My FH after watching Murray/Djokovic/Thiem

jga111

Hall of Fame
Over the course of the last year I have been playing with a 'whip' forehand. My takeback started of as something similar to Djoko's with the racket head facing the back fence, but gripped more tightly, my wrist slightly more cocked back. And I would loosen it as I went to strike the ball. I found it difficult at first to get the timing right, and then to mix up the hitting with spins and flats but eventually I got there. But I found a couple of issues with this forehand for me:

* It wasn't a relaxed enough poise for me (even if I learnt to relax my grip on the takeback).
* I couldn't vary the spin enough, they were always of similar trajectory

I am not criticising the forehand mechanics itself, but myself - I'm sure I could have addressed these issues, but one day I saw a youtube video on Murray's forehand...

Ok so Murray for me has a completely different forehand to Djoko. The most noticeable difference is the takeback - he uses wrist flexion (as opposed to Djoko's wrist extension). Then I noticed how relaxed he was, how relaxed he was holding the racket, and then how he would drive, with his racket, his body, his trunk, etc all in unison with graceful, and yet excellent effect. Now I didn't want to change the wrist aspect of my forehand, but I started to play more relaxed, and focus on hitting my load/pause position quickly so I could then drive like Murray (at least in attempt). So I did this for a few months, and I then noticed my spin was starting to change as a result; it would have more kick, and not just that - my takeback had changed, without me even realising. It was becoming more angular, with the face of the racket no longer meeting the fence perpendicular head-on. I started having issues with this:

* More error-prone with timing
* Less control than my previous Djoko setup

As a result I was frustrated in matches when I would flank the FH and whenever I was under pressure I would revert to the original Djoko setup, racket gripped tightly, etc. Control aspect was addressed but then I lost all the attributes of the FH I've been striving for; relaxed setup, more/easier spin generation.

I wanted to move completely away from the Djoko setup and I realised what I had to work on:

* Prepare even earlier
* Get to the load/pause position more quickly
* Anticipate and react faster

So I started having loads of intense hits and this was paying off. And while I was doing so, my takeback became more angular, with the edge of the racket pointing to the net in front of me. Like Thiem....

I've had this forehand over the last 2 weeks. It is sick. Because of the nature of the takeback, there is more angle pronation when approaching the 'pat-the-dog' state in the action, the net-affect of this is a more natural vertical line when hitting low-to-high, hence even more spin generated from whip. And hitting flat is actually not to bad, just hitting through the ball does the trick, no other gimmicks really required. I will be persisting with this forehand, I find it relaxed and effective - you do have to time everything so much earlier, but hey I want this to be my FH and I will try and try and try :)

Any of you guys have similar experiences? Any FHs of these players you can relate to?
 

Curious

Legend
with the edge of the racket pointing to the net in front of me. Like Thiem....
I guess you mean the tip of the racquet head pointing to the net. Sock and Kyrgios do the same. The other thing they have in common is elevated elbow during the takeback. I tried it and like it a lot but did not have enough time on court to develop consistency due to injury.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
I guess you mean the tip of the racquet head pointing to the net. Sock and Kyrgios do the same. The other thing they have in common is elevated elbow during the takeback. I tried it and like it a lot but did not have enough time on court to develop consistency due to injury.
That's right. I think Kyrgios' is a bit more extreme than Thiem's. And I think Sock's is even more extreme than Kyrgrios'. It's crucial to be relaxed when hitting this way though otherwise you could seriously injure the wrist or develop a sore tendon due to the heavy pronation and RHS speed needed to develop an effective shot.
 

Curious

Legend
That's right. I think Kyrgios' is a bit more extreme than Thiem's. And I think Sock's is even more extreme than Kyrgrios'. It's crucial to be relaxed when hitting this way though otherwise you could seriously injure the wrist or develop a sore tendon due to the heavy pronation and RHS speed needed to develop an effective shot.
I don't know exactly how but I get the most power when I hit this type of forehand, especially keeping the elbow really high like a wing during the takeback feels great. Odd but that's how I feel.

Look at his elbow here:

 

Boogslice

Rookie
I've tried this and like it a lot in theory, but couldn't really make it work for myself. I found I was hitting more balls into the net or I'd frame more often. It may just be a case of needing to work on timing and the racket angle at contact - but this high loop seemed to introduce too many variables that made the shot less consistent.
 

Tight Lines

Professional
To me, it doesn't really matter how you take your racket back. So long as you end up in the slot position as you start your forward swing, you should be fine. Without a video, we are all guessing here.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
To me, it doesn't really matter how you take your racket back. So long as you end up in the slot position as you start your forward swing, you should be fine. Without a video, we are all guessing here.
With my experience of the different take-backs it does matter. You see, you can get into the 'pat-the-dog' position with varying levels of pronation and momentum, which impacts the amount and type of spin you generate. Obviously RHS is a factor - but so is this.
 

Fintft

Legend
I realised what I had to work on:

* Prepare even earlier
* Get to the load/pause position more quickly
* Anticipate and react faster

So I started having loads of intense hits and this was paying off. And while I was doing so, my takeback became more angular, with the edge of the racket pointing to the net in front of me. Like Thiem....

I've had this forehand over the last 2 weeks. It is sick. Because of the nature of the takeback, there is more angle pronation when approaching the 'pat-the-dog' state in the action, the net-affect of this is a more natural vertical line when hitting low-to-high, hence even more spin generated from whip. And hitting flat is actually not to bad, just hitting through the ball does the trick, no other gimmicks really required. I will be persisting with this forehand, I find it relaxed and effective - you do have to time everything so much earlier, but hey I want this to be my FH and I will try and try and try :)

Any of you guys have similar experiences?
I also work on those three things, seriously, especially the first and the third.

As for your linear/angular take-back (as opposed to circular) two Romanian coaches advised me to do it (one here in Canada and a second one this Sept in Romania. The later being a decent coach, with credential both as a coach and player at national junior level runner up himself and with similar students).

I am more for hitting flat and through the ball etc, but I am not 100% that this take back helps me hit most relaxed, on the contrary I am under the impression that the circular take back relaxes me more (Maybe I am not timing things so much earlier, like you hint in the angular take back?). The angular take back also saves you time when pressed and that's its major selling point, according to some coaches.

Anyhow, in both, one thing that I always try on the court to help me relax is to really watch the ball, by making sure that I keep eyes at contact point through the contact.

This improves not only my consistency, but I hit more relaxed, hence more effortless power. The disguise doesn't hurt either.

Anyone else feels the same?
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I've tried this and like it a lot in theory, but couldn't really make it work for myself. I found I was hitting more balls into the net or I'd frame more often. It may just be a case of needing to work on timing and the racket angle at contact - but this high loop seemed to introduce too many variables that made the shot less consistent.
Ditto.
I've experimented with alot of different takebacks... but in general the bigger the C loop that the tip of the racquet traces:
* the more power/spin i can generate
* the less consistent i become
Maybe if i had 10-15y of 20h practice sessions, i could get it to work, but at my skill level, i can't, so i have to create a smaller loop, and sacrafice power.

Similarly, i think this is the same issue that pushers have when learning "modern topspin strokes".. .the topspin stroke is a more complicated motion, but requires a decent amount of practice to master.... which the typical 3.5 weekend warrior is not going to be able to accomplish playing 1-2hr per week.
 

coupergear

Professional
Tough to tell what you mean without video but I'm trying to do the same type of takeback.. relatively high with tip of racket pointed at net during loop then lag and release through. Every once in a while it locks in and feels really good, solid, easy power.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
I am still struggling with my takeback ... - my racket does this unnecessary loop that often screws up my timing ...
When I am conscious about it (and relaxed in a hitting session) - I can quiet down the take-back and my hits are a lot more consistent,
but in a heat of the moment - the body always seems to fall back to that silly loop ... don't know what to do about it ... :(

fwiw I have a similar issue on the bh ... @ Saddlebrook my instructor kept telling me that my backhand consists out of 2 phases ... half-takeback ... and then re-takeback as I hit ... not sure how to fix it ... and once again ... when I am consious of it, I can turn fully, keep turned and hit through ... but in the heat of the game ....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-BhMXUxdHd6SGc0VWM
 

Doc Hollidae

Hall of Fame
I am still struggling with my takeback ... - my racket does this unnecessary loop that often screws up my timing ...
When I am conscious about it (and relaxed in a hitting session) - I can quiet down the take-back and my hits are a lot more consistent,
but in a heat of the moment - the body always seems to fall back to that silly loop ... don't know what to do about it ... :(

fwiw I have a similar issue on the bh ... @ Saddlebrook my instructor kept telling me that my backhand consists out of 2 phases ... half-takeback ... and then re-takeback as I hit ... not sure how to fix it ... and once again ... when I am consious of it, I can turn fully, keep turned and hit through ... but in the heat of the game ....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-BhMXUxdHd6SGc0VWM
What grip are you using for your forehand? Eastern?
 

BlueB

Legend
Now I've seen everything... A technique thread used as vessel for Djokovic bashing. Sublime.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
If you have a big takeback, I would suggest you try the different variations of Nadal's FH takeback. It's very rhythmic.
 

jga111

Hall of Fame
*** UPDATE

So it's been over a month now and I've been playing with Thiem's/Kyrgios' takeback for around 70% of the time (circa 8 hours a week). It's definitely a 'secure' shot. You play with a lot more spin due to the steeper vertical brush. As a result you have to be prepared for the ball to hit the service line more - BUT it will do so with a lot of penetration. I have really struggled to hit the shot with power due to the unfamiliarity of it all but finally I'm improving in this area - I only bother when I'm in super-confident mode. The biggest negative for me is when I need to run/shift to my right before I hit back a ball given to me with pace. With these shots I either hit it back as a sliced FH, or with my regular topspin FH. But when in two minds, before I was still able to push it back somehow. This time it is just going sky high. This is my biggest weakness at the moment! On the whole I'm really loving this this FH and I intend to stick with it. I can understand why a lot of rec players won't even bother but I will persevere :)
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
I guess you mean the tip of the racquet head pointing to the net. Sock and Kyrgios do the same. The other thing they have in common is elevated elbow during the takeback. I tried it and like it a lot but did not have enough time on court to develop consistency due to injury.
All the good ATP forehands have this to some extent, but guys like Sock and Kyrgios exaggerate this move.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I am still struggling with my takeback ... - my racket does this unnecessary loop that often screws up my timing ...
When I am conscious about it (and relaxed in a hitting session) - I can quiet down the take-back and my hits are a lot more consistent,
but in a heat of the moment - the body always seems to fall back to that silly loop ... don't know what to do about it ... :(

fwiw I have a similar issue on the bh ... @ Saddlebrook my instructor kept telling me that my backhand consists out of 2 phases ... half-takeback ... and then re-takeback as I hit ... not sure how to fix it ... and once again ... when I am consious of it, I can turn fully, keep turned and hit through ... but in the heat of the game ....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-BhMXUxdHd6SGc0VWM
Month old ... you probably fixed everything by now. :) Man ... those courts were rockin ... love to see courts filled up like that.

"my backhand consists out of 2 phases ... half-takeback ... and then re-takeback as I hit"

I see it, you can fix that easy. Look at your video @00:37. You pause (set your hands) at the wrong place, and then "the second phase" you pull it from there to your slot/plane. You need to take your unit turn with no pause all the way to your preferred hitting slot. You can have your racquet as high as you have it (Zverev does), but you don't need to be that high.

Djokovic height below probably easier to time, but Zverev is high like yours:



Watch Zverev from 00:43 to 00:48 ... unit turn to plane of hitting slot ... no pause.


Forehand:

"I am still struggling with my takeback ... - my racket does this unnecessary loop that often screws up my timing ..."

I have struggled a bit with the timing transitioning to more modern FH with the loop. Here is my opinion ... the different take backs don't matter as much as long as you get to the slot position (pat the dog ... or whatever you want to call it). What I see you doing is what I do ... your prep is too late IMO. Granted ... you are on clay ... more time (I don't play clay). But the swing thoughts that has worked for me is 1) racquet up early with left hand facing toward left fence ... say at least by when ball clears net ... and 2) racquet needs to be dropping by the bounce of the ball ... then you don't get rushed going into slot-forward move". Anyway, that has worked for me. Clay is not for me ... played one entire summer and got better at it ... still drove me nuts. I was S&V at the time. It is good on the body, however.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
Month old ... you probably fixed everything by now. :) Man ... those courts were rockin ... love to see courts filled up like that.

"my backhand consists out of 2 phases ... half-takeback ... and then re-takeback as I hit"

I see it, you can fix that easy. Look at your video @00:37. You pause (set your hands) at the wrong place, and then "the second phase" you pull it from there to your slot/plane. You need to take your unit turn with no pause all the way to your preferred hitting slot. You can have your racquet as high as you have it (Zverev does), but you don't need to be that high.

Djokovic height below probably easier to time, but Zverev is high like yours:



Watch Zverev from 00:43 to 00:48 ... unit turn to plane of hitting slot ... no pause.


Forehand:

"I am still struggling with my takeback ... - my racket does this unnecessary loop that often screws up my timing ..."

I have struggled a bit with the timing transitioning to more modern FH with the loop. Here is my opinion ... the different take backs don't matter as much as long as you get to the slot position (pat the dog ... or whatever you want to call it). What I see you doing is what I do ... your prep is too late IMO. Granted ... you are on clay ... more time (I don't play clay). But the swing thoughts that has worked for me is 1) racquet up early with left hand facing toward left fence ... say at least by when ball clears net ... and 2) racquet needs to be dropping by the bounce of the ball ... then you don't get rushed going into slot-forward move". Anyway, that has worked for me. Clay is not for me ... played one entire summer and got better at it ... still drove me nuts. I was S&V at the time. It is good on the body, however.
Thanks for the feedback ... yeah - on the backhand that's what pros told me ... and I feel the problem that I am thinking about is common to both of my shots
(less so on the bh, but more so on the fh)

I think on the forehand the trouble comes down to the fact that I simply don't turn my hips enough, so instead of hips, I stretch/load my shoulders/core and the only way to get that "spring" effect is to stretch/load it (turn the chest/shoulders) right before the shot, thus I am always late as I try to time it ... I feel if I turn my hips more, then I can be turned earlier and still have the power, but this time from the hips ... as well as the core
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Thanks for the feedback ... yeah - on the backhand that's what pros told me ... and I feel the problem that I am thinking about is common to both of my shots
(less so on the bh, but more so on the fh)

I think on the forehand the trouble comes down to the fact that I simply don't turn my hips enough, so instead of hips, I stretch/load my shoulders/core and the only way to get that "spring" effect is to stretch/load it (turn the chest/shoulders) right before the shot, thus I am always late as I try to time it ... I feel if I turn my hips more, then I can be turned earlier and still have the power, but this time from the hips ... as well as the core
Like I said, I'm only giving my 2 cents opinion because I'm going through similar thoughts with relatively new FH w/loop, and the very new 2hbh (18 months). Since you were brave enough to put your video out, I will put my 2hbh at the bottom, and you can turn around and give me tips. I think if we combined a few things from both of our 2hbhs (probably mostly yours) we would be good.

Here are some some additional observations/comments from watching your video:

2hbh:



To my amateur eyes ... you have a very fundamentally sound 2hbh. After watching some of your actual points, really ... my main two observations would be:
1) skip that first pic ... paused position, and just go to pic 2 .. or 3 (the plane you want to hit on) ... at whatever racquet head height you prefer (i.e. pic 1). Note ... you are there at pic 2,3 looking over your front shoulder. And this pick is from 00:37 ... just warmup ... I bet if we checked you would have a bit more shoulder turn on full shots. Either way ... to my eyes ... very sound.
2) we can't get in each others arms and hands ... and feel tension, but I get the impression you might could relax a bit more. We all vary our follow throughs, but I watched your full swing follow throughs where racquet almost tapped the back and it looks like you aren't quite fully "letting go". I could be totally wrong ... what does it feel like to you.

pic #4 ... again, to my eyes, your lag looks great. Side view would be best ... but probably release/snap (whatever we call it when the racquet starts to rotate around it's butt cap) appears to be in the front hip range. That is where I seem to get to also. Don't look at some of Djokovic's release points ... past front hip ... sick. At contact you are bent/straight ... that is what I shoot for also. In my video, I seem to vary from bent/slight flex to bent/straight. My goal is bent/straight, unless I'm trying a topspin lob, then I like flex in the left arm.

FH:



"I think on the forehand the trouble comes down to the fact that I simply don't turn my hips enough, so instead of hips, I stretch/load my shoulders/core and the only way to get that "spring" effect is to stretch/load it (turn the chest/shoulders) right before the shot, thus I am always late as I try to time it ... I feel if I turn my hips more, then I can be turned earlier and still have the power, but this time from the hips ... as well as the core"

In 40 years of tennis I have never really thought about hips. I have thought about shoulder turn ... which IMO is much more important than the hips. To me, the stance and my full shoulder turn in a semi-open FH seem to take care of the hips automatically (i.e. my hips are turned when I look at video). I would be surprised if anyone athletic (played other sports ... like baseball) wouldn't have their hips do their thing automatically. You and your opponent are obviously athletic ... you are playing on that crazy dirt and not falling down. :) That said ... I have thought about starting a thread about "hips and stances", because I am always open to learn.

All of that being said ... that isn't the point I was trying to make. I have trouble with the additional timing of the loop ... so this has been on my mind. My point is when 1) we get into pic #1 position ... and 2) when we start the racquet drop (pic #2). I have read TT posts here on this subject, and opinions vary on "what is early enough". Also, obviously depends on pace of shot your facing and perhaps court surface. That dirt is slowing down everything. But the way I look at it, you can get to the pic #1 position pretty darn early on a neutral shot (i.e. not on the dead run). You watch the pros and they get to pic #1 position very early (like when it is clearing the net) , and the racquet starts to drop from pic # 2 around the bounce (Fed starts the drop before the bounce sometimes). In your pic #1, that ball just bounced. I'm thinking by pic #2, the racquet should already well on it's way down to slot position. Others have said this here (TT) ... that the back of the loop ... the drop ... is the time we get to adjust and time the shot. That makes sense to me ... and I don't feel rushed to get from that drop to contact. BTW ... if you looked at my FH video when I'm being lazy ... you could turn around and tell me to do exactly what I am suggesting you consider. Which reminds me .... you said you have coaches/pro. I'm here to learn, so it would always be good to hear pro/coach response to suggestions ... even if "no ... that idea is flat wrong". That's how we learn.

btw ... in pic #2, your hip + shoulder turn look good to me. Also, I'm not expert on contact point, but with your neutral hand/arm position at contact, looks good to me in pic #4. That is exactly what my contact hand position looks like (neutral ... and about that contact point which is hard to tell from behind ... I have a Eastern FH). So you made it IMO to contact ... not late ... maybe that's the final arbiter on "were you prepared early enough".

I love this pic of Goffin ... and his early preparation. He is on the dead run across the court ... and that racquet went up long before he can get into any kind of stance.



This Nishikori video is from behind, and a good angle to see when his racquet goes up. My observation is he is good to go on the 2hbh as long as his backswing is set by the bounce (that has been my 2hbh swing thought with the ball machine ... back by bounce). But on the FH ... he pretty much is making his upward move with the racquet around the point of net clearance. Now ... it's slow motion ... probably just practice not full out points, but would still seem to be a guideline. We aren't pros ... so we certainly don't have to match their prep ... but I hate being rushed on the FH side.


I will post ... I certainly don't want it right next to Nishikori's video ... not pretty. :)
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Here is my latest 2hbh video. All I have is hitting against ball machine... and it's from the side so you can't see ball path. But it's enough where you can comment and give me tips. Anyone else for that matter.

My own critique of the stroke at this point:

Good:
- relaxed, full stroke, decent timing even when not hitting with ball machine
- decent lag and contact point
- good weight transfer ... maybe too much
- good pace, and my control/targeting really improved this summer (but still can't play matches with TE, but did get to hit with friends)
- decent swing plane ... have improved it a bit since video by not letting hands get behind back ... and more neutral stance rather than that closed

Bad:
- have no idea what to do with my feet with ball machine session. [Bender calls my chicken dance GARNISH ... harsh].
- guess the initial step back thing is because it's repetitive with ball machine... no video of hitting with friends
- don't know what the crouch ... and then stand up into shot is about ... so much for keeping head still ... first thing to work on next spring
- my hands don't go directly to backswing position in a simple way ... got the crouch then racquet gets there.

Since that video, I went neutral stance and consciously stopped the crouch and lunge move ... and it doesn't change my timing. Just a silly habit that developed. It's a good checkpoint ... I guess like golf ... head needs to be still.

 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
Here is my latest 2hbh video. All I have is hitting against ball machine... and it's from the side so you can't see ball path. But it's enough where you can comment and give me tips. Anyone else for that matter.

My own critique of the stroke at this point:

Good:
- relaxed, full stroke, decent timing even when not hitting with ball machine
- decent lag and contact point
- good weight transfer ... maybe too much
- good pace, and my control/targeting really improved this summer (but still can't play matches with TE, but did get to hit with friends)
- decent swing plane ... have improved it a bit since video by not letting hands get behind back ... and more neutral stance rather than that closed

Bad:
- have no idea what to do with my feet with ball machine session. [Bender calls my chicken dance GARNISH ... harsh].
- guess the initial step back thing is because it's repetitive with ball machine... no video of hitting with friends
- don't know what the crouch ... and then stand up into shot is about ... so much for keeping head still ... first thing to work on next spring
- my hands don't go directly to backswing position in a simple way ... got the crouch then racquet gets there.

Since that video, I went neutral stance and consciously stopped the crouch and lunge move ... and it doesn't change my timing. Just a silly habit that developed. It's a good checkpoint ... I guess like golf ... head needs to be still.

says the video is private
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
Seems your backhand is left hand dominant, where is mine is right hand dominant.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
What strikes me most is how short your contact is . . . i.e. your swing plane is very narrow - when you can time it well it's a nice hit (almost a slap), but when you have to move to the shot, adjust, turn etc . . . my guess it will throw your timing off . . .

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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Seems your backhand is left hand dominant, where is mine is right hand dominant.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I would assume everyone is left hand dominant(at least near contact) .. just a matter of degree. But yes, the way I describe my 2hbh is the initial move forward is the shoulder/arm triangle (no arm dominance at that point), and then right at release (where racquet starts to rotate around the butt cap) I get after it with the left arm/hand and that adds the RHA.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
What strikes me most is how short your contact is . . . i.e. your swing plane is very narrow - when you can time it well it's a nice hit (almost a slap), but when you have to move to the shot, adjust, turn etc . . . my guess it will throw your timing off . . .

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"your swing plane is very narrow"

What do you mean ... racquet swing path? Extension?
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
"your swing plane is very narrow"

What do you mean ... racquet swing path? Extension?
how long in your swing the racquet face maintains the same angle through the shot ...
the more the angle is constant, the more consistent the shot through various points of contact (late or early)
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
how long in your swing the racquet face maintains the same angle through the shot ...
the more the angle is constant, the more consistent the shot through various points of contact (late or early)
closed vs open? Are you talking how quick the racquet closes over after contact ... or maintains it's face angle? If so, I see what you are talking about. My racquet face rolls over out in front of me ... but I'm not sure why. I seem to have full extension of the left arm ... and then the racquet face starts to close. It's like I have given the release of the hands like the golf swing.
 
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dimkin

Hall of Fame
closed vs open? Are you talking how quick the racquet closes over after contact ... or maintains it's face angle? If so, I see what you are talking about. My racquet face rolls over out in front of me ... but I'm not sure why. I seem to have full extension of the left arm ... and then the racquet face starts to close. It's like I have given the release of the hands like the golf swing.
Precisely...

You start with rf more open and u finish with the rf more closed. It gives you extra "slap" but exposes you to timing . . .


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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Precisely...

You start with rf more open and u finish with the rf more closed. It gives you extra "slap" but exposes you to timing . . .


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Thanks for tip. I will look at video, and do a bit of shadow swings to see what I'm doing to make that happen. It doesn't seem to be an arm extension issue ... pics below. I notice I had a similar issue on the FH WW finish cutting off to quick ... but figured out that was the right shoulder continued to turn into shot, rather pause at arm extending into shot.

So ...

This:



Not This:


I checked Murray on some of his flatter 2hbh swings, and same thing like you say ... racquet face maintains even on flatter swing.



When I fix this in spring ... I will call it my dimkin follow through. Good eye ... thanks.
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
Here is my latest 2hbh video. All I have is hitting against ball machine... and it's from the side so you can't see ball path. But it's enough where you can comment and give me tips. Anyone else for that matter.


What jumped out at me was the fact that you opened the racket face in the backswing. Was *amazed* at how much you opened it on the one-handers. Had thought that you were going to hit a slice. It seems the "rolling over" is merely a continuation of the rolling that was going on in the forward swing before contact in order to square the face up. Would think that would lead to *serious* timing issues. I've seen some guys do that successfully with Continental grip forehands, but not very often. . .

Most all of the pro two-handers I've looked at kept the racket face pretty much vertical throughout.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/albums/72157676084230192
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
What jumped out at me was the fact that you opened the racket face in the backswing. Was *amazed* at how much you opened it on the one-handers. Had thought that you were going to hit a slice. It seems the "rolling over" is merely a continuation of the rolling that was going on in the forward swing before contact in order to square the face up. Would think that would lead to *serious* timing issues. I've seen some guys do that successfully with Continental grip forehands, but not very often. . .

Most all of the pro two-handers I've looked at kept the racket face pretty much vertical throughout.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/albums/72157676084230192
Yes ... you are right... racquet face is open. Here are two videos from the back ... FH and BH. Check out the droppers at the end of the BH video ... that's my go to senior groundstroke. :)


 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31658732505/in/album-72157676084230192/

This doggie is gettin patted on its left ear. Hard to imagine how any significant amount of topspin could be applied with the racquet head already so close to the same height as the ball.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31622243776/in/album-72157676084230192/
Upon further review, the topspin is being applied by rolling the face over the ball. Timing city. The strings are only facing the target for a very short period of time.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31622243776/in/album-72157676084230192/
Upon further review, the topspin is being applied by rolling the face over the ball. Timing city. The strings are only facing the target for a very short period of time.
Now see . . . His rf isn't open on fh - it's just sideways, so when he rotates the body maintaining rf in the same "slot" or angle, he creates a nice drive. And its a nice consistent shot and as the "swing plane" is long and consistent he isn't exposed to the timing, closing off the rf on contact is a bonus, but not required on his forehand.

On the backhand, however, the picture is different, and Unless he closes it, the ball will be out of the ballpark. There is no drive.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31658732505/in/album-72157676084230192/

This doggie is gettin patted on its left ear. Hard to imagine how any significant amount of topspin could be applied with the racquet head already so close to the same height as the ball.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31622243776/in/album-72157676084230192/
Upon further review, the topspin is being applied by rolling the face over the ball. Timing city. The strings are only facing the target for a very short period of time.
This is my current non-flip FH ... WTA if you will ... without flip. No dog patting without flip. I don't have video of my flip swings ... probably a good thing. :) But there is some reverse WW ESR swing thought ... and some closed racquet face ... and a decent amount of forearm/racquet angle (that is the beauty of not videoing ... your stroke can be whatever you imagine :) ).

Isn't it physically impossible to roll over? I think the topspin from my FH is coming from square racquet face low to high. Isn't that the only cause, other than closing racquet face ... which I never do that I know about. Those video FHs are pretty much my neutral FHs ... moderate topspin to keep the ball in. I prefer a flatter game with just a little topspin margin of error ... and call up more for crosscourt passing shots, or topspin lob. I can actually hit a pretty heavy topspin lob with that stroke. More so with the RPM, and a bit less with the gut.

Here is what I saw on my FH that I think would help with pace. This was the point of my shoulder acceleration thread. Watch my right shoulder at impact. It keeps rotating through contact. That makes for a smooth delivery ... but passing maximum acceleration to upper arm requires a deceleration/pause of the shoulder near contact. You read my thread ... so you know what I mean. When I look at my 2hbh video ... even with my extracurricular standing into the shot ... the shoulder turn deceleration\pause\completion looks good to me.

I guess contact points and extension harder to view from behind ... but maybe the fix above helps with extension also.

Good feedback ... thanks.
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
Now see . . . His rf isn't open on fh - it's just sideways, so when he rotates the body maintaining rf in the same "slot" or angle, he creates a nice drive. And its a nice consistent shot and as the "swing plane" is long and consistent he isn't exposed to the timing, closing off the rf on contact is a bonus, but not required on his forehand.

On the backhand, however, the picture is different, and Unless he closes it, the ball will be out of the ballpark. There is no drive.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/30818923874/in/album-72157676084230192/

I suspect that palm is rotating over all the way from here to the finish.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31622243776/in/album-72157676084230192/

Palm has gone from facing up to facing down. To me, a key to the WW is having the palm facing "away from yer face" all the way from the back swing loop through the finish.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Now see . . . His rf isn't open on fh - it's just sideways, so when he rotates the body maintaining rf in the same "slot" or angle, he creates a nice drive. And its a nice consistent shot and as the "swing plane" is long and consistent he isn't exposed to the timing, closing off the rf on contact is a bonus, but not required on his forehand.

On the backhand, however, the picture is different, and Unless he closes it, the ball will be out of the ballpark. There is no drive.





Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
This is why it's so useful to get other eyes on strokes ... if you saw the problem yourself you would have fixed it. Putting your strokes on a internet messageboard isn't for the thin-skinned ... but sometimes collaboration helps.

Makes you think there could be one hell of a thread where we all put our videos in it ... and everyone bounced between giving and receiving tips. Your video of actual match/game play is best, but even my ball machine hits offer enough to analyze.

Thanks
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
This is my current non-flip FH ... WTA if you will ... without flip. No dog patting without flip. I don't have video of my flip swings ... probably a good thing. :) But there is some reverse WW ESR swing thought ... and some closed racquet face ... and a decent amount of forearm/racquet angle (that is the beauty of not videoing ... your stroke can be whatever you imagine :) ).

Isn't it physically impossible to roll over? I think the topspin from my FH is coming from square racquet face low to high. Isn't that the only cause, other than closing racquet face ... which I never do that I know about. Those video FHs are pretty much my neutral FHs ... moderate topspin to keep the ball in. I prefer a flatter game with just a little topspin margin of error ... and call up more for crosscourt passing shots, or topspin lob. I can actually hit a pretty heavy topspin lob with that stroke. More so with the RPM, and a bit less with the gut.

Here is what I saw on my FH that I think would help with pace. This was the point of my shoulder acceleration thread. Watch my right shoulder at impact. It keeps rotating through contact. That makes for a smooth delivery ... but passing maximum acceleration to upper arm requires a deceleration/pause of the shoulder near contact. You read my thread ... so you know what I mean. When I look at my 2hbh video ... even with my extracurricular standing into the shot ... the shoulder turn deceleration\pause\completion looks good to me.

I guess contact points and extension harder to view from behind ... but maybe the fix above helps with extension also.

Good feedback ... thanks.
Looks like a nice, smooth, old style, Eastern grip forehand. I suspect, though, that were you to swing really hard/fast, then the margin for error drops to too fine a margin. I'd *love* to be able to crack hard, flat forehands. It's just beyond my skill level.

As to the physical impossibility of rolling over, well, I think the jury is still out. . .
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/30818923874/in/album-72157676084230192/

I suspect that palm is rotating over all the way from here to the finish.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31622243776/in/album-72157676084230192/

Palm has gone from facing up to facing down. To me, a key to the WW is having the palm facing "away from yer face" all the way from the back swing loop through the finish.
You have a good eye. That is what I was talking about in a previous post. I had observed the same thing ... WW breaks off in follow through. My first thought is doesn't matter ... after contact the ball is gone. But I guess what we learn from follow through is what dimkin was talking about with the 2hbh. Even though contact is just a fraction of a second ... different swings give you the best chance for consistent contact. If the WW follow through breaking off early is an indication of contact issues ... then you go work on it.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Looks like a nice, smooth, old style, Eastern grip forehand. I suspect, though, that were you to swing really hard/fast, then the margin for error drops to too fine a margin. I'd *love* to be able to crack hard, flat forehands. It's just beyond my skill level.

As to the physical impossibility of rolling over, well, I think the jury is still out. . .
Yes, Eastern ... and yes, game has always been more smooth/controlled ... and no rope FH. You say traditional ... but I think that is what I had before left arm went across. Went McEnroe continental to WTA Eastern 5+ years ago... but had no idea people called that WTA. Maybe WTA is the new traditional. :)

Interestingly, in the last couple of ball machine sessions before I put it up for winter, I was getting pretty good rope on the FH. Found out turning shoulders a bit more (felt a little tension in back) in semi-open stance produced significantly more pace. You would think it would all be incremental. Part of it might have been better timing by dropping the flip quest/project. I don't think the flip adds pace over the full WTA ... I think it just matches it from from a shorter backswing. In fact, I think there are very good odds 5.0 players and down would hit their max FH pace potential from the WTA. Not exactly something one could prove ...
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
You have a good eye. That is what I was talking about in a previous post. I had observed the same thing ... WW breaks off in follow through. My first thought is doesn't matter ... after contact the ball is gone. But I guess what we learn from follow through is what dimkin was talking about with the 2hbh. Even though contact is just a fraction of a second ... different swings give you the best chance for consistent contact. If the WW follow through breaking off early is an indication of contact issues ... then you go work on it.
I believe the issue is shown in this still:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31658732505/in/album-72157676084230192/

There is nothing that you can do from this position to produce significant topspin. You can't swing from low-to-high unless you start from "low". Yer racket is already almost as high as the contact point. The arc of the windshield wipe starts far lower than the contact point. If the racket is already up to this height, then further "wiping" would lead to a whiff. Lag and snap are irrelevant for dealing with this issue. The girls also drop the racket head well below their hands before starting forward.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/30852989053/in/album-72157676084230192/
 

mntlblok

Hall of Fame
Now see . . . His rf isn't open on fh - it's just sideways, so when he rotates the body maintaining rf in the same "slot" or angle, he creates a nice drive. And its a nice consistent shot and as the "swing plane" is long and consistent he isn't exposed to the timing, closing off the rf on contact is a bonus, but not required on his forehand.
I think the shots can be hit off either side without closing the face in the back swing (keeping it vertical). What I *do* think is critical is getting the racket head below the contact point before swing forward (and up).
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
I think the shots can be hit off either side without closing the face in the back swing (keeping it vertical). What I *do* think is critical is getting the racket head below the contact point before swing forward (and up).
I agree, that's why I don't see a problem with the fh ... but more of a potential issue with the bh
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I believe the issue is shown in this still:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/31658732505/in/album-72157676084230192/

There is nothing that you can do from this position to produce significant topspin. You can't swing from low-to-high unless you start from "low". Yer racket is already almost as high as the contact point. The arc of the windshield wipe starts far lower than the contact point. If the racket is already up to this height, then further "wiping" would lead to a whiff. Lag and snap are irrelevant for dealing with this issue. The girls also drop the racket head well below their hands before starting forward.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/30852989053/in/album-72157676084230192/
That's just one stroke. All of those on the video were moderate topspin. I need a video of hitting a heavy topspin lob, and then we could check the racquet back position, and the swing path (have to wait until spring). Isn't that how we all (those of us with square rf at contact) vary topspin ... vary our low to high swing path. Will be back soon... changing that back sprocket on the beast, and adding some lube to the wheel bearings (they were frickin dry ... guess that is what you get with a $199 Walmart bike :) ). Of course, if I left the bearings dry ... and didn't bump up the back sprocket from 16 teeth to 22 ... just that much more of a workout. That is ... if I had lived to tell about it... heart was pounding at the 1/2 mile mark. Even if the bike is only for exercise, you still would like to get a couple of miles in :) .
 
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