4th best player of all time?
I hesitate to put PETE above Murray.. 1 RG final > 0.
Murray vs Fed’s first 10 GS opponents
- Thread starter Nadalgaenger
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I hesitate to put PETE above Murray.. 1 RG final > 0.
AnOctorokForDinner
G.O.A.T.
There was often no one good for Murray to lose earlier to. He only beat one top 10 player in slams in either 2011 or 2014, two in 2015.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
In a specific 7 years timespan:
2004-10 Federer 161-5 (97.0%)
2010-16 Murray 131-7 (94.9%)
2010-16 Djokovic 142-8 (94.7%)
2007-13 Nadal 116-8 (93.6%)
RS
Bionic Poster
Consistency and riding form is a big part of tennis. It does not make him a definite victor which is true. Murray did not draw other tough oppenents but he kept running in to the big 3 at peak level so his chances go up vs Agassi who was not at prime level or Hewitt/Roddick. His chances go up to add more slams even if he runs into in-form players early.
I agree about 2009 Murray he has picked a start to make a point.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Insane
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Let me wager that Roddick and Hewitt didn’t fare as well !
If we factor in peak ELO, average height, average rank of opponent, can we conclude that Djokovic > Nadal > Federer > Murray? In the ATG rankings.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Top10 beaten at Slams:
2010-16 Murray --> 16
2000-06 Hewitt --> 7
2003-09 Roddick --> 5
Fridge
Professional
Murray would probably have not had as much success against those guys as Fed did. But if you put Rafa or Novak against those guys they would go 20-0 most likely.
Rafa and Novak's peaks were against much more difficult competition that Baghdatis or Gonzalez. They would wipe the floor with those guys.
Rafa and Novak's peaks were against much more difficult competition that Baghdatis or Gonzalez. They would wipe the floor with those guys.
D
Deleted member 22147
Guest
2003 W vs Philippousis L - Philippoussis was marvelous in that event, showing all of his talent. Not many beat this Philippoussis.
2004 AO vs Safin - Depends if it was the Safin who came in to the final having played a record number of sets, or a fresh Safin. He has good chances vs spent Safin and next to no chance against fresh Safin. I will say Murray beats spent Safin in no more than 4 sets.
2004 W vs L - Roddick - Roddick was still proactive at this point.
2004 USO vs Hewitt - L - Hewitt did everything better than Murray except serve.
2005 W vs Roddick - W 2012 Murray beats 2005 Roddick. Goldfine loses this one for Roddick.
2005 USO vs Agassi - W - Agassi would struggle with the sheer consistency and Murray's slice and sudden attacks, like Federer's did, knock Agassi off.
2006 AO vs Baghdatis W - Fresh Baghdatis vs Murray is 50/50, as the Cypriot was spectacular in that event. But his body gave way in a massive way, like Safin in 2004.
2006 FO vs Nadal - L - Murray could take a set.
2006 W vs Nadal - L - Murray could never seem to figure out Nadal at Wimbledon.
2006 USO vs Roddick - L - I'm going to say loss, as Roddick seemed reinvigorated at this event and with the crowd behind him wins it, but could easily go the other way.
Many are very close and because Murray always his opponents to dictate, an on-fire opponent like a Philippoussis would dream to play such a player in a slam final. Philippoussis did well against Federer who played his finest match of the event.
2004 AO vs Safin - Depends if it was the Safin who came in to the final having played a record number of sets, or a fresh Safin. He has good chances vs spent Safin and next to no chance against fresh Safin. I will say Murray beats spent Safin in no more than 4 sets.
2004 W vs L - Roddick - Roddick was still proactive at this point.
2004 USO vs Hewitt - L - Hewitt did everything better than Murray except serve.
2005 W vs Roddick - W 2012 Murray beats 2005 Roddick. Goldfine loses this one for Roddick.
2005 USO vs Agassi - W - Agassi would struggle with the sheer consistency and Murray's slice and sudden attacks, like Federer's did, knock Agassi off.
2006 AO vs Baghdatis W - Fresh Baghdatis vs Murray is 50/50, as the Cypriot was spectacular in that event. But his body gave way in a massive way, like Safin in 2004.
2006 FO vs Nadal - L - Murray could take a set.
2006 W vs Nadal - L - Murray could never seem to figure out Nadal at Wimbledon.
2006 USO vs Roddick - L - I'm going to say loss, as Roddick seemed reinvigorated at this event and with the crowd behind him wins it, but could easily go the other way.
Many are very close and because Murray always his opponents to dictate, an on-fire opponent like a Philippoussis would dream to play such a player in a slam final. Philippoussis did well against Federer who played his finest match of the event.
NatF
Bionic Poster
For sure, you have to make the final Sunday to have a chance at winning - that's how Murray won his three slams, by capitalising on the openings.
Obviously his chances are better against Fed's finals opponents for the most part but some of it is luck and timing. Does he fare as well against 2004 Roddick as he did versus 2013 Djokovic at Wimbledon if that's how it lines up? That's just one example of many.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Sounds like Roddick beats Djokovic every time then
No more vulturing Wimbledon titles off that weak sauce Federer who he has a winning H2H with. Time to run with the BIG DOGS!
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
He would have won them all.
Murray would not reach final of 10 Slam events in period of 4 years in first place. You're assuming he is good as peak Fed giving him 10 finals which is wrong. During 2010-13 he made 6 finals (his best). No way he is winning 6/6. So even if he is placed in 2003-06 period instead of Fed, he would win something like 3-4.
The Guru
Legend
It's funny to see that most were instinctually angered about Safin the most. Everyone on here is obsessed with Safin for whatever reason. Safin was horrible in the final because he was exhausted and done. He played ok in the first and after he lost it he mentally gave up and just started spraying errors everywhere. Match analysis by Waspsting:
Anyway this is kinda a ridiculous hypothetical because he doesn't make a lot of these finals anyway.
Anyway this is kinda a ridiculous hypothetical because he doesn't make a lot of these finals anyway.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
I'd give Safin a clear edge at AO04. I'd even make Hewitt at USO04 a coin toss - Hewitt didn't play bad there, Federer was just on another planet.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah I don't understand either. It's like they're picturing 05 SF Safin in the 04 final, when that's definitely not the case. I think Federer probably still would've won that final anyway against a fresher Safin, but there's no getting around the damage that Agassi, Roddick and others inflicted before the final Sunday.
tennis_pro
Bionic Poster
lmao you can't just pencil murray in finals
The problem is that he wastes so much energy on lesser players by the time he gets to the late rounds of the slams he's gassed, take a draw like 2004 AO where he has to beat Nalbandian, Hewitt, Ferrero and Safin all in their primes in a row.
The problem is that he wastes so much energy on lesser players by the time he gets to the late rounds of the slams he's gassed, take a draw like 2004 AO where he has to beat Nalbandian, Hewitt, Ferrero and Safin all in their primes in a row.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Good one, you got me there.Sounds like Roddick beats Djokovic every time then
No more vulturing Wimbledon titles off that weak sauce Federer who he has a winning H2H with. Time to run with the BIG DOGS!
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Yeah Safin the one who gifted Johansson a Slam is some kind of god here.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Lol. Philippousis not equal of Raomug
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Yeah, he's better since he's made slam finals and won a masters title
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Slam score against non-Big4:
Tsonga 116-28 (80.6%)
Raonic 86-22 (79.6%)
Cilic 119-32 (78.8%)
Nishikori 93-25 (78.8%)
Berdych 140-42 (76.9%)
Ferrer 142-49 (74.3%)
Roddick 128-34 (79.0%)
Hewitt 145-48 (75.1%)
Ancic 41-15 (73.2%)
Safin 92-34 (73.0%)
Nalbandian 83-31 (72.8%)
Ferrero 98-40 (71.0%)
The players that Murray routined for years are not worse than the players that Federer routined in 2003-07.
Tsonga 116-28 (80.6%)
Raonic 86-22 (79.6%)
Cilic 119-32 (78.8%)
Nishikori 93-25 (78.8%)
Berdych 140-42 (76.9%)
Ferrer 142-49 (74.3%)
Roddick 128-34 (79.0%)
Hewitt 145-48 (75.1%)
Ancic 41-15 (73.2%)
Safin 92-34 (73.0%)
Nalbandian 83-31 (72.8%)
Ferrero 98-40 (71.0%)
The players that Murray routined for years are not worse than the players that Federer routined in 2003-07.
MeatTornado
Talk Tennis Guru
I've never found that to be his problem. It might be a problem, but it's certainly secondary to the fact that he's simply not as good as the Big 3.
He's had slams where he was clearly the fresher player and still got the doors blown off just the same.
Nadalgaenger
G.O.A.T.
Lol but people on here always say Roddick and Hewitt better than Murray.
Now they’ll just make some ill-founded argument about the field. If anything, the field has gotten better and better as more players around the world get better quality coaching/instruction.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
If you'd been around when Safin entered the stage, you'd still remember how amazed you were to see his level of play. It was sensational. Top serve, top groundstrokes, top net game, strength, speed, strong mental game.
He was also very, very prone to injury. And his attitude was like Tomic's for large stretches. He beat ND in straight sets in Wimbledon after a long injury absence. He was ranked around #80, if memory serves, while Novak was fresh AO Champion and #3 in the world.
Breakpointerer
Legend
Fed above Murray? Are you serious?
Poisoned Slice
Bionic Poster
Safin might be able to win a set off him. Not sure.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
If you'd been around when Kyrgios entered the stage, you'd still remember how amazed you were to see his level of play. It was sensational. Top serve, top groundstrokes, top net game, strength, speed, strong mental game.
He was also very, very prone to injury. And his attitude was like Tomic's for large stretches. He beat Nadal in Wimbledon after a long injury absence. He was ranked outside the top100, if memory serves, while Nadal was fresh RG Champion and #1 in the world.
LOL
Absolutely. Give peak Novak 2003-2007 field and he wins 3 CYGS in a row minimum. Federer never faced anyone on the same level as Murray, Wawrinka, Nishikori and Querrey.
Also that was baby in diapers nadal who lost to Gonzalez in 2007. Peak 33 year old nadal would wipe the floor with him in straights.
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For peak level I’d have 2016 Murray > any version of Federer over a whole season, but gave the nod to Fed for actual slams won.
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Are you high?
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
No.
I'm not saying he was terrible, no player that wins 2 slams is terrible. But he's overrated. He's not the god people think he is, Murray is on a different level.
Some stats from him are embarassing. 76.47% of wins against players ranked outside of the top100, which means he is only the 126th best in the Open Era, behind some journeymen like Dusan Lajovic and... Bernard Tomic!
junior74
Talk Tennis Guru
Safin is a good example of how stats don't tell the whole story.
Breakpointerer
Legend
Yes, 2016 Murray earned more prize money so this makes sense.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Then anyone can say anything, even than Safin is closer to Kyrgios' level than he is to Murray's
RS
Bionic Poster
USO 2012 was a solid draw some luck on the other two. Wim 16 had Tsonga in good form in 3 of the sets and Ranoic who was decent. Wim 13 was the only fully open goal.
Murray 2013 has a harder match with 2004 Roddick than Djokovic but generally this list of oppenents is better than what he got in real life. We know he is not gonna sweep everything or dominate like Federer that is out.
RS
Bionic Poster
2007-2009 and 2011-2013 were fire generally.
2007 with baby diapers nadal infant Djokovic? That goes with the weak transition era 03-07. Djokovic suddenly became peak for one tournament at 08 AO then we saw how strong peak Fed was.
NatF
Bionic Poster
USO 2012 was a good draw and had a very tough match with Lopez and should have been down two sets to Cilic. Kinda case in point that he's not really a dominator.
RS
Bionic Poster
I am giving Federer praise he won 6 slams in a very strong period stop lol.
RS
Bionic Poster
I see Murray being able to win the final he gets to it. I think Agassi of 2004 was strong and Murray is at risk of a loss. Agassi was slower on his feet so maybe could wear him down if he made it physical. Murray seemed less fazed by the wind than Federer at times as well.
NatF
Bionic Poster
Murray in the QF nearly went down 0-2 to Cilic, I think Agassi finishes the job tbh.
RS
Bionic Poster
Might have raised his level vs Agassi like he did vs Berdych/Djokovic. But yeah not really against that.
Standaa
G.O.A.T.
can you pencil murray in USO 19 final? or would he had gassed on berrettini?
NatF
Bionic Poster
Agassi was legit playing great tennis, think even at his best Murray struggles.
Not sure if Murray raised his level lots or the wind was an equaliser.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well, he certainly dominates the H2H with Cilic.
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