Mouratoglou: straight arm is the ideal position for the FH

[ubercat]

OK I always thought the whole kinetic chain thing was an over reach. But put your weight into the shot has to be true just like it is in boxing.

 

[ballmachineguy]

OK I always thought the whole kinetic chain thing was an over reach. But put your weight into the shot has to be true just like it is in boxing.

You are punching another human with your fist. You don’t knock them 60ft away like a tennis ball, you lean in to have a good base to not knock yourself backwards. Hitting a 2oz ball does not take moving your weight 1mph forward into hitting the ball. If you are trying to push a disabled car down the street, you get your feet behind you and lean into it or you’d push yourself over backward. If you are swatting a fly, not necessary.

 

[Curious]

Maybe a racket is not really heavier enough than a frisbee to throw it much differently. I can see Patrick’s point. Though I doubt he’ll deny the initial jolt from the body to trigger that “wrist swing”.

 

[zill]

Maybe a racket is not really heavier enough than a frisbee to throw it much differently. I can see Patrick’s point. Though I doubt he’ll deny the initial jolt from the body to trigger that “wrist swing”.

Don't think about throwing a ball, stone nor frisbee. Just swing a racquet to hit a tennis ball, that is all, no complications please. After you have mastered how to swing a tennis racquet to hit a tennis ball then you can look at throwing, balls, stones, frisbees etc.

 

[Curious]

Don't think about throwing a ball, stone nor frisbee. Just swing a racquet to hit a tennis ball, that is all, no complications please. After you have mastered how to swing a tennis racquet to hit a tennis ball then you can look at throwing, balls, stones, frisbees etc.

I’m not keen to discuss with you anymore.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Practical logic.

He is No. #1, so whatever he does should be considered ideal.

Does that mean when the number one position changes between - oh I don't know, for arguments sake let's go with Djokovic and Alcaraz - that the "ideal" forehand technique to copy also changes? That is really going to make life tough!

 

[optic yellow]

Don't think about throwing a ball, stone nor frisbee. Just swing a racquet to hit a tennis ball, that is all, no complications please. After you have mastered how to swing a tennis racquet to hit a tennis ball then you can look at throwing, balls, stones, frisbees etc.

It's valid for someone who has a better mastery of similar motions to use those as a lens for understanding the tennis forehand.

 

[zill]

It's valid for someone who has a better mastery of similar motions to use those as a lens for understanding the tennis forehand.

My proposition is that it’s invalid. And further harms the learning of the actual motion under investigation.

There is an optimal way to throw a stone, frisbee, ball. Learn those optimal ways individually if your interested in so. Same with hitting a tennis ball. It may be the case that you will learn it quicker having prior experience in a related sport/motion. But don’t merge the two.

 

[zill]

It's valid for someone who has a better mastery of similar motions to use those as a lens for understanding the tennis forehand.

Actually I've got a direct counter example to this. I switched to the 2hb two years ago. Learnt it from scratch and came up with steps to hit it. Now perfectly happy with it.

One day randomly decided to play golf for the first time in 22 years and 22 years ago was the first time I played golf so only the second time in my life. Now armed with the knowledge of how to hit a 2hb I thought I would be good at golf also remembering how excellent a golfer Nadal is. I naively thought it may be due to Nadal using a 2hb which boosted his golf abilities.

Went up to drive the ball with the 2hb technique firmly in my mind, use of the torso then both arms one after the other separately .... did not drive a single ball cleanly. A shocker of a day.

 

[optic yellow]

Actually I've got a direct counter example to this. I switched to the 2hb two years ago. Learnt it from scratch and came up with steps to hit it. Now perfectly happy with it.

One day randomly decided to play golf for the first time in 22 years and 22 years ago was the first time I played golf so only the second time in my life. Now armed with the knowledge of how to hit a 2hb I thought I would be good at golf also remembering how excellent a golfer Nadal is. I naively thought it may be due to Nadal using a 2hb which boosted his golf abilities.

Went up to drive the ball with the 2hb technique firmly in my mind, use of the torso then both arms one after the other separately .... did not drive a single ball cleanly. A shocker of a day.

This is not a great counterexample:

a) Nadal would not be held up by most people as a great example of a celebrity athlete golf swing. He makes it work but the form is ugly and unconventional.

b) The 2HBH is a lefty swing. Unless you are like Nadal and learned tennis opposite your dominant hand, why are you playing golf lefty?

c) Unless you are digging a low ball with a near vertical racquet face, a tennis swing does not excellently approximation of the golf swing. You can only really look for abstract conceptual overlap (things like using torso, letting lag develop, etc) in other cases.

d) Even in those cases, you do not want to think about sequencing the arms so distinctly when you are swinging a golf club. The FH, even though it does not have the same 2H grip, is just as useful because it promotes the feeling of requisite fluidity.

I'm glad you got back into golf though; you should keep it up! It is a great complement to tennis.

 

[zill]

This is not a great counterexample:

a) Nadal would not be held up by most people as a great example of a celebrity athlete golf swing. He makes it work but the form is ugly and unconventional.

b) The 2HBH is a lefty swing. Unless you are like Nadal and learned tennis opposite your dominant hand, why are you playing golf lefty?

c) Unless you are digging a low ball with a near vertical racquet face, a tennis swing does not excellently approximation of the golf swing. You can only really look for abstract conceptual overlap (things like using torso, letting lag develop, etc) in other cases.

d) Even in those cases, you do not want to think about sequencing the arms so distinctly when you are swinging a golf club. The FH, even though it does not have the same 2H grip, is just as useful because it promotes the feeling of requisite fluidity.

I'm glad you got back into golf though; you should keep it up! It is a great complement to tennis.

That's what I was doing but did not work. There must be nuisances in golf not present in tennis. So if I was to learn golf I would NOT think about tennis at all and start from scratch.

 

[optic yellow]

That's what I was doing but did not work. There must be nuisances in golf not present in tennis. So if I was to learn golf I would NOT think about tennis at all and start from scratch.

Not quite fully abstract:

with the 2hb technique firmly in my mind, use of the torso then both arms one after the other separately ....

There are nuances that are different. Coming from a golf background I was able to intuitively develop a very nasty topspin draw FH off low balls even while I was completely incapable of doing anything but bunting or slicing something in the "ideal" hitting zone. It's mostly that the implements are not the same and do not get that close to feeling the same unless you are scooping with the tennis racquet.

 

[zill]

Not quite fully abstract:


There are nuances that are different. Coming from a golf background I was able to intuitively develop a very nasty topspin draw FH off low balls even while I was completely incapable of doing anything but bunting or slicing something in the "ideal" hitting zone. It's mostly that the implements are not the same and do not get that close to feeling the same unless you are scooping with the tennis racquet.

I have no idea how you could apply tennis ideas to golf apart from the use of the torso. Even then the details are probably different.

 

[optic yellow]

I have no idea how you could apply tennis ideas to golf apart from the use of the torso. Even then the details are probably different.

For the driver in particular the whole concept of letting the hands drop into the slot at the top of the downswing.

 

[zill]

For the driver in particular the whole concept of letting the hands drop into the slot at the top of the downswing.

Fair enough.

Is this idea 'both arms one after the other separately' wrong in golf? Do the arms work simultaneously together?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Fair enough.

Is this idea 'both arms one after the other separately' wrong in golf? Do the arms work simultaneously together?

There is some separation of use. If you look at someone at the top of the backswing, the left arm/shoulder is loaded from having arm straight during backswing. The right arm, at the same point in time, is in no position to provide power. The left arm does almost everything starting toward the ball. If the left continues to provide most of the power, you’ll slice. Before contact, a transition happens and the right arm is in a better position to power the finish of the swing.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Here is the closest thing tennis-wise that could translate to golf. Stan’s arm straightens even more during the drop.

https://imgur.com/a/Cry3hPS

 

[ChaelAZ]

Why would anyone listen to him. He doesn't know tennis and is not a good coach. He is a good self promoter.

The Phil Jackson of the tennis world.

 

[optic yellow]

Fair enough.

Is this idea 'both arms one after the other separately' wrong in golf? Do the arms work simultaneously together?

There is some separation of use. If you look at someone at the top of the backswing, the left arm/shoulder is loaded from having arm straight during backswing. The right arm, at the same point in time, is in no position to provide power. The left arm does almost everything starting toward the ball. If the left continues to provide most of the power, you’ll slice. Before contact, a transition happens and the right arm is in a better position to power the finish of the swing.

This is more or less how it works (the slice part is a little more complex) but it's key to note that you don't think about it that way, with the arms distinctly; it is one cohesive movement. It can be worthwhile to distinguish to diagnose and there are drills that involve one hand swinging to isolate but never ideally is it as he described he thought about with 2HBH.

Here is the closest thing tennis-wise that could translate to golf. Stan’s arm straightens even more during the drop.

https://imgur.com/a/Cry3hPS

The closest thing really is what I said it was: scooping a low ball with a near vertical racquet face. I had several golf lessons as a kid and developed a very good iron swing, and this is the resultant tennis stroke I developed to a high level as a result of intuition.

 

[onehandbh]

If you are trying to push a disabled car down the street, you get your feet behind you and lean into it or you’d push yourself over backward. If you are swatting a fly, not necessary

I recommend using a straight-arm technique when pushing a car up an incline.

 

[travlerajm]

As someone who uses a western grip on the FH i always used a bent arm. A few days ago i decided to hit some FHs with a SW grip but the bent arm felt so weird and wonky with this grip, hard to control, hard to let go, just felt wrong. Then i remembered Alcaraz FH and decided to try SA: damn, the thing just became alive, so loose and fast, i could pull the trigger anytime with it.

Perhaps it is personal and it clicked only with me, but i finally understood how to make the SW grip work. That is why i decided to create this thread considering i already knew Mouratoglou's take on the FH.

I wish I could just dial up the Alcaraz forehand on demand too.

 

[travlerajm]

I recommend using a straight-arm technique when pushing a car up an incline.

I recommend getting out of the way of the car, especially if the incline is steep.

 

[optic yellow]

I wish I could just dial up the Alcaraz forehand on demand too.

That is the compromise one must make to master the dark arts of the junkball.

 

[ubercat]

You are punching another human with your fist. You don’t knock them 60ft away like a tennis ball, you lean in to have a good base to not knock yourself backwards. Hitting a 2oz ball does not take moving your weight 1mph forward into hitting the ball. If you are trying to push a disabled car down the street, you get your feet behind you and lean into it or you’d push yourself over backward. If you are swatting a fly, not necessary.

Hmm you seem to have got lost in the weeds. Let me help you out of there.

The variable you missed is ball speed. If you want the 2 oz ball to go fast you need to apply power. One of the sources of power is weight transfer.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Hmm you seem to have got lost in the weeds. Let me help you out of there.

The variable you missed is ball speed. If you want the 2 oz ball to go fast you need to apply power. One of the sources of power is weight transfer.

You are the one that is lost. I will post a video of someone hitting forehands in a bit and you will see none of their weight moving forward just before, during or after contact. There is some wisdom in PM’s keeping still advice.
On backhands, you have to be on the front foot to swing correctly, but it isn’t about throwing your weight into it. In particular, watch his forehands. I don’t see the leading edge of his body moving forward at all.

 

[Curious]

You are the one that is lost. I will post a video of someone hitting forehands in a bit and you will see none of their weight moving forward just before, during or after contact. There is some wisdom in PM’s keeping still advice.
On backhands, you have to be on the front foot to swing correctly, but it isn’t about throwing your weight into it. In particular, watch his forehands. I don’t see the leading edge of his body moving forward at all.

Some consider torso rotation as weight transfer. Like rotating/transferring right side of the body forward.
I don’t know. A weird claim.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Some consider torso rotation as weight transfer. Like rotating/transferring right side of the body forward.
I don’t know. A weird claim.

And if the entire torso is not moving forward, that would mean the left side is moving back. A net zero as far as weight goes. The right shoulder does have to move forward to bring the racquet.

 

[Curious]

And if the entire torso is not moving forward, that would mean the left side is moving back. A net zero as far as weight goes. The right shoulder does have to move forward to bring the racquet.

Yeah, doesn’t seem like any linear weight transfer forward. Although rotation gives some impression of “rotational weight transfer” it probably happens because it has to, not to use the weight.

 

[zill]

Yeah, doesn’t seem like any linear weight transfer forward. Although rotation gives some impression of “rotational weight transfer” it probably happens because it has to, not to use the weight.

The Two turns ultimately allows you to use rotation of the torso to transfer your weight linearly forward.

Without the precise two turns this task seems impossible as you people are debating about.

 

[Curious]

Even Federer and Djokovic struggle and screw up sometimes when they’re not balanced while hitting. So maybe weight transfer back or forward is less ideal than no weight transfer ( no linear movement of body) during the swing. Rotation only does a perfect job.

 

[ballmachineguy]

You rotate fastest on an axis. Any directional movement would only serve to slow the swing. Not ideal.

 

[optic yellow]

And if the entire torso is not moving forward, that would mean the left side is moving back. A net zero as far as weight goes. The right shoulder does have to move forward to bring the racquet.

Hips bear weight so theoretically can shift weight forward in rotation.

 

[Curious]

Hips bear weight so theoretically can shift weight forward in rotation.

Does the weight of the swinging arm contribute to ball speed?

 

[optic yellow]

Does the weight of the swinging arm contribute to ball speed?

**** if I know.

 

[zill]

Does the weight of the swinging arm contribute to ball speed?

Force = m * a

 

[Curious]

Guess which of these guys can swing their hand in the air faster.

https://imgur.com/a/fKoSI1A

https://imgur.com/a/QTqZnpw

 

[zill]

Guess which of these guys can swing their hand in the air faster.

https://imgur.com/a/fKoSI1A

https://imgur.com/a/QTqZnpw

But which would you rather take on in a street fight??

 

[Curious]

But which would you rather take on in a street fight??

The big guy. I’m more likely to run away faster!

 

[zill]

The big guy. I’m more likely to run away faster!

Smart man

 

[Dragy]

Does the weight of the swinging arm contribute to ball speed?

At the instance of impact, that moment where all those simple physics formulas can be applied - no, it’s only part of the racquet mass which contributes.

But if you look from more philosophical or rhetorical standpoint, where you need to win in forum discussion or support your expert status, you can safely claim that at some point in the swing arm mass is in movement, and that racquet head accelerates against the arm, circularly, and higher the momentum arm carries - more can be developed for the racquet head.

So you can rely on body parts mass to accelerate the racquet developing the swing. But by the moment of impact it’s played it’s role and cannot contribute directly to ball speed.

 

[Curious]

At the instance of impact, that moment where all those simple physics formulas can be applied - no, it’s only part of the racquet mass which contributes.

But if you look from more philosophical or rhetorical standpoint, where you need to win in forum discussion or support your expert status, you can safely claim that at some point in the swing arm mass is in movement, and that racquet head accelerates against the arm, circularly, and higher the momentum arm carries - more can be developed for the racquet head.

So you can rely on body parts mass to accelerate the racquet developing the swing. But by the moment of impact it’s played it’s role and cannot contribute directly to ball speed.

So you’re saying the heavier arm can result in faster racket head?

 

[ubercat]

Ah the usual TTW empty rabbithole. Yes what I said is true weight transfer is a power source. So is rotation. So is elastic energy aka lag.

 

[Dragy]

So you’re saying the heavier arm can result in faster racket head?

If you replace same person’s arm with heavier arm, it may have no or detrimental effect on RHS. But if you get a bigger person swing his heavier arm with same speed as lighter person, the racquet might come around a tad faster… But it’s unreal scenario and insignificant theoretical gain. More practical approach is: if a 150lbs and 180lbs players swing the racquet with same speed and trajectory and make same clean contact, the ball won’t know the 30lbs difference. If a slim 15 YO 6.0’ kid tries to swing Wawrinka’s stick, he likely gets neither same RHS nor power on the ball… but he can use Ezone 100 and hand with Stan in rallies

 

[Dragy]

Ah the usual TTW empty rabbithole. Yes what I said is true weight transfer is a power source. So is rotation. So is elastic energy aka lag.

Biomechanically “weight transfer” works because “moving the body” works. I guess “weight transfer” has been developed as a coaching cue because it can be perceived and passed over by word more easily than trying to describe complex whole body movement. And even though it’s not the uniform instruction, it usually successfully sets them on the track/reminds and gives the feel of doing proper things to get better ball. So it’s worth doing, not worth discussing much.

 

[ppma]

Go get a lesson of high school mechanics, please. This is embarrassing.

 

[optic yellow]

Go get a lesson of high school mechanics, please. This is embarrassing.

can u not give it?

 

[ppma]

can u not give it?

Implying what?

 

[ubercat]

I can't believe anyone thinks otherwise. Tennis is a dynamic sport of course you will move your centre. Open stance fh or reverse pivot will be all rotation. A hop through fh or linear Agassi big C fh will have more weight transfer. If I have a floater to tee off on of course I will load the back leg more as I have time. It all works in different situations

 

[optic yellow]

Implying what?

You know what it's implying.

 

[travlerajm]

You don’t need to transfer your weight forward to hit a tennis ball. But if you do, the ball will go faster.