My experience with flexy vs stiff racquets

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
So can anyone recommend a control/feel oriented frame, like the Phantom Pro 100P or VCore Pro 97 that is closer to my weighted up Pure Aero Lite which is at about 11.5. My PALite doesn’t cause me arm problems but I do have a tough time with accuracy and depth control in comparison to the other 2.
Try the Prince Tour Lite (the old one on clearance at TW) also the ProKennex Q+ Tour comes in a number of different weights. Really liked that one.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
From my personal experience, it's not the racket itself causing you elbow pain. It's the fact you're required to swing harder/faster in order to get the same depth of the ball. The same thing happened to me after switching from a Pure Drive to a Phantom. My elbow was hurting because my swing has changed. The racket was forcing me to swing harder than I was used to.

I ended up going back to the Pure Drive and am sticking with high-powered rackets. Player's rackets do feel nice, but they aren't for everybody.
Going from a PD to a Phantom is a huge shift in frames so it's not surprising that would bother you. You went from one of the most powerful racquets to the one of the least powerful!
 
I have installed ALU 16 Ga in Prestige Mids as low as 44#. Client asked for this tension. In a Prestige MP, have installed ALU 16 Ga as low as 47#. Keep in mind this is ref tension. Playing tensions are at least 10-15% lower. To answer your question, the answer is you can go as low as you want to go subject to control issue. Polyester strings and co-polymer strings are stiff. That means you can/should explore using lower ref tensions. There is an entire thread by TW Staff on this.
I gotcha! I've played Black Widow at 38 in a Graphene Radical Pro and it was a little too powerful, but that's also a stiff frame with a powerful string (for a poly). I imagine in a flexy mid frame I could go 42-45 and have pretty solid control.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Idk if I could play Kevlar at 70lbs o_O Don't get me wrong, flexible racquets feel great! Just not sure why they seem to bother my elbow.
I think it’s the adjustment. But I would just go with whatever works. I’ve always played with somewhat heavy and flexible racquets. So using the Babs feels weird to me.
 
I think it’s the adjustment. But I would just go with whatever works. I’ve always played with somewhat heavy and flexible racquets. So using the Babs feels weird to me.
Understandable! Does anyone have a racquet suggestion that is middle of the road in terms of flex but relatively controlled/low powered? I’m leaning towards the PS 98 16x19, but I’ve heard so many horror stories about that frame and arm problems. I know I use the Team weighted up, but they aren’t quite the same so I’m not sure whether to pull the trigger or not.
 

Garro

Rookie
I have hit with the VCore Pro 97 310, and I also owned two Phantom Pro 100s. The Phantoms were definitely more comfortable than the Yonex, but still wasn’t pain free; even with the Fed setup of VS/ALU rough

Hmm. Yeah that is very interesting, and hard to figure out. The Phantom Pro still has a higher combination of swingweight+static weight than most of the racquets you say you like, so that COULD be what's causing the problem.
But then again you say you have solid technique which makes that seem less likely of an explanation.

The trouble is that to test this you'd need to find a racquet that has both low RA and is lightweight too and there aren't many of them around. Two racquets that felt really comfortable to me are the Prince Tour 98 ESP and the Wilson Blade 104 (2015) but those are hard to find now.

Have you hit with the Wilson Triad racquets before? They are lightweight racquets that have a stiffness rating lower than most wooden racquets, due to how the frame is constructed.
 
Hmm. Yeah that is very interesting, and hard to figure out. The Phantom Pro still has a higher combination of swingweight+static weight than most of the racquets you say you like, so that COULD be what's causing the problem.
But then again you say you have solid technique which makes that seem less likely of an explanation.

The trouble is that to test this you'd need to find a racquet that has both low RA and is lightweight too and there aren't many of them around. Two racquets that felt really comfortable to me are the Prince Tour 98 ESP and the Wilson Blade 104 (2015) but those are hard to find now.

Have you hit with the Wilson Triad racquets before? They are lightweight racquets that have a stiffness rating lower than most wooden racquets, due to how the frame is constructed.
I haven’t! The lightest and flexiest racquet I’ve played is the Clash 100, and that gave me more elbow pain than pretty much anything. The Clash 98 was much better, but still felt slight discomfort on serves.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Understandable! Does anyone have a racquet suggestion that is middle of the road in terms of flex but relatively controlled/low powered? I’m leaning towards the PS 98 16x19, but I’ve heard so many horror stories about that frame and arm problems. I know I use the Team weighted up, but they aren’t quite the same so I’m not sure whether to pull the trigger or not.
I don’t think the PS 98 is what you want. My understanding is it’s pretty powerful.

I want to again suggest you give the ProKennex Q+ Tour a try. I think you will find it comfortable and a nice blend of power and control. It’s also pretty nice to look at too.

On the other hand have you tried the new Pure Aero? Supposed to be more comfortable than the old one.
 
I don’t think the PS 98 is what you want. My understanding is it’s pretty powerful.

I want to again suggest you give the ProKennex Q+ Tour a try. I think you will find it comfortable and a nice blend of power and control. It’s also pretty nice to look at too.

On the other hand have you tried the new Pure Aero? Supposed to be more comfortable than the old one.
I’ve heard good things about the Q+ Tour! I have hit with the new Pure Aero and it was nice, but I prefer something that allows me to swing out more and not feel like I have to spin it all the time.
 

Keoni068

Rookie
Understandable! Does anyone have a racquet suggestion that is middle of the road in terms of flex but relatively controlled/low powered? I’m leaning towards the PS 98 16x19, but I’ve heard so many horror stories about that frame and arm problems. I know I use the Team weighted up, but they aren’t quite the same so I’m not sure whether to pull the trigger or not.

I'd love to hear some suggestions too! Seems like we're in the same boat.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
The new Prince Tours also come in a variety of weights. They are rated at 64 RA I believe.

I really like the Prince lineup these days. They seem to have struck a nice balance between comfort and performance and their quality seems pretty good. I’ve bought four Prince racquets in the last couple years and they were always at spec.

For what it’s worth I used to play with a prostaff for like 10 years but found it too powerful. The prostaff isn’t really a control frame it’s more of a club to pound the ball with.
 
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AA7

Hall of Fame
The new Prince Tours also come in a variety of weights. They are rated at 64 RA I believe.

I really like the Prince lineup these days. They seem to have struck a nice balance between comfort and performance and their quality seems pretty good. I’ve bought four Prince racquets in the last couple years and they were always at spec.

For what it’s worth I used to play with a prostaff for like 10 years but found it too powerful. The prostaff isn’t really a control frame it’s more of a club to pound the ball with.
I would recommend the same.. Give Prince Tour line a try. Old models and new models does not matter.. they are really good frames... they are not thin beam and they are 64-65RA... they play like 60 with no vibrations whatsoever.
 
For me it's outside/forearm pain

Odd. Makes me think it must have more to do with form than the racquets. I sometimes get "golfer's elbow" on the inside when I'm late on my forehand with a racquet that's a bit too heavy, but I've never had tennis elbow, and pretty much all I play with are heavier flexy low-powered racquets. Consider me baffled.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
Any reason you want to try flex rackets if you are having no problems with stiffer frames?
My Pro Kennex (315) aren’t low RA at 67 but the kinetic mass system does seem to work well to avoid TE.
Generally I find lighter 300 or less rackets can hurt my wrist and heavier rackets my shoulder.
 
Any reason you want to try flex rackets if you are having no problems with stiffer frames?
My Pro Kennex (315) aren’t low RA at 67 but the kinetic mass system does seem to work well to avoid TE.
Generally I find lighter 300 or less rackets can hurt my wrist and heavier rackets my shoulder.
I would like a little less power and a lower launch angle. My backhand is relatively flat, big flat first serve is a weapon, and forehand I can hit huge spin or flat, so I’d prefer a racquet that can accommodate me swinging out more.
 

Mr_Zorg

New User
Going from a PD to a Phantom is a huge shift in frames so it's not surprising that would bother you. You went from one of the most powerful racquets to the one of the least powerful!
Yes, that is true. The reason I did it was to force myself to play more creatively and implement touch shots into my game. Phantom did, in fact, help with that. However, I struggled with literally everything else. Baseline exchanged became a chore I found myself not being able to control the points.

I like the new Prince Tour line. Might give one of them a try.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
Yes, that is true. The reason I did it was to force myself to play more creatively and implement touch shots into my game. Phantom did, in fact, help with that. However, I struggled with literally everything else. Baseline exchanged became a chore I found myself not being able to control the points.

I like the new Prince Tour line. Might give one of them a try.
Ha ha! That was exactly how I felt about the 100P. Great serves and volleys and overheads but couldn’t hit baseline shots to save my life. After a year I finally decided I just couldn’t play with it and my game had improved since.
 
D

Deleted member 756272

Guest
I injured my wrist trialing a bunch of different frames. I believe its b/c of the between racquet changes in swing weight and balance than what I'm used to. Also noticed more unconscious wrist action with lighter racquets.

Not surprisingly, I hated all of the new racquets initially. After adding lead tape to match all of the new racquets to my original (preferred) specs, wrist pain is gone and they all feel very similar.

I'm almost convinced that most racquets will feel the same if the specs are matched. However, I do concede that there is a slight difference between string patterns. Haven't figured out what tension will match a 16x19 vs 18x20 for an equivalent head size.
 

WestboroChe

Hall of Fame
I injured my wrist trialing a bunch of different frames. I believe its b/c of the between racquet changes in swing weight and balance than what I'm used to. Also noticed more unconscious wrist action with lighter racquets.

Not surprisingly, I hated all of the new racquets initially. After adding lead tape to match all of the new racquets to my original (preferred) specs, wrist pain is gone and they all feel very similar.

I'm almost convinced that most racquets will feel the same if the specs are matched. However, I do concede that there is a slight difference between string patterns. Haven't figured out what tension will match a 16x19 vs 18x20 for an equivalent head size.
In my experience drop about 2-3 lbs of tension going to the 18x20.

I strung my Prince 100P at 52 but when I switched to the 100L I bumped the tension up to 55. No real issues there.
 

TennisManiac

Hall of Fame
Maybe I'm the odd duck here, but any time I use a thin-beamed/flexy racquet, I have elbow pain. Ultra Tour, Vcore Pro 97, any Prince Phantom, K7 Lime, Clash, etc. However, I don't experience any arm pain when I play with thick-beamed/stiff racquets. Pure Strike, Pure Aero, Pure Drive, Graphene Radical Pro, etc. My current setup is a Pure Strike Team w/ 2g at 12, 4g total at 3&9, dampener, and then 24g in the handle + an OG (around 340g strung if I remember correctly). Strung with Head Hawk Touch 17 @ 54 lbs. Doesn't cause me any pain whatsoever, and I had read all over the forums and in the reviews that anything with Babolat written on it was a one-way ticket to arm pain. The "plushest" racquet I've hit with is the Ultra Tour weighted up to about 345g, but I'm 100% serious when I say that even with a hybrid of NXT and Alu, I had arm pain. Anyone else experience this backwards-ness?
I'm starting to think the exact same thing these days. I've been playing with flexy frames like the Pro Staffs and the Prestige Pros strung with Alu Power at 46 or 48 depending on temperatures. And every once in a while if I play more than like 2 times a week I start to experience elbow and shoulder pain. So I decided to try something the other day and string a hybrid of Alu mains at 48 and Syngut crosses at 52. Played with it for a set. I thought it felt really soft... almost sponge like in terms of feel. The next day my elbow and shoulder hurt more than it has in quite a while. WTF? I'm really starting to think that for some of us stiffer frames are better for our arms than flexible frames. Flexible frames absorb lots of energy and vibrate for a much longer period of time. And those vibrations are traveling into our arms. Where as a stiffer frame deflects most of the energy and doesn't allow all those vibrations to occur and travel into our arms. Makes sense to me anyway.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
If you believe vibrations vs impact shock are the root cause of TE. I personally think most vibratory sensations are largely harmless and impact shock does most of the tendon damage.

But there’s not a lot of science about it. Until you take 100 tennis players, make them play 2 hours a day for two weeks with a flexible racket the cross over to a stiff frame, you’ll never know for sure.

In the end it’s more likely a “different” frame will cause the most problems.
 

Strawbewwy

Rookie
I'm starting to think the exact same thing these days. I've been playing with flexy frames like the Pro Staffs and the Prestige Pros strung with Alu Power at 46 or 48 depending on temperatures. And every once in a while if I play more than like 2 times a week I start to experience elbow and shoulder pain. So I decided to try something the other day and string a hybrid of Alu mains at 48 and Syngut crosses at 52. Played with it for a set. I thought it felt really soft... almost sponge like in terms of feel. The next day my elbow and shoulder hurt more than it has in quite a while. WTF? I'm really starting to think that for some of us stiffer frames are better for our arms than flexible frames. Flexible frames absorb lots of energy and vibrate for a much longer period of time. And those vibrations are traveling into our arms. Where as a stiffer frame deflects most of the energy and doesn't allow all those vibrations to occur and travel into our arms. Makes sense to me anyway.
if you think about it from another perspective, being rigid transfers more energy directly to your body, the vibrations are actually dissipating the energy

think about car technologies, we've gone from extremely rigid cars to cars nowadays that are designed to collapse because the act of collapsing is an energy transfer to the frame itself, old rigid cars getting into a crash = all that energy transferring to our bodies because nothing is absorbing that energy
 
I'm starting to think the exact same thing these days. I've been playing with flexy frames like the Pro Staffs and the Prestige Pros strung with Alu Power at 46 or 48 depending on temperatures. And every once in a while if I play more than like 2 times a week I start to experience elbow and shoulder pain. So I decided to try something the other day and string a hybrid of Alu mains at 48 and Syngut crosses at 52. Played with it for a set. I thought it felt really soft... almost sponge like in terms of feel. The next day my elbow and shoulder hurt more than it has in quite a while. WTF? I'm really starting to think that for some of us stiffer frames are better for our arms than flexible frames. Flexible frames absorb lots of energy and vibrate for a much longer period of time. And those vibrations are traveling into our arms. Where as a stiffer frame deflects most of the energy and doesn't allow all those vibrations to occur and travel into our arms. Makes sense to me anyway.
I've got both a 2015 Textreme Tour 95 strung with Ice Code 17 at 48 (60 RA, 337g strung) and a Pure Strike Team strung with Hyper G 17 at 57 (68 RA, 319g strung) in my bag right now, and regardless of where on the racquet face I strike them, the Pure Strike Team is more comfortable. It is also less jarring on off-centered hits. All that said, the TT95 wasn't uncomfortable, but it felt less comfortable than the lighter, stiffer frame. I'm not sure if this makes sense from a physics standpoint, but from my experience, since a stiffer frame is more powerful than a flexible frame, that would lead me to conclude that more energy is transmitted back to the ball than a flexible frame. Therefore, less energy to the arm. Whereas a flexible frame isn't very powerful and doesn't transfer as much energy to the ball. That absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and the only other place it can go is the arm.
 

TennisManiac

Hall of Fame
I've got both a 2015 Textreme Tour 95 strung with Ice Code 17 at 48 (60 RA, 337g strung) and a Pure Strike Team strung with Hyper G 17 at 57 (68 RA, 319g strung) in my bag right now, and regardless of where on the racquet face I strike them, the Pure Strike Team is more comfortable. It is also less jarring on off-centered hits. All that said, the TT95 wasn't uncomfortable, but it felt less comfortable than the lighter, stiffer frame. I'm not sure if this makes sense from a physics standpoint, but from my experience, since a stiffer frame is more powerful than a flexible frame, that would lead me to conclude that more energy is transmitted back to the ball than a flexible frame. Therefore, less energy to the arm. Whereas a flexible frame isn't very powerful and doesn't transfer as much energy to the ball. That absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and the only other place it can go is the arm.
I totally agree.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
if you think about it from another perspective, being rigid transfers more energy directly to your body, the vibrations are actually dissipating the energy

think about car technologies, we've gone from extremely rigid cars to cars nowadays that are designed to collapse because the act of collapsing is an energy transfer to the frame itself, old rigid cars getting into a crash = all that energy transferring to our bodies because nothing is absorbing that energy

Another analogy is that stiff racquets are like playing on hard courts and flexible racquets are like playing on clay. The sudden jarring stops on hard courts allow quick changes of direction but your body feels it the next day. Clay dissipates those sudden stops with sliding and more gradual deceleration/acceleration leading to slower changes of direction but your body feels better then next day.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
Understandable! Does anyone have a racquet suggestion that is middle of the road in terms of flex but relatively controlled/low powered? I’m leaning towards the PS 98 16x19, but I’ve heard so many horror stories about that frame and arm problems. I know I use the Team weighted up, but they aren’t quite the same so I’m not sure whether to pull the trigger or not.

I've been playing rather heavy and flexible Volkls for quite a while, including their C10 and the Organix 10 325g. My C10's have weighted handles for a more familiar balance and my O10's have lead on both their hoops and handles. So these are up there in the neighborhood of 12.7 oz. with lots of HL balance - maybe 11 pts. HL. These sort of frames have always been my personal normal, but interesting discoveries are unfolding for me now.

I picked up a pair of the newer V-Sense 10 325g's and I leaded one of them to get a layout more similar to my other Volkls, but I do NOT like it with the added weight. The stock heft and balance seems to be a lot more right for me in terms of feel, power, touch/control, etc. strung with a snug bed of 16 ga. syn. gut (my arm can't tolerate poly or hybrids). I'll be experimenting with these for a while longer and I might just stick with their stock setup.

In addition to these VS 10 325g's, Volkl also has a 295g version of that frame and there's also the V-Sense 10 Tour. All of them could check those boxes in terms of middle-of-the-road flex, relatively controlled/low-powered, etc. I've only used these VS 10 325g's, so I can't give any impressions on the others or even the newer models from their V-Feel line. But you might want to look over some of the Volkl options if you're thinking about some demos.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Speaking of flexible, I thought I was gonna love the Clash line. But, I thought they were duds and did not like the pronounced flex feel at all. Granted, even in my junior tennis days (I'm 46), I never played with a frame that flexible, even though they were more common. Lowest RA over my "career" was probably 62. I used to have a relatively flexy Fisher that I really enjoyed, and a couple of Dunlops. Like anything, it depends on the specific frame, not just the specs.

I've played with Pure Drives for 6-7 years now (both Roddick/Tour versions and standard version). I've had no more soreness after playing than other, more flexible frames, and haven't suffered any serious injuries. But, that really doesn't prove anything one way or the other.
 

Kevo

Legend
I'm not sure if this makes sense from a physics standpoint, but from my experience, since a stiffer frame is more powerful than a flexible frame, that would lead me to conclude that more energy is transmitted back to the ball than a flexible frame. Therefore, less energy to the arm. Whereas a flexible frame isn't very powerful and doesn't transfer as much energy to the ball. That absorbed energy has to go somewhere, and the only other place it can go is the arm.

Well, it sort of makes sense and it sort of doesn't. The ball flexes and uses up energy by being deformed. A flexible frame will use up energy by flexing as well. That energy used up by the frame flexing doesn't go into the arm. The stiffer frame is more powerful in the sense that not as much energy is used in the deformation of the frame.

What happens to your arm is determined by a lot of factors. And really, any frame with a good string used with good technique will probably be fine. The problem is people very often don't hit in the actual sweet spot of the frame, and different frames can transmit shock differently depending on where you strike the ball on the frame.

So I think it's good for people to try different things and be willing to use what works for them specifically and not necessarily rely on the generic rules of thumb. They are usually a good place to start, but sometimes the generic rule just doesn't work for a specific player.
 

topspn

G.O.A.T.
All it takes for me is an hour demo with a stiff frame like PD or APD and i immediately feel a sore arm
 

topspn

G.O.A.T.
Sounds like tendonitis.
No, I would feel pain all the time or any racquet I play. Just very stiff frames like I mentioned and it is more of arm discomfort if I just play them for an hour. I play a 65RA frame right now with no discomfort
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
No, I would feel pain all the time or any racquet I play. Just very stiff frames like I mentioned and it is more of arm discomfort if I just play them for an hour. I play a 65RA frame right now with no discomfort

Not true. I've had multiple cases of tendonitis (achilles, patellar, TE, wrist, GE) and frequently they feel fine when I play but only hurt once the arm cools down and stiffens up. Once I'm warmed up it feels fine. That's pretty typical of a chronic tendinopathy.
 

topspn

G.O.A.T.
You guys are arguing for an outcome with a narrative to fit. I do not have tendonitis mild or severe, in fact discomfort from a stiff frame is a general fatigue from the stress on the arm and even wrist. There are specific signs even if you have mild tennis elbow. I can try a stiff frame once a year like a new PD for an hour and immediately feel the stiffness in play and soreness after. Never any other time.
 

BlueB

Legend
You said earlier on that you have some pain with any racquet you play... Inless I completely misunderstood.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk
 

topspn

G.O.A.T.
No, where did you read that? This is what I said, "All it takes for me is an hour demo with a stiff frame like PD or APD and i immediately feel a sore arm”. I’m not sure how that can be misunderstood
 

leojramirez

Rookie
I've got wrist issues, tendonitis and positive ulnar variation... I'm finding more comfort on muted middle of the line stiff frames than anything else I've tried before.
 

Crocodile

G.O.A.T.
I have little problem with wide and stiff frames when it comes to groundstrokes and volleys but anything overhead and serves is where you tend to feel it. This is something I found when I experimented with a Volkl O 7 295g ( the green one) and more recently the V Feel 9. Both these frames have an RA around 74 and being Volkl's they have the handle dampening system which is great and the power was great to, but start serving big with them and you feel the stiffness. You could probably adjust the strings and string tension to see if you can adjust but it's an experiment you may not afford to try.
Pro Kennex's current Ki 5 300 has an RA of 70 and it's as close I can currently get to using s stiff frame that can work with the arm.
 

TennisManiac

Hall of Fame
Both these frames have an RA around 74 and being Volkl's they have the handle dampening system which is great and the power was great to, but start serving big with them and you feel the stiffness.

Damn...... I consider anything 68 and above stiff. I couldn't imagine playing with something in the mid 70's. :oops:
 

Kurt0707

Rookie
I have tried many rackets with different RAs and setups (stated not measured) and coming from tennis elbow, I have found that its got more to do with weight, SW, strings and tension, then RA rating alone. Sure low RA (<62) helps but even higher RA rackets can feel very comfortable, or vice versa low RA rackets can be uncomfortable.

  • I have demoed with PP100 18x20 (RA 55, SW 300) with high tension (>50) syngut, and it bothered my arm
  • I am now playing with Vcore Pro 97 modified to 340 grams/330 SW with multi at 47 lbs, it doesn't bother me at all, with lots of power & control
  • I also have K7 Limes at around 345gr/330 SW strung with gut/poly at 50/48 as well as multi at 52, probably the most comfy racket I have (also Technifiber Tfight 315 ltf 18x20 is also very comfortable with similar setup)
  • I have played with rackets with 67 RA too, with no issues strung with multi and 340gr/330 SW range, but I prefer the plusher feel
  • Worst was stiff, light and full poly strung racquets which instantly give me pain
 
Just to push the envelope a bit, I strung up a Pure Drive Roddick 2009 @ 63 with Black Widow, and I’ve never had such great control with such a powerful racquet. It was stiff as a board, but no arm pain thankfully. Honestly, off centered hits felt less jarring than the Textreme Tour 95 I was hitting with recently strung @ 48. And again, I have had arms issues in the past that caused me to give up the game for a few years after high school. So why a racquet that stiff with a poly strung that high bothers my arm less than a softer racquet at a lower tension is beyond me.
 
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