Murray stats among (other?) ATG

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Your theory doesn't make sense as Murray has denied Djokovic couple of GS, an olympic gold medal, masters titles, YECs title and YE#1. So your theory falls short. Murray has damaged Djokovic more than Wawrinka.

Maybe I just Think Murray is a really great player? The stats show it. Wawrinka is nowhere near it.
Murray stopped Djokovic in 2 slams (and both were in 2012-2013), Wawrinka did in 4. Who cares about masters, LOL? You obviously like how Murray collapsed in all big matches against Djokovic in 2014-2016. Especially in RG 2016 final after the first set. One of the worst performances in a slam final I have ever seen.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Your theory doesn't make sense as Murray has denied Djokovic couple of GS, an olympic gold medal, masters titles, YECs title and YE#1. So your theory falls short. Murray has damaged Djokovic more than Wawrinka.

Maybe I just Think Murray is a really great player? The stats show it. Wawrinka is nowhere near it.

StrangeRule is clearly just another Murray-hating nutter who ignores any facts that might in any way challenge his negative views about Murray. It's impossible to argue with him because he will always ignore any facts that contradict his fantasies. Not even Donald Trump can come up with as much fake news about Murray as he clearly can.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
I really wonder how being terrible in big matches (which is what matters) makes a player an ATG. Murray built most of his legacy by simply being a better player than the likes of Berdych and Raonic and as a result beating them to reach semifinals and finals. For most of his career he couldn't even challenge Federer and Djokovic in big tournaments. Only in 2012-2013 he sometimes did.

I wonder if Jimmy White is an ATG in Snooker? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Murray stopped Djokovic in 2 slams (and both were in 2012-2013), Wawrinka did in 4. Who cares about masters, LOL? You obviously like how Murray collapsed in all big matches against Djokovic in 2014-2016. Especially in RG 2016 final after the first set. One of the worst performances in a slam final I have ever seen.

Lol...how about your hero Stan The Man's impressive performance in the 2017 RG final? He won a magnficent haul of 6 whole games, less than half of what Murray took in that earlier final you seem to have taken so much more umbrage with!

What a clown you are! :D
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray stopped Djokovic in 2 slams (and both were in 2012-2013), Wawrinka did in 4. Who cares about masters, LOL? You obviously like how Murray collapsed in all big matches against Djokovic in 2014-2016. Especially in RG 2016 final after the first set. One of the worst performances in a slam final I have ever seen.

Dude you are pathetic lol. Murray has damaged Djokovic more than Wawrinka legacy wise.

It's Always a reason with you when you don't like an opinion.

Deal with it.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Lol...how about your hero Stan The Man's impressive performance in the 2017 RG final? He won a magnficent haul of 6 whole games, less than half of what Murray took in that earlier final you seem to have taken so much more umbrage with!

What a clown you are! :D
Yeah, because facing Nadal in RG and facing Djokovic in RG is EXACTLY the same thing. Last time when Murray met Nadal in RG he won 6 games himself, and that was against a terrible version of Nadal. On the other hand, how did Wawrinka do the last time when he faced Djokovic in RG? Oh right, he beat him, not collapsed after 1 set.

I wonder how many games would Murray win against Nadal in 2017 final. :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Yeah, because facing Nadal in RG and facing Djokovic in RG is EXACTLY the same thing. Last time when Murray met Nadal in RG he won 6 games himself, and that was a much worse Nadal than the one who showed up in 2017 final.

Is that the time when Murray was on the comeback from his back surgery (2014) when he took most of that year trying to regain his top form and the very fact he managed to get as far as the semi-final at RG at all was remarkable in itself?
 
D

Deleted member 758560

Guest
4 slam deficit isn't just huge, it's gigantic. If Murray had 1 less he'd certainly be greater on the basis of other stats, maybe even if he had 2 less. But 4 is far, far too big a chasm, Wilander's slam haul is more than twice bigger.
да если учесть подоплеку всему этому то получится что не такой уж это и значительный отрыв (и отрыв бы этот быстро испарился поменяй местами игроков), тот же беккер и эдберг не лучше маррея в плане величия, просто попал под жернова сэр энди, будь в такой же ситуации эти два игрока или допустим тот же виландер, картина бы была совсем другая, и не учитывать все это как-то совсем нелепо, (убери джоковича в австралии и получится как минимум скорее всего 2 титула плюсом пойдут в его копилку учитывая сколько финалов он сыграл там, и убери федерера в лондоне и плюс 1 титул еще идет энди, вот тебе в итоге и 6 титулов и звание АТГ (как тут многие знатоки утверждают нужно 6 титулов минимум)
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Is that the time when Murray was on the comeback from his back surgery (2014) when he took most of that year trying to regain his top form and the very fact he managed to get as far as the semi-final at RG at all was remarkable in itself?
And Nadal was at the beginning of one of the worst periods of his career. Had his worst clay season in many years. Can't be compared to 2017 Nadal who was GOATing in the final and totally destroyed Wawrinka who wasn't even that terrible. Anyway, I wonder what is the excuse for 2016?
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
And Nadal was at the beginning of one of the worst periods of his career. Had his worst clay season in many years. Can't be compared to 2017 Nadal who was GOATing in the final and totally destroyed Wawrinka who wasn't even that terrible. Anyway, I wonder what is the excuse for 2016?

Worst clay season, what are you talking about? He won friggin' RG for the 9th time and beat Djokovic in the final!!
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Worst clay season, what are you talking about? He won friggin' RG for the 9th time and beat Djokovic in the final!!
Much worse than 2005-2013, not even close. He lost to Ferrer, Almagro and should have lost to Andujar and Nishikori on clay that year. Struggled in almost every match in Rome and that was without doubt his least impressive RG title.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
Much worse than 2005-2013, not even close. He lost to Ferrer, Almagro and should have lost to Andujar and Nishikori on clay that year. Struggled in almost every match in Rome and that was without doubt his least impressive RG title.

Still won the Big One and beat Djokovic to do it.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Some clarifications:
My case is not about what Murray could have done in another era or without Big 3. My case is about what Murray did.

All Time Greats are by definitions, greater than non-ATG. If you think a player is greater or even a player that you consider an ATG, so he's an ATG too.

If you consider Slam Titles the only way to measure greatness Murray isn't an ATG. That's clear and respectable. But I don't agree. Imho, there are some examples where there is no way a player with more slam is greater than a player with less:
-Kuerten(3) isn't greater than Nastase(2).
-Kriek(2) isn't greater than Roddick(1).
-Bruguera(2) isn't greater than Muster(1).
-Gaudio(1) isn't greater than Rios(0).
-Edmondson(1) isn't greater than Nalbandian(0).
And so on...

So I have to consider other stats, and considering them it's hard to consider Murray not in the same tier of Wilander.
4 slam deficit is huge, I'm aware of this.
But:
-5% points better win rate.
-100+ more wins.
-1% points better slam win rate.
-45 more slam wins.
-13 more titles.
-6 more Master 1000.
-1 WTF.
-2 Olympic Golds.
-21 more weeks at #1.
-7 more GS semifinals.
-7 more Master 1000 finals.
-11 more finals.
-40+ more weeks in top 3.
-100+ more weeks in top 5.
-120+ more weeks in top 10.
-Better statistical peak(According to ELO).

This is pretty huge too. And it's hard to find another stat where Wilander is better than Murray aside from slam titles.
So, for someone who, like me, consider other metrics along slam titles, it's really hard to put Murray in a lesser tier than Wilander when he performed better than him in a lot fo metrics and worse only in one(Although that's the most relevant).


It's only my opinion and I respect who has a case to disagree(And, as said, "Only slam titles are relevant" it's enough). But, from what I'm reading, consensus is splitted, so I feel a bit presumptuos "Murray isn't an ATG, no discussion" case.
If Murray is an ATG, why doesn't he have more majors than Stan who isn't an ATG?
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
да если учесть подоплеку всему этому то получится что не такой уж это и значительный отрыв (и отрыв бы этот быстро испарился поменяй местами игроков), тот же беккер и эдберг не лучше маррея в плане величия, просто попал под жернова сэр энди, будь в такой же ситуации эти два игрока или допустим тот же виландер, картина бы была совсем другая, и не учитывать все это как-то совсем нелепо, (убери джоковича в австралии и получится как минимум скорее всего 2 титула плюсом пойдут в его копилку учитывая сколько финалов он сыграл там, и убери федерера в лондоне и плюс 1 титул еще идет энди, вот тебе в итоге и 6 титулов и звание АТГ (как тут многие знатоки утверждают нужно 6 титулов минимум)
aristotle.jpg
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The problem with putting Murray in the ATG tier is that people are assuming by default that he would easily flourish against the likes of Edberg, Becker, Wilander, Lendl etc. There is no evidence of that.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
But slams are the biggest. An ATG should have more slams than someone who has never even been top 2.

I acknowledge the anomaly but Stan IS an anomaly, the biggest by far in the history of men's tennis (at least in the Open Era). How exactly we should rate Stan should be an interesting debate in itself (without necessarily comparing him only to Murray all the time).
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
The problem with putting Murray in the ATG tier is that people are assuming by default that he would easily flourish against the likes of Edberg, Becker, Wilander, Lendl etc. There is no evidence of that.

Nor can there ever be any evidence of that. It's just nonsense to ever try comparing players from very different eras.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Which is why saying Murray is an ATG just because he dealt with the Big 3 isn't a solid argument.

But you can't prove Murray wouldn't deal with Becker, Wilander etc either.

Oh and btw, Wilander, Becker, Edberg never played someone on the level of Djokodalerer :D
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
But you can't prove Murray wouldn't deal with Becker, Wilander etc either.

Oh and btw, Wilander, Becker, Edberg never played someone on the level of Djokodalerer :D

Murray went down in straight sets against the Big 3 most of the time just like everybody else. The only thing that's remarkable about him is his consistency (y)
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Murray has ATG stats like masters and consistency but he has fallen quite a lot in slams apart from 2012/2013 to ATGs so a little short of a ATG overall. He is getting trashed recently and attacked by certain users though he is still a great player the 4th best in player in this era is something that should be respected. What he does in other eras is speculation obviously but it is clear he has been hurt by 3 GOAT candiadates quite badly.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
But they dealt with several ATG.

Murray did aswell mate. He had to deal with three of the greatest to pick up a tennis racket at the same time. Yet he STILL was able to achieve what he has. He has won everything and achieved everything. That's a testament to his greatness.

Although it was a different era of tennis and how you played the game, I fancy Murrays chances to bag a few slams more if he got to play that level of opponents instead of the supreme level of Djokodalerer.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray went down in straight sets against the Big 3 most of the time just like everybody else. The only thing that's remarkable about him is his consistency (y)

Murray played the best possible opponents on HC and grass, aswell as clay. You are going to have a tough time. He isn't as good as them, but no one said he was either.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Murray played the best possible opponents on HC and grass, aswell as clay. You are going to have a tough time. He isn't as good as them, but no one said he was either.

Again the fact he went down in straights or four sets at best almost always suggests much about his peak level of play.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray has ATG stats like masters and consistency but he has fallen quite a lot in slams apart from 2012/2013 to ATGs so a little short of a ATG overall. He is getting trashed recently and attacked by certain users though he is still a great player the 4th best in player in this era is something that should be respected. What he does in other eras is speculation obviously but it is clear he has been hurt by 3 GOAT candiadates quite badly.

Yea but no one wants to admit the fact that he has had to compete with those 3 for his whole career. Who else of the cemented ATGs has had to deal with such competition? It isn't normal. But you have @NatF who always brings in his straight set beatdowns when you mention these 3 guys like that's gonna be something that made his competition seem less.
 
Murray stats as "only" a 3 time slam champion are amazing, on the level of some ATG for sure. Is murray an ATG? It depends on what you consider an all time great. For me, an ATG is a 5-6 time major winner(like backer) that is remembered and celebrated for ages. Murray, has the stats, except the slam wins, and being on 3 while the rest are on 6 or more is pretty big, and I honestly can't compare him to these guys, but he is the best non ATG there is. If he had won(or will win) 5 slams, I would easily consider him an ATG, and maybe put him above the likes of backer. but as it is he is not an ATG in my opinion.
 

FedeRadi

Rookie
The number of Grand Slams is the most relevant all-time criterion. Most people do consider other criteria, but only if two players are tied in Slams. Other criteria would be some kind of "tie-breaker" in case two players are tied in Slams. This is specially true if two players played in the same era. If two players played in the same era and one of them won less Slam titles, he is simply worse. It would be completely unobjective to rank a player with less Slams over a player with more Slams when they played in the same era. The player with most Slams playing in the same era is the greatest of his era, as other players playing in the same era were not talented/good enough to win as many Slams as him. Because Djokovic is the member of the Big 3 with less Slams, the ad hoc excuse that you do not need the most Slams to be the greatest is typical from Djokovic fans. But for the rest of mortals outside Djokovic fans, everyone knows that he who wins the most Slams is the greatest of his era.

Respectable but strongly disagree, Muster vs Bruguera is a quite clear exception imho. Same era, the player with less slam is the greater by good margin. I think Becker vs Wilander is still a good example and i put Edberg over Wilander too.
And this is from a Nole fan who thinks that Djokovic, at the moment, is greatless than Rafa(I don't want put Federer in the discussion now, competition topic is too large).


With regard to your peak ELO point, I must say that ELO can never be used as a criterion to rank player's greatness. ELO is originally applied to chess, and it is misused out of context in tennis. Plus, there is no official ELO tennis rating, there is only an official ATP rating. Unoffical ELO tennis ratings tend to differ depening on which webpage creates one (Ultimate Tennis Statistics gives a different ELO rasting to players than Tennis Abstract). It means they are unreliable.

Not checked, but I think difference between rantings are marginals. I used UTS one, btw.

Peak ELO can never be a GOAT criterion. Those who praise ELO do not undertand the phenomenon of ELO inflation. We cannot ignore ELO inflation, the phenomenon by which players from the present always have higher ELO rating than players from the past. Murray has a higher peak ELO than Sampras and it does not mean that his level was superior. It only means that Murray could inflate his ELO with victories against the Big 3, while Sampras could not increase his ELO as much because his victories were against players with lower ELO rating. The same phenomenon occurs in chess, players from the present have higher ELO than in the past due to ELO inflation. Yet, no one
claims that a contemporary player like Aronian is greater than a legend like Fisher only because the former achieved a higher peak ELO with the ELO inflation.

You can have inflaction o deflaction, but not sign of either is presents in UTS rating. Top player ratings in early '80s was high, in late '90 and early '00s was low and they was high in late '00s and early '10s. This has a great correlation with top players win % in those seasons.
Sampras has a low Elo Peak because he was inconsistent outside slams.
Elo is clearly not the most important GOAT criterion, but is a good indicator.

I answered point by point in quote.

Murray is closer to Wawrinka than he is to the Big 3. Either both Wawrinka and Murray are ATGs or none of them are.

Big 3 are not the floor of ATG level, they're probably 1st, 2nd and 3rd of all-time. You can argue Becker, Edberg and Wilander, maybe Agassi and Connors too, are closer to non-ATGs like Vilas and Courier than they're to big 3. So they aren't ATG?
Murray is closer, imo, to some consensus ATG(Edberg, Wilander) than he's to non-ATG like Wawrinka or Courier(Slam titles says it's false, all other stats say it's true).

If Murray is an ATG, why doesn't he have more majors than Stan who isn't an ATG?

But slams are the biggest. An ATG should have more slams than someone who has never even been top 2.


I don't think it works in this way. It's not greatness that leads to results. It's results that lead to greatness.
So "Why he doesn't have more majors than Stan, if he's an ATG?" is not the good question. The question is "Why he's an ATG with the same number of majors of a non-ATG?".
And the answer is simple: because he had much better results in nearly all other metrics.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Again the fact he went down in straights or four sets at best almost always suggests much about his peak level of play.

Give him Todd Martin, Schuttler, Clement, Kafelnikov in finals and Im sure his peak level would seem higher.

Agassi is seen as an ATG but he always lost to Sampras in 3 or 4 in finals. He had to wait for Sampras to slow down until he couldn't make as many finals anymore. A perfect example of an opportunity Murray never got to play such opponents in finals. Very rare. When you are as consistent as Murray and beating pretty much the whole tour week in week out you are bound to get some opportunities here and there in your career but he always had to fight Djokodalerer. He still beat them though and bagged a few slams but on several occasions when he beat one of them he had to play the other one to win the trophy.
 
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NatF

Bionic Poster
Yea but no one wants to admit the fact that he has had to compete with those 3 for his whole career. Who else of the cemented ATGs has had to deal with such competition? It isn't normal. But you have @NatF who always brings in his straight set beatdowns when you mention these 3 guys like that's gonna be something that made his competition seem less.

Don't think you understand me at all (y) Murray had fierce competition yes but he fell down meekly most of the time. That doesn't lend itself to him beating other ATG's often at the business end of majors in other eras.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Give him Todd Martin, Schuttler, Clement, Kafelnikov in finals and Im sure his peak level would seem higher.

Agassi is seen as an ATG but he always lost to Sampras in 3 or 4 in finals. He had to wait for Sampras to slow down until he couldn't make as much finals anymore. A perfect example of an opportunity Murray never got. Very rare. When you are as consistent as Murray and beating pretty much the whole tour week in week out you are bound to get some opportunities here and there in your career but he always had to fight Djokodalerer. He still beat them though and bagged a few slams but most of the time when he beat one of them he had to play the other one to win the Trophy.

Murray took advantage of below par Djokovic twice and had an open run at Wimby in 2016. He took his opportunities well (y)
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Don't think you understand me at all (y) Murray had fierce competition yes but he fell down meekly most of the time. That doesn't lend itself to him beating other ATG's often at the business end of majors in other eras.

"But". That's why I mean.

Several of those finals he had to beat one of the big 3 to get to the final and then had to play another in the final.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
"But". That's why I mean.

Several of those finals he had to beat one of the big 3 to get to the final and then had to play another in the final.

If by several you mean exactly three times sure...Those were Nadal at the USO in 2008 and AO 2010, and then Federer at the AO in 2013. Good wins for sure (especially USO 2008) but not more than that. He lost in straights 2/3 of those finals, if that's just mental then there's no reason to assume he romps past lesser ATG players and if it's his tennis then likewise.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Yea but no one wants to admit the fact that he has had to compete with those 3 for his whole career. Who else of the cemented ATGs has had to deal with such competition? It isn't normal. But you have @NatF who always brings in his straight set beatdowns when you mention these 3 guys like that's gonna be something that made his competition seem less.
He has had it tough for sure. 2007-2013 might have been the best period ever.
The problem is in 2015-mid 16 he could have done quite a bit more in the big matches and 3 slams is still a low count.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
This is a very interesting OP, and I admit I didn’t know quite how well Murray compared with other lower tier ATGs, outside of the slam wins.

I guess the key question though is, would the likes of Becker and Edberg have done better against the big 3 than Murray? I think they would.
 

The Guru

Legend
Maybe the talent was there and he got screwed. It doesn't matter. If you have to explain all that to everyone whenever this comes up over the next 50 years, he's not actually an ATG.

You know who else was constantly running into GOATing opponents? All of the Big 3. They overcame it. That's how you become a legend. Andy didn't. It doesn't matter if he technically may have been as or more talented than some guys with 6+ slams. Life's not fair sometimes.
Then it's conceivable that Andy was a better player than some supposed ATGs and at that point what does ATG even mean. Context matters.
 

The Guru

Legend
It's amazing how many posters who are normally pretty thoughtful and interesting spew so much garbage when it comes to Murray. Why is he so hated? I've never been a Murray fan but even the biggest of fools must acknowledge there is a considerable distance between Murray and Wawrinka.
 

clout

Hall of Fame
Murray falls short of ATG status due to the 3 slams but if I were to rank the best players in OE, excluding the ones who played in pre-OE, Murray would likely come in right after those 12 players that OP mentioned
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
It's amazing how many posters who are normally pretty thoughtful and interesting spew so much garbage when it comes to Murray. Why is he so hated? I've never been a Murray fan but even the biggest of fools must acknowledge there is a considerable distance between Murray and Wawrinka.

I don't even rank Wawrinka over Roddick let alone Murray (y)
 
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