The Guru
Legend
Well I'm just saying if you compare the ones that one faced and the other didn't I think 2012/13/14>05/11/19. Then 2015 is just like the bonus one that was obviously not a very good Rafa but a Rafa is tougher than no Rafa.
My "bold/unpopular" opinion: Prime Federer played a better version of Rafa than Prime Djokovic did
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StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal who hit two terrible forehand errors in a row on back to back break points in the first set is a great version of Nadal? Or the one who lost to Ferrer (with 44 UE!) and Almagro during the clay season, and should have lost to Nishikori? And you mention this in the same sentence with RG 2008?... I guess you really hate Nadal.
RS
Bionic Poster
RG 08 Nadal > RG 14 Nadal yeah agree. I was going rough you could put RG 08 on its own really.
What Nadal did earlier in CC season is not rel to RG how he played at RG of course the full CC season was worse than many of his best years. If you think a few terrible shots means Nadal did not play well then that is up to you.
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Azure
G.O.A.T.
Point noted. I don't have a view on who among Djokovic or Federer is better on clay. I think results tilt towards Djoko, but who faced the better version of Rafa on clay? I still think its Fed who faced Rafa at his peak. That said, it's just what I feel at this point. I may feel otherwise another time
RaulRamirez
Legend
Yeah, it's not a burning issue for me, and the margins are often small at the "Big 3" level.Point noted. I don't have a view on who among Djokovic or Federer is better on clay. I think results tilt towards Djoko, but who faced the better version of Rafa on clay? I still think its Fed who faced Rafa at his peak. That said, it's just what I feel at this point. I may feel otherwise another time
RS
Bionic Poster
Compare 2005-2010 Nadal to 2011-16 Nadal
Or 2004-2019 Nadal vs 2006-2019 Nadal to get a fair way to compare them. 2 more years for Fed but more matches for Djo.
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JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
I would agree with this. I think Novak still had decent opposition in 2014/2015/2016, but it was clear that Rafa was stuck in a rut on clay, and Federer was past his prime. I still think 2015 Federer was the best Fed from 2013-2016, and on fast courts he was still a beast.
Jaitock1991
Hall of Fame
I actually think the very thing that might have been the primary factor in this significant "match up advantage" that Rafa enjoyed over Roger during the 00s is what Rafa has been increasingly lacking in the 10s onward; his ridiculous ability to basically run down EVERYTHING Roger threw at him while at the same time using his spin to create a very difficult environment for Roger to execute his game as efficiently as he would against pretty much any other opponent. He still has the heavy groundstrokes to do it(all though the numbers I've seen suggest that even this has declined a fair bit), but his speed and stamina around the court has definitely declined quite a bit over the last 10 years. Perfectly understandable of course (we should be grateful to even be able to still see the dude playing after all he's been through), but I do believe that because of this peak Federer would fare a lot better vs 10s Nadal on every surface than he did against 00s Nadal, including clay. Especially on hard court.
But hey, just another unprovable opinion..
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
Which one of 2005-2008,2010,and 2017 would you rank 2012 over? 2006 version beat peak Fed 3 times, and didn't lose a match. 2005 didn't lose a match either. 2007 lost a match to a zoning Federer and then beat him again in the FO. 2008 was just 2008. Enough said. 2010 didn't lose a match. 2017 was ombeliebable except for the loss to Theim.
Nadal's loss in R2 of Madrid to Verdasco bumps it down for me. Sure, 2008dal lost to Ferrero, but he had to play through blisters. He would have likely went undefeated then too. You could possibly rank it over 2017, but the 2017 FO was crazy good from him. Here is my ranking:
1. 2006
2. 2005
3. 2010
4. 2008
5. 2007/2012
6. 2017
Funny to think that a season where Nadal didn't lose more than 4 games in a set at the FO is 6th, but hey, that's Nadal on clay.
JaoSousa
Hall of Fame
What a classic Lew response when somebody points out the fact that his statistics are incorrect.
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
My stats were perfectly correct.What a classic Lew response when somebody points out the fact that his statistics are incorrect.
RS
Bionic Poster
It was in response to your comment the premise of the thread is not who played Rafa better of course Nole did.
Start da Game
Hall of Fame
i would say no........both had to deal with best versions of rafa........don't forget 2011, 2012 and 2013........rafa went downhill only after 2014 aus open........not before that, there are no excuses for his losses before that year except at slams which he missed/lost due to injuries........
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is just one year younger than Nadal and he has played him throughout his career - the only difference is that Nadal was able to get to an ATG level at a very young age while Djokovic took longer to develop and needed to get rid of his sensitivity to gluten with a new diet in late 2010 before he could do so.
Since 2011, Djokovic has dominated the rivalry - Nadal was 16-7 against Djokovic before 2011 and he is 10-22 since. You could argue that Nadal was better or Djokovic was worse early in their careers - in reality, it was likely a combination of both. Nadal has won 13 out of his 19 GS titles in the last decade while Djokovic has won 16 Slams in the 2010s. So, I don’t think Nadal was that much weaker in the last decade against everyone else - Djokovic just became the best player in the world in the last decade with Nadal not far behind.
On a side note, I do believe that if Novak had discovered his sensitivity to gluten and resulting physical/respiratory issues early in his career when he got on tour, there would be no debate today about who is the GOAT or the slam title chase as he would have likely taken 4 or 5 more Grand Slams away from Federer and Nadal before 2011. But it’s a subjective opinion and we will never know - but, if you watch his offensive firepower from 2007-2010, he certainly had the game to win more Slams, but not the endurance.
Since 2011, Djokovic has dominated the rivalry - Nadal was 16-7 against Djokovic before 2011 and he is 10-22 since. You could argue that Nadal was better or Djokovic was worse early in their careers - in reality, it was likely a combination of both. Nadal has won 13 out of his 19 GS titles in the last decade while Djokovic has won 16 Slams in the 2010s. So, I don’t think Nadal was that much weaker in the last decade against everyone else - Djokovic just became the best player in the world in the last decade with Nadal not far behind.
On a side note, I do believe that if Novak had discovered his sensitivity to gluten and resulting physical/respiratory issues early in his career when he got on tour, there would be no debate today about who is the GOAT or the slam title chase as he would have likely taken 4 or 5 more Grand Slams away from Federer and Nadal before 2011. But it’s a subjective opinion and we will never know - but, if you watch his offensive firepower from 2007-2010, he certainly had the game to win more Slams, but not the endurance.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Peak Nadal was 2006-2010, not 2011.
Your contention that "Federer lost repeatedly to peak Nadal" is undeniably true, but it's also true that Novak lost repeatedly to peak Nadal.
Nadal's record against Fed from 2005-2010 was 14-8
Nadal's record against Novak from 2006-2010 was 16-7
Not much difference.
RelentlessAttack
Hall of Fame
No doubt in my mind that prime Federer played the better Nadal overall than prime Djokovic. 2011&13 were still high level years from Nadal but he was way better in 2010 than 11 on serve and DTL FH and 13 he basically was great for half a season and either absent or underwhelming for the other half. Meanwhile from 2014-20 Nadal has aside from rare occasions been a shadow of himself when it comes to competing against top competition and Djokovic, and even post-prime Federer have been able to feast on that.
Young Nadal was vulnerable to the field on HC in the early years but in 08-09 could hang with the best competition on that surface too. Other than that he was better on clay and better on grass in Federer’s prime.
Young Nadal was vulnerable to the field on HC in the early years but in 08-09 could hang with the best competition on that surface too. Other than that he was better on clay and better on grass in Federer’s prime.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Personally, I don't see how you bunch 06 in with peak and not 11. 06 at majors was W F QF, 11 was W F F QF, so he just made another HC slam final. In addition, he made 5 Masters finals and only lost early/withdrew from 3 Masters in 2011. In 2006 that was only 2 Masters finals and he lost early/withdrew from 4.
Pre-Canada 2011, Nadal only failed to make the finals of the AO. He had only lost in the year to Djokovic and Ferrer (once). He then had a not-great 2nd HC stretch, but I don't see how his first-half of 2011 performance was any less than stellar. His win rate in the 2 years was comparable, but Nadal was simply less absent in 11, so I don't see how this was not peak Nadal when 06 was.
Nadal won 3 majors in '10. Without Djokovic, he most likely would've won another 3 in '11, because Federer was in a deep funk against Nadal at the time. A funk which he would not exit until 2015!
Djokovic stopped peak Nadal in his tracks, beating him 7 times in a row, all in finals (3 majors) in '11-12. Federer, for all his talents, never could come to terms with peak Nadal!
Essentially in all of 2011, Nadal only lost in finals to Djokovic, so there was absolutely no evidence that his level had dropped from 2010!
Djokovic stopped peak Nadal in his tracks, beating him 7 times in a row, all in finals (3 majors) in '11-12. Federer, for all his talents, never could come to terms with peak Nadal!
Essentially in all of 2011, Nadal only lost in finals to Djokovic, so there was absolutely no evidence that his level had dropped from 2010!
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D
Deleted member 771911
Guest
Agreed. I think it's a common opinion, though. Very popular with me!
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Washed up Rafa or no Rafa really makes no difference.
After 2010 season, the only one where Nadal won 3 majors, it looked all the world like he was going to reign over tennis for a long, long time. It was Djokovic who put a quick end to that reign. If not, who knows how long that reign would've lasted, and how far ahead Nadal would be in the Slams race by now.
And now some Fedfans are trying to rewrite history, by saying Djokovic didn't face peak Nadal. Djokovic single-handedly ended Nadal's brief reign; nobody else besides Djokovic beat Nadal during that stretch!
And now some Fedfans are trying to rewrite history, by saying Djokovic didn't face peak Nadal. Djokovic single-handedly ended Nadal's brief reign; nobody else besides Djokovic beat Nadal during that stretch!
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clout
Hall of Fame
2011-2019 is a much greater span than 2005-2009
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
8/9 slams won from 2010 RG to 2012 RG if not for Djokovic?
Rago
Hall of Fame
Some of these Fed fans are an absolute joke. Nadal was decimating the entire field except Djokovic on every surface in 2011. 2011 Nadal > 2006/07 Nadal; I don't know how anyone can even argue against this.
Without Djokovic in 2011, Nadal does what Federer did in 2006.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
what's next, 2019 slamdal > 2008 slamdal 'cause 2019dal hypothetically wins cygs without fedovic? You're just adding to the buffoonery, get better please.
Rago
Hall of Fame
What an idiotic response and accusation; I don't even...
RS
Bionic Poster
Existing AO 12/Wim 12 Murray to get a 5th set vs AO 2004/05/07 Federer and to get to a 5th with Djokdal at Wim?
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
No, you. Keep telling us 2011 Nadal > 2007 Nadal on the basis of one event - the USO - while ignoring everything else. I'm sure you're capable of much better analysis.
Rago
Hall of Fame
So an additional Slam final (including beating a couple of US Open finalists on the way instead of a 4R exit to one of his Spanish pigeons) and getting to 7 consecutive finals (including 5 Masters finals) at the age of 25 (prime time for a tennis player) is somehow a negative? Okay then.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
2007 Nadal was better in IW, MC, Rome, RG, Wimbledon, Canada, Paris and the YEC. 2011 Nadal was better in Miami and the USO; also Cincinnati but irrelevant since he didn't do well either. Hamburg 07 vs Madrid 11 unclear, AO 07 vs 11 and Madrid 07 vs Shanghai 11 unclear/irrelevant.
Rago
Hall of Fame
I'd give AO'11 to Nadal (even though he lost to his pigeon Ferrer) and Wimbledon is questionable (lost fewer sets on road to final and served better) in my opinion.
None of the points you mention about the tourneys on clay matter since Federer wouldn't win any of them against 2011 Nadal either as far as I'm concerned. And yes, USO should be a deal breaker since it's a freaking slam and Nadal wasn't a geriatric in 2011 (again 25 years of age is very much prime).
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Too many "I"s here, enamoured with your own opinion I see,
2007 Nadal > 2011 Nadal, just defies belief. Tennis, especially now, is a grown men's game. Hard to believe any player at 21 is better than himself at 25! Name me another player that's like that!
Oh, Becker, but he retired 4 decades ago! Judging from a recent photo of him, he's gone downhill ever since 17!
Oh, Becker, but he retired 4 decades ago! Judging from a recent photo of him, he's gone downhill ever since 17!
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Rago
Hall of Fame
Got nothing else to say? We're done here; this discussion is going nowhere.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Believing in peak Federer at 33+ isn't hard though, innit
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
It never was. We're just regurgitating opinionated statements. That ain't science.
Never said Federer was peak at 33, always maintain he was near peak then! Djokovic's near peak now at 33! Nadal had the biggest dropoff between 25 and 33, among B3.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
2011 Nadal was only better on HC than 2007 Nadal. 2007 Nadal was better on clay and grass.
These absolute joke Fed fans are actually not wrong.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Well, in 2007 he didn't reach 7 straight finals because he met Djokovic in the QF in Miami instead of the final.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Why wouldn't peak Fed win in Madrid vs 2011 Nadal? That's like the only masters event on clay where he could win.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
2007 had a deeper field and still Nadal reached the final in 7 top tournaments compared to 8 in 2011, such a baby. Add also 4 instances of losing elimination matches to eventual winners before the final (deep field, yo) compared to none in 2011.
To say 2007 Nadal was better than 2011 Nadal, is an absolute joke all right! One, how do you know, because he won everything both years. Two, it didn't matter!
2007 flattered Nadal, because he had only one challenger, who for some reason couldn't handle an up-and-coming teenager!
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In the HC tournaments, 2011 Nadal was only better in Miami and the USO. 2007 Nadal was better at IW, Canada, Madrid, Paris and the YEC. And about even at the AO, although Gonzo > Ferrer.
Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
Djokovic deffo challenged him as well that year. They played like seven matches.
