Muster-Agassi 94 French Open

hewittboy

Banned
Muster wasnt even close to the same Muster as 95 or 96 on clay in 1994. The 1995 or 1996 Muster would have spanked Agassi on clay.
 
I wonder how Agassi and Muster think of each other now. There was a genuine respect between the two before Brad Gilbert became Agassi's coach and I believe he poisoned the relationship between the Muster and Agassi. He and Agassi's entourage showed no class at the US Open when Muster and Agassi met in the quarterfinal. People make a point to mention Muster was no angel but it seemed to me he didn't get really surly until the U.S. players started questioning his ranking.

Being unabashedly pro Muster I choose to blame Brad Gilbert completely (sarcasm).
 
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anointedone

Banned
Poor Agassi.
Runner-up to the French Open in 1990 and 1991 despite being the favourite
in both tournaments.
Well the amazing amount of luck he got in winning the 1999 French Open more than makes up for that. He also was very fortunate that Lendl didnt even play the 1990 French to devote all his efforts on making a run to win Wimbledon, otherwise he would have been the runaway favorite that year.
 
The 90s were good for the French Open. There were a lot of quality dirt ballers from all over the world. Now it's an absolute bore.
 

grafrules

Banned
The 90s were good for the French Open. There were a lot of quality dirt ballers from all over the world. Now it's an absolute bore.
I agree. The French Open is my least favorite slam these days. My two favorite slams are the Australian and U.S Opens as that is where mens tennis has the most depth among todays crop, who almost all excel on hard courts.
 
The 90s were good for the French Open. There were a lot of quality dirt ballers from all over the world. Now it's an absolute bore.
I agree with you but I remember all the complaining back then that there were too many clay courters who were ruining the French Open and that a top player would never win it again because they couldn't get by so many clay court specialists in the draw.

I suppose things have to change sometime.
 

!Tym

Hall of Fame
I agree with you to an extent on Muster's "persona" if you will.

In regards to Muster being a good or bad person? I never thought of him as a bad person. He owned Bruguera brutally and would regularly squash the guy's "spirits" and will like a bug, but I never heard Bruguera trash him as not liking him. Just said that he was by far his least favorite opponent because his concentration was so unreal and he felt like he could never match that nor his fitness. If anything, that to me's a compliment, since are the very things Muster prided himself on and imo was the undisputed "best" in those tennis winner's attributes.

I AM, however, well aware of the Ferreira article referenced. Ferreira was if anything one of the more liked and pleasant and gentlemanly and sportsmanlike top players on tour so it probably does say something. This said, he was also imo one of the biggest wastes of all-court talent and God-given cagey athleticism of his generation as well. To me Ferreira did everything really well, his forehand really, really well, but nothing WOW well, and a lot of people think ultimately that's what held him back from ever taking the next step. Imo, he EASILY could have made up for that if he was ever able to channel even just *1/10th* of Muster's FIERY persona.

Muster had the attitude of a Roman gladiator: you're not my friend, this is MY life on the line, so I'm going to have to kill you. And if I don't? Well, ok, so be it, but at least I'll know I *tried to kill you*. Do you get it? It wasn't just a game to Muster, to guys like Muster, Connors, and Lendl; they had to CONVINCE themselves you were out to get them, that you were after their LUNCH MONEY. These are guys who the more they convinced themselves that they hated you and wanted to stop you out like a bug, the better they performed. AND? And like most competitors who reach the top of their profession, they learn to recognize fairly early on what "mindset" results in the most success for them personally. If a person recognizes pretty early on that in order to play his best he has to convince himself that he hates you? Well guess what that person's gonna CONSCIOUSLY try and duplicate that mindstate over and over until it's no longer effective.

That's NORMAL human behavior imo. Why do you think McEnroe still hasn't "grown up" after all these years? It's not because he doesn't know right for wrong, but rather because super brat still thinks this is important and he still wants to WIN a lot more than he'd rather lose. When you still want to WIN, *especially* when you know you're a lot older than your foes, how do you *compensate*? Easy. For McEnroe, staying competitve at his age doesn't necessarily mean he subjects himself to an Agassi/Reyes' like training regime, but rather that when he steps onto the court he makes a secret pact with himself to get ANGRY out there. He *consciously* tells himself it's ok, to still berate an umpire, why? Because he knows that throughout his career, ORCHESTRATING ANGER in the *same exact way that actors do* makes him play better. It's "secret" steroid if you will to combat aging in other words.

He knows that even though he's older than his "peers", if he can "trick" his mind into the far more intense "young buck/touring pro" mindset for the match, then that closes much of the gap between him and his opponents younger legs. In other words, McEnroe WILLS himself to victory on the seniors tour in a way a guy like Muster no longer does or can.

Muster can no longer summon the rage from inside, frankly, because he pretty much stopped caring about the sport entirely once he retired. Some guys like Lendl and Muster, even the stoic "inner" competitors like Borg, once the fire in the belly's been extinguished...it never really comes back. It's weird, because on the seniors tour, one of the very few who still seems to have a GENUINE zest for competing is Rios. You get the sense that he still likes and wants and enjoys challenging his "skills", putting them to the test. That's imo, the biggest reason a lot lof his peers on the seniors tour, say he could and should still be competing on the main tour. You get the sense from many of the seniors, that it wasn't really that they didn't feel like they couldn't compete anymore, but rather that they just didn't *care* enough anymore.

It's a subtle but huge difference at the world level imo. Muster just happened to care MORE than the others during his some might say his short but vulterous despotic reign of terror on tour during his two and a half or so year "prime."

Imo, that was his greatest crime. Muster deep down I never thought was a bad guy. He was, however, more than aware that his tennis success relied on building up that wall of anger around himself, that he knew he wasn't as *naturally* talented as say Bruguera was, but that he realized that despite that he still OWNED him based on what? Based on those very walls. A bull in an isolation tank becomes an angry, distorted, huffing, snorting MAN-BULL...once that gate is opened. The players armed with only a cape and a sword so often had no chance against THAT kind of anger, that *internal* fuel from deep within the coffins, so often simply got overwhelemed by that.

Muster won by overwhelming not just with his potent topspin and power, but also so much more by overwhelming your fight.

Imo, Muster in his "prime" would laugh at Ferreira's comments and snort to himself (or Leitgeb)...haha, and THAT'S why you're a loser bud whose never lived up to his full potential.
 
It was a joke about everything being Gilbert's fault. And I am well aware of the "facts". But if we're going to keep it factual maybe ignorant statements like the 100 Musterfanboys should be kept to a minimum?

And the guys you mention as disliking Muster?

Becker - Mr. Thoughtful who cheats on his pregnant wife?
Gilbert - Please.
Tarango - Who did Tarango like?
Lendl - Did Lendl have any friends?
Skoff - I think that "feud" was more show than anything else.
Courier - I've got nothing bad to say about him.

And Ferreira and Muller sound like a couple of whiny girls with skinned knees.

I'm convinced.

However I can watch my potty mouth, maybe you can be a little more tolerant of opinions on which you disagree?

Or you can keep doing the internet tough guy routine. It works for you, really.
 

bet

Banned
It was a joke about everything being Gilbert's fault. And I am well aware of the "facts". But if we're going to keep it factual maybe ignorant statements like the 100 Musterfanboys should be kept to a minimum?

And the guys you mention as disliking Muster?

Becker - Mr. Thoughtful who cheats on his pregnant wife?
Gilbert - Please.
Tarango - Who did Tarango like?
Lendl - Did Lendl have any friends?
Skoff - I think that "feud" was more show than anything else.
Courier - I've got nothing bad to say about him.

And Ferreira and Muller sound like a couple of whiny girls with skinned knees.

I'm convinced.

However I can watch my potty mouth, maybe you can be a little more tolerant of opinions on which you disagree?

Or you can keep doing the internet tough guy routine. It works for you, really.
AH yes, I mention 7 names (there are many more), and the fact that the players voted him most hated and your response? Bash the other players. But of course, you weren't serious about Gilbert.

Not convinced? Of course not. Never thought you would be. Others can read the thread and decide for themselves, who presented a better argument. Was the dislike of Muster due to Muster himself or was it just everybody else?


Nice try Troll. You've been exposed.
 
Yeah I'm thinking our posts were deleted due to your lack of originality. "You're an idiot" and "nice try troll" don't exactly spring from a fertile mind. All this over a throwaway comment about Brad Gilbert.

Phil Mickelson was voted most hated by his peers and yet he is the most beloved golfer to the general public and golf fans. So cling to your poll as an excuse for your irrational dislike of Muster. I like Muster and I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt even as I know he wasn't an angel during his playing days. I liked watching him play and I liked his candor. Good enough for me.

And actually I like Tarango, Lendl, Skoff and Courier. I just don't think the players you listed are unimpeachable witnesses when it comes to character flaws.

But let the people decide.
 

adidasman

Professional
AH yes, I mention 7 names (there are many more), and the fact that the players voted him most hated and your response? Bash the other players. But of course, you weren't serious about Gilbert.

Not convinced? Of course not. Never thought you would be. Others can read the thread and decide for themselves, who presented a better argument. Was the dislike of Muster due to Muster himself or was it just everybody else?


Nice try Troll. You've been exposed.
Exposed as what? A fan of Muster, supporting his favorite player, hardly qualifies anyone as a "troll." The fact of the matter is that Muster was vastly misunderstood during his playing career, especially here in the States where he didn't play much and was seen as a boor. I would agree heartily with much of what !Tym and no_dark_things have said regarding Thomas; Muster is a favorite of mine as well and I tend to see him in a favorable light as opposed to idiots like Tarango (who I watched at the US Open one year having temper tantrums while playing Edberg, of all people - what a moron!) and Becker (the Monte Carlo classic where Becker accused Muster of using drugs and Muster demanded an immediate drug test is still my favorite tennis story), so I suppose that makes me a troll as well. Was Muster abrasive at times? Sure. Did he antagonize other players at times? Perhaps. Muster was "oppressive", as Paul Annacone once described him, and he used his physicality and his relentless body language as an intimidation device. But was Muster wrong about Brad Gilbert being "a radio - he never shuts up"? I doubt it seriously. I'd guess that, were you to survey guys who know both, Muster would come out higher on the popularity scale than Gilbert. I was at that match at the Open, and Gilbert was clearly yapping away during most of the match when Muster was at his end. (Of course, Gilbert might have done that to all of Agassi's opponents for all I know, but he was most definitely doing it that night - I had binoculars.)

My feeling is that Muster got along with most of the guys on tour pretty well - I even saw him practicing with Sampras once out at Indian Wells, the only time I ever saw Sampras work hard in a practice session, and they seemed to get along fine. Did everyone like Tommy? Probably not, and I'm sure Thomas deserved some of that. But I think you'd have a tough time finding a guy who is universally beloved, save Fabrice Santoro or someone benign like that. I'm sure it was fairly irritating having Muster grind you to pieces on court - it might have made you less apt to want to hang out with him afterwards. But watch a handshake at the end of a Muster match and tell me if you see animosity on the part of his opponent - I've never seen it, even when he butchered a guy like Pioline in front of his home fans at Roland Garros in '95. Look, if you don't like Muster, fine. But he was an incredibly entertaining player to watch, a ferciously hard worker on court, and a fascinating figure off court. At least he had a personality, which is more than you can say for most of the guys on tour.
 

bet

Banned
Yeah I'm thinking our posts were deleted due to your lack of originality. "You're an idiot" and "nice try troll" don't exactly spring from a fertile mind. All this over a throwaway comment about Brad Gilbert.

Phil Mickelson was voted most hated by his peers and yet he is the most beloved golfer to the general public and golf fans. So cling to your poll as an excuse for your irrational dislike of Muster. I like Muster and I'll try to give him the benefit of the doubt even as I know he wasn't an angel during his playing days. I liked watching him play and I liked his candor. Good enough for me.

But let the people decide.
Oh good, now trollboy actually concedes that the indeed, despite his contrary claims, he was highly disliked by his peers. (hardly a controversial premise if you know Muster and tennis) Good boy!!! I never said anything about whether the general public likes him or not. Gotta love fanboys! "No, it was all Gilbert! Muster was beloved by the other players!!!! OH...except all the stupid ones!"

And YOU are the one making a big deal out of your throw-away comment. If you actually know that Muster was extremely unpopular among his peers, all you needed to do was acknowledge it as you now have, but you couldn't admit it and actually tried to defend it by attacking me with profanity and then trying to attack the other players. I've already been through this more than once with the Rios fanboys. What a joke.
 
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bet

Banned
Exposed as what? A fan of Muster, supporting his favorite player, hardly qualifies anyone as a "troll." The fact of the matter is that Muster was vastly misunderstood during his playing career, especially here in the States where he didn't play much and was seen as a boor. I would agree heartily with much of what !Tym and no_dark_things have said regarding Thomas; Muster is a favorite of mine as well and I tend to see him in a favorable light as opposed to idiots like Tarango (who I watched at the US Open one year having temper tantrums while playing Edbe.
READ THE THREAD. I didn't say anything about his playing ability, nor whether you have a right to like him or not. I simply said he was extremely disliked among his peers. The conflict between him and Gilbert/Agassi was hardly unique nor isolated. NO DARK THINGS tried to claim that wasn't so. He then tried to claim that many players would say he was a "great guy" and he said he was not convinced that Muster was unpopular amongst the players. STAY ON TOPIC if you wish your contribution to be taken seriously.

I could write VOLUMES about Muster's game, off-court activities, training, rivalries etc. That isn't what we were discussing.
 
You win bet. I'm going to go back to playing right handed, sell off my Head MG Prestiges, stop dying my hair blonde, switch to a two handed backhand, eliminate topspin from my game, stop speaking with an Austrian accent and no longer cut my hair to imitate a receeding hairline. All because Muster wasn't liked his peers.

Oh wait no I'm not.

You keep insinuating things that never took place. I never claimed Muster was universally liked by his peers. I said plenty of people would say he's a great guy. I have heard stories where he treated workers and ball kids at tournaments with kindness and respect. You listed people that had problems with Muster and my response is most of them have character flaws themselves and are not unimpeachable sources when it comes to pointing out other's flaws. And while I never stated it previously (despite your claim) I'm not convinced that he was disliked by the majority of players on tour.

And now you're the victim? I attacked you? I have been respectful with all my posts on this message board with the exception of my deleted post directed towards you after you called me an idiot. Since you're so keen on getting others to take responsibility for their actions and being accurate with their statements you do the same.

Anyhoo we're not getting anywhere and it's kind of embarrassing telling my friends I'm involved in an internet b!@#h fight on a tennis message board. So I think we should perhaps wind this down.

So I'll leave you with:

"It is a curious subject of observation and inquiry, whether hatred and love be not the same thing at the bottom"
 
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bet

Banned
You win bet. I'm going to go back to playing right handed, sell off my Head MG Prestiges, stop dying my hair blonde, switch to a two handed backhand, eliminate topspin from my game, stop speaking with an Austrian accent and no longer cut my hair to imitate a receeding hairline. All because Muster wasn't liked his peers.

Oh wait no I'm not.
Yes, that's exactly what I said you should do. By the way, I had no idea you were that sad a case of fanboyism.

You keep insinuating things that never took place. I never claimed Muster was universally liked by his peers. I said plenty of people would say he's a great guy.
And I said, yes, there are fanboys who would say that, the other players generally don't.

I have heard stories where he treated workers and ball kids at tournaments with kindness and respect.
Good, tell us about them? Where did you read these stories? Who were the workers? This, of course, has nothing to do with Gilbert or Muster's popularity amongst the players but at least you'd be adding some information.

You listed people that had problems with Muster and my response is most of them have character flaws themselves and are not unimpeachable sources when it comes to pointing out other's flaws. And while I never stated it previously (despite your claim) I'm not convinced that he was disliked by the majority of players on tour.
Of course you didn't, and of course, you aren't. He was only voted #1 most hated by his peers. Quite a number have spoken about it PUBLICLY, gee, wonder what would convince you? LOL. That's right, nothing.

Anyhoo we're not getting anywhere and it's kind of embarrassing telling my friends I'm involved in an internet b!@#h fight on a tennis message board. So I think we should perhaps wind this down.
That's right, good boy. Unless you want to back up your "stories" about the wonderful Muster treatment, there is nothing more to say. I have backed up what I said, you have simply said you refuse to believe it. The end.

If the rankings came down to a survival of the fittest, the indefatigable Muster would be the uncontested No. 1. "He doesn't have the natural ability of Pete or Andre," says veteran South African pro Gary Muller, "but they don't have his tenacity and pure fight." Such testimonials aside, Muster has few boosters. No Viennese choirboy, he mocks opponents, spits in their direction and smashes returns into their chests that easily could be tapped away. "Such a hit intimidates the opponent," he once said. "It shows him my strength and that I do not have the slightest consideration for him."

Which is why many pros regard Muster as a real turnip. "He'd do anything to win, including taking you out," says South Africa's Wayne Ferreira. "If Muster isn't the most hated player on the tour, he's a close second."

"Muster is arrogant, unapproachable and standoffish," says Muller. "There's no reason to dislike him, but there's absolutely no reason to like him."

"Muster has no respect for limited players, which is odd since he's limited himself," says Stephen Noteboom of Holland, a doubles specialist whose lack of a ranking in singles puts him in that category, too.

Muster greets these digs with an insouciant shrug. "I'm not Mr. Nice Guy," he says, grinning like an altar boy who's been cherrying his lips with Communion wine. "I'm a tough cookie."

It takes a lot to get Muster to climb out of his punk armor. "I don't admire any other player," he says, "but I have a lot of respect for a few." Muster chips in an appreciative comment about Sampras ("He doesn't think of winning tournaments, he thinks of winning Slams to be the best player ever") but is backhanded in his remarks about Agassi ("He's not the player Pete is, but he's better to advertise with") and Boris Becker ("At his age, motivating himself to play must take a lot of effort")
 
Ah yes, you keep bringing up the same tired old article about Muster and that that is your proof to refute a point I never made. My only point has been that Muster and Agassi had a good relationship until Brad Gilbert became Agassi's coach.

"Brad is not really a coach," Nick Bollettieri was saying yesterday, while hawking his new book, "My Aces, My Faults."

"He doesn't understand emotions."

In the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that Gilbert succeeded Bollettieri as Agassi's coach, with considerable success and very little graciousness.

"There was no problem between Muster and Andre when I was coaching him," Bollettieri said. "If something has been incited now, then those couple of years had something to do with it.

"Andre's got a long life ahead of him," Bollettieri said. "He's a role model, and there shouldn't be that sort of thing going on between players. A coach doesn't have the right to speak for anybody."

I never mentioned nor do I care what the rest of Muster's peers thought about him. I know a few disliked him but that was never my point. But you have gone off on another tangent completely playing some internet tough guy when I promise you don't have the nerve to talk to people like this face to face. I know real tough guys and they have class, respect for themselves and others. All attributes you are completely lacking. You have been unable to show any modicum of respect therefore you do not deserve any in return.

I've read on these message boards stories about Muster's kindness (you go ahead and look them up), my regular tennis partner met him personally at a tournament and he was very gracious to him and then there is this one tidbit I found with a quick internet search:

On Wednesday afternoon in Hamburg, Thomas Muster invited six children into the Players Lounge as part of the tournament's Kids' Day program. The Austrian showed them around the area which is usually not open to public, offered them sweets and drinks and patiently answered their questions.

I'd say those kids think he's pretty cool.

Again none of these were points I was trying to convey originally but from the safety of your mother's basement you've managed to twist this into something else completely. And I like how you skip over my comment about your claiming to be a victim, getting your facts straight and accepting some responsibility. But that again goes back to being a real man.
 

bet

Banned
Again none of these were points I was trying to convey originally but from the safety of your mother's basement you've managed to twist this into something else completely. And I like how you skip over my comment about your claiming to be a victim, getting your facts straight and accepting some responsibility. But that again goes back to being a real man.
Cut out the nonsense about "mother's basement" and promising I wouldn't talk to you like this. I haven't EVEN BEGUN to talk to you like I would in real life. You're thin grasp of logic and tennis facts are disgusting as is this trolling, I would most certainly tell you this, but the only reason you bring up this tangent is because it is YOU who are likely living large on the internet.

Tell you what. I didn't use any "tough guy" rhetoric and I"m not going to start. Let's make this simple, since it's such a big sticking point for you. LET"S FIND OUT WHO IS REALLY THE "TOUGH GUY". I would never advocate fighting but since you can't shut up about it...

SPECIAL OFFER: Tell me what state you live in. We'll pick a point approximately half-way in between us. In less than 8 weeks time, I'll meet you there. We'll video it for youtube and we'll fight. Deal? Or are you, like your precious Muster, only a tough guy for show? LOL. I am serious, you seem like quite a punk, it'll be fun, I promise!

PS. I've made this simple for you: YES/NO/I'M GONNA BLOW SMOKE AND HOPE NOBODY NOTICES

If either of the latter, stop with the ridiculous insinuations, if the former, good on ya, let's do it.

Send me your email so we can take this off the board.
 
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bet

Banned
Ah yes, you keep bringing up the same tired old article about Muster and that that is your proof to refute a point I never made. My only point has been that Muster and Agassi had a good relationship until Brad Gilbert became Agassi's coach.

"Brad is not really a coach," Nick Bollettieri was saying yesterday, while hawking his new book, "My Aces, My Faults."

"He doesn't understand emotions."

In the interest of fairness, it should be pointed out that Gilbert succeeded Bollettieri as Agassi's coach, with considerable success and very little graciousness.

"There was no problem between Muster and Andre when I was coaching him," Bollettieri said. "If something has been incited now, then those couple of years had something to do with it.

"Andre's got a long life ahead of him," Bollettieri said. "He's a role model, and there shouldn't be that sort of thing going on between players. A coach doesn't have the right to speak for anybody."

I never mentioned nor do I care what the rest of Muster's peers thought about him. I know a few disliked him but that was never my point. But you have gone off on another tangent completely playing some internet tough guy when I promise you don't have the nerve to talk to people like this face to face. I know real tough guys and they have class, respect for themselves and others. All attributes you are completely lacking. You have been unable to show any modicum of respect therefore you do not deserve any in return.

I've read on these message boards stories about Muster's kindness (you go ahead and look them up), my regular tennis partner met him personally at a tournament and he was very gracious to him and then there is this one tidbit I found with a quick internet search:

On Wednesday afternoon in Hamburg, Thomas Muster invited six children into the Players Lounge as part of the tournament's Kids' Day program. The Austrian showed them around the area which is usually not open to public, offered them sweets and drinks and patiently answered their questions.

I'd say those kids think he's pretty cool.

Again none of these were points I was trying to convey originally but from the safety of your mother's basement you've managed to twist this into something else completely. And I like how you skip over my comment about your claiming to be a victim, getting your facts straight and accepting some responsibility. But that again goes back to being a real man.
1.Bolletieri points out that the problem between Muster and Agassi happened when Gilbert was coaching him. Ah...convincing. It WAS Gilbert. My God! Please let nobody seriously operate with logic like this.

2.You claim to have read stories ON THIS BOARD about Muster's goodness. Right.....now that's a source!

3.Your friend met Muster for an autograph and thought he was nice...c'mon...are we supposed to take this seriously? Is there any celeb on planet earth who hasn't been nice to a starry eyed fan for a few seconds?

***************************************************
AT 8:04, Muster walks toward the locker room with Gaudenzi, who smiles at a group of autograph-hunting kids and walks over to appease them. Muster, stone-faced, continues walking, racquet bag over his shoulder. He then hears, repeated twice with a slight crack in the voice, a request from an older man standing at the corner of the court: "my granddaughter is 5 and you are her favorite player. Can she please have an autograph?" He looks slightly annoyed, but nods, signs quickly and keeps walking.
****************************************************



4.One day Muster was nice to some kids. Great. That is admirable of him.

Conclusion: Muster wasn't disliked by the other players.

Problem: numerous other players have publicly (rare for players) said they dislike him. Muster was VOTED #1 most hated BY THE PLAYERS. Muster himself has acknowledged this. He even was asked about the #1 vote!

Yep, it was all Gilbert and yep, no reason to think he was unpopular. Idiot.
 
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Tshooter

Legend
I saw it live.

On a tangent, I also saw Kournikova that tournament. She must have been about 12. She used to make this strange noise when she contacted the ball that sounded like "henri" so the small group watching her began to make a joke that it was for Leconte, who was still playing back then. I think Hingis won the juniors that year.
 
This is my last post regarding our conversation on this thread which has become very popular lately (from 80 viewings to 440 in a very short amount of time). See Muster is popular.

E-mail sent.
 

adidasman

Professional
READ THE THREAD. I didn't say anything about his playing ability, nor whether you have a right to like him or not. I simply said he was extremely disliked among his peers. The conflict between him and Gilbert/Agassi was hardly unique nor isolated. NO DARK THINGS tried to claim that wasn't so. He then tried to claim that many players would say he was a "great guy" and he said he was not convinced that Muster was unpopular amongst the players. STAY ON TOPIC if you wish your contribution to be taken seriously.

I could write VOLUMES about Muster's game, off-court activities, training, rivalries etc. That isn't what we were discussing.
Sorry for intruding in your little hostility seminar. I'll step aside, lest my off-topic comments disturb you further. I had no idea the goal in all this was for YOU to take my thoughts seriously, but, now that I know the rules, I'll glady get out of your way.
 
here's what Muster said prior to playing Agassi at the '96 USO

Q. Back in 1994 when you played Agassi at the French Open and here, you seemed to have a mutual respect and friendship for each other. What went wrong after that?

THOMAS MUSTER: Gilbert, that went wrong.

Q. What did he do?

THOMAS MUSTER: For him, I mean.

Q. What did he do?

THOMAS MUSTER: What?

Q. How did he inject himself into the mix to create a different environment?

THOMAS MUSTER: Gilbert doesn't like anybody. That's not a secret. That's it. I mean, I think Andre is the same. Gilbert never liked me, so that's not a secret either. That's always been his problem. If you have somebody talking to you like a radio all day, you must get nuts.

Q. You said so many nice things about each other back in 1994. Have you ever talked to each other? He said there were so many misunderstandings.

THOMAS MUSTER: We did. We spoke to each other at Monte-Carlo. We had a talk about 45 minutes. I have a lot of respect for the game Andre is playing, what he did in the past. I mean, that's all right. That's what I'm saying, there's no emotions when I go out there and play him, you know, like enemies or something; it's just a tennis match. Everybody's trying to win the match and go into the semifinals.

Q. But did he make clear to you that he respects your game and your achievements?

THOMAS MUSTER: Yeah. I mean, he respects what I do on clay, but his opinion would be probably eight tournaments a year and all played on hardcourts. It cannot only go one way. I mean, you have to respect the others, too. I think, as I said, I respect him as a player and what he did. And he made clear that some things he said in the press, some things which came up in the press, that that wasn't what he said. I mean, it's really hard to believe that every journalist is pulling stories out of their fingers. But, I mean, he apologized for it and that's okay for me.
and afterwards:

Q. You did at one point complain to the referee, I assume it was about the loudness of his box; is that fair to say?

THOMAS MUSTER: It is just not fair that they comment on every shot while I am playing, they are making noise and comments and whatever. I mean, behaving like a bunch of idiots. It is nothing new.

Q. Did you hear specifically what they were saying?

THOMAS MUSTER: I mean, I have to play too, but it is not nice every time you have a shot, something comes out there, you go back to the corner, they go now "break, break," whatever, trying to break my balls, so.....

Q. Do you think they were being loud on purpose to bother you or it is just the way they are?

THOMAS MUSTER: Well, what do you think they say? I mean, what do you think why they do it, because they are nice guys?

Q. I mean, was it specifically aimed toward you to rattle you or they were being loud because they are loud?

THOMAS MUSTER: Come on. You know when they say something, I mean, come on. It is not worth talking about. Don't worry about it.
and Agassi afterwards:

Q. He said he really respects you a lot as a tennis player. Do you feel the same way about him?

ANDRE AGASSI: Yeah, there is no question. I mean, it is nice to feel the respect. Next time I wish he would look me in the eye when you shake hands. I feel like we had a battle out there. But I definitely respect him as a tennis player. He grinds out match after match. He punches in the clock every time he steps on the court and he never loses for lack of effort and there is a lot to respect about that.

Q. Andre, was there some kind of running commentary between your coach, Brad and Thomas in this match or friends of yours and Thomas? He was mentioning some guys were acting like a bunch of idiots. He is seemed to intimate that it wasn't just a normal group of fans. Can you shed any light on that? Was something else going on?

ANDRE AGASSI: I know that I have some enthusiastic supporters, but certainly all of them hold themselves to a standard that would respect, you know, the athletes out there. That --

Q. Andre, his comment was "they were breaking my balls."

ANDRE AGASSI: Breaking my what?

Q. "My balls." (audience laughter)

ANDRE AGASSI: I mean, I can't hear from that side of court. That would certainly surprise me.
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=1097

I guess one good thing about Ashe Stadium is that the players box is so far away from the players that this sort of thing can't really be an issue anymore.
 
That's pretty funny. I had forgotten Muster said they were trying to break his balls. Classic stuff.

I remember on TV (I think right there on the court) after the loss he called them the Agassi fan club and said everyone knows they're not the nicest bunch or something to that effect.

It's a shame cause I know they had a genuine respect for each other and were friendly. I'm sure they're past it now as Muster seems to be way more relaxed than in the past (reasons given in Tym's amazing post) and I think Agassi really matured to a great spokesperson for the game soon after.

I'd pay to see those two play each other from their rocking chairs.
 

bet

Banned
Nope. I am quite certain the lovely and super-popular Muster wasn't too happy with Agassi when 2 years later he said in reply to AGASSI'S statements about him "I don't give a **** what they say" and "the only language that counts, on the court or in the locker room, is winning. Whoever wins is right. Whoever loses fails."

He is a mighty intellectual, much like some of his fanboys.

PS. No Dark Things, just saw your email, you've got to do a bit better than expecting me to travel across the continent, save up your freakin allowance and meet me half-way in neutral territory.
 

bet

Banned
Sorry for intruding in your little hostility seminar. I'll step aside, lest my off-topic comments disturb you further. I had no idea the goal in all this was for YOU to take my thoughts seriously, but, now that I know the rules, I'll glady get out of your way.
OK, sorry. But it was off topic and it's a bit annoying to have a fanboy spreading disinformation and ignorance. That is how so many mistruths get propagated on this board. Those same trolls, lacking in tennis info, then try to attack the person's character AND obfuscate the issues by diverting it to various tangents and claiming one made arguments that one never did. False attribution. You see, it worked. I understand that most people don't have the motivation to read the entire thread and keep the arguments straight in the face of all the distracting noise that trolls throw up, but I must keep MY argument clear and not tolerate misportrayals.
 

bet

Banned
On Saturday, 14th-seeded Thomas Muster was the only loser sore enough to blame his opponent for Mother Nature's rude intrusion into their match. According to Muster, who was upset, 6-3, 6-2, 2-6, 7-5, by the 24th-ranked Jacco Eltingh, the amiable Dutchman took advantage of the adverse weather conditions to turn their match into a circus. To be specific, said the irate Austrian, Eltingh played like a clown.

"When you play like clowns, they don't play tennis; it's just somebody pushing the ball in and running forward and hoping somebody misses or you catch the ball," said Muster, who prefers the baseline attrition to Eltingh's improvisation.

After Eltingh was finished attacking the net, he attacked Muster's sportsmanship.

"On the courts he has a certain kind of attitude that is not really well respected by the other players; when you hear him say things about others and the way they play, it doesn't show a lot of sportsmanship," said Eltingh, who also defended his match strategy.

"Why would I stay on the baseline and play his strength. He likes to run me around for at least four hours if it's up to him, so I'm going to play another way where I make him upset and I can win."


Crud. It's unbelievable the asinine arguments one gets into here. Yes, the makes things warm. No, elephants don't fly. yes, Rios wasn't disliked by the players. No, Left is not right. Santa doesn't exist. Yes, Muster was not well liked by the players. Yes, Your mommy drank too much when she was pregnant. No, women pros can't beat men. No, you can't be a pro player. No, you're not a real tennis instructor in real life. No, you don't have a special formula to make tennis racquets magical.

This is a TENNIS msg board yet, it attracts people who spout off but don't know anything about the topic! OH well, let's just get it on!
 
You know I thought I would let this die off and I was even planning on letting bet go out the "winner" of this sissy internet slap fight but I guess he didn't really mean it when he said we'd take it off the board. But the fact he can't let it go compels me write on last post.

First off challenging someone to meet halfway between the country to fight is the most laughable show of brawn I have ever seen on the internet. It's the same as saying I'll fight anyone who wants to meet me at the international space station. You're pretty safe knowing the same amount of people who can make it to space station is about the same amount of people who are willing to spend money to fly somewhere and fight over Brad Gilbert. So you're pretty much 99.99999999999% percent sure there is never going to be a fight.

Second of all bet was unwilling to let me call him so we can settle this. I promised I'd call once, not post it or give it to anyone else. He did ask for some naughty phone calls but wasn't willing to pay $1.99 a minute for them. But I'm gonna make flight plans to fight someone who knows where based on an internet message board conversation and a couple of e-mails? If you're convinced you haven't EVEN BEGUN to talk to me like you would in real life surely a tongue lashing over the phone wouldn't be a problem for you.

Third of all bet: the scourge of Talk Tennis can also be found posting at Star Trek, comic book, computer and best of all WWE Wrestling message boards. Holy crap dude I wasn't too far off about your mother's basement was I? Normally I wouldn't feel the need to point that out or make fun as Star Trek II is my favorite movie of all time and I've seen Watchmen three times but now I'm definitely not meeting you for a fight. What assurances do I have that you'll set your phaser to stun and not kill?

Well that is truly all this time. I feel like I've worn out my welcome and it really is pretty embarrassing I've been arguing with some kid who probably needs nothing more than a girlfriend and a 30 day supply of the Pro-Active acne cream. I hear Jessica Simpson swears by that stuff!

So again bet, you win, you're a bad dude and I'm a sissy who knows nothing about tennis and is scared to fly to Kansas, the international space station or wherever to fight over Brad Gilbert (who is now teaming up with Bollittieri. Never saw that one coming). I'm not interested in e-mailing as well so I have closed the email account I opened for this message board. Anyways I'm outta here now I've been proven to be a fraud, a troll and worst of all a coward and can no longer to bear my shame here.

Live long and prosper.
 

bet

Banned
Thanks for revealing that you are nothing more than a troll:
1.you accused ME of being the "tough guy" who WOULDN'T say "idiot" to your face. Well I will. You initially said "sure". But 1 mail later and you're saying the idea is ludicrous. Sad. The minute you realize I'm dead serious about it, you suddenly backpeddle on your own declarations.

2.Nope. You don't get my phone number. If voice contact matters to you, send me yours, I'll phone you. Not that there is any need.

3.IF the actual problem was some fear I wouldn't show up (though why wasn't this a problem initially? lol), then all we have to do is ask a 3rd party who posts here and lives in the area we will meet to moderate and insure the encounter takes place.

4.You claim now that your "wife" will kick you ass if you spend the entire (what 80$ in gas! lol) to meet me. Fine, since you are sure I am a basement dweller who won't show up and won't fight you, here's what we do, we each send the moderator 500$, he holds the money, winner takes ALL - you can make a profit!)

5. I didn't say we had to keep all communication on email. YOU SAID THAT. READ THE POSTS. I wanted private communications for the details to limit the boards liability and looky loos for the actual "incident".

6.you can keep up childish insults/jibes all you want, it's pretty obvious who wants is the wannabee internet tough guy who won't come out of his basement.

7. love how you closed your email account! lol. I have sent a grand total of one message reply to you. See entire conversation in next post. You have to love a punk who picks a fight, accuse you of being afraid and then when the fight is on, runs like hell!
 
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bet

Banned
There you are you little scamp. Please like I'm going to fly/drive/ride a bike out of state over Brad ****ing Gilbert and Thomas Muster. Let's not even go into the absurdity of you challenging someone to meet you halfway to God knows where for a fight. You can make that challenge knowing 99.99% of the population isn't remotely dumb enough to try that. All based on e-mail contact only no less. I would imagine someone who would have no problem telling me what's what to my face wouldn't have a problem doing it over the phone. The money to take that little vacation would be better spent on my kids and never mind if my wife found out I was pulling a stunt like that she would **** both of us up. Since I'm not taking a little trip out of state and you're not coming to CA I'll consider this matter over. I have no intention of continuing our chat in the Agassi-Muster thread. No more names no more ********. You can claim victory, tell everyone I *****ed out, I pleaded for mercy, etc. Whatever you like. And I won't deny a thing.

Call me a sport.



> From: datacipher@hotmail.com
> To: blackfrancis0708@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: A couple of tough guys
> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 14:05:42 -0700
>
> NO. You do NOT GET my cell phone. You don't need it. What it TAKES to be
> man, and back up all the crap you spewed is traveling out of your fricken
> state. DO IT. I'm not travelling across the entire continent just to chase
> you around your hometown.
>
> Get serious, or STFU. There is NO TIME commitment, you gotta
> drive/fly/whatever for roughly 24 hours, one way, our entire encounter will
> take 5 min max.
>
> This is gonna be a good time. I promise.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "no_dark_things @ Talk Tennis" <blackfrancis0708@hotmail.com>
> To: <betywhite@hotmail.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 4:57 AM
> Subject: A couple of tough guys
>
>
> >
> > This is a message from no_dark_things at Talk Tennis (
> > http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php ). The Talk Tennis owners cannot
> > accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.
> >
> > To email no_dark_things, you can use this online form:
> > http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=41267
> >
> > OR, by email:
> > mailto:blackfrancis0708@hotmail.com
> >
> > This is the message:
> >
> > While out of state travel is a time and financial burden I probably can't
> > make, I live in California. If meeting you somewhere in this great state
> > is what it takes to get you quit being so demeaning to me on tennis
> > message board of all places then that is something I can do.
> >
> > If you send me your cell number we can discuss this further. I promise
> > not to post it anywhere, give it out to anyone or harrass you with any
> > type of crank calls. Just for us. And from here on out I agree to keep
> > any e-mails or conversations between us private.
> >
> >
>
 

adidasman

Professional
OK, sorry. But it was off topic and it's a bit annoying to have a fanboy spreading disinformation and ignorance. That is how so many mistruths get propagated on this board. Those same trolls, lacking in tennis info, then try to attack the person's character AND obfuscate the issues by diverting it to various tangents and claiming one made arguments that one never did. False attribution. You see, it worked. I understand that most people don't have the motivation to read the entire thread and keep the arguments straight in the face of all the distracting noise that trolls throw up, but I must keep MY argument clear and not tolerate misportrayals.
Wow - how terrifying is it that you took my sarcastic response seriously? Man, you have a bit of an "I am always right" ego problem - and besides, your little battle with no_dark_things is not exactly on topic, either. You are, unless you have something more than just a batch of quotes at your disposal, no more of an authority on this subject than are any of the rest of us. For someone who seems so intent on bashing Muster, you're using many of the same kind of intimidation tactics you have accused him of employing as a player. Perhaps you don't like Muster because you see too much of yourself in his supposed behavior...?
 
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bet

Banned
Wow - how terrifying is it that you took my sarcastic response seriously? Man, you have a bit of an "I am always right" ego problem - and besides, your little battle with no_dark_things is not exactly on topic, either. You are, unless you have something more than just a batch of quotes at your disposal, no more of an authority on this subject than are any of the rest of us. For someone who seems so intent ofn bashing Muster, you're using many of the same kind of intimidation tactics you have accused him of employing as a player. Perhaps you don't like Muster because you see too much of yourself in his supposed behavior...?
You're being an idiot again. READ. I haven't bashed or passed judgement on Muster or his tactics. I've simply corrected the record regarding the silly notion that players loved him or that it was only Gilbert who hated him. MUSTER WAS ONE OF THE MOST DISLIKED PLAYERS ON TOUR. THE END. Make of that what you will.

And second, of course your childish attempt at sarcasm was noted. I took it for what it was worth. NOTHING. You had no content, no reply, only sarcasm. By accepting it, I revealed just how useless it was. That's the problem with sarcasm, it falls desperately flat when there is no actual semantic rebuttle inherent in it.

As for intimidation, there is none. I call an idiot an idiot. Big deal. Worse happens on this board every single day. If you don't to be called an idiot by me, READ the posts, RESPOND logically and don't spread lies or misinformation. Simple...well it should be...accept for idiots.

The only time this thread got sidetracked into intimidation is when another poster, now revealed as a troll who has run away, (yes, READ THE THREAD, he DID THIS REPEATEDLY before I responded to it) kept repeating over and over that I wouldn't say this to his face. (whooo...."idiot"!!!) and I most certainly will. In fact, if I'm forced to travel half way across the continent, you'll get a lot worse than "idiot". But I will, because childish trolls who try to smear what few stand-up poster there are here, deserve contempt and a chance to deal with one in person is well worth a small sum of money and a tiny bit of time. WELL WORTH IT.

PS. So one troll down, lets stop wasting time. Let's all get back to TENNIS content, or get in the car, or shut up.
 
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bet

Banned
You're pathetic, bet. I shan't bother responding to you again.
EXCELLENT! Thanks you for doing what I asked. Since you haven't contributed a single bit of tennis content and made the mistake repeatedly of not even reading what you were responding to, I most certainly think this is for the best. I will respond the same way to any posts of straw man rhetoric, from anybody.
 

tkramer15

Rookie
I just found this thread and thought I would add
Exposed as what? A fan of Muster, supporting his favorite player, hardly qualifies anyone as a "troll." The fact of the matter is that Muster was vastly misunderstood during his playing career, especially here in the States where he didn't play much and was seen as a boor. I would agree heartily with much of what !Tym and no_dark_things have said regarding Thomas; Muster is a favorite of mine as well and I tend to see him in a favorable light as opposed to idiots like Tarango (who I watched at the US Open one year having temper tantrums while playing Edberg, of all people - what a moron!) and Becker (the Monte Carlo classic where Becker accused Muster of using drugs and Muster demanded an immediate drug test is still my favorite tennis story), so I suppose that makes me a troll as well. Was Muster abrasive at times? Sure. Did he antagonize other players at times? Perhaps. Muster was "oppressive", as Paul Annacone once described him, and he used his physicality and his relentless body language as an intimidation device. But was Muster wrong about Brad Gilbert being "a radio - he never shuts up"? I doubt it seriously. I'd guess that, were you to survey guys who know both, Muster would come out higher on the popularity scale than Gilbert. I was at that match at the Open, and Gilbert was clearly yapping away during most of the match when Muster was at his end. (Of course, Gilbert might have done that to all of Agassi's opponents for all I know, but he was most definitely doing it that night - I had binoculars.)

My feeling is that Muster got along with most of the guys on tour pretty well - I even saw him practicing with Sampras once out at Indian Wells, the only time I ever saw Sampras work hard in a practice session, and they seemed to get along fine. Did everyone like Tommy? Probably not, and I'm sure Thomas deserved some of that. But I think you'd have a tough time finding a guy who is universally beloved, save Fabrice Santoro or someone benign like that. I'm sure it was fairly irritating having Muster grind you to pieces on court - it might have made you less apt to want to hang out with him afterwards. But watch a handshake at the end of a Muster match and tell me if you see animosity on the part of his opponent - I've never seen it, even when he butchered a guy like Pioline in front of his home fans at Roland Garros in '95. Look, if you don't like Muster, fine. But he was an incredibly entertaining player to watch, a ferciously hard worker on court, and a fascinating figure off court. At least he had a personality, which is more than you can say for most of the guys on tour.
As an admitted big '90s tennis and Muster fan, I just found/revisited this thread and thought I would add a tidbit. In 1998 in Cincinnati, my family and I watched Muster practice with Australian Jason Stoltenberg for probably an hour. Muster had lost the previous day to Todd Martin after having beaten 11th seeded Tim Henman in the opening round. There were only a dozen or so fans, including us, still there when the session ended. Muster signed autographs and interacted pleasantly with the fans and a couple of tournament workers. We stuck around after Muster departed and chatted briefly with the two workers who were replacing towels, water bottles, etc. Both offered that the players who treated them the nicest were Chang and Muster. Admittedly, Muster was near the end of his career in the summer of 1998 and had seemingly become a bit more carefree. Still, I think the admission from the workers was interesting. The year prior, in 1997, Muster won over the Cincinnati fans during his uncharacteristically outgoing and emotive run to the final.

Many others have spoken about how more of Muster's true personality came out in his last couple of years on tour, whereas he had been so business-like and intentionally intimidating prior to that. I always felt like once he won Roland Garros, won everything he could on clay, achieved the number one ranking and disproved the naysayers by playing outstanding hard court tennis early in 1997, Muster let his guard down a bit. Quite a few came to see him in a different light.
 

Nole_King

Semi-Pro
Agassi loses 5-7 in the 5th. Did any of you see this live? Looked like a great match. Muster was a machine. A tough southpaw.
There were some unbelievable points played here
They seem to put a football commentator behind the mike ..... running commentary during play
 

Subway Tennis

Hall of Fame
I just found this thread and thought I would add


As an admitted big '90s tennis and Muster fan, I just found/revisited this thread and thought I would add a tidbit. In 1998 in Cincinnati, my family and I watched Muster practice with Australian Jason Stoltenberg for probably an hour. Muster had lost the previous day to Todd Martin after having beaten 11th seeded Tim Henman in the opening round. There were only a dozen or so fans, including us, still there when the session ended. Muster signed autographs and interacted pleasantly with the fans and a couple of tournament workers. We stuck around after Muster departed and chatted briefly with the two workers who were replacing towels, water bottles, etc. Both offered that the players who treated them the nicest were Chang and Muster. Admittedly, Muster was near the end of his career in the summer of 1998 and had seemingly become a bit more carefree. Still, I think the admission from the workers was interesting. The year prior, in 1997, Muster won over the Cincinnati fans during his uncharacteristically outgoing and emotive run to the final.

Many others have spoken about how more of Muster's true personality came out in his last couple of years on tour, whereas he had been so business-like and intentionally intimidating prior to that. I always felt like once he won Roland Garros, won everything he could on clay, achieved the number one ranking and disproved the naysayers by playing outstanding hard court tennis early in 1997, Muster let his guard down a bit. Quite a few came to see him in a different light.
Great comments
 
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