability.

The fact that federer doesnt call the trainer unless he really needs it is more a reflection of his personality than his physical state.

 

[Datacipher]

but in all those years he never had to retire a match or lost because of tiredness (unlike nadal). I would say federer is the fittest player of all time.

Nah. I don't remember him retiring from a match, but he has withdrawn during a tournament, and certainly withdrawn before tournies. I think his fitness is obviously excellent, though it has varied in quality over the years, at times...he has definitely looked tired....yes, it's subtle, but it's there clearly. He can cover it up with his style to some degree, often...as Worldbeater just mentioned, it shows through a tiny bit in footwork = shanks + UE + pulling trigger to early. It's a bit subjective...but....I have seen it I promise....

As WB noted, you never see Fed bent over weezing....I think he would avoid this desperately...he likes his image...in this case it's not a bad idea...he likes to have a psychological advantage...his aerobic/anaerobic capability seem good, usually his fitness problems show through more as fatique/weakness/sloppiness.....more of an out of glycogen thing....

In fact, just google "federer tired" to see various match reports where people felt he looked tired. I say this because again, it's subjective...but many have believed they've seen it....it's there.

 

[Datacipher]

The fact that federer doesnt call the trainer unless he really needs it is more a reflection of his personality than his physical state.

As I was just posting above....he doesn't like to show any weakness out there....I think he'd avoid a trainer until absolutely necessary....it was all part of his image of casual dominance and effortlessness for a long time. It certainly helped him gain a mental edge.

 

[World Beater]

As I was just posting above....he doesn't like to show any weakness out there....I think he'd avoid a trainer until absolutely necessary....it was all part of his image of casual dominance and effortlessness for a long time. It certainly helped him gain a mental edge.

yep agreed.

Federer is definitely concerned with his image...almost narcisstic. i dont fault him for it. I mean, he has some seriously devoted fans out there. If others can appreciate his tennis, i guess he is entitled to a certain degree as well. He definitely has embraced the image that nike, wilson and the atp has crafted for him. Grace under pressure, the stylish swiss and desperately wants to follow in the footsteps of his idols before him - sampras, laver etc.

however, beneath that cool exterior, there is a volcano underneath ready to erupt. the fact that his tournament victory celebrations are so effusive and incontrast to his match demeanor almost support this.

I also havent seen a great player like him be so sensitive to criticism. He has this almost snappy like demeanor in press conferences when journalists are just doing their jobs trying to ask questions about his mindset and challenges.

 

[pc1]

yep agreed.

Federer is definitely concerned with his image...almost narcisstic. i dont fault him for it. I mean, he has some seriously devoted fans out there. If others can appreciate his tennis, i guess he is entitled to a certain degree as well. He definitely has embraced the image that nike, wilson and the atp has crafted for him. Grace under pressure, the stylish swiss and desperately wants to follow in the footsteps of his idols before him - sampras, laver etc.

however, beneath that cool exterior, there is a volcano underneath ready to erupt. the fact that his tournament victory celebrations are so effusive and incontrast to his match demeanor almost support this.

I also havent seen a great player like him be so sensitive to criticism. He has this almost snappy like demeanor in press conferences when journalists are just doing their jobs trying to ask questions about his mindset and challenges.

I would guess that after constantly being called the best ever by the press that it's hard to accept questions of even slight negativity. You can't blame him.

 

[Limibeans]

It's hard to say because you'd need to look at a players whole tournament draw. You cant take the #1 seed and say "omg wao he just played a 5 setter" and say hes better than the bottom seeds who had to go through every single round, even if they lose in the quarters.

When I define greatest stamina I would look at who played the most points in the tournament starting with who played the most days straight.

You're better off being a wildcard than being the bottom seed. At least you'll be rested for the most part.

 

[Datacipher]

I would guess that after constantly being called the best ever by the press that it's hard to accept questions of even slight negativity. You can't blame him.

Yes, I agree with you and WB....and as I said, in the context of on-court image...I have no criticism...it doesn't hurt, and it isn't strange to foster an on-court image for opponents. All the silly fashionista stuf....well that I could live wihout, and it certainly isn't in-line with my sensibilities, but that's his choice as well.

And yes...he may be somewhat constrained by his fans....the most devoted of which, are not so much "tennis" fans...as Roger fans...(not isolated to him of course....it's common among all the most-rabid followers of an athlete...)

I think the lurking "uncoolness" comes out most in the sniping(as mentioned by WB), and the occasional on-court collapse.

Those are the moments where he seems least cucumber cool to me.