Musetti has done what Thiem, Tsitsipas, Guga, Muster, Wawrinka couldn’t

[FlyingSaucer]

Good info. I was commenting how Musetti thought the court had already translated into clay in set 1. And then he started mixing it up. Variation in pace, spin, height over the net, luring Fritz forward, lobbing, and playing more from inside the baseline. It was a very strong performance, but those who like last man standing duells won't like this type of tennis, which I absolutely love.

I watched some of the match last night and Musetti was very deft with the slice, making Fritz look clumsy in the forecourt.

 

[zagor]

Why? What was his grass game like?

He only made one deep run at Wimbledon (QF and was promptly trashed by Agassi) but it was a very different time, players really did pick the surfaces back then and there wasn't really that much overlap. Wimbledon grass back then was ridiculously unforgiving to players with longer swings and poor volleys. Bounces would just die, only Agassi was able to baseline there with success because of his ridiculous hand eye coordination.

And there's also that Guga was always plagued with injuries and IMO never reached his all-surface peak even though he showed glimpses of brilliance like when he beat Sampras and Agassi back-to-back indoors in 2000 YEC to win the title and finish #1, can you imagine Nadal doing that for example? It was a relatively slow HC (IIRC Ivanisevic complained?) but still.

If dude grew up in this era, had access to medical and physio advancements and used modern equipment IMO he could have easily competed on much much more forgiving slow modern grass. Dude had a big serve actually (once hit 47 aces in a DC match against Canada), was a very good athlete and shotmaker, had great passing shots etc.

 

[zagor]

Guga played tennis in a whole other age and I think is barely comparable.

I know but I firmly believe he would have found his footing on modern grass if he was born in this era.

 

[Vincent-C]

He only made one deep run at Wimbledon (QF and was promptly trashed by Agassi) but it was a very different time, players really did pick the surfaces back then and there wasn't really that much overlap. Wimbledon grass back then was ridiculously unforgiving to players with longer swings and poor volleys. Bounces would just die, only Agassi was able to baseline there with success because of his ridiculous hand eye coordination.

And there's also that Guga was always plagued with injuries and IMO never reached his all-surface peak even though he showed glimpses of brilliance like when he beat Sampras and Agassi back-to-back indoors in 2000 YEC to win the title and finish #1, can you imagine Nadal doing that for example? It was a relatively slow HC (IIRC Ivanisevic complained?) but still.

If dude grew up in this era, had access to medical and physio advancements and used modern equipment IMO he could have easily competed on much much more forgiving slow modern grass. Dude had a big serve actually (once hit 47 aces in a DC match against Canada), was a very good athlete and shotmaker, had great passing shots etc.

I agree that Kuerten would likely do well on current W grass.

 

[mental midget]

I watched some of the match last night and Musetti was very deft with the slice, making Fritz look clumsy in the forecourt.

yep...musetti's fh is very, bigly not suited to this surface, HOWEVER his overall athleticism, touch and improvisational flair very much are. whatever happens from here, this is a result to be proud of for him.

 

[mental midget]

I agree that Kuerten would likely do well on current W grass.

agree. great player, would have his chances to go deep if in form.

 

[Vincent-C]

yep...musetti's fh is very, bigly not suited to this surface, HOWEVER his overall athleticism, touch and improvisational flair very much are. whatever happens from here, this is a result to be proud of for him.

Guessing Djok will test Lorenzo's FH like JMac did Edberg's at USO ('84?).
I hope for a better outcome for the young Italian.

Edit: yeah, '84.

 

[johnmccabe]

Of all the great one handers of the past 25 years, Lorenzo Musetti joins an elite club: winning 5 matches at Wimbledon with a one-handed backhand.

The list is headlined by the obvious grass court specialists: Federer, Sampras, Rafter, etc. Additional one-off runs come from the likes of Haas, Dimitrov and Shapovalov, but those are easily explainable: big serve, attacking FH, quick to approach net, a more “classical” approach to grass tennis in the vein of Becker, Federer, and Sampras.

Conspicuously absent from that list are the most successful non-Federer one handers of the modern era - Tsitsipas, Thiem, Wawrinka, Guga, Muster. Wondrous clay courters who challenged for #1 and also won big titles off of clay, clearly far superior to the likes of Musetti on HC. But why couldn’t they conquer grass, and Musetti can? Why can they play on HC, and he can’t?

Even more confounding is how Musetti does not fit the mold of a traditional grass court player - his forehand is a western mess, clearly the worst on the list, with a NextGen bent wrist takeback, and his serve is the weakest of any player mentioned, especially Tsits, Stan, and Guga.

So he isn’t winning with a forehand, and he definitely isn’t winning with a serve.

But somehow, Musetti and Gasquet have managed to outdo their fellow one handers on grass despite having liabilities for serves and downright poor forehands. Why? How?

If I remember correctly, someone here just called Musetti 4.0 pusher in another thread.

 

[Vincent-C]

If I remember correctly, someone here just called Musetti 4.0 pusher in another thread.

Mmm, unfortunate. I think he'll do ok tomorrow.

 

[mental midget]

Guessing Djok will test Lorenzo's FH like JMac did Edberg's at USO ('84?).
I hope for a better outcome for the young Italian.

Edit: yeah, '84.

i mean...i fully expect novak to come through but...this is why we play the matches, you never know.

 

[ibbi]

I know but I firmly believe he would have found his footing on modern grass if he was born in this era.

I mean, between the 32 seeds and them now doing seedings based purely on rankings he'd have it easier even on the old stuff, but yes, for sure, as all clay guys tend to. You saw it with Ferrero, Moya hardly used to go, but certainly had his best result there after the changes. I'm sure if Guga could have stayed healthy enough into that period he may too have seen improved fortunes. He certainly had the serve for it, and with topspin not being quite the killer on the surface it used to be I'm sure he'd have done better than most of these guys. His run there in 99 is enough to suggest the likelihood.

 

[BenC]

Good info. I was commenting how Musetti thought the court had already translated into clay in set 1. And then he started mixing it up. Variation in pace, spin, height over the net, luring Fritz forward, lobbing, and playing more from inside the baseline. It was a very strong performance, but those who like last man standing duells won't like this type of tennis, which I absolutely love.

I thought it was hilarious. (except the knee at the end, really hope he's ok.)

I've been calling him Taylor "not Swift" and whenever he's not able to dictate play he's usually in trouble.

 

[80s New Wave]

Of all the great one handers of the past 25 years, Lorenzo Musetti joins an elite club: winning 5 matches at Wimbledon with a one-handed backhand.

The list is headlined by the obvious grass court specialists: Federer, Sampras, Rafter, etc. Additional one-off runs come from the likes of Haas, Dimitrov and Shapovalov, but those are easily explainable: big serve, attacking FH, quick to approach net, a more “classical” approach to grass tennis in the vein of Becker, Federer, and Sampras.

Conspicuously absent from that list are the most successful non-Federer one handers of the modern era - Tsitsipas, Thiem, Wawrinka, Guga, Muster. Wondrous clay courters who challenged for #1 and also won big titles off of clay, clearly far superior to the likes of Musetti on HC. But why couldn’t they conquer grass, and Musetti can? Why can they play on HC, and he can’t?

Even more confounding is how Musetti does not fit the mold of a traditional grass court player - his forehand is a western mess, clearly the worst on the list, with a NextGen bent wrist takeback, and his serve is the weakest of any player mentioned, especially Tsits, Stan, and Guga.

So he isn’t winning with a forehand, and he definitely isn’t winning with a serve.

But somehow, Musetti and Gasquet have managed to outdo their fellow one handers on grass despite having liabilities for serves and downright poor forehands. Why? How?

Not sure about musetti but I think in Gasquets case the grass helped his serve a lot because he tended to prefer a slice serve which was harder to return on grass.

 

[NedStark]

I mean, between the 32 seeds and them now doing seedings based purely on rankings he'd have it easier even on the old stuff, but yes, for sure, as all clay guys tend to. You saw it with Ferrero, Moya hardly used to go, but certainly had his best result there after the changes. I'm sure if Guga could have stayed healthy enough into that period he may too have seen improved fortunes. He certainly had the serve for it, and with topspin not being quite the killer on the surface it used to be I'm sure he'd have done better than most of these guys. His run there in 99 is enough to suggest the likelihood.

He went through a bunch of nobodies to get there though, and then Agassi took him to the woodshed.

 

[ChrisJR3264]

He’s an underrated player.
Don’t think he’ll get through Novak but he’s definitely had a good grass season and pushed Novak to 5 at Roland Garros.

 

[junior74]

I thought it was hilarious. (except the knee at the end, really hope he's ok.)

I've been calling him Taylor "not Swift" and whenever he's not able to dictate play he's usually in trouble.

Taylor is not a problem solver. In the absence of a great dream, pettiness prevails.

 

[Kralingen]

My instinct is that his micro footwork and general athleticism and ability to do something unpredictable with the ball is heavily rewarded on grass.

In this era of grass tennis, where the formulaic plan wins, the baseline practice groundstrokes, forcing an opponent out of their comfort zone and not giving them the same ball to attack is paramount.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Richard Gasquet’s effort was particularly improbable. I wish Wawa had won that QF

Shapovalov made some big technical changes prior to his Wimbledon run and started taking the ball much earlier. Needing less setup time on the ball totally changed his effectiveness on grass. There was a brief window of maybe 2 years where he got better on fast courts and was still focused 100% on tennis where he would have been a sneaky chance of a finals run at Wimbledon.

 

[Fairhit]

He slices the majority of his backhands, not much of a threat but effective.

 

[helterskelter]

Tsitsipas had the same draw as Musetti.

Tsitsipas's failure to take advantage of said draw suggests it's not just about draw, but also about variety, slice, and the blocked return. I don't think Tsitsipas would have broken Fritz five times. He might not have broken him at all. Same with Mpetshi Perricard.

Draw is a factor, though.

 

[helterskelter]

Besides Gasquet and Musetti having more variety and probably better slices than some of the others, I think it's also relevant that their relative lack of firepower actually matters more on clay than on other surfaces. (Andy Murray was much better on grass than on clay for this reason). Think of a Tsitsipas v Musetti comparison. Yes, Tsitsipas has a better serve and forehand. But Musetti's serve and forehand at least get some help from grass, whereas on clay they are more likely to be exposed. Also, Tsitsipas's forehand probably isn't the right shot for grass.

 

[NedStark]

But Musetti's serve and forehand at least get some help from grass, whereas on clay they are more likely to be exposed.

Disagree on the forehand part. If anything grass should expose his FH weaknesses against low and hard flat shots even more. Smack a hard shot towards his FH wing and most of the time he won’t able to return a proper running FH. Right now Djokovic is having a field day attacking his FH side. He got away against Perricard who was inexperienced and Fritz who was too immobile and too dumb tactically to figure out his FH.

 

[helterskelter]

Disagree on the forehand part. If anything grass should expose his FH weaknesses against low and hard flat shots even more. Smack a hard shot towards his FH wing and most of the time he won’t able to return a proper running FH. Right now Djokovic is having a field day attacking his FH side. He got away against Perricard who was inexperienced and Fritz who was too immobile and too dumb tactically to figure out his FH.

Yes, that's true. I meant in terms of inability to attack the ball and dominate the rally with it. But you're right about it being defensively vulnerable.

 

[duaneeo]

Wawrinka is perhaps a bit unfair, as he came the closest with the epic 5 setter vs Gasquet in 2015, a legitimately great match. But it’s not like he ever had grass court success - losing early very often even in his prime, and never winning a grass title.

Stan's 2014 4-match WB run is more impressive than Musetti's 2024 5-match WB run.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

His slice is much better I think, I don't remember Wawa, Tsitsipas or Thiem having that slice.