To me, the difference was scaredy-cat Nadal '21 (which his serve was the perfect reflection of). The Nadal of old would stomp all over Novak for a breadstick or bagel in the first set (not let him claw his way back and... grow in confidence that he actually can win).
Moya on Rafa's "mental and physical fatigue," pulling out of Wimbledon, and the SF against Djokovic
- Thread starter jm1980
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D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
I agree, I think Nadal needs someone else to help Moya, someone like a motivational-type speaker, to remind Nadal that Djokovic has no answer for his forehand-down-the-line.
There is no point being humble when you are in a Roland Garros SF.
Nadal needs to be fired-up, and Moya can't do it.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Nadal needs to hire Becker or Sampras. His loyalty to the armada is going to cost him slams (and already has imo)
Born_to_slice
Legend
Nadal had 13 km/h faster average 2nd serve speed than Djokovic.
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D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
And 2021 was "self-destructing Nadal", because there is no other way to describe 8 double-faults in the biggest match at his favorite slam event, and the worst volley he's ever hit (and it was at 3-4 in the tiebreaker).Nadal had 13 km/h faster average 2nd serve speed than Djokovic.
He was also exceptionally aggressive off the ground (which normally produced more UE), same as he was in the 2013, when Djokovic was playing at great level. Last year Nadal faced self-destructing Djokovic and his usual solid level was enough.Infosys Match Centre - Roland-Garros - The official site
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Totally agree. I think all of us have our own subjective biases, as long as the debate is broadly respectful, its OK. Things here always get heated when someone claims to "objectively" state only all others are wrong.Exactly. That is why I don't believe in " Objective poster" theory . Those who call themselves objective are biased AF .
I have seen few fans here refuse to believe Novak was injured even if his toe bleeds or his elbow bleeds in full public view , even if he falls down on court very badly . They keep laughing at it and make threads discussing for days that he was not injured .
But the same fans readily accept injury excuse of their favourite player after the player lost an important match . And the player only claims injury after the match is over . There were no visible signs of injury before or during the match. But these shameless fans totally want everyone to believe their favourite players/ God's excuses . Lol hypocrites
Ofcourse there are respectable fans in all fanbases .so we need to be respectful to the decent , respectful ones .
Born_to_slice
Legend
13 km/h faster 2nd serve is the culprit. Obviously, he was countering Novak's great return game.
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Deleted member 770948
Guest
And Nadal hit 7 double-faults vs. Rublev at Monte Carlo 2021........and 5 double-faults vs. Tsitsipas at Barcelona 2021.
Good idea to skip Wimbledon and find out why his serve is so unreliable.......whereas Nadal didn't lose a point on serve in the 3rd Set of AO QF 2021, until 5-6 40-0....
And I think Nadal was abbreviating his service motion at that AO because of the back injury........so maybe go back to that abbreviated motion.
Born_to_slice
Legend
There was little wrong with his serve before Djokovic match. 6 aces, 3 df against Schwartzman, 68% won on 2nd serve (against great returner like Diego). He had 7 df against Sinner and a lower 2nd serve % won but killed it with 1st serve (81% won) and obliterated the fella. It was Djokovic level that bamboozled him more than anything else. If Novak stayed at the level he was until 5-0 in the 1st set, it would've been RG20 repeat and VB would be celebrating Nadal's 21st slam.
The writing was on the wall. he let Norrie recover two breaks on a trot before he pulled away.
This volley was a consequence of a poor-quality drop-shot. All Rafa did after that was try his hardest to recover from this blunder, getting ever more tense with each ball that was coming back
beard
Legend
Old Nadal is past... You can't compare best versions of players with present opponents... This wasn't best Nadal ever and it shouldn't be, same as this wasn't best version of Novak... They play at present form, and this time Novak won, same as few months ago Nadal won...
I really hate reading this kind of stuff... "Prime Fed/Raf/Djok would win"... Who cares what would/could happen...
This is where the paradox of Rafa lies. He overcompensated with ultra-aggressive play in the 3rd set (which wasn't proving that much effective because of the incurred unforced errors) but when it came to the breakpoint at 5*:6, he played the safest way imaginable. I rewatched this point 10s of times. All his shots were landing within the service box, the standing invitation for a drop shot from Novak (which he ultimately got)
OK but even Nadal '20 was much better in that regard (as proven by the score), and it was only 8 months ago...
beard
Legend
No one has answer for good stroke down the line, including Nadal against Novaks strokes... Problem is that type of strokes are hard to execute in high percentages... Lol at experts saying "hit that down the line you mug"...
beard
Legend
Or Nadal wasn't that better, but Novak 2020 was too bad? We can't know, and it doesn't even matter...
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Deleted member 770948
Guest
7 double-faults vs. Sinner, exactly.
Nadal lost to Federer in the 2021 RG Semi-Final........not Djokovic.
Being tied with Federer on 20 slams is why Nadal missed that easy volley at 3-4 in the tiebreaker, and why he was too gun-shy to hit down-the-line........instead grinding crosscourt.
I never thought Nadal would be psyched-out by the slam record, but he was, because he's never looked this nervous or this error-prone at Roland Garros.......ever.
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beard
Legend
Problem is that Nadal have not history of working on being better, improving... Off course, he did some relatively minor improvements, but it's laughable compared to Novak and even Federer...
Even considering some things that he tried but failed (foe example ao 19 big serve) he wasn't patient to give a real chance, but he rejected changes quickly...
You can't expect him to change massively his game which will be obviously needed... I think Nadal is slave of habits (just look at his ticks including serve preparation or bottles) including his game... His game will work till it works and in one moment machine will just stop...
Silverbullet96
Hall of Fame
So probably something which every top player has.
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Deleted member 770948
Guest
Apart from avoiding double-faults, no improvements are necessary........because we'd be having very different conversation if Nadal didn't hit those 8 double-faults........or didn't hit the worst volley of his career.
In fact there wouldn't even be a tiebreaker if Nadal converted the very winnable Set Point at 6-5........but he seemed to misread Djokovic's drop-shot, and was late.
beard
Legend
I really hope Nadal think the same, because in that case he is out of slam race... Change and improvement is absolutely necessary, if he wants to be in charge in matches against big rivals...
Off course, he can keep improving nothing and hope for opponents to play badly, but that's not what champions do... On hard courts he is quite time very vulnerable to 10 or so players, on clay situation is better but is quickly changing in opponents advance...
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Good interview from Moya.
But there's not much Nadal can do, IMO. He isn't beating Djokovic off clay anymore, IMO unless Novak has a truly terrible day.
But there's not much Nadal can do, IMO. He isn't beating Djokovic off clay anymore, IMO unless Novak has a truly terrible day.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Given the collapse of Nadal in the fourth set, losing 6 in a row, even had Nadal won the third set I think Novak was the favorite had it gone to 5. The evidence is mounting that Nadal can’t deal with 5 setters the way he used to anymore
TearTheRoofOff
G.O.A.T.
Same goes for the whole field pretty much. Djoker genuinely has to play like a mug to get slain. So much for having your grip torn away by superlative performances from the next generation of great players.
Spencer Gore
Legend
How does it make you a "class act" by not mentioning suffering simple fatigue, that every player has? That makes no sense.
Tennisfan339
Professional
Thanks. Interesting interview.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
his wrist was numb or probably producing some pain during RG.
I noticed it in the Diego 1/4 final and it got worse in the semi.
Nadal needs to update his racquet to help alleviate such occurrences.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Tpas was doing fine and outplaying Djokovic until whatever happened in set 3.
Tpas is not mentally strong yet, and Djokovic took full advantage, but his physical level of play has a higher peak than Djokovic right now.
airchallenge2
Hall of Fame
In set 3 the actual Djokovic showed up.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
Yeah, I mean like Djokovic had only won 18 slam finals before that match.
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
Who, mister "no points won on return until late in the first set"?
Outplaying is a bit of a strong word.
He did really well in winning those sets, and in keeping the scoreline generally close, but he was outclassed more often than not.
Don't make me laugh. Nadal should have been happy, that he was 1-1 set, and manage to get to the tiebreak.
Djokovic missed way too many opportunities to close the 3rd.
And don't talk about the missing volley, cause Djokovic missed like 10-15+ important points on the net with his b.c., instead of just smashing the ball.
Even the first set Djokovc could have done way better. He had many BPs opportunities in the very first game, and after that he was having and missing many game balls, as well as having so much games where he was broken, when he led with 30-0 or so.
Nadal made a few DFs, and misses 1-2 easy point, but that was. Djokovic f***** way way more, and he also make some DFs.
But Nadal also safes a lot of BPs with his serve, but you forget to mention this.
Nadal is done, get over it.
had nadal won FO this year, would he have skip wimbledon
TENNIS QUIZ
had fed won the first set 6-0 against Robin Soderling in FO 2009 final instead of 6-1
what record he would have made
click on spoiler to know the answer
TENNIS QUIZ
had fed won the first set 6-0 against Robin Soderling in FO 2009 final instead of 6-1
what record he would have made
click on spoiler to know the answer
he would have become the first male player to win a bagel set in all 4 grand slam ie AO, FO, Wimb and US Open finals
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weakera
Talk Tennis Guru
Hitman
Bionic Poster
13 RG won, each followed by participation at W.
4 RG did not walk out with the title, followed by 3 out of 4 W then missed.
In regards to quiz - Federer would have then lost the last set of his last RG final in a bagel to then win the first set of his next RG with a bagel.
34 year old Djokovic cannot have high pace endurance of 24 year old Djokovic. What he can have and has right now is the highest possible level of lower pace endurance.
Which means it makes no sense for him to fight heart out each point each game full throttle so 'may the better player on the day prevail'. He can endure 2 sets doing it, if at all. He cannot win that way anymore.
So he deliberately played long match at lower pace while exploiting kid's inexperience by making havoc in his mind. Tsitsipas got the best lesson to learn what his mind needs to do with itself to top others comfortably once Big3 retire. RoS and backhand variety (eg slice, varying depth) anyone can tell and teach him. He has the fire needed to be at the top but need to get over that Federer like narcissism he has. Djokovic simply put that fact in front of Tpas mind to show him what is the issue his mind needs to solve.
Djokovic does not play to entertain / act out some Marvel character for 10 year olds. He never did. He plays to win Slam record now. He is doing it the most intelligent, the most effective way for him to succeed.
Apart for his mind failing itself, it seems there is nothing anyone can do to prevent the final outcome, whatever the upsets may and will occur on that road. Even Nadal resurrecting again and winning USO21 against 'tired' Djokovic cannot prevent it.
Djokovic screaming after every win is proof he will not let the monster fall asleep again before it all is finally over.
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DRII
G.O.A.T.
I can agree with a lot of what you wrote.
Djokovic definitely sacrificed the most of the coGOATs, as far as diet discipline etc. He is the most tactical and deliberate of the 3 and the 'smartest' too (on the court).
However, his body is not going to last forever either. He's definitely 'younger and fresher' than the other 2, but by how much?
DRII
G.O.A.T.
he was there for set 1 as well, set 2 was his only walk about set.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
nope...
Hitman
Bionic Poster
He's got maybe 2 more seasons at the top. Not saying he will win everything in sight, but he will contend for them.
D
Deleted member 770948
Guest
Nadal has won 2 of the last 3 US Opens prior to covid........and 4 of the last 5 French Opens........and only lost because of 8 double-faults.
Djokovic is doomed, if he has to rely on Nadal serving 8 double-faults....
Nadal is waltzing past Federer's slam record, whether you recommend improvements or not....
Nadal will be a lot fresher than everyone else in August, on the way to his 6th Canada title and 5th US Open title........and he may even win Cincy again.
Also a great chance at winning the ATP World Tour Finals, considering he beat Tsitsipas and Rublev at London last year, and almost beat Medvedev in straight sets....
Lucky Nadal skipped Wimbledon, while all those suckers waste their time and energy on it....
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beard
Legend
Novak - Nadal at FO 2:1, sice 2015, bud...
Nadal15thslam
Hall of Fame
Djokovic fans learned the word "cope" and don't know how to act. It's not a direct attack at you, you're a good poster. I'm talking about others.
Coach spitting straight fax. RAFA definitely overplayed this CC season. At this stage in his career he really should only be playing 1-2 warmup events before RG. He just played Rome last year for obvious reasons, and he had way more in the tank for the one that mattered. At the very least he needs to skip Madrid as it plays nothing like RG. As far as Wimby goes, he was skipping that even if he won. The short turn around after that many events back to back is a recipe for disaster.
Rafa playing only 1-2 European clay events prior to RG is simply not in his DNA. I understand his advanced age, but that is the time of year that he wants to "overplay." In more recent years, Nadal has seemingly needed Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid and Rome to fully build his confidence going into RG. He is a player who actually feeds off of getting the reps, perhaps more so than Djokovic or Federer ever have. This year, Nadal had two full weeks off heading into RG. He mostly cruised to the semis before losing an epic to Djokovic, who had actually played an added warmup event in Belgrade the week prior to RG. Losing to a clearly inferior player during the first week would be cause to second guess Rafa's scheduling. That's not what happened. As you said, Nadal had likely predetermined that he was not going to play Wimbledon or the Olympics. Larger windows of rest, training and no tournament play is how he is picking his spots at this point. Eliminating a spring clay court event isn't likely in the cards.
The Blond Blur
G.O.A.T.
Disagree. He only won Rome in 2019 and won RG. He only played Rome because rona wrecked the CC season and won RG. He doesn't need that many tune up events to get ready for a schlem. 1-2 is more than enough at 35 and next year will be 36 years of age.
TheFifthSet
Legend
And Djokovic hit a handful of low-quality overheads and drop shots the first three sets.
Rafa is so exceptional that he could obviously win nearly any tournament at any time. So can Djokovic. So could Federer in his best years. But each individual possesses different attributes and different preferences. Nadal has always preferred to play a "full" spring clay schedule consisting of MC, Barcelona, Madrid (previously Hamburg) and Rome. Rafa likes to get those reps on clay. He likes the build-up of the CC season. Sure, we can speculate that he would benefit from eliminating a warmup event or two from his schedule at this stage of his career, but the evidence doesn't really support doing so. Clearly, he would rather cut back in other parts of the year so that he can work into the CC season and play his typical schedule.
It was widely spoken about (by Moya, by Rafa himself and repeated by various media members) that Rafa needed Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Madrid and Rome to obtain the necessary reps and confidence in 2019. Nadal lost in the semis of those first three tournaments before winning Rome two years ago. Then he swept through RG as usual. I'm not sure what can be gleaned from the abbreviated fall 2020 clay court season.
This year appeared quite similar to 2019, except that Nadal had played very little tournament tennis in months. In fact, following the fall 2020 RG, Nadal played in three official tournaments between October 2020 and April 2021 (three tournaments in six months). He looked rusty and off in Monte Carlo and Barcelona, but found a way to eek out the Barcelona title over Tsitsipas. Perhaps he didn't need to play Madrid, but he had a week off after Barcelona and it's in Spain. As in 2019, it wasn't until Rome that he really obtained the necessary confidence. He didn't lose to Djokovic in the RG semis because he overplayed. He lost to Djokovic because Djokovic is equally exceptional and happened to play a bit better on more key moments later in the match.
BlueB
Legend
This is the best one yet! VB's creativity at denying any credit to Djokovic is unprecedent.
GabeT
G.O.A.T.
Are we sure Djokovic won the title? His fans seem so happy
