Murray vs Stefanos/Zverev on clay: Who's Better?

Murray vs Stefanos/Zverev on clay: Who's Better?

  • Murray over both

    Votes: 16 59.3%

  • Murray over Zverev, not Stefanos

    Votes: 8 29.6%

  • Murray over Stefanos, not Zverev

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Both over Murray

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Total voters
    27
Entername

Entername

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Clay was Murray's worst surface and is one of Stef/Zed's best surfaces.

Zverev leads the pack with 3 Masters compared to Murray (2) and Stefanos (1).

Zverev also leads in titles won (6) compared to Murray and Stefanos (3)

Stefanos leads in win % (74) compared to Zverev (72) and Murray (69)

However, Murray's performance at RG has been better as he made one final and 4 semifinals compared to just one semfinal for Zverev, and 1 RU + 1 SF for Stef.

Stefanos' strongest argument is he was up 2 sets to love on Novak last year so he was the closest to getting his hands on a RG title and is also the youngest
 
Murray by a country mile. None of these young guns have been able to straight set Nadal in a big clay final. Murray also has a 100% win record against Nadal in clay finals which no other has been able to achieve. Comparing those weaklings to Murray is an insult to the Greatest Scottish Tennis Player Of All Time in Singles.

#MuryGOAT #NextGenMugs
 
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Murray was obviously better than both at peak level. Rome '11/16, Madrid '15, RG '15/16 SFs, these two have never played that well on clay. Murray isn't even a natural on the surface but he has shown an ability to actually match peak Novak on clay, played Nadal close (not just that '15 Madrid win over Crapdal).

That being said I have a feeling both will end up with more than a few Clay Masters and continue to improve on the surface.

Tsitsipas has RG winner written all over him; Zverev still has that potential even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

However, unlike on HC/grass I could conceivably see them actually being better clay players than Murray was if they continue to get better.
 
Kralingen said:
Murray was obviously better than both at peak level. Rome '11/16, Madrid '15, RG '15/16 SFs, these two have never played that well on clay. Murray isn't even a natural on the surface but he has shown an ability to actually match peak Novak on clay, played Nadal close (not just that '15 Madrid win over Crapdal).

That being said I have a feeling both will end up with more than a few Clay Masters and continue to improve on the surface.

Tsitsipas has RG winner written all over him; Zverev still has that potential even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

However, unlike on HC/grass I could conceivably see them actually being better clay players than Murray was if they continue to get better.
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You can't go wrong with the guy who has a 100% win rate against Nadal in clay finals. The Greatest Tennis Player that Scotland has ever produced.
 
Kralingen said:
Murray was obviously better than both at peak level. Rome '11/16, Madrid '15, RG '15/16 SFs, these two have never played that well on clay. Murray isn't even a natural on the surface but he has shown an ability to actually match peak Novak on clay, played Nadal close (not just that '15 Madrid win over Crapdal).

That being said I have a feeling both will end up with more than a few Clay Masters and continue to improve on the surface.

Tsitsipas has RG winner written all over him; Zverev still has that potential even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

However, unlike on HC/grass I could conceivably see them actually being better clay players than Murray was if they continue to get better.
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An 'if' the size of the moon, ha.
 
AnOctorokForDinner said:
An 'if' the size of the moon, ha.
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It raises very difficult existential questions about how we define improvement, honestly.

I still haven't seen Zverev play better on clay than he did in Rome 2017 (or Rome/Madrid '18, for that matter). Tsitsipas clearly is improving on clay and has tangible room for improvement in his BH slice and return. However, he already won 60% games on clay and hardly dropped serve at all this clay season...

The point I'm getting at is, what if they don't improve level wise but still end up winning an RG or two?

How do we gauge actual improvement? improvement of results confirms improvement of level? Where will the barometer go once the Big 3 retire?
 
Kralingen said:
It raises very difficult existential questions about how we define improvement, honestly.

I still haven't seen Zverev play better on clay than he did in Rome 2017 (or Rome/Madrid '18, for that matter). Tsitsipas clearly is improving on clay and has tangible room for improvement in his BH slice and return. However, he already won 60% games on clay and hardly dropped serve at all this clay season...

The point I'm getting at is, what if they don't improve level wise but still end up winning an RG or two?

How do we gauge actual improvement? improvement of results confirms improvement of level? Where will the barometer go once the Big 3 retire?
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An ATG talent is desperately needed. All hopes are on Alcaraz now, really. His team seems to manage him well - may that continue. If so, he may get into slam contention already two years from now. I reckon he should end up towering over the silly gens based on his upside/potential.
 
dapchai said:
Murray by a country mile. None of these young guns have been able to straight set Nadal in a big clay final. Murray also has a 100% win record against Nadal in clay finals which no other has been able to achieve. Comparing those weaklings to Murray is an insult to the Greatest Scottish Tennis Player Of All Time in Singles.

#MuryGOAT #NextGenMugs
Click to expand...
That madrid 2015 final was the WORST ever match nadal has ever played on a clay court, gentleman. Not even the horror show against fognini in 2019 comes close to it.
 
dapchai said:
Murray by a country mile. None of these young guns have been able to straight set Nadal in a big clay final. Murray also has a 100% win record against Nadal in clay finals which no other has been able to achieve. Comparing those weaklings to Murray is an insult to the Greatest Scottish Tennis Player Of All Time in Singles.

#MuryGOAT #NextGenMugs
Click to expand...
*British.
 
Kralingen said:
Murray was obviously better than both at peak level. Rome '11/16, Madrid '15, RG '15/16 SFs, these two have never played that well on clay. Murray isn't even a natural on the surface but he has shown an ability to actually match peak Novak on clay, played Nadal close (not just that '15 Madrid win over Crapdal).

That being said I have a feeling both will end up with more than a few Clay Masters and continue to improve on the surface.

Tsitsipas has RG winner written all over him; Zverev still has that potential even if it seems unlikely at the moment.

However, unlike on HC/grass I could conceivably see them actually being better clay players than Murray was if they continue to get better.
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Murray, who was basically a meme on clay most of his career, is better than the top Next Genner on dirt. :-D
 
Zed's clay success is propped up by Madrid which is an unusual event.

Of the three, Stefanos is by far the most natural claycourter. As of now Murray's more accomplished, but I expect the Greek to exceed him at some point.
 
aldeayeah said:
Zed's clay success is propped up by Madrid which is an unusual event.

Of the three, Stefanos is by far the most natural claycourter. As of now Murray's more accomplished, but I expect the Greek to exceed him at some point.
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It shouldn't take much because Murray only had like 3 good clay seasons in his career and 2 of them came at the tail end of his prime.
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
That madrid 2015 final was the WORST ever match nadal has ever played on a clay court, gentleman. Not even the horror show against fognini in 2019 comes close to it.
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Don't underestimate the ability of Sir Andrew Barron MuryGOAT, sir. A win is still a win, especially when it's a straight setter. How many players have beaten Nadal in a big clay final?
Rafa4LifeEver said:
*British.
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He's Scottish and British as well, but I want to emphasize his Scottish heritage.
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
That madrid 2015 final was the WORST ever match nadal has ever played on a clay court, gentleman. Not even the horror show against fognini in 2019 comes close to it.
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What about the horror show against Murray in Madrid the following year (semis on that occasion)? :cool:
 
dapchai said:
Don't underestimate the ability of Sir Andrew Barron MuryGOAT, sir. A win is still a win, especially when it's a straight setter. How many players have beaten Nadal in a big clay final?
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Just the Big 4 in the bigger events. Horacio Zeballos is the only other player to beat Nadal in a clay final (2013 Vina del Mar).
 
For most of Murray’s career he prioritized winning Wimbledon so he had a game geared toward winning on grass — flatter groundstrokes and more slice than most of his peers. In 2015 under the tutelage of Mauresmo and Bjorkman he changed his game and began using less slice and hitting with significantly more topspin. Go back and watch some of his clay court matches from 2015 and you’ll likely be shocked at how infrequently he used the backhand slice. This change was means to become a better clay court player and it paid immediate dividends. Having said that, even with his previous style he still made two Roland Garros semifinals but unfortunately met Nadal in both.

I will say to the day I die that A. Andy’s finest performance of his career with his 2016 Roland Garros semifinal win over Wawrinka and B. That if his 2015 Roland Garros semifinal match against Novak finishes on the day it started Murray would have won.
 
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Mainad said:
What about the horror show against Murray in Madrid the following year (semis on that occasion)? :cool:
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That was not a horror show. Murray played legit good clay court tennis to take down nadal, albeit not a peak or on-fire Nadal, but that was a way better match.
 
MCallanan said:
For most of Murray’s career he prioritized winning Wimbledon so he had a game geared toward winning on grass — flatter groundstrokes and more slice than most of his peers. In 2015 under the tutelage of Mauresmo and Bjorkman he changed his game and began using less slice and hitting with significantly more topspin. Go back and watch some of his clay court matches from 2015 and you’ll likely be shocked at how infrequently he used the backhand slice. This change was means to become a better clay court player and it paid immediate dividends. Having said that, even with his previous style he still made two Roland Garros semifinals but unfortunately met Nadal in both.

I will say to the day I die that A. Andy’s finest performance of his career with his 2016 Roland Garros semifinal win over Wawrinka and B. That if his 2015 Roland Garros semifinal match against Novak finishes on the day it started Murray would have won.
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The slice can be a weapon on clay too.
 
mike danny said:
The slice can be a weapon on clay too.
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It can be yes but based on the frequency in which Murray was using it before 2015 on clay it was more of a detriment than a positive. On grass Murray could regularly use that backhand slice out of defensive positions to neutralize his opponent. On clay that’s not as effective of a tactic.
 
MCallanan said:
It can be yes but based on the frequency in which Murray was using it before 2015 on clay it was more of a detriment than a positive. On grass Murray could regularly use that backhand slice out of defensive positions to neutralize his opponent. On clay that’s not as effective of a tactic.
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Murray's problems were tha his FH and serve weren't strong enough more than his slice, IMO.
 
Rafa4LifeEver said:
That madrid 2015 final was the WORST ever match nadal has ever played on a clay court, gentleman. Not even the horror show against fognini in 2019 comes close to it.
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In terms of rallying off the ground, most certainly. It was awfully bad. On the other hand, Nadal's game in attacking the net was good in the 2015 Madrid final. Without that good net game, Nadal would have been eating bakery products in both sets.

Mainad said:
What about the horror show against Murray in Madrid the following year (semis on that occasion)? :cool:
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Nadal was much better in that match, even losing.
 
Kralingen said:
It raises very difficult existential questions about how we define improvement, honestly.

I still haven't seen Zverev play better on clay than he did in Rome 2017 (or Rome/Madrid '18, for that matter). Tsitsipas clearly is improving on clay and has tangible room for improvement in his BH slice and return. However, he already won 60% games on clay and hardly dropped serve at all this clay season...

The point I'm getting at is, what if they don't improve level wise but still end up winning an RG or two?

How do we gauge actual improvement? improvement of results confirms improvement of level? Where will the barometer go once the Big 3 retire?
Click to expand...

X could be better and X has room for improvement aren’t synonyms. Tsitsipas has an awful return of serve but I don’t see how he is likely to improve it.
 
dapchai said:
Come to think of it, I think Murray has a pretty strong case to be the Greatest British Tennis Player Of All Time in Men's Singles, because statistically he's achieved more than Tim Henman who is an All Time Great British Tennis Player in Men's Singles, according to @TimHenmanATG. I think @Mainad would strongly agree with me.
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In the Open Era.....unarguable.
 
dapchai said:
Come to think of it, I think Murray has a pretty strong case to be the Greatest British Tennis Player Of All Time in Men's Singles, because statistically he's achieved more than Tim Henman who is an All Time Great British Tennis Player in Men's Singles, according to @TimHenmanATG. I think @Mainad would strongly agree with me.
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Obviously Murray is better than Henman. Does anyone argue otherwise?

The only potential rivals to Murray as best British player are Perry and other pre-WW2 players.
 
Mustard said:
In terms of rallying off the ground, most certainly. It was awfully bad. On the other hand, Nadal's game in attacking the net was good in the 2015 Madrid final. Without that good net game, Nadal would have been eating bakery products in both sets.


Nadal was much better in that match, even losing.
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Nadal played that match almost as if he was under the effect of some addictive drugs or alcohol.
 
aldeayeah said:
Zed's clay success is propped up by Madrid which is an unusual event.

Of the three, Stefanos is by far the most natural claycourter. As of now Murray's more accomplished, but I expect the Greek to exceed him at some point.
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Z won Rome in 17 and played Nadal tough in Rome final in 18.
Madrid is where Z has had most success, but he's done well at Rome too.
 
If we're being honest, Tsitsi edges Murray coz of the forehand.. plus his defence on the FH side is ridiculous as well..
 
Tsitsipas has the most natural game for clay out of those three but Murray is the best because he’s simply the best overall player by a significant margin.

It’s like how Murray himself has a more natural grass court game than Djokovic but Novak is certainly the better actual player on that surface.
 
Third Serve said:
Tsitsipas has the most natural game for clay out of those three but Murray is the best because he’s simply the best overall player by a significant margin.

It’s like how Murray himself has a more natural grass court game than Djokovic but Novak is certainly the better actual player on that surface.
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Because Novak has more Wimbledon titles? Yet Murray has more grasscourt titles overall (8 v 7).
 
mike danny said:
Murray's problems were tha his FH and serve weren't strong enough more than his slice, IMO.
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Like I said, prior to 2015 when Murray’s forehand was geared toward success on grass there’s no doubt it was problematic on the dirt. I feel like Medvedev faces a similar problem — with his consistency, rally tolerance and good movement there’s no reason his game shouldn’t translate onto the dirt except that he hits as flat as he does. Similar to pre-2015 Murray, Medvedev’s skill level alone can get him deep into clay tournaments but unless he starts hitting with significantly more topspin or gets a dream draw he’s not going to be a true contender on clay.

But in 2015 Murray began prioritizing his clay court performance and started hitting with much more topspin and became a real deal clay court contender. And during that time he beat the who’s who on that surface sans Federer (Djokovic, Nadal, Wawrinka, Ferrer, Nishikori, et al.).

To answer the initial question I think Zverev and Tsitsipas could’ve beaten pre-2015 Murray on clay or at very least given him a real battle. But as of now I don’t think either would’ve beaten 2015-2016 Murray on clay.
 
MCallanan said:
Like I said, prior to 2015 when Murray’s forehand was geared toward success on grass there’s no doubt it was problematic on the dirt. I feel like Medvedev faces a similar problem — with his consistency, rally tolerance and good movement there’s no reason his game shouldn’t translate onto the dirt except that he hits as flat as he does. Similar to pre-2015 Murray, Medvedev’s skill level alone can get him deep into clay tournaments but unless he starts hitting with significantly more topspin or gets a dream draw he’s not going to be a true contender on clay.

But in 2015 Murray began prioritizing his clay court performance and started hitting with much more topspin and became a real deal clay court contender. And during that time he beat the who’s who on that surface sans Federer (Djokovic, Nadal, Wawrinka, Ferrer, Nishikori, et al.).

To answer the initial question I think Zverev and Tsitsipas could’ve beaten pre-2015 Murray on clay or at very least given him a real battle. But as of now I don’t think either would’ve beaten 2015-2016 Murray on clay.
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A Federer vs Murray match on clay would have been interesting for what it's worth. It's the only Big 4 match-up we didn't get.
 
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