Murray Magic: Back-To-Back Wins Against Federer & Nadal In Toronto

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"You wouldn’t know it from his muted reaction after championship point, but Andy Murray made history with his triumph at the 2010 Rogers Cup.

The Brit hung tough to score a 7-5, 7-5 victory against Roger Federer in a rain-interrupted final, making him the first player to earn back-to-back titles in Canada since Andre Agassi (1994-95). Murray’s first successful ATP Masters 1000 title defence also marked his first tour-level title since prevailing 12 months earlier in Montreal (d. Del Potro).

He powered through a challenging draw in Toronto, outlasting Gael Monfils and David Nalbandian before scoring a straight-sets victory against Rafael Nadal in the semi-finals. Murray’s magical week made him only the fifth player to defeat Federer and Nadal in the same tournament."

www.atptour.com

Andy Murray Magic: Back-To-Back Wins Against Roger Federer & Rafael Nadal In Toronto | ATP Tour | Tennis

Andy Murray defeated Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal en route to defending his title at the 2010 Roger Cup in Toronto.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com
 
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I remember back then people used to refer to Murray as overrated since he could play at such a high level in BO3 but still could not get it done at slams. I’m glad he was eventually able to win a few slams and be number one as he’s clearly too good not to at least have achieved that.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Hewitt pushed Federer harder in 2004-05 slams than Murray pushed Big 3 in 2014-16 slams :) 2015 RG being the sole exception and still 6-1 fifth set. Yet Hewitt is an overachieving hypothetically slamless mug while Murray is a hypothetical double digit slam winner in any other era.
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The field not just Hewitt.
Hewitt didn’t push Fed harder . Fed played a average first set at AO 04 and took his foot of the gas in parts of Wim 04 like parts of the 4th he would tossed Hewitt in the drain in straights in 04. USO 05 was a Fed BH mess at times that’s why Hewitt made it closer.
 
RS said:
The field not just Hewitt.
Hewitt didn’t push Fed harder . Fed played a average first set at AO 04 and took his foot of the gas in parts of Wim 04 like parts of the 4th he would tossed Hewitt in the drain in straights in 04. USO 05 was a Fed BH mess at times that’s why Hewitt made it closer.
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Nah, you aren't vicious enough for such basic trollery to be effective. :)
 
RS said:
That’s harsh. But what I said wasn’t fully trolling. 2015/2016 Murray was better than any Hewitt and everybody from 04-06 apart from Federer and Nadal on clay 05-06.
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Comparing 04-05 and 15-16 slem by slem, best non-Federer player > Murray by level of play at every slem except WB 05 and perhaps RG 04 which is a weird spanner in the works.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Nah, you aren't vicious enough for such basic trollery to be effective. :)
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Lol at calling that trolling. Lol at you calling anyone a troll. Whatever you think of his peak level during that period no one sniffs Murray for consistency in the 04-05 period. There’s no one you could possibly argue had a better two years. Not even Nadal comes close.
 
The Guru said:
Lol at calling that trolling. Lol at you calling anyone a troll. Whatever you think of his peak level during that period no one sniffs Murray for consistency in the 04-05 period.
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Lol at you existing. Basic bum under a verbose mask. At least I can admit my vanity.

Of course mury was a consistency champion but so was peak Ferrer, 2015-16 basically a superior version of Ferrer results/competitiveness-wise, or a more consistent/surface-versatile version of Hewitt if you prefer.

Seriously though:

2004 AO Safin > 2015 AO Murray (not in the final due to exhaustion but then Nalbandian played an equal or better match vs Fred in QF than Mandy gave Djok in F)

2004 WB Roddick (even Hewitt) > 2015 WB Murray

2004 USO Agassi > 2015 USO Murray

2005 AO Safin > 2016 AO Murray

2005 RG Nadal > 2016 RG Murray

2005 USO Hewitt/Agassi > 2016 USO Murray
 
Mainad said:
"You wouldn’t know it from his muted reaction after championship point, but Andy Murray made history with his triumph at the 2010 Rogers Cup.

The Brit hung tough to score a 7-5, 7-5 victory against Roger Federer in a rain-interrupted final, making him the first player to earn back-to-back titles in Canada since Andre Agassi (1994-95). Murray’s first successful ATP Masters 1000 title defence also marked his first tour-level title since prevailing 12 months earlier in Montreal (d. Del Potro).

He powered through a challenging draw in Toronto, outlasting Gael Monfils and David Nalbandian before scoring a straight-sets victory against Rafael Nadal in the semi-finals. Murray’s magical week made him only the fifth player to defeat Federer and Nadal in the same tournament."

www.atptour.com

Andy Murray Magic: Back-To-Back Wins Against Roger Federer & Rafael Nadal In Toronto | ATP Tour | Tennis

Andy Murray defeated Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal en route to defending his title at the 2010 Roger Cup in Toronto.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com
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Remember this win so well, I was living in Prague at the time, and saw a lot of Murray's wins late night at this sports bar/restaurant I used to frequent.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Lol at you existing. Basic bum under a verbose mask. At least I can admit my vanity.

Of course mury was a consistency champion but so was peak Ferrer, 2015-16 basically a superior version of Ferrer results/competitiveness-wise, or a more consistent/surface-versatile version of Hewitt if you prefer.

Seriously though:

2004 AO Safin > 2015 AO Murray (not in the final due to exhaustion but then Nalbandian played an equal or better match vs Fred in QF than Mandy gave Djok in F)

2004 WB Roddick (even Hewitt) > 2015 WB Murray

2004 USO Agassi > 2015 USO Murray

2005 AO Safin > 2016 AO Murray

2005 RG Nadal > 2016 RG Murray

2005 USO Hewitt/Agassi > 2016 USO Murray
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Aside from the bit about equating to him to Ferrer I actually agree with all the stuff here. Though I think the fact that 04 Safin was worse in the final means he’s worse but whatever that’s nitpicking.

You’re still giving him 3/8 slams here though. 04 AO and you omitted 04 RG and W 05.

I think I didn’t understand you. I thought you said someone had a better two years which would be quite obviously insane.
 
The Guru said:
Aside from the bit about equating to him to Ferrer I actually agree with all the stuff here. Though I think the fact that 04 Safin was worse in the final means he’s worse but whatever that’s nitpicking.

You’re still giving him 3/8 slams here though. 04 AO and you omitted 04 RG and W 05.

I think I didn’t understand you. I thought you said someone had a better two years which would be quite obviously insane.
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Two slams. Murray had a better final than Safin in that slam but I doubt 2015 AO Murray would've beaten in-form Roddick and Agassi back-to-back, even Agassi alone is tough enough. Peak Murray would (he wouldn't beat peak Agassi ofc but that wasn't peak/prime due to old movement even if Andre's allstriking was too notch), but AO 2015 wasn't peak Murray by any stretch.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Two slams. Murray had a better final than Safin in that slam but I doubt 2015 AO Murray would've beaten in-form Roddick and Agassi back-to-back, even Agassi alone is tough enough. Peak Murray would (he wouldn't beat peak Agassi ofc but that wasn't peak/prime due to old movement even if Andre's allstriking was too notch), but AO 2015 wasn't peak Murray by any stretch.
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Yeah he probably doesn’t make it through but if he did he wouldn’t be tired. Those would be fun matches. I think Agassi would actually give more trouble than Roddick because Agassi would just abuse his second serve. Murray would have to find a way to knock Andre out of the center of the court and that’d be tough when he has the odd game where he misses too many first serves. I’d say he’s more or less 50/50 with both. I guess it also depends which years court we’re using. Roddick would be a pretty big underdog on the 2015 court imo.

I guess we’ll call it 2.5/8 even though I think the form in the match you lose is the most relevant.
 
The Guru said:
Yeah he probably doesn’t make it through but if he did he wouldn’t be tired. Those would be fun matches. I think Agassi would actually give more trouble than Roddick because Agassi would just abuse his second serve. Murray would have to find a way to knock Andre out of the center of the court and that’d be tough when he has the odd game where he misses too many first serves. I’d say he’s more or less 50/50 with both. I guess it also depends which years court we’re using. Roddick would be a pretty big underdog on the 2015 court imo.

I guess we’ll call it 2.5/8 even though I think the form in the match you lose is the most relevant.
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Fine, the point still stands that rating post-2013 Murray as epic competition when it comes to slam play is entirely frivolous. Slam competition post-2014WB hasn't been markedly better than 2004-05 at any point, and at times markedly worse.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Fine, the point still stands that rating post-2013 Murray as epic competition when it comes to slam play is entirely frivolous. Slam competition post-2014WB hasn't been markedly better than 2004-05 at any point, and at times markedly worse.
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I mean sure he’s not epic but he’s solid. There’s no one you can point to in 04-06 that put up Andy’s level of resistance from post 2014 W until his injuries ended him in 2017. There’s also no one who put up Federer’s level of resistance ... or Wawrinka’s. Sure after the end of Djokovic’s prime/peak and especially after Murrwinka murdered eachother I think competition has been worse than 04-05 but before that and especially in 2015 I think the field was stronger. Also from 2017 on each has benefited relatively equally from the weakened field. Fed 3 slams Nadal 5 slams Djokovic 5 slams.
 
The Guru said:
I mean sure he’s not epic but he’s solid. There’s no one you can point to in 04-06 that put up Andy’s level of resistance from post 2014 W until his injuries ended him in 2017. There’s also no one who put up Federer’s level of resistance ... or Wawrinka’s. Sure after the end of Djokovic’s prime/peak and especially after Murrwinka murdered eachother I think competition has been worse than 04-05 but before that and especially in 2015 I think the field was stronger. Also from 2017 on each has benefited relatively equally from the weakened field. Fed 3 slams Nadal 5 slams Djokovic 5 slams.
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2005 slam competition > 2015 slam competition easy. 2005 Federer 100% handles 2015 Djokovic slam draws except RG which is 50/50. 2015 Djokovic may not beat zoning Safin (let's say 50/50) and is an underdog vs 2005 RGdal.

3 isn't equal to 5. At this current point I accept that as a trade-off for more prime competition on Djokodal's part - but Federer is unlikely to win another slam (even making a final would be a blessing), whereas Djokodal are poised to continue winning slams for years. No equivalence expected.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
2005 slam competition > 2015 slam competition easy. 2005 Federer 100% handles 2015 Djokovic slam draws except RG which is 50/50. 2015 Djokovic may not beat zoning Safin (let's say 50/50) and is an underdog vs 2005 RGdal.

3 isn't equal to 5. At this current point I accept that as a trade-off for more prime competition on Djokodal's part - but Federer is unlikely to win another slam (even making a final would be a blessing), whereas Djokodal are poised to continue winning slams for years. No equivalence expected.
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Would actually probably hand Safin the AO win. 2015 Djokovic was nothing too special at the AO. If a subpar Stan can take him to five, I see no reason why a zoning Safin wouldn’t.
 
Third Serve said:
Would actually probably hand Safin the AO win. 2015 Djokovic was nothing too special at the AO. If a subpar Stan can take him to five, I see no reason why a zoning Safin wouldn’t.
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This is fair but also Djokovic does have a tendency to play up and down to competition. I think he’d raise his level and make it an epic and Djokovic has a tendency to come out on the right end of epics.
 
The Guru said:
This is fair but also Djokovic does have a tendency to play up and down to competition. I think he’d raise his level and make it an epic and Djokovic has a tendency to come out on the right end of epics.
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"Would have played better against a better opponent", isn't that the perfect hypothetical excuse?
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
"Would have played better against a better opponent", isn't that the perfect hypothetical excuse?
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I mean sure but don't you think that it's a pattern in Djokovic's career that he often plays to the level of his competition good or bad. I also do think Djokovic stepped it up in the final so I think that shows he was capable of better than what he showed in the semi. I also think it's totally fair to say Safin's level in 05 was better than Djokovic's in 15 full stop.

As far 05 being stronger than 15 I'm not really seeing it. AO is no doubt stronger but the rest? I'm taking the Crapdal/Murray/God Wawrinka combo over an 18 year old Nadal as good as he was. 15 Fed is much better than 05 Roddick and 15 Fed is much better than 05 Agassi. You could say Hewitt makes up some of that ground as he was better than Murray/Wawrinka in W/USO but I don't think that makes up the ground. I think 3/4 are solidly stronger in 2015.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
"Would have played better against a better opponent", isn't that the perfect hypothetical excuse?
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Don't you think that Roger would have played a lot better if he faced another opponent in RG08 final ? I'm sure he would have won against anybody else, but if we consider his actual level in the final, Monfils (and many other players) would have crushed him.
I really think the argument is perfectly valid, depending on your opponent, you play differently. I think if Nadal had beaten Federer in Wimbledon semi last year, Djokovic would have given a better personal performance than the one that he actually displayed.
 
Bumbaliceps said:
Don't you think that Roger would have played a lot better if he faced another opponent in RG08 final ? I'm sure he would have won against anybody else, but if we consider his actual level in the final, Monfils (and many other players) would have crushed him.
I really think the argument is perfectly valid, depending on your opponent, you play differently. I think if Nadal had beaten Federer in Wimbledon semi last year, Djokovic would have given a better personal performance than the one that he actually displayed.
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Thanks for the support but that's a little different than what I was saying. What you're talking about is matchup I was more referring to level in a vacuum.
 
The Guru said:
This is fair but also Djokovic does have a tendency to play up and down to competition. I think he’d raise his level and make it an epic and Djokovic has a tendency to come out on the right end of epics.
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Sure, but we have no way of knowing if this statement is applicable for the 2015 AO. Could be that Djoker was simply having an “off” period (not unlike Fed’s AO 2006). And I find that more likely given we never saw Djokovic “raise” his level that tournament, unlike AO 2016 or 2019. His level against Murray in the final wasn’t that much better than the semifinal.
 
Bumbaliceps said:
Don't you think that Roger would have played a lot better if he faced another opponent in RG08 final ? I'm sure he would have won against anybody else, but if we consider his actual level in the final, Monfils (and many other players) would have crushed him.
I really think the argument is perfectly valid, depending on your opponent, you play differently. I think if Nadal had beaten Federer in Wimbledon semi last year, Djokovic would have given a better personal performance than the one that he actually displayed.
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Typical, twisting an edge case - the only high profile one like that in Fred's career - to fit a narrative. You're well aware different psychology is at play here. Federer knew he stood absolutely zero chance playing normally so tried to do something wild and failed spectacularly. And zero chance is exactly that, you could simulate that match 1000 times and Federer maybe nabs a set ten times, that's how big of a disparity there was, can't say that about any other big match he played. That's not 'playing down' - the hell? - that's trying to play up when there's no way, and getting thumped accordingly.
 
Bumbaliceps said:
Don't you think that Roger would have played a lot better if he faced another opponent in RG08 final ? I'm sure he would have won against anybody else, but if we consider his actual level in the final, Monfils (and many other players) would have crushed him.
I really think the argument is perfectly valid, depending on your opponent, you play differently. I think if Nadal had beaten Federer in Wimbledon semi last year, Djokovic would have given a better personal performance than the one that he actually displayed.
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Nadal would have made him look better, you mean.
 
The Guru said:
I mean sure but don't you think that it's a pattern in Djokovic's career that he often plays to the level of his competition good or bad. I also do think Djokovic stepped it up in the final so I think that shows he was capable of better than what he showed in the semi. I also think it's totally fair to say Safin's level in 05 was better than Djokovic's in 15 full stop.

As far 05 being stronger than 15 I'm not really seeing it. AO is no doubt stronger but the rest? I'm taking the Crapdal/Murray/God Wawrinka combo over an 18 year old Nadal as good as he was. 15 Fed is much better than 05 Roddick and 15 Fed is much better than 05 Agassi. You could say Hewitt makes up some of that ground as he was better than Murray/Wawrinka in W/USO but I don't think that makes up the ground. I think 3/4 are solidly stronger in 2015.
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Resorting to wearing down 2015ray isn't much of a step up if any, now is it?

:-D Teendal would've bludgeoned them all down like clay.

Typical playing up old bones as well. Like it matters since Peakerer beats Olderеr 10/10 times in BO5 anyway (2006 vs 2017 potential muggery aside), which is far from the truth for Djokovic vs peak Safin let alone Claydal.
 
RS said:
The field not just Hewitt.
Hewitt didn’t push Fed harder . Fed played a average first set at AO 04 and took his foot of the gas in parts of Wim 04 like parts of the 4th he would tossed Hewitt in the drain in straights in 04. USO 05 was a Fed BH mess at times that’s why Hewitt made it closer.
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Apparently, in the 2011 AO final, Djokovic had a poor BH win-loss ratio and still smashed Murray.
 
RS said:
That’s harsh. But what I said wasn’t fully trolling. 2015/2016 Murray was better than any Hewitt and everybody from 04-06 apart from Federer and Nadal on clay 05-06.
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I wouldn't go that far really. Murray wasn't a very difficult opponent for Federer and Djokovic in 2015-2016.

Federer would have made minced meat out of him in 2004-2007.
 
mike danny said:
I wouldn't go that far really. Murray wasn't a very difficult opponent for Federer and Djokovic in 2015-2016.

Federer would have made minced meat out of him in 2004-2007.
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I could only see Fed losing to him in RG 2004 (provided they would even meet) and, if Murray brings top form, AO 2006.
 
The Guru said:
Lol at calling that trolling. Lol at you calling anyone a troll. Whatever you think of his peak level during that period no one sniffs Murray for consistency in the 04-05 period. There’s no one you could possibly argue had a better two years. Not even Nadal comes close.
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Hmmm, Hewitt in 2004-2005 lost to Fed in 5/8 slams just like Murray in 2015-2016 against Fedovic. And Lleyton was the second most consistent in non-clay slams after peak Fed.
 
tennis_pro said:
In the Masters, though.

I feel like that was his peak level.

Murray in the Masters in 2008-2010 > Murray in the Slams in 2012-2013 + 2016
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I definitely wouldn't say that. I mean Murray beat a DGAF Fed a few times at masters, along with a whole host of people in B03 those years. At some point people have to let "6-2" go lol.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
Nadal would have made him look better, you mean.
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No I meant that instead of feeling nervous even before the match, Novak would have felt confident and thrilled to play Rafa because he would have been sure that he was about to win Wimbledon. And that would have make him play better.

For your previous comment :
I chose this specific match because it is an extreme example to show my point of view better, maybe that was counterproductive. Basically I wanted to say that judging a player's level on a day to predict an other hypothetical (just like the other topic Rafa 08/Novak15) doesn't work because everything is influenced by what happened before the match (even every point during a match is influenced by the previous points).
And the player who shows the better level is not even necessarily the one who wins (you could use the example of the level of the 2 finalists of W19 to say that Roger wins the same hypothetical, which is conceivable but of course it didn't happen). Which leads me to say that I expect Djokovic to win most hypotheticals peak for peak against Roger in slam finals, just because of mental superiority, it doesn't matter to me that Roger shows a better level to decide who I expect to win).

As for Djokovic, having lost in 2014 against Stan makes me think that considering that his physical abilites were perfectly fine at the start of 2015, he would have raised his level as much as needed to win against anybody, just like Nadal did in RG17. Maybe that's what happened to Roger in AO07 too.
 
Third Serve said:
I could only see Fed losing to him in RG 2004 (provided they would even meet) and, if Murray brings top form, AO 2006.
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2013 Murray is top form and if he's still allowing 2013 Fed to sneak out tiebreaks he has 0 chance against 2006 Fed. Zero. 06 Fed is going to flat out run Murray over in 1-2 sets because he could still do that, and then Murray is going to make it count basically every opportunity he gets when Fed is off and not let Fed win any of the close sets? No chance, nothing about Murray ever suggests he could do that. Murray is more passive than Davydenko or Baghdatis and that plays into Fed's hands. And Fed can still reach a top level Murray simply can't match.
 
The Guru said:
I mean sure he’s not epic but he’s solid. There’s no one you can point to in 04-06 that put up Andy’s level of resistance from post 2014 W until his injuries ended him in 2017. There’s also no one who put up Federer’s level of resistance ... or Wawrinka’s. Sure after the end of Djokovic’s prime/peak and especially after Murrwinka murdered eachother I think competition has been worse than 04-05 but before that and especially in 2015 I think the field was stronger. Also from 2017 on each has benefited relatively equally from the weakened field. Fed 3 slams Nadal 5 slams Djokovic 5 slams.
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Murray usually went down tamely in slams in 2014-2016? What resistance?

Old Agassi put up a fight on HC similar to 0lderer.

Roddick put up a fight on grass better than 2015erer.
 
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