My biggest struggle moving from 4.5 to 5.0...

[aminadream]

I'm computer rated 4.5. I took 10 years off tennis after college and have now been back on the court for about 3 and just joined a 5.0 team (also playing 4.5 at the same time).

My biggest issue is finding that sweet spot between consistency and offense at the 5.0 level.

If I'm too offensive, the errors start creeping in. If I bring the offense down a notch, I may be more consistent, but my opponent is more likely to hit a winner or force an error.

Is the best way forward to just do more drills at a faster pace? Or a whole lot more match play at that level?

 

[SinjinCooper]

4.5 represents kind of a dividing line in competitive tennis.

On your way there, climbing ever higher mostly consists of continuing to erase weaknesses. Get your backhand good enough to keep rallying, then get your second serve good enough to stop giving away free points, then get your net game good enough that you can't be pulled in and beaten, etc.

But by the time you're competitive at 4.5, you shouldn't have any really glaring weaknesses. Just relative weaknesses...but also relative strengths.

5.0+ starts to become more about accentuating those strengths. Both by working to practice and enhance them, and also by gameplanning to accentuate them.

So what's your game like?

 

[aminadream]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm more of a baseliner at heart but have been playing more doubles to increase my confidence at the net. It's not that my net game is a weakness... my brain knows that I'm strong up there, it's just that my heart doesn't always believe it.

My backhand and forehand are equally strong. I'm more likely to go for a winner on my forehand side but both are about equally consistent. Well maybe that's a stretch. I'm probably steadier on my backhand side by a little bit. Two-hander. And I love me a good amount of topspin. I'm somewhere between semi and full western. Trying to stay closer to semi to keep my wrist injury from knocking me out.

My first serve is a weapon via variety of direction mostly. Decently paced but nothing crazy. Back when I was a junior it was clocked at about 90 mph. Nowadays with an old shoulder injury, it's probably closer to 80. When I played today my first serve percentage was probably about 80% if I had to guess. I double fault maybe 2-3 times in a match (I didn't today though), and my second serve is about 15% slower than my first with 10% more spin.

If I had to admit a weakness it would be lobbing. I've got to work on getting those suckers deeper. I keep giving people free points during doubles. But when that topspin lob is just right, oohhh man watch out.

Hmmm... what else?

Fitness wise, I could probably do more strength training. I'm 5'8" and about 120 lbs (female). A little bit of a bean pole.

Man, I hope none of my opponents Google me and find this before a match...

 

[SinjinCooper]

Man, I hope none of my opponents Google me and find this before a match...

Go ahead and delete. I'm a quick study.

The game you describe is very friendly to advancement as an opportunistic retriever, and not particularly friendly to advancement anywhere else. High first serve percentage, but serve does not really sound like a weapon. Equally efficient off both wings, but consistency, rather than power is your weapon. Ok. No sense building your game around trying to optimize either wing, a la Graf, Del Potro, etc. But willing and able to come in behind a short ball and end the point at the net as the percentages dictate.

These are good traits, and perfectly excellent to build a game around. It's the same game Chris Evert built her game around. Mats Wilander built his around. Justine Henin.

How familiar are you with Wardlaw's Directionals? Inside/Outside play? Although that stuff is good for any improving player, it's the absolute ****ing bedrock of the opportunistic retriever. You work points, and outlast opponents until they give you something to work with. Then seize upon the percentage play, come in, and close out the point. (If it lasts that long.) That game is about consistency, fitness, and percentages. Are those ideas you're familiar with? That you're using regularly?

 

[aminadream]

So... yes and no. The opponents that are giving me the most problems ARE opportunistic retrievers and the problem is that they either wait for me to make a mistake or they take the opportunity to kill the ball when I'm not attacking and being more patient.

My innate personality is impatient. My nature is to attack too soon, which is why I've been working on the consistency and patience part. Which is basically the crux of my issue: I can't quite find that middle ground.

At least that's what I *think* the problem is.

 

[SinjinCooper]

So... yes and no. The opponents that are giving me the most problems ARE opportunistic retrievers and the problem is that they either wait for me to make a mistake or they take the opportunity to kill the ball when I'm not attacking and being more patient.

My innate personality is impatient. My nature is to attack too soon, which is why I've been working on the consistency and patience part. Which is basically the crux of my issue: I can't quite find that middle ground.

At least that's what I *think* the problem is.

Gotcha.

It sort of sounds like your skill set and your temperament are at odds. There's how you play best, then there's how you prefer to play. At some point, if you're going to keep moving forward, you've got to either accentuate the positive, or eliminate the negative. (Apologies to Bing Crosby.) Those who move forward with your particular EXISTING skillset accentuate three things above all: depth, consistency, fitness. The strengths you describe mean you need to be the one who can go longer without making that mistake or giving up that opportunity to kill the ball.

On the other hand, the desires you describe mean that if you don't have the innate power game needed to take kill shots, that you need to seize upon opportunities to approach the net off of short balls (you DO still get lots of them at 4.5, 5.0, 5.5...), and take advantage of that stuff you've been practicing in doubles.

I ask again: are you familiar with Wardlaw and the basic tenets of percentage play? They describe not only how to best play the role of the retriever, but also how and when to approach. (Assuming you've got -- or are willing to develop -- good approach shots.) And also: how's the fitness situation? If you win the depth and consistency game, can you last longer than the other gal? Without serves or forehands to fall back on as world-ending weapons, and without McEnroe/Navratilova net crashing skills to fall back on, one of the two of those plans almost has to be the path forward for you, if you want to keep moving forward...

 

[aminadream]

Are you familiar with Wardlaw and the basic tenets of percentage play?

Not specifically Wardlaw but I've read a number of other books on the topic and have been coached most of my "growing up years." Are you recommending this book?

And also: how's the fitness situation?

It's, let's say, 80% of where it could be. I don't have excess weight but I could be stronger. Before my recent injury I was playing 2-3 hours per day x 5-6 days per week.

I should also specify that I've been playing 4.5 and 5.0 guys through the week, and then competing with women on the weekends. That's probably a bad combo.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Not specifically Wardlaw but I've read a number of other books on the topic and have been coached most of my "growing up years." Are you recommending this book?



It's, let's say, 80% of where it could be. I don't have excess weight but I could be stronger. Before my recent injury I was playing 2-3 hours per day x 5-6 days per week.

I should also specify that I've been playing 4.5 and 5.0 guys through the week, and then competing with women on the weekends. That's probably a bad combo.

This is a good starting point. It's basically the same stuff that's in that book, and the same basics Paul used to drill into the U of Iowa women when he was here. Once upon a time, it really set his teams apart from teams that weren't prepared to deal with percentage play. It can still offer that kind of advantage against uncoached opponents today...and as importantly, can help you offset any advantage others had been gaining against you previously.

It's not the be-all-end-all, but it'll improve your understanding not only of how to design points, but also of how to anticipate replies and minimize the times you're out of position.

I have very serious doubts that playing 4.5 guys is anything but excellent preparation for the rigors of the 5.0 women's ranks. Most better female players train against dudes when they can. Good policy.

I feel like fitness discussions are kind of beyond the scope of this forum, but I'll just say that I don't think additional strength would likely provide much benefit to you (apart from the obvious benefits it provides to anyone's life, in general). And also that time spent improving your endurance (both raw endurance and high intensity endurance -- i.e., your ability to haul ass and then be ready to haul ass again shortly thereafter) is always a major benefit to the retriever. Just as with a forehand, backhand, or serve, endurance can be a weapon. It's not about being, "good enough," when the goal is to compete at high levels. It's about being better than the other woman.

 

[aminadream]

Most better female players train against dudes when they can. Good policy.

I think where I run into problems is when I get used to the faster and more aggressive men's game and then encounter a patient lady with much less pace to work with. But that's another matter.

Watching video now.

Thanks!

 

[SinjinCooper]

I think where I run into problems is when I get used to the faster and more aggressive men's game and then encounter a patient lady with much less pace to work with. But that's another matter.

Watching video now.

Thanks!

Good luck. Hope some others check in and offer suggestions as well. Let us know how it goes.

 

[aminadream]

This was interestingly structured. In the book Think To Win, there are similar recommendations with geometric explanations that make a lot of mathematical sense. Wardlaw's approach is similar, but much better packaged, which probably makes it much easier for people to remember in the moment (when it matters) and make it a natural part of their game.

Sometimes I break these guidelines, partly because I'm impatient and just want to hit to the open court, and partly because I don't want to appear predictable. But I'm sure that hurts me more than it helps. Sometimes I get into the mentality, "the first person to change direction will win the point" but if I ran the stats on that, I'm sure I'd be dead wrong.

Tomorrow I have a day off the court to rest my wrist but I have a training session on Friday, and then 4.5 and 5.0 singles matches on the weekend. I'll report back.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I think where I run into problems is when I get used to the faster and more aggressive men's game and then encounter a patient lady with much less pace to work with. But that's another matter.

Have you tried much S&V and net attacking? Against the female competition you're describing and your own temperament, it might be a good fit. It's rare at 4.5 Mens and probably even more rare at 5.0 Womens.

 

[aminadream]

I haven't. And I probably haven't because I haven't.

What I mean is, without the practice, I'm not confident doing it, so I don't do it. I'm too afraid of being passed right from the get-go. I might want to consider it in some of my practice matches though and gain some better experience.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I haven't. And I probably haven't because I haven't.

What I mean is, without the practice, I'm not confident doing it, so I don't do it. I'm too afraid of being passed right from the get-go. I might want to consider it in some of my practice matches though and gain some better experience.

The only way to break that cycle is to, in Nike's words, "just do it", consequences out the window.

 

[aminadream]

And you recommend this even with the serve I have?

 

[DNShade]

Just came across this thread and wanted to say what a nice treat it was to read. Someone thoughtful who is an actual player with real questions and then followed up with very good replies. A nice change from some of the crazy we see posted out here!

I concur with most of the above. Without seeing your game in person (or on video) I would say it sounds like you have the consistency thing down but you really need to decide to develop a "weapon". And by that I don't really just mean a point ending shot like a big fh - I'm talking about a game plan that you know if you execute you will win more often than not. If someone outplays you so be it. But you have a winning plan that you can follow.

I do believe especially at the level you are at - that yes S&V can be extremely successful. Just due to the fact that most never come against a decent S&V player these days and don't know what to do to counter it. Especially (no offense indented) against other women - it's just that even fewer women tend to come into net on the regular and therefore play against it even less.

Even with your serve as you describe it it can be a very good ploy. If you have good placement and variety on the serve as you said - then that is perfect for S&V at 4.5 - 5.0. Even if it's isn't huge serve. If it is well placed, a slower spin serve can allow you a bit more time to get in to net and to dictate where to return is going to be hit.

And as S&V-not_dead_yet said - the only way to get good and comfortable with coming in is to do it over and over. Now yes - you will get passed - a lot - but just keep coming in. Keep asking the question of your opponent "can you pass me again? And again? And again?" The more you do it the more you will start to "know" where the pass is going to be hit and read it and be ready etc. And don't underestimate the pressure it puts on your opponent. That pressure can be huge plus in your favor especially in big moments.

Obviously S&V and attacking the net is just one game plan to think about. I think it could be a great one if you already have some decent net skills which it sounds like you do. So many players are used to certain pace and rhythm so the more you can throw them off the better. Coming to net is a great way to do that.

The bottom line is that you need to some up with some kind of game plan that makes your opponents uncomfortable.

 

[FiReFTW]

Would you consider making a video of your play? Peoplr could offer much better advice if they actualy seee how you play and your decision making.

 

[tennisreflectslife]

Great discussion @SinjinCooper and @aminadream , I enjoyed ! @SinjinCooper you always have great advice.

@aminadream I agree with all the stuff Sinjin said, some additional points I would like to add:
1. I feel removing the negatives and adding the positives can be done at the same time. But its still a game of percentages, so being aggressive shouldn't mean giving away many points in any situation. Topspin and depth and polyester strings are our friends! Try to work on getting into better and better position before hitting every shot. This will require improving anticipation, split-steps, recovery after shots, tiny-fast adjustment steps and overall fitness (both long tern and high intensity). Once you feel your positioning is getting better for most shots on average, you will also feel your aggressive shots are getting more consistent. You can ask someone to hand feed you different types of balls to practice.
2. I feel there is always scope to adds RHS and effortless power at our level into most shots. You can work on being relaxed and whippy with the arm and using core muscles effectively (getting low to use legs, and using core muscles). But its hard to practice these while working on other things, so work on these separately with someone feeding you balls or in rallies.
3. Same with serve and returns too, i feel there is always room to improve, and any investment (and following improvement) in serve and returns is just golden in matches. I wont go into details about serve here, but try to again have very relaxed arms and use the shoulders and core to go at the ball, at your level u must be having continental grip and pronation i guess.
4. In summary, to go up a level, you will need to have (relatively) more dependable attacking shots (comes from topspin, RHS and better positioning), be able to handle (relatively) higher level shots with ease during points (comes from better positioning and improved timing/contact) and better defense (comes from better positioning and fitness). While you are improving these I guess will also find naturally the best mix of attack, counter-punch and defense for you game.

PS: For you original question, I would say if you feel you have to attack to stay in points (as your defense is getting punished), think of attack as a more depth and more topspin. Keep playing with players better than yourself and you will keep improving. And don't forget to have fun out there !!

 

[maleyoyo]

A buddy of mine, is also in transition from 4.5 to 5.0. He went to a few open tournament and got killed every time. He told me the biggest challenges were fitness and hitting consistent quality balls that are not attackable. Because he said all it takes is coughing up one ball and the point is over.
Last summer he started working on his fitness and trying to shed 10 lbs. He worked with a pro and bought a ball machine. Basically he just cranked up the ball machine and hit lots of balls with consistent depth and spin.

 

[aminadream]

Just came across this thread and wanted to say what a nice treat it was to read.

Agreed! I'm loving this discussion!

If you have good placement and variety on the serve as you said - then that is perfect for S&V at 4.5 - 5.0. Even if it's isn't huge serve. If it is well placed, a slower spin serve can allow you a bit more time to get in to net and to dictate where to return is going to be hit.

The more I think about my last 5.0 match, the more I'm seeing a big missed opportunity. My opponent had a pretty weak forehand and often looped my serve back (her backhand was a good weapon though). I should have followed my serve in and forced passing shots from her forehand or just smashed the high returns.

Would you consider making a video of your play? People could offer much better advice if they actually see how you play and your decision making.

Yeah, I'm sure I could... I'll see about doing that this weekend or next week if that ends up being more doable.

Same with serve and returns too, i feel there is always room to improve, and any investment (and following improvement) in serve and returns is just golden in matches.

Agreed. I've recently made some strides on my serve, and while practicing with the guys, have also been working on my return of serve. Being able to return guys' serves well makes me feel invincible in that department with the ladies.

A buddy of mine, is also in transition from 4.5 to 5.0. He went to a few open tournament and got killed every time. He told me the biggest challenges were fitness and hitting consistent quality balls that are not attackable. Because he said all it takes is coughing up one ball and the point is over.

Yes, that's what I'm finding as well. I played a couple of open tournaments in the summer and found the same thing as in 5.0 — an imperative need for hitting consistent quality balls that are not attackable.

 

[TennisCJC]

My 2 cents:

1. I don't agree that S&V is a viable option. I am a guy but hit with a lot of 4.5 and a few 5.0 women. At best, they use S&V sparingly and that's in mixed doubles. I only know of one 5.0 women in the Atlanta area that plays a lot of S&V. You sound like you want to be an all court player. If you want to pursue S&V, try it in your doubles practice and use it as tactically necessary in your singles matches. It would be tactically necessary if you are playing an opponent that has gotten comfortable floating their returns back to start the point. Then S&V makes sense because you might pick off a floater and it says "hey, you cannot just block it back 3+ feet over the net".
2. You sound like an aggressive baseliner but I would encourage you to work on an all court game. This allows you to use the ground game to win through opponents errors and when you get a short ball, you want to be able to attack. I suggest at non-pro level attack should mean the ability to step into the court, up your RHS and inject a bit of pace DTL or to the weaker side. Another form of "attack" is the approach DTL or to the weaker side and follow it to net. Keep playing doubles because you'll need volleys, 1/2 volleys and overheads to win points in singles when you attack the net.

You are at a level now where being too conservative can cost you points just as much as being too aggressive can. If you get a short ball that allows you time and don't attack it, then your opponent might close you out later in the point. I think you have to be willing to accept risk - in other words, I am going to whack the short balls and/or attack the net behind them even if I miss a few or get passed a few times.

Finally, basic tactics work at any level. Hit it deep cross court until you get a short ball and then hit it DTL and attack the net pretty much works at any level. If you feel particularly creative you can alter hit DTL to hit it to their weakness.

 

[aminadream]

Yes, I think you're right @TennisCJC. I don't think S&V would ever become my primary MO, but it should be a more polished tool in my overall arsenal. And yes, I'm more of a baseliner currently but I'm working towards being able to say that I'm an all-courter. Practice practice practice.

 

[J011yroger]

Am I correct in guessing that you are very strong on your 4.5 team and usually play (first) singles but on 5.0 are not a top player and usually play second doubles? And is your singles or doubles game stronger?

J

 

[aminadream]

I always play first singles at 4.5 and am currently playing singles at 5.0 as well, since I've just joined a team whose players prefer doubles, and don't seem to care that I'm probably not the best choice to be playing singles for the progress of the team. Great for me though!

I'm a singles player at heart and mostly play doubles to improve my singles game. Though I am enjoying it more as I get to play with partners I jive with!

 

[J011yroger]

I always play first singles at 4.5 and am currently playing singles at 5.0 as well, since I've just joined a team whose players prefer doubles, and don't seem to care that I'm probably not the best choice to be playing singles for the progress of the team. Great for me though!

I'm a singles player at heart and mostly play doubles to improve my singles game. Though I am enjoying it more as I get to play with partners I jive with!

That makes life a lot easier.

Find a consistent 4.5 guy who will drill with you and who's quality of ball doesn't trouble you lace up your shoes and start hitting hundreds upon hundreds of balls. Up the middle, cross court, angle, and to targets. Use your consistency and try to get it through the roof. At the 5.0 women's level you are more likely to win with precision and consistency than blasting forehands past other girls. Once your consistency is great you can slowly ramp up the pace and spin on your ball.

As long as nobody is smoking winners off your serve most people will have a safe side to hit the ball to.

J

 

[aminadream]

Find a consistent 4.5 guy who will drill with you and who's quality of ball doesn't trouble you

Yep, I've got a good set of options here. Will do!

 

[J011yroger]

Yep, I've got a good set of options here. Will do!

That and enjoy the fight. You are going to run into some 5.5 girls who will beat up on you, tip your hat and move on. But a running, ball in the court kind of girl that's not afraid to work is going to win a lot of matches.

J

 

[Fintft]

So... yes and no. The opponents that are giving me the most problems ARE opportunistic retrievers and the problem is that they either wait for me to make a mistake or they take the opportunity to kill the ball when I'm not attacking and being more patient.

My innate personality is impatient. My nature is to attack too soon, which is why I've been working on the consistency and patience part. Which is basically the crux of my issue: I can't quite find that middle ground.

At least that's what I *think* the problem is.

After reading your first post, without even knowing that you are a girl, I was thinking of pointing out an example for you: world #1, WTA Simona Halep.
She (and she is not the only one) faces similar problems/dilemma, would it be worth it to read her and her coaches thoughts and strategies?

 

[aminadream]

That and enjoy the fight.

That won't be a problem. It's pretty much my favorite thing ever. Aside from some wrist pain and competition nerves. That latter one may end up turning into a new thread. Stay tuned.

Would it be worth it to read Halep's and her coaches thoughts and strategies?

Quite possibly. I haven't watched as much of her game as I'd like, so I'll have to look into it.

 

[aminadream]

And my next assignment (hopefully I can get to all of it before my weekend matches). Thanks @SinjinCooper for suggesting the video. Now onto the book!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

My 2 cents:

1. I don't agree that S&V is a viable option. I am a guy but hit with a lot of 4.5 and a few 5.0 women. At best, they use S&V sparingly and that's in mixed doubles. I only know of one 5.0 women in the Atlanta area that plays a lot of S&V. You sound like you want to be an all court player. If you want to pursue S&V, try it in your doubles practice and use it as tactically necessary in your singles matches. It would be tactically necessary if you are playing an opponent that has gotten comfortable floating their returns back to start the point. Then S&V makes sense because you might pick off a floater and it says "hey, you cannot just block it back 3+ feet over the net".

But you're concluding S&V is not viable simply because very few people do it. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a losing strategy.

I think it's died out at the high levels because of how good returns have become. But the key that I keep coming back to is that I'm not facing those high level players. I'm a 4.5 guy and S&V works well for me because it fits with my game style and skill set. The added benefit is, because S&V is so rare, some get flustered by me constantly coming in. Their passers have to be on for 2 out of 3 sets to beat me. High 4.5s pass the test. But the others do not.

 

[aminadream]

High 4.5s pass the test. But the others do not.

But if this thread is about moving from the 4.5 level to 5.0, wouldn’t this exactly be the point? That the serve and volley option might be better suited as an occasional surprise, and pulled out of the toolbox when needed?

 

[TennisCJC]

But you're concluding S&V is not viable simply because very few people do it. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a losing strategy.

I think it's died out at the high levels because of how good returns have become. But the key that I keep coming back to is that I'm not facing those high level players. I'm a 4.5 guy and S&V works well for me because it fits with my game style and skill set. The added benefit is, because S&V is so rare, some get flustered by me constantly coming in. Their passers have to be on for 2 out of 3 sets to beat me. High 4.5s pass the test. But the others do not.

When I started playing mostly doubles in my mid 30s, i started playing all S&V - every 1st and 2nd serve I followed in for the next 20 years. I think playing that style diminished the quality of my groundstrokes. The op sounds like baseliner or all courter. To change a style to predominately S&V takes a full commitment in my opinion. I think it would simply be too big a change and take at least a year of dedicated commitment and finally, i am not so sure that the benefit in singles is there unless the OP has or can develop a weapon of a serve. I think developing an all court game is a more realistic option. Maybe use S&V in doubles and as a change of pace in singles.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

But if this thread is about moving from the 4.5 level to 5.0, wouldn’t this exactly be the point? That the serve and volley option might be better suited as an occasional surprise, and pulled out of the toolbox when needed?

I'm going to keep S&Ving but I need to work on my serve to make it more potent.

Since S&V is relatively rare in Mens, I wonder if it's even more rare [ie almost nonexistent] in Womens? If so, you might win a bunch of points by pressuring opponents who aren't accustomed to being pressured straight out of the gate. They would eventually adjust [the good ones, anyway] but you've won a tactical victory in making them alter their strategy and taking more risk. Then maybe switch to only doing it some of the time to keep them guessing.

Then start chipping the return and coming into the net; that might really shake them up.

All I'm saying is that, given how you've described your game and your opposition, I think you at least ought to give the net attacking style a try. And not just a few points here and there; a serious test run where you don't care about match results but the experience you're gaining. [Easy for me to say because I'm not the one playing. But I learned by doing...over and over.]

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

When I started playing mostly doubles in my mid 30s, i started playing all S&V - every 1st and 2nd serve I followed in for the next 20 years. I think playing that style diminished the quality of my groundstrokes. The op sounds like baseliner or all courter. To change a style to predominately S&V takes a full commitment in my opinion. I think it would simply be too big a change and take at least a year of dedicated commitment and finally, i am not so sure that the benefit in singles is there unless the OP has or can develop a weapon of a serve. I think developing an all court game is a more realistic option. Maybe use S&V in doubles and as a change of pace in singles.

Valid points, all. I've been Sing&Ving for so long that it's hard to remember what I did as a retriever in HS. And yes, my GSs definitely are weaker than they'd otherwise be. But I have a blast attacking the net.

 

[aminadream]

I will definitely give it a serious try in practice to start with. That way I can get good at it, gain confidence, and then know that I can execute under pressure. But as @TennisCJC mentioned, I don’t imagine this ever becoming my predominant style. I think becoming an all courter is really the objective for me.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I will definitely give it a serious try in practice to start with. That way I can get good at it, gain confidence, and then know that I can execute under pressure. But as @TennisCJC mentioned, I don’t imagine this ever becoming my predominant style. I think becoming an all courter is really the objective for me.

Keep us posted; I'm always interested to hear how S&V works for other people in singles. Keep track of how many points you win simply by getting your serve in and your opponent being aware that you're coming to the net. You might be surprised.

Then again, you may get passed a ton too. C'est la vie.

 

[DNShade]

I think it's died out at the high levels because of how good returns have become. But the key that I keep coming back to is that I'm not facing those high level players.

The real reason S&V died out is that plain fact that at junior levels when kids are learning and going through the tourney thing -S&V isn't a winning game plan. Just for the reason that young kids don't have the serve to use and can't cover the net as well and will get lobbed and passed all the time. It's a long term investment kind of thing and it takes tons of repitition to start to get good at it and most kids (and their parents and therefore coaches) are all about tourney results anymore and don't want to put up with the steep learning curve it takes to get good at it.

Reminds me of the story of when Sampras as a kid was encouraged to and indeed switched from a two handed BH to the one hander and went from a decent junior to losing everything. So much so that another top junior named Andre felt sorry for how bad this kid Pete was doing in tourneys and felt sure that he wold never amount to anything.

So as a result, most players of today never learned to S&V - or volley well at all to be honest - and it trickled up to ATP/WTA etc. Of course this all happening at the same time as string changes and the slowing and homogenization of surfaces was the perfect storm to kill off S&V. So much so that you had players like Fed who were kind of S&V players in the mold of Sampras change their game to aggressive "all court" players. But the flip side is in the last few years Fed has gone back more of his original play style to change things up and give him the advantage over players he was having trouble with as he has gotten older.

But back to the real topic here. To the OP - try out some S&V and see how it works for you. Play a couple of practice matches - maybe against the guys you mentioned - and see how you do. You'll probably be passed a lot but give it some time and see how it feels and how you do. At the worst you'll have another club the bag for you to use now and then.

Like I said originally you need to figure out what your "weapon" is going to be and really work on developing that. Again having not seen you play - and you saying that you are a baseliner at heart - then you should stay with that and it sounds like you are on the right track. Just start ramping up your aggressiveness in the practice and drills. If your normal comfort rally ball is you hitting at 75 to 80% of you going full force - then try getting into the 80 - 85% level and make that your new comfort level where you don't make many unforced errors etc.

If you can get some video of you playing that you feel comfortable sharing that would help all us "forum coaches" be a bit more specific.

 

[ubercat]

Depends how accurate yr serve really is. If can reliably body serve and hit the T and the BH corner I doubt you ll get passed much.

 

[IowaGuy]

my GSs definitely are weaker than they'd otherwise be

Could probably say the same thing about Edberg, but he still won 7 majors

 

[IowaGuy]

I'm always interested to hear how S&V works for other people in singles.

I use it on about 50% of my 1st serves, more of an Edberg or Rafter-style spinnier 1st serve where I can get closer to the net (I'm in my 40's now). Mix up with occasional flat or slice serve to keep opponent off-guard.

Will increase to 100% of my 1st serves, if retriever is prone to just blocking back/slicing serves. It's amazing how many people just block/chip back a 1st serve, these can be very easy points for S&V! Whereas, if I stack back and play from the baseline, a deep block/chip return allows the opponent to start the point from a neutral position.

 

[J011yroger]

I use it on about 50% of my 1st serves, more of an Edberg or Rafter-style spinnier 1st serve where I can get closer to the net (I'm in my 40's now). Mix up with occasional flat or slice serve to keep opponent off-guard.

Will increase to 100% of my 1st serves, if retriever is prone to just blocking back/slicing serves. It's amazing how many people just block/chip back a 1st serve, these can be very easy points for S&V! Whereas, if I stack back and play from the baseline, a deep block/chip return allows the opponent to start the point from a neutral position.

I'm similar but my numbers are lower. My goal is to S&V around 25% the points. First and second serve. Will go to 100% if player is giving me some kind of dog **** shots. Ain't nobody got time to be chasing around after that crap.

J

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Could probably say the same thing about Edberg, but he still won 7 majors

So I'm just like Edberg except I have 7 fewer majors!

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I use it on about 50% of my 1st serves, more of an Edberg or Rafter-style spinnier 1st serve where I can get closer to the net (I'm in my 40's now). Mix up with occasional flat or slice serve to keep opponent off-guard.

Will increase to 100% of my 1st serves, if retriever is prone to just blocking back/slicing serves. It's amazing how many people just block/chip back a 1st serve, these can be very easy points for S&V! Whereas, if I stack back and play from the baseline, a deep block/chip return allows the opponent to start the point from a neutral position.

Strongly agree.

I was watching a set between two friends, Mr. Big [Serve] and Mr. Consistent [Return]. Mr. Big had a great serve but Mr. Consistent had a better return, which he just blocked back deep. As a result, Mr. Consistent was winning about 3/4 of the points because he was a better rallier and more mobile and fit than Mr. Big.

I told Mr. Big to S&V, even if just for a few points: if Mr. C continues to block the ball back, you will get easy volleys. That will force Mr. C to take more risk on his return, which will make your serve more effective even though the serve itself hasn't changed.

Of course, he agreed with my impeccable logic and proceeded to not S&V at all and lose the set. Change is easy when telling someone else to do it but difficult for oneself.

 

[RetroSpin]

My biggest issue is finding that sweet spot between consistency and offense at the 5.0 level.

If I'm too offensive, the errors start creeping in. If I bring the offense down a notch, I may be more consistent, but my opponent is more likely to hit a winner or force an error.

None of us can really offer meaningful advice without seeing you play matches. Take that as a given.

Your description of the tradeoff between being "too offensive" and not offensive enough doesn't seem to leave you much wiggle room. In most cases however there is a considerable amount of room between killing yourself with UEs and pushing.

The first step is to be realistic about your game. Do you have the strokes to play aggressively from the back? Of course more offensive hitting leads to more errors but it should also lead to more winners. If this isn't happening then there are two likely explanations. One, you don't have the weapons to play this way, or two, your shot selection is not up to snuff.

Watching top WTA pros, there are certain shots they always attempt to tee off on, eg weak second serves, short CC shots they can drive DTL and floaters they can take with swinging volleys. Is that your pattern? I would expect a 5.0 to punish any ball they take inside the court. Maybe not hit a winner but definitely start dictating. You don't have to swing out on every ball. Become more discriminating.

If your opponents are teeing off on your rally balls when you are in "consistent" mode, then you must not be getting enough depth, pace or bounce. This is a technique issue that can be addressed by good coaching, which I assume you already have received in spades. Otherwise, it may be that you need to adjust your expectations. You could win at 4.5 by keeping the ball in play consistently with reasonable shots, but now all your opponents can do the same thing. So you have to develop greater patience and shot tolerance. I realize that's not very helpful but If it was easy, everyone would be able to do it.

 

[aminadream]

You could win at 4.5 by keeping the ball in play consistently with reasonable shots, but now all your opponents can do the same thing. So you have to develop greater patience and shot tolerance. I realize that's not every helpful but If it was easy, everyone would be able to do it.

That's exactly it. At the 4.5 level, what I expect to be a winner ends up being a winner. At the 5.0 level, that winner comes back... and while it may come back short and begging for another winner, even that second winner comes back.

So I think you're right that I need to look at my shot selection and when I'm changing direction (as mentioned above in the Directionals), but also make sure that I'm really driving it (I play a little safer sometimes in match situations where nerves are a factor).

 

[Attila_the_gorilla]

Are you able to consistently keep your shots deep, or do you often give up short balls? Especially when on the run, people often give away short balls and invite the opponent to do some damage. Try to keep the ball deep, even when defending.

How is your variety? Are you good at drop shots, low slices etc?

 

[RetroSpin]

That's exactly it. At the 4.5 level, what I expect to be a winner ends up being a winner. At the 5.0 level, that winner comes back... and while it may come back short and begging for another winner, even that second winner comes back.

So I think you're right that I need to look at my shot selection and when I'm changing direction (as mentioned above in the Directionals), but also make sure that I'm really driving it (I play a little safer sometimes in match situations where nerves are a factor).

On the men's side the guys who win at 5.0 tend to play pretty carefully. They're not pushing but neither are they hitting out on neutral area shots. The goal is to avoid opening up the court for your opponent. For example, an aggressive play is going inside out off a CC shot, but if you do it from too deep, your opponent has an easy CC reply that will put you on the defensive.

But you're right. When you do pull the trigger, you can't baby it. Being able to execute at a high level under stress is what winners do.

 

[aminadream]

Update:

I did about 2 hours of serve and volleying today. Well, that and returning a S&V's game too.

It was a little sobering, I have to admit. I'll need to devote some time to really getting the hang of picking up those low-to-the-feet responses and making sure my racquet head is above my wrist and that my wrist is stiff. There were some technical flaws that had creeped in there without my noticing... I bet it's partially from taking so much time away from my game and maybe compensating for a couple injuries. Excuses excuses. Most of it got corrected by the end of the session but I'll still need to consciously work at it until it becomes second nature and I gain the confidence I need to use it mid-match.

I have a 4.5 match tomorrow and a 5.0 on Sunday. It's a tossup whether I'll S&V this weekend only because I feel at this point I'd be giving points away anytime I did... but the following week I think I'll be feeling better about it. But you never know. We'll see how it goes and how my opponents play.

How is your variety? Are you good at drop shots, low slices etc?

Slices are pretty darn good. Drop shots are of medium reliability and should probably be worked on a little more. Same with lobs.

Swinging volleys are my new love. I never really had them as part of my arsenal before, but was inspired this summer by a recent college grad playing the circuit who happened to be playing the same tournament I was, and watching her run up and swing at those half-court high balls instead of taking them on the rise was awesome. I've worked on that shot on both wings since then and love love love the pressure it puts on my opponent... usually for a winner. Yum.

 

[IowaGuy]

I'll need to devote some time to really getting the hang of picking up those low-to-the-feet responses and making sure my racquet head is above my wrist and that my wrist is stiff.

If you have access to a ball machine, you can set it up to drill these types of low volleys which otherwise aren't practiced very much in normal tennis warm-ups or matches.

After hitting a few thousand, you'll start to feel much more comfortable with the low volleys and half-volleys and your S&V game will improve dramatically