helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
True, but Murray has four extra semi-finals and two extra quarter-finals. So, it depends on how you define "a better record." See my next post!
Murray will end up with a better record than Nadal at 3/4 slams
- Thread starter cockneyDjoker
- Start date
True, but Murray has four extra semi-finals and two extra quarter-finals. So, it depends on how you define "a better record." See my next post!
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
It depends on how you define "a better record." I think there are two major ways of doing that:
1. Lexical ordering: one title outweighs ten finals, one final outweighs ten semi-finals, etc. [This is how the Olympic medal table is ordered in the UK].
2. Formula-based ordering: each round is worth double the previous round, so one final is worth two semi-finals, one semi-final is worth two quarter-finals, etc. [This is how the Olympic medal table is ordered in the USA, I believe].
It would be much more likely that Murray will end up ahead of Nadal at 3/4 Slams if we adopted a formula-based approach than a lexical one. For example, he is already ahead at Wimbledon on the formula-based approach, but he needs either one more title or two finals to pass him on the lexical one.
There are also these definitions:
3. The only things that count are titles. This is silly.
4. The only things that count are titles and head-to-head record. This is also silly.
5. Total ATP points earned: similar to the formula-based approach but with each round worth slightly less than double the previous round. I guess this would be fine, but I think that the ATP's formula should be changed so that each round is worth twice the previous round.
killerboi2
Hall of Fame
I like how you twist the H2H vs Djokovic - 'in slams' - typical. But the H2H vs Fed, largely played on clay - they all count. Sure, pal.
And you left out Nadal's mastery at the WTF...
Lmao, slams are what mostly matter when it comes to GOAT discussion... not like his H2H is terribly one sided against Djokovic in general anyway. Love how people on here either overrate on underate the FO and clay in general depending on their agenda. So his wins don't count now? He's wooped Federer at Wimbledon and AO as well anyway. No one cares about WTF when you have slams to your name. At least you tried to discredit the guy though.
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LOL nice dreams
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Federer has more slams, more weeks at no.1, more WTF titles, better record at 3/4 slams, consistent dominance, dominance of 2 surfaces.
Djokovic is closer to Nadal at the moment, than Nadal is to Federer.
user
Professional
You can come to that conclusion just by looking at number of GS titles. If you choose to analyze other important metrics (like you already did), Djokovic isn't closer to Nadal than Nadal is to Federer. He is very much ahead of Nadal there, maybe even closer to Federer than Nadal is to Djokovic.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
True. Djokovic is ahead of Nadal everywhere except the number of slams.
TheMuzziah
Hall of Fame
Possible but obviously looking rather unlikely at this stage.
For the record, for Murray to be greater then Nadal at the hc slams and Wimbledon, he needs 1 AO and 2 more US Open titles.
For the record, for Murray to be greater then Nadal at the hc slams and Wimbledon, he needs 1 AO and 2 more US Open titles.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Nobody apart from his fanboys consider him a GOAT candidate at the moment, and even most of them know deep inside that he hasn't earned a place in such discussion.
Dilexson
Hall of Fame
Ain't happening, he'll run into peak Fed there.
Antonio Puente
Hall of Fame
Nobody apart from his fanboys consider him a GOAT candidate at the moment, and even most of them know deep inside that he hasn't earned a place in such discussion.
What a joke, right?
- 14, 2nd most slams
- 28 Masters
- Career Golden Slam
- Owned the only player ahead of him, going 9-2 against him in slams
- Faced two tier one greats, and has a combined 19-6 record against them in slams. In fact, he has a combined 7-4 winning record against them in slams outside RG.
Breaking news: the importance placed on weeks at #1 and WTFs by this forum... It's not real. This was born out of the Federer/Nadal debates and only goes back a few years. Prior to that, rarely did you ever hear anyone speak of weeks at #1 or WTFs. To this day, outside of this forum, rarely do you ever hear anyone speak of weeks at #1 or WTFs. I can watch 100 tennis matches and never hear either mentioned. I do, however, constantly hear slam total and head-to-head mentioned. They don't make HBO documentaries about weeks at #1. They do, however, make documentaries about rivalries, head-to-head matchups, and in the coming decades, Fed will forever be tied to Nadal.
The made up TTW metric "better at 3 of 4 slams"? Again, it's not real. It's a concoction of this forum, born out of the Federer/Nadal debates. In the real world, never have I heard such a thing mentioned. In the real world, people only speak of the Career Slam.
V
VexlanderPrime
Guest
No one considers Nadal a GOAT contender anymore...
But Murray would need to do alot more than win an AO and a USO to match Rafa's runs outside RG
You miss the point. The reason Nadal for many is the ultimate goat is he is the most likely to achieve the career slam twice, or at least was the most likely. Weeks at no.1 do not define greatness. Otherwise Marcelo rios would be an all time great!!! Nadal is a goat for many because he is a multiple major winner on hard courts and grass courts and at his best unbeatable on clay. No other player was unbeatable on a surface as nadal so evidently was.
This bizarre argument as to who is better at how many majors is a redundant argument. The reason is because if two guys are within say one title of each other on two of the surfaces but one of the guys has a more consistent record at losing in finals and semi finals but then has a massive deficit in terms of winning on another surface at a major, to most people that player with the huge deficit is clearly an inferior player. It's just common sense.
Had nadal never won a major outside of the French open then you would have a point. However he has won more majors outside the French open than murray, who many say is now an all time great. No offence but your point looks daft and laughably childish
Agassi does! Fox sports do!! Murray does!! Mcenroe does. Wilander does!! Need I go on?
There are a section of Federer and djokovic fans who will never be able to deal with nadal's resume. At their peaks nadal was the dominant player and it does hurt many of them. That is why so many take cheap shots at nadal and try to make the wTf and weeks at no.1 important, which of course is nonsense! Becker was 12 weeks at no.1 but many have him higher than lendl and edberg!! Courier was world no1 a lot longer than becker yet nobody puts him higher than becker. I laugh at idiots who don't think nadal is a goat contender !! It's highly amusing
West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
You totally misinterpreted what I posted. I was just mocking someone who was twisting H2Hs. Then added WTF - which maybe you don't consider a big deal; but many do. It's right under the 4 majors.
Fed won the H2H at Wimbledon. And one bad set at the AO. Oh, and Nadal never showed up at the USO to face Fed.
V
VexlanderPrime
Guest
That was 3 years ago before his career ran into a brick wall at age 27. He has absolutely no argument that his career is in Fed's league. Fed and Laver stand alone in that argument atm. Maybe Djoker can join them
augustobt
Legend
This is not true. Weeks at #1 and YE#1 are regarded as tough achievements and the WTF/TMC is the 5th most prestigious tournament - right after the majors, specially because it's literally the toughest draw (in theory), with you having to play only top 8 players en route to the title.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Nadal was never in the GOAT debate to begin with. It was only the ************* types who elevated him to that status and that was solely based on his H2H with Roger. I don't care if their H2H was 43-1 to Nadal, his slam distribution is a joke compared to Fed's varied slam resume. There is no one on the face of the earth (except maybe Nadal) who would choose this career:
9 FO's
2 W's
2 USO's
1 AO
0 YEC's
141 weeks as #1
over this career:
1 FO
7 W's
5 straight USO's
4 AO's
6 YEC's
302 as #1
----------------------
Any Nadal fan if they were presented with these 2 careers would never choose Nadal's career unless they were clay-obsessed or just plain incapable of reasoning.
Federer's career is vastly superior to Nadal's. Having said that, Nadal is obviously an ATG, the greatest clay player ever and his mental strength is off the charts. If Roger had just half of Nadal's will and mentality, he would have won 25 slams easily, probably more.
augustobt
Legend
Hahahhaha that's quite obvious. I didn't even had to open the thread and read to come to that conclusion.What the OP really meant was: djokovic has to contend with Murray whereas Federer had Nadal. djokovic had a tougher opponent.
So three years ago Nadal had done enough to be GOAT!! U miss the point and defeat your own argument!! U can't undo achievements!! Nadal hasn't lost any of his titles!!!!!!!!
For eternity nadal will be considered goat. So will federer. Djokovic has an argument although I keep seeing a lot of the so called experts pointing out his successes past two years were when nadal declined and Federer was old and that narrative does seem to be spouted a lot . I think it is unfAir personally but at the most extreme level I heard wilander say openly that winning the FO for djokovic was not that big as he didn't beat nadal to do it. Now, djokovic may feel that way who knows, but I don't recall wilander saying the same thing about federEr.
However like it or not nadal is a goat and even if he loses every match for the remainder of his career nothing changes that. You cannot undo greatness.
Actually Id rather have nadal's career. The reason is simple. Ultimately tennis is an individual sport full of Mano e mano rivalries. Titles won is of course careert defining but so is who you beat to win those titles. Nadal beat his chief rivals at their peaks on all surfaces at the majors to win them. The same is not true of federer. Plus for me a singles Olympic gold would be priceless, something federer doesn't have.
Good luck to u if u would rather have federers career. There is no wrong answer here. But personally Id want nadals because I have a very big ego so for me to have winning records over my rivals at the majors and having beat them along the way to win all of them would be really satisfying.
Noleberic123
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic does. Federer does
V
VexlanderPrime
Guest
Nadal has never approached the careers Federer and Lavar. No clue what you're rambling about. And now its pretty clear he won't. On top of that Fed has added to his career at 33/34 with Slam finals in 2015. Rafa is roadkill at 28. He'll never be considered GOAT by anyone but wacky Nadal fans.
He IS an ATG, a top 5-6 all time player. But he's out of any realistic GOAT contention.
Tennis_Hands
Banned
Well, I am not into the GOAT debate, so I will not point out what the criteria of other people are, but to be in the GOAT debate, Nadal has to have comparable achievements with at least the best from the modern era ....... which he clearly doesn't.
Your breaking news are neither breaking news for the *************, nor for the normal world.
For the first, because they are so ignorant, that the only thing that matters is Nadal anyway, and for the second group, because they know their stuff.
The rest of your speculations show that you are amongst ignorant people (obviously not here or at least not many of them).
This is pretty much bold prediction IMO. Murray has to win another USO and AO at least once to have the claim. This is bold cause, it took Murray 3 odd years to end his Slam draught and that he did facing very weak draw in his home tournament. The draws like faced in Wimbledon are very rare, at least considering last decade. Another factor that goes against is his age. There are very few could win multiple Slams post 29. Nobody knows how things will unfold in future, of course. Still I would not bet my money on this, risky.
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Tennis_Hands
Banned
If that happens, it will confirm the overall impression that Nadal is an overachived dirtballer (only on a higher level, reflecting his ATG status).
Most clueless butt hurt post on here of all time! Given Nadal has a golden career slam won three majors on three different surfaces in one season and is joint second in terms of majors won and is the record holder for tournament wins at one major nadal is at worse the second greatest of all time! No offence mate but I'll take agassi and mcenroe a and murrays views over some couch potato like you. Im not being rude but with respect you don't know what you are talking about and simply seem to have had your enjoyment of tennis spoilt by nadal. I pity you.
Correction! That is the view of clueless federer fans who the rest of us laugh at! Give nadal has won almost as many slams outside of the French open as becker and edberg with respect you now realise what an idiot you sound!If that happens, it will confirm the overall impression that Nadal is an overachived dirtballer (only on a higher level, reflecting his ATG status).
So you are saying another 4 majors? When in his career he has three? Getting a bit far fetched this.
NatF
Bionic Poster
I'm addressing the thread not the probability of it happening.
Meles
Bionic Poster
The threshold is 3 US Opens and Murray is not winning two more US Opens, so delete thread.
tennis_commentator
Hall of Fame
I'm certain Nadal will finish with the Double Career Grand Slam, winning a 2nd AO soon.
First man in the Open Era to do it.
Not sure what Murray can do to stand out, since Lendl may not always be available.... plus the odds are he'll only win Wimbledon (that 2012 US Open wasn't exactly convincing).
First man in the Open Era to do it.
Not sure what Murray can do to stand out, since Lendl may not always be available.... plus the odds are he'll only win Wimbledon (that 2012 US Open wasn't exactly convincing).
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
Nadal is not winning another slam outside clay. Murray has a chance of winning the AO and another USO. If that happens he will go down as a greater Hardcourt player than Nadal because of his 6 extra finals. I would already rate Murray above Nadal on grass but another Wimbledon will confirm this.
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
If Murray win AO and another USO then I would rate him as the greater Hardcourt player because of his 6 finals. I wouldn't bet against this happening
abmk
Bionic Poster
Did someone tell you that you are delusional ? Oh wait, I bet a sh*ltload of people did !
That's my point. It's a pointless thread as we could say if nadal gets another 4 he undoubtedly the goat, if djokovic got another 6 he is etc. it's all ifs and buts.
There is an obsession about nadal from some regular posters here who will spend literally their whole day trying to put down his achievements. It's remarkably determined work but ultimately futile.
Personally I'd rather celebrate the fact that we may now have a real proper rivalry for a year or so between murray and djokovic. Any sport thrives on a rivalry and the past two years with Federer and Nadal both way past their best djokovic had not really had a real rival. Not his fault obviously but people buy into tennis when their is a rivalry. Lendl suffered because he never had a consistent rival he kind of bridged two generations. A bit like djokovic, he was always third behind mcenroe and borg in the majors when they were at their peak much like djokovic was to nadal and federEr. But then lendl moved the game on in terms of movement and athleticism and professionalism and became the dominant guy much like Djokovic has done. I say professionalism as he is the first player to treat all tournaments equally, arguably his greatest legacy that will be.
However both lendl and djokovic suffered from not having a true rival during their dominance. If murray now finally steps up to the plate and we have a year or so of real great matches between djokovic and murray both players legacies will be enhanced and we the paying public will be richly rewarded. Nadal and federer are yesterday's news tbh and I think more threads on the new potential rivalry might be nice rather than constant attempts to devalue nadal's unbelievable career on all surfAces.
Being the best runner up is not a measure of greatnessIf Murray win AO and another USO then I would rate him as the greater Hardcourt player because of his 6 finals. I wouldn't bet against this happening
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
I wouldn't rule out Murray winning the USO again and the Australian open. He would then be completely tied with Nadal on all 3 but would've made more finals.
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
I disagree. It shows great consistency to reach all these finals. It's better than losing in the first week of a slam which Nadal has done more times than Murray. Consistency matters.
abmk
Bionic Poster
he would not have more finals at the USO ..
even if murray wins another USO, he'd have 2 USOs,1 f, 1 SF
nadal has 2 USOs, 1 F, 2 SFs
nadal would still be better, just like he's at wimbledon ..
--
AO, yes, he'd be ahead given more finals there ..
now, in the end, its very unlikely that murray wins 4 slams after turning 29 - 1 wimby, 1 AO, 2 USOs - which is what he needs to surpass nadal in 3/4 slams. ...given he has only 3 slams till date ..
Every respected tennis analyst I have heard from mcenroe to agassi to borg to laver , to courier to edberg to murray and indeed djokovic himself all agree that nadal and federer are the two greatest players of the open era. All agree that it's inpossible to compare laver as the game was completely different back then.Well, I am not into the GOAT debate, so I will not point out what the criteria of other people are, but to be in the GOAT debate, Nadal has to have comparable achievements with at least the best from the modern era ....... which he clearly doesn't.
Your breaking news are neither breaking news for the *************, nor for the normal world.
For the first, because they are so ignorant, that the only thing that matters is Nadal anyway, and for the second group, because they know their stuff.
The rest of your speculations show that you are amongst ignorant people (obviously not here or at least not many of them).
The only people who don't have nadal as either goat or second goat are most federer fans and a small section of djokovic fans although those djokovic fans seem to be people who were federer fans then jumped ship to support djokovic , aka anyone but nadal fans!!
Consistency is not a measure of greatness! Ferrer is not an all time great yet he has ben more consistent then say Jim courier...who is innthe hall of fame!!
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
Who knows. Maybe he doesn't manage it. I hope he doesn't because I want Djokovic to win. But Murray seems to be playing his best so it can happen for sure
abmk
Bionic Poster
Who knows. Maybe he doesn't manage it. I hope he doesn't because I want Djokovic to win. But Murray seems to be playing his best so it can happen for sure
its very very unlikely ...saying "he will" is stupid ..
and putting a couple of smileys at the end of your statements doesn't hide the fact that you are a doofus ..
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
You can't possibly compare Ferrer to Murray. If Murray ties Nadal for US opens and Australian opens then the consistency plays a big part in deciding who was greater.
cockneyDjoker
Hall of Fame
I think Murray will end up with a better record at 3/4 slams and when this happens I will bump this thread and let you know how wrong you were.
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