Murray and Federer Rivalry

McEnroeisanartist

Hall of Fame
On the surface, many people see that Murray leads his rivalry with Federer and think, wow, how can this be? How can the greatest player of all time have a losing record to a perennial #4?

A closer look at their rivalry reveals something different:

Grand Slam matches (all finals) Federer 3-0
ATP Tour World Final matches Federer 3-1
Masters Tournaments Murray 6-1
Tournament Finals 5-3
 
Murray has a good record because he has generally believed in his game matching up well against Roger, which it does at least from the baseline. Roger is better at the intangibles. I think the h2h reflects the close nature of their rivalry, for lack of a better word.
 
Murray got most of his wins against Mono Year Fed.

Facts are a bugger aren't they? Actually 6 of Murray's 10 wins came in the period 2009-12. So unless Fed's been suffering from Mono for 5 long years since 2008, I think we can safely discard that theory or admit that's the only reason anyone else has ever managed to beat him in the last 5 years!
 
On the surface, many people see that Murray leads his rivalry with Federer and think, wow, how can this be? How can the greatest player of all time have a losing record to a perennial #4?

A closer look at their rivalry reveals something different:

Grand Slam matches (all finals) Federer 3-0
ATP Tour World Final matches Federer 3-1
Masters Tournaments Murray 6-1
Olympics Finals: Murray 1-0.
Tournament Finals 5-3

You missed one out.
 
On the surface, many people see that Murray leads his rivalry with Federer and think, wow, how can this be? How can the greatest player of all time have a losing record to a perennial #4?

A closer look at their rivalry reveals something different:

Grand Slam matches (all finals) Federer 3-0
ATP Tour World Final matches Federer 3-1
Masters Tournaments Murray 6-1
Tournament Finals 5-3

Different to what? All you've done is 'unpacked' their record - what point are you trying to make?
 
Different to what? All you've done is 'unpacked' their record - what point are you trying to make?

He missed the lines 'In the matches it matters, Fed has won. Murray has not won against Fed on Clay. Murray has to wait until Fed ages to get a victory of note'.
 
zero clay matches means that Murray is basically only taking on his majesty when Muzz is on his preferred surface.

If they played 5 matches on outdoor hard, 5 on indoor hard, 5 on grass, 5 on clay i think it would look like this:

Murray 4-1 outdoor hard
federer 3-2 Indoor hard
Federer 3-2 Grass
Federer 5-0 Clay

Federer 12 - Murray 8

and that was being DAMN generous to murray
 
zero clay matches means that Murray is basically only taking on his majesty when Muzz is on his preferred surface.

If they played 5 matches on outdoor hard, 5 on indoor hard, 5 on grass, 5 on clay i think it would look like this:

Murray 4-1 outdoor hard
federer 3-2 Indoor hard
Federer 3-2 Grass
Federer 5-0 Clay

Federer 12 - Murray 8

and that was being DAMN generous to murray

Peak to peak, Federer wouldn't lose to Murray more than once on Grass if they played 5.
 
zero clay matches means that Murray is basically only taking on his majesty when Muzz is on his preferred surface.

If they played 5 matches on outdoor hard, 5 on indoor hard, 5 on grass, 5 on clay i think it would look like this:

Murray 4-1 outdoor hard
federer 3-2 Indoor hard
Federer 3-2 Grass
Federer 5-0 Clay

Federer 12 - Murray 8

and that was being DAMN generous to murray

Lol...oh please, don't put yourself out being generous to Murray for goodness sakes. Just tell us what you REALLY think! This is a democratic forum and you should feel free to express your honest opinions openly although you should also be prepared to be challenged on them.

Neither Murray nor anyone else needs your generosity. If you think the Great Federer should beat wretched Murray every time they meet (unless of course he's suffering from Mono or having a bad day) just come out and say so! :)
 
Facts are a bugger aren't they? Actually 6 of Murray's 10 wins came in the period 2009-12. So unless Fed's been suffering from Mono for 5 long years since 2008, I think we can safely discard that theory or admit that's the only reason anyone else has ever managed to beat him in the last 5 years!

So you're saying most of Murray's wins came against mono/post-peak Fed? Ok, I can agree with you for once.

Murray doesn't seem to live up to his seeding in clay tournaments so he avoids the maestro on the dirt. I don't know what the deal with everyone thinking Fed would ****h all over Murray on clay. I actually think it would be close-ish on clay, sort of like 5-3 if they played 8 times.
 
This so called rivarly tells us how a 27-31 year old Federer matches up with a 21-25 year old Murray with the vast majority of matches being best-of-3-sets on a hard court.
 
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So you're saying most of Murray's wins came against mono/post-peak Fed? Ok, I can agree with you for once.

Murray doesn't seem to live up to his seeding in clay tournaments so he avoids the maestro on the dirt. I don't know what the deal with everyone thinking Fed would ****h all over Murray on clay. I actually think it would be close-ish on clay, sort of like 5-3 if they played 8 times.

There's a reason why Murray only made like 1 RG SF and Roger made the SF there for 7 of the last 8 years, with 6 of those 7 being finals.
 
Peak to peak, Federer wouldn't lose to Murray more than once on Grass if they played 5.


so you're talking about if you matched 25 y.o. murray against 25 y.o. Fed and let their careers ride out?


if that's the case it's going to be overwhelmingly Federer.


I'm talking about if you could replay the career arc they've had.


I do agree that any grass match they would have played prior to 2010 would've been all Federer.
 
Their rivalry has definitely changed over the years. When Murray jumped out to a 6-2 lead in their head-to-head, Federer seemed very unsure of how to play Murray. Murray played more passively then, but even so, Federer didn't seem to know how to hit through his defenses. Now Federer seems a lot more comfortable and the head-to-head is a lot more even, but he also has to play at a very high level to beat Murray. When he shows up flat and Murray's playing well, we get the Olympics gold medal match. It's an exciting rivalry that I love to watch. I never know who is going to win any given match.
 
Most of the matches have taken place after Federer's prime (end of 2007) and on Murray's preferred surface (hard courts). Federer himself is great on hard courts, but he doesn't have the same advantages he would had they played proportionately on clay.
 
Facts are a bugger aren't they? Actually 6 of Murray's 10 wins came in the period 2009-12. So unless Fed's been suffering from Mono for 5 long years since 2008, I think we can safely discard that theory or admit that's the only reason anyone else has ever managed to beat him in the last 5 years!

2006 Win....Federer was too tired.
2008 Wins...Mono Year....did not have time to have a physical training session.

2009-2010----Murray legit wins.

2011-Present----Federer too old......
 
What I do find funny is that some Fed fans tell us that head to heads mean nothing - and then spend a hell of a lot of time and effort 'explaining' them :)

Seriously guys - he has 17 slams and is probably the greatest player ever to take to court - you really don't need to spin anything to make him look better.
 
Their rivalry has definitely changed over the years. When Murray jumped out to a 6-2 lead in their head-to-head, Federer seemed very unsure of how to play Murray. Murray played more passively then, but even so, Federer didn't seem to know how to hit through his defenses. Now Federer seems a lot more comfortable and the head-to-head is a lot more even, but he also has to play at a very high level to beat Murray. When he shows up flat and Murray's playing well, we get the Olympics gold medal match. It's an exciting rivalry that I love to watch. I never know who is going to win any given match.

+1 This. Said exactly the same before their WTF semi meeting.
 
What I do find funny is that some Fed fans tell us that head to heads mean nothing - and then spend a hell of a lot of time and effort 'explaining' it.

Seriously guys - he has 17 slams and is probably the greatest player ever to take to court - you really don't need to spin anything to make him look better.

I agree. There's no need to spin Roger's H2h against Murray. Murray since the beginning has given Roger trouble and it's reflected in the record. There are no exceptional circumstances like a lopsided clay record.

That said, perhaps it's also right then to point out that not every Murray win over Roger proves some kind of Murray > Roger theorem. There is a long way for Murray to go to be even compared to his own peers, let alone Roger.
 
The only thing it takes for Fed fans to blow a fuse is to smell a victory coming. This board has become a bit wacko: "I have a stat: Fed is the only player to have won 23 matches in less than a hundred points" Wow really? Omg, he is God. He is the One (hyperventilating).
Fed fans: breathe (and don't forget to take your meds, it can help...)
 
I agree. There's no need to spin Roger's H2h against Murray. Murray since the beginning has given Roger trouble and it's reflected in the record. There are no exceptional circumstances like a lopsided clay record.

That said, perhaps it's also right then to point out that not every Murray win over Roger proves some kind of Murray > Roger theorem. There is a long way for Murray to go to be even compared to his own peers, let alone Roger.

The exceptional circumstance is that none of their 19 meetings has been on Clay. None. Which is exceptional because 1/3 of the tour is on Clay. That said, Murray has always had the edge in the 3-set Hardcourt matchup. I honestly don't know why, nor do I really care.
 
Murray would never beat Fed on clay. It speaks more to Murray's constant inability to go deep in clay events 2008-2010.
 
I agree. There's no need to spin Roger's H2h against Murray. Murray since the beginning has given Roger trouble and it's reflected in the record. There are no exceptional circumstances like a lopsided clay record.

That said, perhaps it's also right then to point out that not every Murray win over Roger proves some kind of Murray > Roger theorem. There is a long way for Murray to go to be even compared to his own peers, let alone Roger.

Agreed - perhaps you could point out someone who has recently postulated such a theorem?
 
Murray's game gives Federer trouble, there's no doubt about it. He gets a lot of balls back and flusters him the same way Nadal does. Djokovic tends to play Federer more agressive which Federer likes because if he's on his game he can hold his own more and it is a rhythm he likes more.

There are interesting things about the H2H that's not just a lot of excuse making.

Of course they have only played 2 matches on grass, both as late as this year, and have never played a single clay match which is surprising as Murray can make clay semis.

Murray gave Federer his only pre final loss in 2006 in the first match at Cincinatti.

Murray at one point led 6-2 (in 2009) but since then Federer has managed to have more success and keep the H2H fairly even, level at one point this year, never more than 3 behind. So this tells us that Federer has become better at dealing with Murray.

Federer at one time lost from a set up in best of 3, 4 times in a row vs Murray.

Murray is 9-6 in best of 3, and Federer is 3-1 in best of 5.

In best of 3 matches Murray has won 5 that went the distance, and 4 in straight sets. Federer has won 1 that went the distance and 5 in straight sets. Seems Murray's odds improve a lot when it goes to 3.

Interestingly enough, the last 3 set match that went to 3 sets was the WTF 2009. Since then there have been 6 best of 3 matches all won in straight sets (3 by each) and including all matches, in the last 9 matches Federer and Murray have played against each other, only one has not been straight sets (Wimbledon final) that's 9 matches, 4 straight set wins each and one 4 set win by Federer. So generally the trend has been whoever wins the first set wins in straights. And no real edge to either player, you never know who willwin but whoever does usually (in recent history) wins fairly easilyin score at least.
 
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Murray's game gives Federer trouble, there's no doubt about it. He gets a lot of balls back and flusters him the same way Nadal does. Djokovic tends to play Federer more agressive which Federer likes because if he's on his game he can hold his own more and it is a rhythm he likes more.

There are interesting things about the H2H that's not just a lot of excuse making.

Of course they have only played 2 matches on grass, both as late as this year, and have never played a single clay match which is surprising as Murray can make clay semis.

Murray gave Federer his only pre final loss in 2006 in the first match at Cincinatti.

Murray at one point led 6-2 (in 2009) but since then Federer has managed to have more success and keep the H2H fairly even, level at one point this year, never more than 3 behind. So this tells us that Federer has become better at dealing with Murray.

Federer at one time lost from a set up in best of 3, 4 times in a row vs Murray.

Murray is 9-6 in best of 3, and Federer is 3-1 in best of 5.

In best of 3 matches Murray has won 5 that went the distance, and 4 in straight sets. Federer has won 1 that went the distance and 5 in straight sets. Seems Murray's odds improve a lot when it goes to 3.

Interestingly enough, the last 3 set match that went to 3 sets was the WTF 2009. Since then there have been 6 best of 3 matches all won in straight sets (3 by each) and including all matches, in the last 9 matches Federer and Murray have played against each other, only one has not been straight sets (Wimbledon final) that's 9 matches, 4 straight set wins each and one 4 set win by Federer. So generally the trend has been whoever wins the first set wins in straights. And no real edge to either player, you never know who willwin but whoever does usually (in recent history) wins fairly easilyin score at least.

*doffs cap* excellent analysis.
 
Fed has owned Murray in slams. It's Murray's burden to change that one but currently that's a fact. Murray has been dominant in best of 3 . Fact as well. No need to resort to excuses in either case. It is still a great achievement for Murray to lead the head to head overall. It may be the only top player Murray will ever have that edge against. Leave the poor guy his claim to fame please.
 
What I do find funny is that some Fed fans tell us that head to heads mean nothing - and then spend a hell of a lot of time and effort 'explaining' them :)

Seriously guys - he has 17 slams and is probably the greatest player ever to take to court - you really don't need to spin anything to make him look better.

In the normal course there should not be a need for these threads. But there are ignorants who would say he is not the GOAT because he has a losing record against Nadal, Murray and Hrbaty. If Fed plays till 45, he is still expected to have a winning H2H.
 
In the normal course there should not be a need for these threads. But there are ignorants who would say he is not the GOAT because he has a losing record against Nadal, Murray and Hrbaty. If Fed plays till 45, he is still expected to have a winning H2H.

IMHO H2H matters in these ways:

#1 - a GOAT has to utterly dominate his own generation
#2 - a GOAT has to hold his own against the next generation

Fed has done #1 in spades and is a combined 35-40 against Nadal, Djokovic and Murray.

That to me qualifies Fed as a GOAT candidate.
 
2008 Wins...Mono Year....did not have time to have a physical training session.

So how come his Mono didn't stop him beating Murray at the 2008 USO final?
Murray's 2008 wins against Fed all came AFTER his USO defeat. So did Fed's Mono just mysteriously come and go at that time (came when he lost to Murray, and went when he beat him)? ;)

2011-Present----Federer too old......

So that negates Djokovic's and Nadal's and everybody else's wins against him from 2011 onwards? :)
 
The only thing it takes for Fed fans to blow a fuse is to smell a victory coming. This board has become a bit wacko: "I have a stat: Fed is the only player to have won 23 matches in less than a hundred points" Wow really? Omg, he is God. He is the One (hyperventilating).
Fed fans: breathe (and don't forget to take your meds, it can help...)

For someone, who blews a fuse every time, Nadal posts a picture of his dirty laundry on FB, you sure are the one to speak.
 
Murray beat the Federer of 2006, while Federer was in his prime and before Murray hit his. Says something about the "peak" theory, doesn't it?
 
In the normal course there should not be a need for these threads. But there are ignorants who would say he is not the GOAT because he has a losing record against Nadal, Murray and Hrbaty. If Fed plays till 45, he is still expected to have a winning H2H.

I would leave Hrbaty out of it, but otherwise this is spot on IMHO. Well said!
 
Even if Federer is around until 2020, he will have probably still have a winning record against several "top" players.
 
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