My current serve at 72 (and E2HBH)

[ext2hander]

Its been 3 years since I dared showed my serve on this hyper-critical forum. No matter, here's my improved serve from 3 days ago -- in a typical game situation among friends, 60-64 -- opponents stronger and generally smarter players, which made the game challenging. So I'm the elder statesman. Small guy, 135@5-4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1xKgFs3i9Q

Still achieve only partial leading on edge, with pronation, but rhythm and balance are definitely improved. The second serve is hit with like rhythm and pace, no fear to strike the ball to assure topspin/slice. Average speed tops out at 70 mph from video samples. Maybe I'll get the full leading-on-edge at 75! and 75 mph.

My infamous "Extended Two-Hand Backhand" (E2HBH) is shown in these games, hit quite flat and low with topspin imparted to a large degree by rising at the hips during follow through, and some from the swing path. Contrary to most two-handers, I prefer to hit with more pace, and reduce time for the opponents.

At 2:20 the E2HBH was used on third try to hit winner from ad-sideline backcourt to ad-short court, as opponent elected to outlast at baseline just having fun (being the better player).

At 4:00 the E2HBH is used to smack the volley on the fly in the back court. With other players, I mostly use the 1HBH, except when the two-hander is desired for putaways. As other posters remarked in 2015, "why not use a LH FH?" (since its 98% LH dominant): Very true. I do use the lefty forehand often for shots to my extreme left, and in fore court for volley or off the bounce.

The extended effective racquet length is helpful for this unique backhand.

Continuing to improve in the 70's has definitely been a challenge. At some point, I will peak. We all do eventually. Still racquet of choice: Head Prestige Tour MidPlus, Gamma Live Wire XP @ 60#.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Your partner should have switched sides at 5:20. The lob went over his head. You covered it for him. He didn't budge! And your opponents hit to the empty side. He needs to learn that you're a team. That he shouldn't only care about "his" side.

 

[travlerajm]

I’m only 45, but my serve has already slowed down to slower than yours. Still have a few years to go until I peak though.

 

[Keendog]

I think you're doing well to be playing on hard court at that age. Got some way to go myself but I'd be happy to not be pissing myself at that 75 let alone caring about another 5mph on my serve!

 

[Curious]

72! Is that in normal 12 month years?!

 

[ext2hander]

Your partner should have switched sides at 5:20. The lob went over his head. You covered it for him. He didn't budge! And your opponents hit to the empty side. He needs to learn that you're a team. That he shouldn't only care about "his" side.

Thanks for watching to 5:15! I didn't point out that play. I yelled to "Switch!" while running down the lob -- he can't hear well (true), but no need for sound to react to developing play. Perhaps not noticed, but I ran down the lob and returned with a LEFT hand volley lob! Try that at any age, but I've worked on my LH FH ground strokes lately, now better than my RH FH, no hesitation to hit. I find its easier to hit ALL deep lobs beyond Ad baseline with my LH lob in return.

Also, I liked Curious comment "My ambition and perfectionism make up for my lack of talent." That's me.

 

[Steady Eddy]

Thanks for watching to 5:15! I didn't point out that play. I yelled to "Switch!" while running down the lob -- he can't hear well (true), but no need for sound to react to developing play. Perhaps not noticed, but I ran down the lob and returned with a LEFT hand volley lob! Try that at any age, but I've worked on my LH FH ground strokes lately, now better than my RH FH, no hesitation to hit. I find its easier to hit ALL deep lobs beyond Ad baseline with my LH lob in return.

Also, I liked Curious comment "My ambition and perfectionism make up for my lack of talent." That's me.

After that, your partner gets lobbed again. He swings and whiffs, you go after it, but this time don't get it back. I'm wondering, maybe you didn't get it back because you could tell he's not going to cover the right side of the court? Rattled your concentration a bit.

 

[Shroud]

I’m only 45, but my serve has already slowed down to slower than yours. Still have a few years to go until I peak though.

My two cents is that what makes a great serving racquet is different from what makes a solid baseline racquet. You have a great serve but imho racquet is holding you back. At least to seemed to for me. Now at a much lighter weight my serve is much better.

 

[ext2hander]

My two cents is that what makes a great serving racquet is different from what makes a solid baseline racquet. You have a great serve but imho racquet is holding you back. At least to seemed to for me. Now at a much lighter weight my serve is much better.

In some respects you are correct. My serve has greater punch with the Prince NXG Tour MP and slightly heavier Head i.Prestige Tour MP. These are strung per spec with slightly lower tension for flex rating of 62-63, vs the Prestige Tour's 56-58, which is strung at 60 lbs. But lately I've been nursing my elbow, so play with the softest of the set.

I tried several Babolat's (recent Pure Drive, Pure Control, 2014 Drive Tour MP's), but didn't observe any boost for strokes or for serves. Perhaps, its their stiffer flex in high 60's and lighter weight? I can serve my relatively heavy racquets and strike the ball with good speed at contact. I feel the added head mass has greater plow-through on serve, with very loose grip and minimal muscular effort. A lot of guys grip tightly and muscle the ball, for having taken less advantage of body rotations and movements. With good hip and shoulder motion and rotations, the racquet is projected upward to the strike point -- very little muscular effort required. The only added force that I apply is the pronation, which I've learned forearm rotation works best (larger muscle than wrist muscle!). WIth the right timing and toss, the ball sings.

 

[ext2hander]

Here's my mechanical engineer's view on the issue of mass. The tennis ball weights ~2 oz. A typical 11 oz racquet has ~5 oz in the hoop. This gives mass ratio of 5/2 = 2.5

Now a racquet weighing 12 oz could have 5.5 oz in the hoop. This gives a mass ratio of 5.5/2 = 2.75

Based on mass and momentum physics, the higher weight can crush the ball 10% harder for increased ball velocity. (of course, simply comparing the relative mass of the two racquets would give the same answer). This assumes one has the arm strength to handle the heavier racquet. Lighter racquets generally imply a stiffer design -- not so good for tennis elbow etc. With less arm strength, a lighter racquet is better to achieve high racquet speed at impact. I may be small, but my arm strength is atypical for height, so racquets with head tape and thus weighted to 12.25 oz seems about right. The i.Prestige comes in a little heavier at 12.5 oz, and depending on my mood seems slightly heavy. The NXG's are also about 12.25 oz.

 

[Shroud]

Here's my mechanical engineer's view on the issue of mass. The tennis ball weights ~2 oz. A typical 11 oz racquet has ~5 oz in the hoop. This gives mass ratio of 5/2 = 2.5

Now a racquet weighing 12 oz could have 5.5 oz in the hoop. This gives a mass ratio of 5.5/2 = 2.75

Based on mass and momentum physics, the higher weight can crush the ball 10% harder for increased ball velocity. (of course, simply comparing the relative mass of the two racquets would give the same answer). This assumes one has the arm strength to handle the heavier racquet. Lighter racquets generally imply a stiffer design -- not so good for tennis elbow etc. With less arm strength, a lighter racquet is better to achieve high racquet speed at impact. I may be small, but my arm strength is atypical for height, so racquets with head tape and thus weighted to 12.25 oz seems about right. The i.Prestige comes in a little heavier at 12.5 oz, and depending on my mood seems slightly heavy. The NXG's are also about 12.25 oz.

Six months ago i would have agreed with this 100% i was using 14.8oz racquets and simply could not serve with lighter racquets.

But now i have been playing with a 12oz racquet and reworked my serve and now i think the lighter racquet is better for serves. I do miss the weight but am serving bigger and better now

Heavy racquets seem better for the elbow but tougher on the shoulder.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Still achieve only partial leading on edge, with pronation, but rhythm and balance are definitely improved. The second serve is hit with like rhythm and pace, no fear to strike the ball to assure topspin/slice. Average speed tops out at 70 mph from video samples. Maybe I'll get the full leading-on-edge at 75! and 75 mph.

It will be impossible to approach contact edge on if you open up into Waiter's Tray.

At trophy, the racquet should be vertical or closed slightly; yours is open. I assume you are using Conti grip?

Once you open up into WT, it will be practically impossible to approach edge on like high level servers. At the very least, you want to reach "Big L" position (butt cap pointed to net) with edge on racquet. You are opening up even before "Big L".

Or maybe we need to re-evaluate what is feasible for the rec player if you are still struggling to eliminate WT at age 72.

Perhaps this habit is too difficult to break. Maybe @Chas Tennis can help you fix this WT error.

Also, at trophy position, you should be on the balls of the feet, not flat footed. This applies even if one does not intend to lift off the ground on the serve.

@SystemicAnomaly had advised me on this earlier wrt to the flat feet at trophy.

 

[ext2hander]

Six months ago i would have agreed with this 100% i was using 14.8oz racquets and simply could not serve with lighter racquets.

But now i have been playing with a 12oz racquet and reworked my serve and now i think the lighter racquet is better for serves. I do miss the weight but am serving bigger and better now

Heavy racquets seem better for the elbow but tougher on the shoulder.

I agree, up to a point a heavier racquet is preferable for strong serves, with less load on the arm, and more on the strings. The secret is having good body rotations and striking the ball with loose grip.

12.25 oz seems optimal lately for my game. I had the i.Prestige MP weighted with protection tape and overwrap to 12.7-12.8 oz, but its slightly heavy. My i.Prestige's are now 12.4 oz with less head protection tape, and no overwrap -- perhaps the upper limit for my play. But 11-11.25 oz Babolats did not produce stronger ground stokes or serves, in play testing friends racquets, and seemed to induce more shock on elbow. Whereas, everyone thinks my racquets are rather heavy!

The exception is one guy who feels 14 oz pro-weighted racquets are better, which is simply way too heavy for me. Does he smoke everyone with those racquets? doubtful.

 

[ext2hander]

It will be impossible to approach contact edge on if you open up into Waiter's Tray.
You need to get rid of the Waiter's Tray. I have the same problem myself.

At trophy, the racquet should be vertical or closed slightly; yours is open. I assume you are using Conti grip?

Once you open up into WT, it will be practically impossible to approach edge on like high level servers. At the very least, you want to reach "Big L" position (butt cap pointed to net) with edge on racquet. You are opening up even before "Big L".

Or maybe we need to re-evaluate what is feasible for the rec player if you are still struggling to eliminate WT at age 72.

Perhaps this habit is too difficult to break. Maybe @Chas Tennis can help you fix this WT error.

Yep, I have run slow-motion to see the lack of leading on edge. Perhaps its partially on edge, with some pronation left to right. Half the players have full WT, the racquet face flat to intended target throughout the stroke, and shoulders hardly turned. At least I'm starting with shoulders turns to show back side of left shoulder to opponent. I also noticed via replay that the more I toss the ball to the left, the better the serve -- with increased swing left-to-right at contact to drive the topspin. Thanks for your comments, I'm well aware of the WT tendency, as I have videoed other friends who are 100% leading on edge. Try trying. Using a conti-grip. This slow-motion example is tossed too far to the right. Tossing to the left requires bending and leaning away from the ball, looking upwards, and striking more left-to-right.

 

[ext2hander]

No WT here. Freeze-frame of a friend's serve leading on edge.
Another friend does the same. So nice, but the resultant serve
is much slower, going for the kicker instead. I like the speed and
spin I'm achieving, with potential to increase power and spin further.

 

[Raul_SJ]

No WT here. Freeze-frame of a friend's serve leading on edge.
Another friend does the same. So nice, but the resultant serve
is much slower, going for the kicker instead. I like the speed and
spin I'm achieving, with potential to increase power and spin further.

Yes, just as long as you are aware that opening up too early actually sacrifices power and spin. Power is created by leading edge-on and then opening up at the last instant.

 

[Kevo]

Yep, I have run slow-motion to see the lack of leading on edge. Perhaps its partially on edge, with some pronation left to right.

Usually breaking the waiter's tray habit can be done pretty quickly if you are able to fix the grip and change the back swing. Most people have such a developed muscle memory for the waiter's tray that it's much easier to fix by changing the back swing. The grip change can be more difficult for some as they don't fully take the time to pause and check the grip each and every time before they toss. Then some will check it and change it automatically as they toss the ball.

My advice would be to first make sure you are using a straight continental grip. Just pretend the leading edge you will swing towards the ball at the 3 o'clock position on the frame is the business end of a hammer. Grip the racquet like you are about to hammer nails with that leading edge. Now don't lose that grip. Be especially aware of any unconscious tendency to let that grip slip back around towards a forehand grip.

For the backswing, try starting with the racquet leading edge facing up to the sky and the top of the frame pointed towards the back fence. Swing up and rotate your arm from that position. Any drop in the racquet from there should be done with idea that you plan to hammer nails up into the clouds.

If you have trouble keeping your grip or turning your racquet in the backswing into waiter's tray, you can have a willing buddy stand behind you and make an annoying game show buzzer sound as soon as the see the grip slide or the strings start to turn up. I've found this a pretty effective way to help people become aware of the place in their motion where they start to go wrong.

I find that once a player can consciously feel the change they are trying to correct they will actually be able to correct it on their own with practice. Much of the battle is simply training them to be aware of it.

 

[ext2hander]

My forefinger knuckle in on the angled flat, conti-grip I assume. I need to practice half swings. START with the racquet behind the back with correct grip, and with racquet fully leading on edge like my friend. Then toss consistently and practice striking the ball with last sec pronation. Do that a hundred times each day.

I don't rush my serve. Rather, I totally relax my mind, body, and grip before starting the initial body rotation and ball toss -- with body rotations leading the ball toss, and later body rotations leading the racquet thrust upward. So many plays either lead with the racquet, or body and racquets movements at same time, usually with a totally flat WT and shoulders aligned and staring directly at the target.

I resolved the dilemma of showing the backside of leading shoulder to opponent. I'm fully comfortable with a more sideways stance, and adding a tiny bit more shoulder rotation away from ball -- I'm the only one in our park group with that sideways stance. Mini-McEnroe technique for old guys.

But I'm actually pleased that I'm still quite flexible in movements for serve, and backhands (1HBH, E2HBH, LH FH), but RH FH needs more focus to hit naturally without thought. Staying with the heavier flexible racquets (i.e. no power if slow racquet head speed) forced me to lengthen my ground strokes and finish, and loosen up the serve for power, to avoid abrupt or jerky and flat WT serves. Not so many older guys do that, relying on stiff lightweight powerful racquets that can limit ones strokes (hit too hard, and sails off the court).

Thanks for all the tips on my game. Maybe in 3 years I'll show what I've done at 75. I hope.

 

[user92626]

Usually breaking the waiter's tray habit can be done pretty quickly if you are able to fix the grip and change the back swing. Most people have such a developed muscle memory for the waiter's tray that it's much easier to fix by changing the back swing. The grip change can be more difficult for some as they don't fully take the time to pause and check the grip each and every time before they toss. Then some will check it and change it automatically as they toss the ball.

My advice would be to first make sure you are using a straight continental grip. Just pretend the leading edge you will swing towards the ball at the 3 o'clock position on the frame is the business end of a hammer. Grip the racquet like you are about to hammer nails with that leading edge. Now don't lose that grip. Be especially aware of any unconscious tendency to let that grip slip back around towards a forehand grip.

For the backswing, try starting with the racquet leading edge facing up to the sky and the top of the frame pointed towards the back fence. Swing up and rotate your arm from that position. Any drop in the racquet from there should be done with idea that you plan to hammer nails up into the clouds.

If you have trouble keeping your grip or turning your racquet in the backswing into waiter's tray, you can have a willing buddy stand behind you and make an annoying game show buzzer sound as soon as the see the grip slide or the strings start to turn up. I've found this a pretty effective way to help people become aware of the place in their motion where they start to go wrong.

I find that once a player can consciously feel the change they are trying to correct they will actually be able to correct it on their own with practice. Much of the battle is simply training them to be aware of it.

From a quick read you sound about right but that's a lot of words to describe an action, not sure if it's an effective way ... why can't the OP just watch a short instructional video addressing his very problem?

Watch this coach breaking down the serve into simple stages. You can also slow down the clip at his swings. It doesn't get easier than this.

 

[weelie]

No WT here. Freeze-frame of a friend's serve leading on edge.
Another friend does the same. So nice, but the resultant serve
is much slower, going for the kicker instead. I like the speed and
spin I'm achieving, with potential to increase power and spin further.

To me, the WT is separate technique. It is about arming the ball, with a lower toss, as hand should not be extended straight to contact, or you lose power. There is no spin, no cartwheel action. All in all, you hit from a lower position, you use only the hand, you don't get top spin... so the max speed is lower. Plus more likely to injure your shoulder, as shoulders stay even through the hit. You did say you have strong hands, and the serve works for you, so that's all good. I don't see the improvement potential in the serve, but that does not mean it would not work for you. If I was 72, you'd whoop my ass on court for sure.

 

[Chas Tennis]

......... Then toss consistently and practice striking the ball with last sec pronation. ........
.........................

The "last sec pronation" comment probably means that you have a misconception about how a racket moves on a high level serve. This issue has been discussed many times as a show stopping misconception.

With a Waiter's Tray serve pronating at the 'last second' before ball impact should turn the racket face too much to the side depending on the 'pronation' angle. Your racket looks square to the ball from early in your forward stroke. Of course, most of the service motion occurs literally at the last second so specifying time as "the last second" is not communicating much. Milliseconds are the perfect timing unit for tennis strokes. From the Big L racket position to impact for a high level serve is about 25 milliseconds. See red arrows in post #16, Big L to impact. Edge on at Big L and face on at Big L mostly from internal shoulder rotation (ISR) during the last 25 milliseconds. You do not appear to have racket face rotation with your WT technique, that is expected with a WT. Pronation and ISR after impact do not matter for the serve.

The Waiter Tray serving technique is rarely discussed with the purpose of improving its performance. One exception is Pat Dougherty's video "Hammer That Serve". He does not use the term Waiter's Tray but that is the Hammer that Serve technique. He also mentions the Advanced Serve. Listen carefully to which he is talking about.

 

[Chas Tennis]

...........Plus more likely to injure your shoulder, as shoulders stay even through the hit. ..........

There is advice about the serve given especially by Todd Ellenbecker. I can see in videos that most professional servers are using the shoulder orientation that he describes and recommends, the shoulders are tilted and the upper arm has a limited up angle to the shoulder joint, less impingement risk from internal shoulder rotation. From his video, "Rotator Cuff Injury" I would say that what he says applies to a high level serving technique using internal shoulder rotation.

I don't know what applies to the Waiter's Tray technique. I doubt that the Ellenbecker video applies but I don't know. WT is much more widely used than the high level technique and I have not noticed many shoulder injuries from it.

Are there any references on injuries with the WT, especially those studying upper arm to shoulder joint orientation?

 

[Raul_SJ]

If you have trouble keeping your grip or turning your racquet in the backswing into waiter's tray, you can have a willing buddy stand behind you and make an annoying game show buzzer sound as soon as the see the grip slide or the strings start to turn up. I've found this a pretty effective way to help people become aware of the place in their motion where they start to go wrong.

I find that once a player can consciously feel the change they are trying to correct they will actually be able to correct it on their own with practice. Much of the battle is simply training them to be aware of it.

The "last sec pronation" comment probably means that you have a misconception about how a racket moves on a high level serve. This issue has been discussed many times as a show stopping misconception.

With a Waiter's Tray serve pronating at the 'last second' before ball impact should turn the racket face too much to the side depending on the 'pronation' angle. Your racket looks square to the ball from early in your forward stroke.

Don't think OP is interested in optimizing WT technique. He says he is using Conti grip and wants to approach edge on like high level.He wants to avoid flipping into WT on the back swing. He is flipping open at trophy position. Similar to this player. Once you flip open it is impossible to approach edge on from Big L, as face is already open far before Big L.

 

[weelie]

WT is much more widely used than the high level technique and I have not noticed many shoulder injuries from it.

Yes, that's a good point. With WT, the shoulder movement is probably more limited and thus WT is likely less prone to injury.

(I have gotten a shoulder pain once from tennis, and I think it was due lack of shoulder tilt, so that's what I was basing my comment on. This was in June, and I could still sometimes feel it sting beginning of August, but never on court, and now that I've started again playing more, I am not feeling it anymore)

in general, I feel that problem with learning to serve is feeling of needing to control the movement. I assume as a child it is easier to just "throw the racket", where as an adult, there is a tendency to guide the racket, to make it in the box, which limits the racket drop and pronation.

I am no expert on this, of course. Probably should post a video thread of my serve as it is, to let everybody slam it.

 

[Kevo]

From a quick read you sound about right but that's a lot of words to describe an action, not sure if it's an effective way ... why can't the OP just watch a short instructional video addressing his very problem?

Watch this coach breaking down the serve into simple stages. You can also slow down the clip at his swings. It doesn't get easier than this.

He could watch a video and I presume he's done that. From what I see it doesn't look like he's actually hitting with a continental grip. It's looks like his grip is shifted towards the forehand side.

I didn't really care for that serve faster video. I don't like instructing people to have a "crinkle" in the wrist. I don't see any technical need for that, it disappears during the service motion for people with high level serves. I like to keep things as simple as possible. Less room for error. I also prefer people to build up from a slow speed and work their motion faster while maintaining control. Some people may benefit from that video, just not what I would recommend.

Also, watching videos is good, but unless you are also taking video of yourself or you have someone watching you, it's very hard to actually know you are training the right way. Almost universally, what I see with students is a disconnect between what I show them and what they do. I literally spend most of my time, especially with serves, correcting mistakes in their form that they have no idea that they are doing. This starts from the toss even. Show 8 people a simple method of tossing with all the details and you will probably get 4-8 different kinds of toss with maybe 1 person doing pretty much what you demonstrated. It's just a fact of life that communicating physical movement to another person is very challenging.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Don't think OP is interested in optimizing WT technique. He says he is using Conti grip and wants to approach edge on like high level.He wants to avoid flipping into WT on the back swing. He is flipping open at trophy position. Similar to this player. Once you flip open it is impossible to approach edge on from Big L, as face is already open far before Big L.

You use the criterior for Waiter's Tray as racket face 'open' in Trophy Position. But I have only seen other references that use the Big L position and stings toward the sky as a reference position and checkpoint. Have you seen other creditable references that indicate that it is "impossible" to recover to a high level serve? I tend to agree but I don't want to think about all the possibilities prior to Big L so I use the time of the Big L position. I can then show the Big L webpage from Hi Tech Tennis. Then what is being said has another reference presented in addition to the poster's belief, added credibility.

Also, saying that the OP wants to "approach edge on" is not the best wording in my opinion as there are players that have that specific flaw. If you look at the picture in your earlier post the bottom red arrow shows edge on to the ball at Big L for an instant, a few milliseconds. Edge on to ball is a checkpoint that lasts an instant, there is no 'approaching edge on'. (Maybe some slice serve techniques get close, to be determined in videos.) It is a show stopping common misconception that the racket approaches edge on and later 'pronates' before impact. The whole arm does ISR, plus a little pronation, to rotate the wrist and racket face. All is best seen in clear high speed videos and not described in ultra-simplified words.

The words are useful to identify specific things seen in high speed videos, but not as descriptions and especially not as instructions. This is one reason that the forum discussions have progressed so slowly - relying on words and not high speed videos prolongs the misconceptions. People are actually using the words as instructions! (I've done that many times.)

But it is impossible that the OP has been studying his serve using high speed videos for his serving technique. He would have seen WT 3 years ago in one second.
"Its been 3 years since I dared showed my serve on this hyper-critical forum....."

This is the Tennis Serve Nuthouse.

 

[Raul_SJ]

You use the criterior for Waiter's Tray as racket face 'open' in Trophy Position. But I have only seen other references that use the Big L position and stings toward the sky as a reference position and checkpoint. Have you seen other creditable references that indicate that it is "impossible" to recover to a high level serve? I tend to agree but I don't want to think about all the possibilities prior to Big L so I use the time of the Big L position. I can then show the Big L webpage from Hi Tech Tennis. Then what is being said has another reference presented in addition to the poster's belief, added credibility.

Also, saying that the OP wants to "approach edge on" is not the best wording in my opinion as there are players that have that specific flaw. If you look at the picture in your earlier post the bottom red arrow shows edge on to the ball at Big L for an instant, a few milliseconds.

I will rephrase it this way:

OP needs to get to the bottom red arrow Big L position edge-on. IMO, that position will be very difficult to achieve if he opens up at trophy. Not aware of any studies on it but I do not recall ever seeing anyone achieving the bottom red arrow edge-on when opening up at trophy; it is the point of no return, IMO.

The question then becomes what is the easiest way to stay edge-on at trophy? OP has been playing many years but still has not fixed this, even though he says he is aware of it and desires a high level motion.

We have all seen the video. Now, what is the next step to fix the WT error?

I suspect that very often one does not realize he is opening up at trophy. Hence a previous poster suggested having someone stand behind him and observing that he does not open up. That suggestion makes sense.

OP suggested starting from the racquet drop position. I'm not sure how helpful that would be since the WT is occurring prior to racquet drop; at trophy. But starting from the drop position might give him a feeling of going from racquet drop and reaching Big L edge on.

The other issue is how to achieve Big L with an approximately straight arm. OP is very bent.

 

[Chas Tennis]

.............

The question then becomes what is the easiest way to stay edge-on at trophy? ............

.

What does "edge-on at Trophy" Position mean? What is "edge-on" to what?

The defined position is 'edge on to the ball' at the Big L position and is a checkpoint of a high level serve technique. Hi Tech Tennis is a creditable reference. Since the Big L is defined everyone can simply look at a video and check any serve, their own or high level serves. After you look at many serves and see this, that is all it takes to diagnose that a serve is not a high level serve.

 

[Raul_SJ]

What does "edge-on at Trophy" Position mean? What is "edge-on" to what?

.

At trophy, the racquet needs to be slightly closed or vertical, not opened up like OP. From there, one can proceed to racquet drop with an approximate 90 degree angle between forearm and upper arm.

But that opening up at trophy is a hard habit to break.

I would suggest shadow swing first to confirm you can perform the swing without WT error.

 

[Chas Tennis]

At trophy, the racquet needs to be slightly closed or vertical, not opened up like OP. From there, one can proceed to racquet drop with an approximate 90 degree angle between forearm and upper arm.

But that opening up at trophy is a hard habit to break.

I would suggest shadow swing first to confirm you can perform the swing without WT error.

Is there an "edge-on" at Trophy Position? Is "edge-on" a clear and useful term at Trophy Position? Could we see a picture? Do the pro servers have an 'edge-on' checkpoint at Trophy Position?

Are all Waiter's Tray serves 'open' as early as Trophy Position?

Open to me would say that the higher edge of the racket is more behind in the travel direction than the lower edge. In that regard, the racket is almost always open or closed except for an instant in between. The racket is open or closed to some degree during 99% of the service motion. But to say the strings are roughly 'facing the sky' says much more and is easier to identify.

Is there a creditable reference discussing how open the racket is during the Trophy Position?

 

[Raul_SJ]

Is there an "edge-on" at Trophy Position? Is "edge-on" a clear and useful term at Trophy Position? Could we see a picture? Do the pro servers have an 'edge-on' checkpoint at Trophy Position?

Are all Waiter's Tray serves 'open' as early as Trophy Position?

Open to me would say that the higher edge of the racket is more behind in the travel direction than the lower edge. In that regard, the racket is almost always open or closed except for an instant in between. The racket is open or closed to some degree during 99% of the service motion. But to say the strings are roughly 'facing the sky' says much more and is easier to identify.

Is there a creditable reference discussing how open the racket is during the Trophy Position?

I stand corrected. "Edge on" is not a way to describe opening up at trophy. Not sure how to describe it. Don't want to open up at trophy.
Here you see ex-pro Jeff Salzenstein make the correction on a student.

 

[Raul_SJ]

The WT error looks to be related to wrist extension at trophy instead of maintaining an approximately neutral to slightly flexed wrist position at trophy and then employing ESR to achieve the racquet drop position.

Are all Waiter's Tray serves 'open' as early as Trophy Position?

Do not know the breakdown. I suspect the majority of WT errors happen before the racquet drop position. As shown above.

WT error can also happen on the swing up, after achieving a correct drop. But I suspect that is the minority and more easily fixed.

 

[StringSnapper]

Here's my mechanical engineer's view on the issue of mass. The tennis ball weights ~2 oz. A typical 11 oz racquet has ~5 oz in the hoop. This gives mass ratio of 5/2 = 2.5

Now a racquet weighing 12 oz could have 5.5 oz in the hoop. This gives a mass ratio of 5.5/2 = 2.75

Based on mass and momentum physics, the higher weight can crush the ball 10% harder for increased ball velocity. (of course, simply comparing the relative mass of the two racquets would give the same answer). This assumes one has the arm strength to handle the heavier racquet. Lighter racquets generally imply a stiffer design -- not so good for tennis elbow etc. With less arm strength, a lighter racquet is better to achieve high racquet speed at impact. I may be small, but my arm strength is atypical for height, so racquets with head tape and thus weighted to 12.25 oz seems about right. The i.Prestige comes in a little heavier at 12.5 oz, and depending on my mood seems slightly heavy. The NXG's are also about 12.25 oz.

Lmao sounds like a typical post here

 

[ext2hander]

Its said the WT serve is hit at lower tossing point (like Dougherty Hammer That Serve videos). But the posters say WT is hit flat, with no spin. I do hold the racquet an 1/8 turn toward continental, or close to that. But I do achieve spin/slice on my serves, and greater spin for second serve when focuses more to tilt shoulders strongly with rear leg flexed -- and assuring the toss is slightly to the left. This gives more spin than my normal first serve; both are hit with good pace.

Now you take the classic retiree rec player with WT. The shoulders are square to the target. Eyes focused in that same direction. The swing stays totally in the same plane, with serve being quite flat. They seem to be trying to hit low to barely clear the net with extra low toss, and short in the box, sometimes with a slice ... rather than deep (they sense deep serves are easier to smack). And then they'll say, I can't serve that side ... looking directly at target and into the sun (hitting from north side in mornings)

I stand sideways with back of front shoulder pointing to opposing player, and toss in a plane so I'm looking to the right ... what sun? Once I start my serve to get balanced, I no longer look at the target. They can do jumping jacks or cartwheels, I don't care. Totally focused on the smooth easy toss and mechanics to contact. So often opposing players decide to pick up a ball or disappear after I start my movements. I don't see them. They need stay put once the server starts his motion, but they don't. Hit a hard serve between the feet of a player recently, as he strolls into the target forecourt after I started. Wrong.

My swing is thrust upward and left-to-right at contact to achieve both power and spin. I like to say "strike" the ball, whether first or second serve, i.e. strike upward (and pronate); this assures imparting top spin at contact, and not pushing with wrist layback (another common syndrome in rec players). My serves are all with spin, and curve sideways somewhat.

Like I said, I need to practice half-serves, starting from the racquet in leading-on-edge position, and whatever grip is needed to perform. Probably combine with initial shoulder tilt and shoulder/hip rotation leading the racquet for easy power.

 

[ext2hander]

OK, not that you asked for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-9B7q5rT9Q. But here's from the prior day, serving from afar, i.e. WHAT THE RECEIVERS SEE. The guy in pink is a pretty good rec player, just playing casual at the baseline among us lesser players. Note I don't let up on 2nd serve, just striking harder for more spin with confidence. See also at 1:08 serving, then stepping up quickly for two-hander on-the-fly for winner, then next point another two-hand winner from baseline. I've hit E2HBH winners from well behind the baseline hitting at max effort, catching players sleeping. Note that I don't like returning those pusher backspin shots with my FH, but its all legit.

 

[ext2hander]

Yep, at 75 my serve in 2021 was closer to leading on edge, and my two-hander nearly as strong as ever. Here's clips from 2021 at 75, then 2020, and 2018 at 72. After discovering a couple Prince Woodie Graphite racquets at Goodwill for $5 and $7, lately I start the mornings with the 13.2 oz super flexible Woodies for shock absorption, restrung to 55-60 lbs, before graduating to selected graphite racquets depending on opponents. Having cracked one, I picked up a 3rd on the internet for $22 prestrung at 32 lbs tension with basic syn gut -- the racquet plays surprisingly well given the strings. For history sake, here's my recent game at 75, to compare with my 72 game.

I attribute my improvement since 64 to switching the plant-based diet, ridding of the red and white meats, and most anything that came from source with two eyes. No kidding, plant-based slows the aging process, while minimizing risk factor to disease. Check Drs John McDougall (drmocdougall.com), Caldwell Esselstyn, Neal Barnard, T Colin Campbell who are my idols not in tennis. Check back in 3 years for my game at 78!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OM4HJHRl9fc

 

[FiddlerDog]

This is your next stop!