Murray is an ATG

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Slam finals played against GOATs (open era: Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic):


Murray 10
Becker/Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam semifinals played against GOATs:

Murray 10
Becker / Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam quarterfinals played against GOATs:

Murray 4
Becker 1
Edberg / Wilander 0

Total slam matches against GOATs:

Murray 25
Becker 3
Edberg 2
Wilander 1


Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander, he had 3 GOATs on his way, to Becker/Edberg/Wilander's none.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Lew said:
Slam finals played against GOATs (open era: Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic):


Murray 10
Becker/Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam semifinals played against GOATs:

Murray 10
Becker / Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam quarterfinals played against GOATs:

Murray 4
Becker 1
Edberg / Wilander 0


Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander, he had 3 GOATs on his way, to Becker/Edberg/Wilander's none.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. In any other time he would be 5-15 slams.
 
Im(moral) Winner

Im(moral) Winner

G.O.A.T.
giphy.webp
 
K

KINGROGER

G.O.A.T.
He’s ATG in every stat except slam finals converted.

For peak level he’s a slightly better version of Hewitt. IE weak competition for a peak ATG.
 
heninfan99

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
It seems more than a little specious to be celebrating losing slam finals in reference to the first stat.
 
BeatlesFan

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Lew said:
Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander
Click to expand...

Sadly for you, the rest of the world does care about this. There's two people in the world who regard Andy Murray as an ATG: you (in heavy troll guise) and a regular and well-respected poster here.

A wee bit of info for you as well: Becker/Edberg/Wilander played endless slam finals against men who WERE considered near-GOAT's during their era: Lendl, Mac and (later on), Sampras. No one knew whether they would end up as GOAT's either, since the slam tally was obviously fluid. In 1987, some thought Becker would easily get to 12 slams.
 
D

Deleted member 757377

Guest
BeatlesFan said:
Sadly for you, the rest of the world does care about this. There's two people in the world who regard Andy Murray as an ATG: you (in heavy troll guise) and a regular and well-respected poster here.
Click to expand...
So the Earth used to be flat?
 
A

ABCD

Hall of Fame
BeatlesFan said:
There's two people in the world who regard Andy Murray as an ATG. /QUOTE]



Fancy a bet that there are more than 2? You did not have guts to have a bet that I am over 55 after you claimed that I am below 18. Do you have balls now to bet? I am claiming that I will find more than 2 people that will agree that Murray is a an ATG. Are you hot air or you are a decent human being who put money where your mouth is.
Click to expand...
 
A

ABCD

Hall of Fame
BeatlesFan said:
There's two people in the world who regard Andy Murray as an ATG.....
Click to expand...

Fancy a bet that there are more than 2? You did not have guts to have a bet that I am over 55 after you claimed that I am below 18. Do you have balls now to bet? I am claiming that I will find more than 2 people that will agree that Murray is a an ATG. Are you hot air or you are a decent human being who put money where the mouth is
 
Phoenix1983

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Becker beat Lendl 3 times, in the finals of 3 different slams - let’s see Murray do something equivalent.

Edberg beat Wilander, Becker twice (in Wimbledon finals) and Sampras (in the US Open final, after overcoming a hellish draw full of 5-setters). Again, I’m waiting for Murray to match this.

Wilander beat Lendl in the finals of 3 different slams, on 3 different surfaces. You get my drift...
 
Sport

Sport

G.O.A.T.
ABCD said:
Agree 100%. In any other time he would be 5-15 slams.
Click to expand...
That's equally ridiculous as saying: "in any other time Soderling would have won 3 RG, thus he is a greater clay player than Agassi". Or: "Nadal would have won 6 Wimbledon titles in the 1970s, thus he is a greater grass player than Borg".

Let us stop with unfalsifiable claims in tennis disccusions. Unfalsifiable = can't be proved false. Unfalsifiable claims should not be tolerated in any serious tennis discussion.

We should discuss facts and data, not hypothetical/unfalsifiable scenarios. Fact is, Murray has 3 Grand Slams. Whether he would have won more Grand Slams in any other era is untestable, thus irrelevant.
 
Night Slasher

Night Slasher

Semi-Pro
Wilander's AO title in 1983 was more impressive than any of Murray's runs, he beat prime Mac and Lendl on his weakest surface (grass) with the loss of one set. He also beat Roscoe Tanner, another dangerous and good grass player. Lendl took out Connors and Mcenroe on his way to his first USO title, Edberg beat both Lendl and Becker, Becker beat Lendl and Edberg...
Andy could never beat more than one ATG in the same tournament and it's not surprising, he lacks of a big game that all ATGs have had. That's the only reason he couldn't manage to win more major titles because you usually have to face several great players.
 
True Fanerer

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Sport said:
That's equally ridiculous as saying: "in any other time Soderling would have won 3 RG, thus he is a greater clay player than Agassi". Or: "Nadal would have won 6 Wimbledon titles in Borg's era, thus he is a greater grass player than Borg".

Let us stop with unfalsifiable claims in tennis disccusions. Unfalsifiable = can't be proved false. Unfalsifiable claims should not be tolerated in any serious tennis discussion.

We should discuss facts and data, not hypothetical/unfalsifiable scenarios. Fact is, Murray has 3 Grand Slams. Whether he would have won more Grand Slams in any other era is untestable, thus irrelevant.
Click to expand...
A very nice way of saying "stupid a** post."
 
Poisoned Slice

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
BeatlesFan said:
Sadly for you, the rest of the world does care about this. There's two people in the world who regard Andy Murray as an ATG: you (in heavy troll guise) and a regular and well-respected poster here.

A wee bit of info for you as well: Becker/Edberg/Wilander played endless slam finals against men who WERE considered near-GOAT's during their era: Lendl, Mac and (later on), Sampras. No one knew whether they would end up as GOAT's either, since the slam tally was obviously fluid. In 1987, some thought Becker would easily get to 12 slams.
Click to expand...

Every commentator or person in tennis that I've heard call Andy Murray ATG = a lot. Your argument is invalid. Yeah, I can consider that every single person is paid off by the Muzziah regime. That guy does not deserve his place at the ATG dinner table. Should be sitting outside in the middle of nowhere with.

 
ghostofMecir

ghostofMecir

Legend
Lew said:
Slam finals played against GOATs (open era: Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic):


Murray 10
Becker/Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam semifinals played against GOATs:

Murray 10
Becker / Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam quarterfinals played against GOATs:

Murray 4
Becker 1
Edberg / Wilander 0

Total slam matches against GOATs:

Murray 25
Becker 3
Edberg 2
Wilander 1


Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander, he had 3 GOATs on his way, to Becker/Edberg/Wilander's none.
Click to expand...

So...Federer beat an all-time great who is 6 years younger than he is 14 times and 5 times in slams (5-1 record, lost once in 5 sets), winning the last 5 in a row? Has this ever happened with another ATG who is 6 years older than his ATG opponent?

Federer = GOAT.
 
Indigo

Indigo

Professional
Life's really short. Remember watching Murray play as a 19 year old. He was promising player at that time... except that Novak would massacre him with drop shots. Time flies fast. I feel sorry that Murray didn't get to at least 6 slams. Perhaps he still has chances... if he manages to come back somehow which won't be easy. Wish to see him against new generation, i.e. Zverev and Co. Missed him playing along the Fed, Rafa and Nole this year. Miss the Big 4 although it's Big 3 actually.
 
A

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Indigo said:
Life's really short. Remember watching Murray play as a 19 year old. He was promising player at that time... except that Novak would massacre him with drop shots. Time flies fast. I feel sorry that Murray didn't get to at least 6 slams. Perhaps he still has chances... if he manages to come back somehow which won't be easy. Wish to see him against new generation, i.e. Zverev and Co. Missed him playing along the Fed, Rafa and Nole this year. Miss the Big 4 although it's Big 3 actually.
Click to expand...

Don't worry. Murray will be back.
 
Vish13

Vish13

Semi-Pro
Lew said:
Slam finals played against GOATs (open era: Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic):


Murray 10
Becker/Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam semifinals played against GOATs:

Murray 10
Becker / Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam quarterfinals played against GOATs:

Murray 4
Becker 1
Edberg / Wilander 0

Total slam matches against GOATs:

Murray 25
Becker 3
Edberg 2
Wilander 1


Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander, he had 3 GOATs on his way, to Becker/Edberg/Wilander's none.
Click to expand...


From your GOATs list, apart from Sampras which other GOAT are you expecting Edberg and Becker to play?
 
duaneeo

duaneeo

Legend
There is no definition of 'ATG', so it's very subjective. I think with 11 slam finals (3 wins), final appearances at all 4 slams, a WTF title, and 14 Masters (over 7 different tournaments), Murray is definitely an all-time great.
 
Phoenix1983

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
duaneeo said:
There is no definition of 'ATG', so it's very subjective. I think with 11 slam finals (3 wins), final appearances at all 4 slams, a WTF title, and 14 Masters (over 7 different tournaments), Murray is definitely an all-time great.
Click to expand...

It’s generally considered to be those with 6 or more slams.
 
underground

underground

G.O.A.T.
He is an ATG no doubt, in that after decades he will be one of the names that people will remember, just like all the multiple but single digit slam winners in the 80s and 90s. Just won't be in the conversation of GOAT-hood.
 
Phoenix1983

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
duaneeo said:
Says you. But again, it's subjective.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it is - but there has to be a limit.

No one would claim Roddick was an ATG, for instance. Nor Wawrinka.

Murray is in the "borderline" category, where some would claim he is, and some not - much like Vilas.

The true ATGs are those agreed upon by everyone, which would be the likes of Becker and Edberg upwards.
 
Phoenix1983

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
UnderratedSlam said:
But we already use GOAT in plural (which is absurd of course), as in GOATs, so why the need for ATG?

Is this like a title for sub-GOATs? For players not as great as Borg, Sampras, Agassi, The Big 3?
Click to expand...

GOAT = contenders for greatest of all time
ATG = all time greats. This can include several tiers below the GOAT.

So for me, for instance, GOAT is Federer, but Laver is also a GOAT contender.

There are however several more ATGs, in tiers such as Tier 1 (Nadal, Sampras, Novak Djokovic, Borg), Tier 2 (Lendl, Connors, Agassi, McEnroe) and Tier 3 (Becker, Edberg, Wilander).
 
Zara

Zara

G.O.A.T.
Lew said:
Slam finals played against GOATs (open era: Laver, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic):


Murray 10
Becker/Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam semifinals played against GOATs:

Murray 10
Becker / Edberg 1
Wilander 0

Slam quarterfinals played against GOATs:

Murray 4
Becker 1
Edberg / Wilander 0

Total slam matches against GOATs:

Murray 25
Becker 3
Edberg 2
Wilander 1


Murray is an ATG, I don't care if he lacks 3 slams to match Becker/Edberg/Wilander, he had 3 GOATs on his way, to Becker/Edberg/Wilander's none.
Click to expand...

Two more Slams and he will be a certified ATG.

Wimbledon 2019 here I come!!!
 
Plamen1234

Plamen1234

Hall of Fame
Murray doesnt have enough Slams to be an ATG.How many Slams finals he have played or how many Slams he would have won in other era doesnt matter.What matters in the ATG discussion is how many Slams you have won
 
X

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
Murray's on the borderline of being an ATG imo.
He hasn't played well enough in enough Slam finals to convert more chances. Of course, he's been up against great players, but so were others.
Wilander had to compete against McEnroe, Lendl, Becker and Edberg, Edberg against Lendl, Becker and Wilander, Lendl against McEnroe, Connors, Becker and Edberg (4 greats). Maybe these players are not in the running for GOAT, but they were still great players.

If Andy comes back to wins another Slam, I might consider him a great. He's pretty close.
 
Mainad

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Phoenix1983 said:
Becker beat Lendl 3 times, in the finals of 3 different slams - let’s see Murray do something equivalent.
Click to expand...

Murray beat Lendl in a charity knockabout at Queen's and even aimed a successful body serve at him. Bet Becker would never have dared to do that. :cool:

Phoenix1983 said:
Edberg beat Wilander, Becker twice (in Wimbledon finals) and Sampras (in the US Open final, after overcoming a hellish draw full of 5-setters). Again, I’m waiting for Murray to match this.
Click to expand...

Murray is a past master at overcoming hellish 5 setters to win his Slams eg. Cilic at 2012 USO, Verdasco and Janowicz at 2013 W and Tsonga at 2016 W.
 
duaneeo

duaneeo

Legend
Phoenix1983 said:
Yeah, it is - but there has to be a limit.
Click to expand...

Sure, and out of the tens of thousands of players over the years, only a limited number have made the final of all 4 slams, won multiple slams and Masters, the WTFs, the #1 ranking, and was YE#1.

And, Roddick and Wawrinka have accomplished what a limited number of players have accomplished, so I have no problem with them meeting someone's subjective definition of ATG.
 
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