My issue with the "loose wrist" obsession - might help others

[JMayball]

I'm a relative newbie and I've been struggling with my forehand for a little while. Inconsistent, sailing balls long...and it wasn't until I took some video that I noticed a possible reason for this. My wrist is way too loose.

After countless youtube lessons encouraging us to "loosen the wrist and grip", I had really internalized this dangerous idea. Many video lessons encourage you to be as loose as possible in the wrist to ensure "lag".

Tension is, like most actions, relative. Some folks may have a death grip and a super tight wrist and may require some loosening. But for me, it has become clear that my wrist was such silly putty that the racket head was swinging under the ball and thus was wide open at contact. Substantially tightening up my wrist provided a much cleaner hit with a square racket face, and didn't prevent any "lag" in slo-mo videos.

Grip, I admit, is a different story and I naturally use a very loose hand grip. But when it comes to the wrist, I find that my swing works much better when the wrist is only loose in an extension direction, NOT in the deviation and supination/pronation directions. Frankly, I think "wrist lag" is a natural byproduct of racket head speed and we shouldn't even be talking about "loose wrists" at all.

My two cents!

 

[mad dog1]

What’s your level?

 

[socallefty]

It sounds like you were supinating your elbow/arm too much during your FH swing even at the contact point if your racquet was very open - that’s a different issue with what your arm was doing which is separate from wrist lag (or wrist extension). Lagging your wrist as much as possible will allow you to have hard contact with the ball without the racquet twisting in your hand even with a somewhat loose grip - otherwise, you will need too tight a grip to make hard contact with a fast swing and prevent the racquet from twisting.

It is possible to have even a slightly closed racquet at contact with a lagged wrist as happens with the ATP FH swing style as you start with a pronated arm during take back in that case. With a WTA FH style (and also 1HBH drive), you supinate your arm during the swing, but you don’t want your racquet to be too open if you want to hit with pace as opposed to a moonball-type shot or lob. So, the degree to which your racquet is open or closed at contact has to do more with how you rotate your arm than whether you are lagging or extending your wrist.

 

[golden chicken]

When athletes say "loose" or "relaxed" they don't mean turn off all muscles and fall limp on the floor. They mean that you should use only the muscles needed for the intended movement and not to use the muscles that oppose the movement. For example, if I want to extend my arm at the elbow, I would use my triceps and try not to use my biceps. A lot of people will use both and basically clench up. This feels powerful, but it is not because you are giving yourself resistance.

It's kind of like trying to drive a car with one foot on the gas and one foot on the brakes. The engine makes a lot of noise and sounds powerful, but the brakes are holding the car back.

 

[Fintft]

It sounds like you were supinating your elbow/arm too much during your FH swing even at the contact point if your racquet was very open - that’s a different issue with what your arm was doing which is separate from wrist lag. Lagging your wrist as much as possible will allow you to have hard contact with the ball without the racquet twisting in your hand even with a somewhat loose grip - otherwise, you will need too tight a grip to make hard contact with a fast swing and prevent the racquet from twisting. On the 1HBH, it is the opposite and you want wrist extension to have firm contact with a relatively loose grip.

It is possible to have even a slightly closed racquet at contact with a lagged wrist as happens with the ATP FH swing style as you start with a pronated arm during take back in that case. With a WTA FH style (and also 1HBH drive), you supinate your arm during the swing, but you don’t want your racquet to be too open if you want to hit with pace as opposed to a moonball-type shot or lob. So, the degree to which your racquet is open or closed at contact has to do more with how you rotate your arm than whether you are lagging or extending your wrist.

Ssshhhh! Don't teach him WTA style FH with supination lol
"Lagging his wrist as much as possible" is alll he needs to know!

 

[socallefty]

Ssshhhh! Don't teach him WTA style FH with supination lol
"Lagging his wrist as much as possible" is alll he needs to know!

If the racquet is too open at contact, we know which FH swing style the OP is hitting with already

 

[JMayball]

It sounds like you were supinating your elbow/arm too much during your FH swing even at the contact point if your racquet was very open - that’s a different issue with what your arm was doing which is separate from wrist lag. Lagging your wrist as much as possible will allow you to have hard contact with the ball without the racquet twisting in your hand even with a somewhat loose grip - otherwise, you will need too tight a grip to make hard contact with a fast swing and prevent the racquet from twisting. On the 1HBH, it is the opposite and you want wrist extension to have firm contact with a relatively loose grip.

It is possible to have even a slightly closed racquet at contact with a lagged wrist as happens with the ATP FH swing style as you start with a pronated arm during take back in that case. With a WTA FH style (and also 1HBH drive), you supinate your arm during the swing, but you don’t want your racquet to be too open if you want to hit with pace as opposed to a moonball-type shot or lob. So, the degree to which your racquet is open or closed at contact has to do more with how you rotate your arm than whether you are lagging or extending your wrist.

Interesting. Are you referring to internally rotating the shoulder/arm or pronating the wrist? Because you can't keep your wrist pronated if it's completely relaxed (the weight of the racket + gravity will naturally supinate a floppy wrist). That's what I was referring to in my OP when I said I have more luck actively keeping my wrist pronated instead of letting it supinate.

If you're referring to internally rotating the arm/shoulder, I haven't heard of this prior to contact. But I am a newbie.

When I look at pros swings, it typically looks like their arms are not internally rotated leading up to and during contact (shown below) so perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. It seems like Djokovic's elbow would be pointing towards the back fence if it were internally rotated.

For what it's worth, on my backswing my racket is facing the back fence so quite closed.

 

[eah123]

I think this video from Feel Tennis explains the loose vs. fixed wrist position on forehand takeback very well. Main advantage of fixed wrist being greater consistency, vs. loose wrist = more racquet head speed leading to more spin or power due to "whip" effect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfsS9JAAdMc

Given your newness to tennis, I think it makes the most sense to start with the more fixed wrist position takeback, as consistency is the most important when you start to play. As you improve, you will naturally find things like loosening the wrist to add power and spin to your shots.

 

[JMayball]

When athletes say "loose" or "relaxed" they don't mean turn off all muscles and fall limp on the floor. They mean that you should use only the muscles needed for the intended movement and not to use the muscles that oppose the movement. For example, if I want to extend my arm at the elbow, I would use my triceps and try not to use my biceps. A lot of people will use both and basically clench up. This feels powerful, but it is not because you are giving yourself resistance.

It's kind of like trying to drive a car with one foot on the gas and one foot on the brakes. The engine makes a lot of noise and sounds powerful, but the brakes are holding the car back.

This is probably where I took the "loose wrist" too literally and why it has helped me to tighten it up a bit. When someone tells me to loosen my wrist as much as possible, I let it go 100% limp and dangling, as if the racket is hanging from a string.

 

[socallefty]

Interesting. Are you referring to internally rotating the shoulder/arm or pronating the wrist? Because you can't keep your wrist pronated if it's completely relaxed (the weight of the racket + gravity will naturally supinate a floppy wrist). That's what I was referring to in my OP when I said I have more luck actively keeping my wrist pronated instead of letting it supinate.

If you're referring to internally rotating the arm/shoulder, I haven't heard of this prior to contact. But I am a newbie.

When I look at pros swings, it typically looks like their arms are not internally rotated leading up to and during contact (shown below) so perhaps I'm misunderstanding you. It seems like Djokovic's elbow would be pointing towards the back fence if it were internally rotated.

For what it's worth, on my backswing my racket is facing the back fence so quite closed.

In my experience, terms used to discuss joint rotation are:

Shoulder - internal rotation, external rotation
Elbow/Arm - pronation, supination
Wrist - Flexion, Extension, Ulnar deviation, Radial deviation

You are using terms used with one joint in biomechanics with other joints (like pronated wrist) and so, I am having trouble understanding what you mean or what you are even asking about. Maybe someone else can answer your question better.

Lagging the wrist to me means full wrist extension during the FH swing so that your racquet head looks like it is lagging behind the position of the hand or buttcap of racquet.

 

[JMayball]

In my experience, terms used to discuss joint rotation are:

Shoulder - internal rotation, external rotation
Elbow/Arm - pronation, supination
Wrist - Flexion, Extension, Ulnar deviation, Radial deviation

You are using terms used with one joint in biomechanics with other joints (like pronated wrist) and so, I am having trouble understanding what you mean or what you are even asking about. Maybe someone else can answer your question better.

Lagging the wrist to me means full wrist extension during the FH swing so that your racquet head looks like it is lagging behind the position of the hand or buttcap of racquet.

Perhaps this is where my confusion comes from with regards to this entire topic. It may be a matter of terminology. In my experience and anatomical vocabulary, there is only shoulder rotation (internal, external) and wrist flexion, extension, deviation and pronation/supination. I personally wouldn't call pronating (turning your palm towards the ground) an "arm/elbow" act, as you put it. That's a wrist motion to me. Just like all wrist motions (flexion, extension, deviation etc), it comes from the forearm muscles. That supination motion is in fact that is the exact wrist motion I had been loosening too much.

To clarify my OP, I have plenty of "lag" in my forehand, my wrist extends freely. However, a loose wrist implies that you let your forearm muscles play no role, and this naturally allows the wrist to supinate during a swing. Once I began preventing my wrist (or arm as you put it) from supinating and forced it to pronate, I saw much better results.

 

[Dragy]

Forcing pronation my be a limiting factor swinging with higher intensity: weaker forearm muscles won’t have reserves to comfortably hold the torque. To compensate for RF opening as swing progresses forward more efficient move is ISR, while forearm may stay supinated until very late “release” - hence some passive pronation into follow-through.
You don’t see much ISR before contact for players with strong grips - like Djokovic - because they are actually challenged to not have too closed RF. Players with E to SW grips are in different situation, and executing ISR into and past contact, during forward extension, is best. Going from first to second frame:

On 2nd frame forearm looks still supinated, but upper arm has rotated internally (elbow pointed down before and to the side after contact).

 

[Raul_SJ]

When I look at pros swings, it typically looks like their arms are not internally rotated leading up to and during contact (shown below)

This old thread explains that ISR occurs late in the forward swing.
--------------------------------


Approximately which frame # is the shift into ISR? After the leading of the UB and "locking" , it looks like Rafa then remains in ESR throughout most of the forward swing to contact at Frame # 45.

ISR appear to occur very late in relation to the contact frame #45. Shift to ISR just a couple of frames before contact frame #45?

Rafa forward swing to slot position. Frame 1 - Frame 27.....Slot position to contact. Frame 28 - Frame 45.

@Raul_SJ
I'm glad you did see the ISR a few frames (the arm roll is visible at #39) before contact. There's more after contact. Nadal relies on a fairly steep approach with lots of RH velocity, but he clearly does use it into contact. It is very difficult to use earlier ISR with a steep approach. Mishitting is very easy, because the timing becomes more difficult, I would think.

I think of ISR as something to do immediately into contact for its three virtues. Are you wondering "well, where's the transition, then?" Count the frames between Rafa's shoulder extension and contact. It is also about four frames. Things happen very quickly as the torso comes to face, approx., the net: The hitting arm hits the leftward part of the arc. The hitting arm at that point has to be given full power (extension, ISR) and, if your UB rotation is as fast as Nadal's or Fed's, you have four frames to do it (at your gif's speed). It clearly takes major skill and practice to bring all the elements together at that speed of swing, rotation. But then, pros have been playing for hours a day, five or six days a week, year-round, for five or six years...before they even turn pro. I'm personally slower and worse, and that's OK.

 

[vex]

Don’t think too much about your wrist IMO. If you’re uncoiling your torso and pull your arm up into contact, brushing up the ball, finishing over your shoulder... everything else kinda sorts itself

 

[JMayball]

Forcing pronation my be a limiting factor swinging with higher intensity: weaker forearm muscles won’t have reserves to comfortably hold the torque. To compensate for RF opening as swing progresses forward more efficient move is ISR, while forearm may stay supinated until very late “release” - hence some passive pronation into follow-through.
You don’t see much ISR before contact for players with strong grips - like Djokovic - because they are actually challenged to not have too closed RF. Players with E to SW grips are in different situation, and executing ISR into and past contact, during forward extension, is best. Going from first to second frame:

On 2nd frame forearm looks still supinated, but upper arm has rotated internally (elbow pointed down before and to the side after contact).

Ah yes. That makes sense. I wonder if players who use a double-bend instead of a straight arm do this ISR before contact - wouldn't that look a bit like a chicken wing with the elbow sticking back towards the fence?

I use a strong SW grip but my RF still has issues opening up if I don't keep my wrist a bit firm. The racket head also drops way down towards the ground during swing, with the buttcap pointing almost straight up to the sky (again, if I don't tighten my wrist and forearm a bit).

For me to get my racket head anywhere near to the same height as my hand (i.e. parallel to the ground), I have to apply a substantial amount of pronation of my wrist. I suppose it's possible I have an extraordinarily flexible wrist.

 

[JMayball]

It sounds like you were supinating your elbow/arm too much during your FH swing even at the contact point if your racquet was very open - that’s a different issue with what your arm was doing which is separate from wrist lag (or wrist extension). Lagging your wrist as much as possible will allow you to have hard contact with the ball without the racquet twisting in your hand even with a somewhat loose grip - otherwise, you will need too tight a grip to make hard contact with a fast swing and prevent the racquet from twisting.

It is possible to have even a slightly closed racquet at contact with a lagged wrist as happens with the ATP FH swing style as you start with a pronated arm during take back in that case. With a WTA FH style (and also 1HBH drive), you supinate your arm during the swing, but you don’t want your racquet to be too open if you want to hit with pace as opposed to a moonball-type shot or lob. So, the degree to which your racquet is open or closed at contact has to do more with how you rotate your arm than whether you are lagging or extending your wrist.

Sorry, a year later, but wanted to jump back in here and say that I think I understand better what you were saying here and I was indeed not referring to wrist lag (extension) but rather supination during the swing. In other words, when I let my arm and wrist be as loose as possible, it naturally supinates due to the weight of the racket head. Regardless of wrist extension.

Imagine letting your arm dangle freely with a racket in hand, and pulling your arm forward using just your shoulder muscles and torso rotation. Your arm naturally wants to supinate as the racket's inertia pulls back and out against the arm.

Perhaps my brain can't separate loose wrist from loose forearm because to me, the feeling of a loose wrist is the feeling of allowing the forearm to supinate freely. When I attempt to tighten my wrist as much as possible (just lock it up), I still have a crazy amount of wrist extention/lag but no longer supinate. So when people teach the loose wrist, it really throws me.

So my question is, during a forehand swing are we supposed to actively prevent this natural supination of the forearm? Again, wrist aside. Is the forearm supposed to be passive or supposed to be holding its pronated position from "pat the dog" through to contact?

 

[Digital Atheist]

So my question is, during a forehand swing are we supposed to actively prevent this natural supination of the forearm? Again, wrist aside. Is the forearm supposed to be passive or supposed to be holding its pronated position from "pat the dog" through to contact?

 

[Curious]

wrist aside. Is the forearm supposed to be passive or supposed to be holding its pronated position from "pat the dog" through to contact?

ATP fh
Pronated during take back- supinated as the forward swing starts- pronated again into follow through
WTA fh
Supinated during take back- still supinated as the forward swing starts-somewhat pronated into follow through

 

[matterer]

I'm a relative newbie and I've been struggling with my forehand for a little while. Inconsistent, sailing balls long...and it wasn't until I took some video that I noticed a possible reason for this. My wrist is way too loose.

After countless youtube lessons encouraging us to "loosen the wrist and grip", I had really internalized this dangerous idea. Many video lessons encourage you to be as loose as possible in the wrist to ensure "lag".

Tension is, like most actions, relative. Some folks may have a death grip and a super tight wrist and may require some loosening. But for me, it has become clear that my wrist was such silly putty that the racket head was swinging under the ball and thus was wide open at contact. Substantially tightening up my wrist provided a much cleaner hit with a square racket face, and didn't prevent any "lag" in slo-mo videos.

Grip, I admit, is a different story and I naturally use a very loose hand grip. But when it comes to the wrist, I find that my swing works much better when the wrist is only loose in an extension direction, NOT in the deviation and supination/pronation directions. Frankly, I think "wrist lag" is a natural byproduct of racket head speed and we shouldn't even be talking about "loose wrists" at all.

My two cents!

It may take some time for you to get the hang of staying loose but it's a lot better than giving yourself tennis elbow, which is what you're going to do.

 

[JMayball]

ATP fh
Pronated during take back- supinated as the forward swing starts- pronated again into follow through
WTA fh
Supinated during take back- still supinated as the forward swing starts-somewhat pronated into follow through

I'm only speaking about ATP forehand. Definitely not currently, or looking to, supinate during take back. If the arm is truly supposed to be fully supinated during the forward swing, then I've been doing it right this whole time and it just looks ridiculous to me.

 

[JMayball]

It may take some time for you to get the hang of staying loose but it's a lot better than giving yourself tennis elbow, which is what you're going to do.

Well it's much easier for me to stay loose but I can't hit the damn ball because my racket is upside down dragging on the ground and I'm leading with the bottom edge of the racket into contact.

Me at contact when I relax:

https://imgur.com/a/37evXKU

 

[JMayball]

It's funny, this guy keeps using the term "supinating" when he means "pronating"? I'm a bit confused. But I think he is saying precisely what I'm saying which is that if you don't actively prevent that supination, the racket head drops below the wrist before contact.

He then shows a video of Djokovic and says "turning the forearm in" (again he mistakenly says supinate when he means pronate?) and to me that is not a fully relaxed forearm. That is a forearm that is tilted slightly towards the net. A relaxed/supinated forearm tilts towards the back fence on a forehand swing, dropping the racket down towards the ground. The racket droop he's talking about only occurs, in my swing, when I let me arm invert (supinate) over itself and my arm to externally rotate.

When I fully relax, the bottom edge of my racket is the leading edge into contact and then I have to flip the racket face closed at the very end.

Furthermore, from that side angle, his elbow and wrist are basically in line with one another. Whereas, a fully relaxed arm would have the elbow in front of the wrist since the racket would be dragging the wrist backwards behind the elbow. Not the case with Djokovic's swing.

This is me supinating:

https://imgur.com/a/37evXKU

 

[Digital Atheist]

It's funny, this guy keeps using the term "supinating" when he means "pronating"?

He means supinated. When you turn the elbow in like that and the strings go from facing the ground to closer to parallel, that's supination. Pronation happens again later on. @Curious described the process above. Your supination image above is quite possibly, as he describes, a function of a loose (or dropping) the wrist and not real supination. But however you want to describe it, just try what he is suggesting because it sounds like your issue is precisely the same as the guy in the video.

 

[JMayball]

He means supinated. When you turn the elbow in like that and the strings go from facing the ground to closer to parallel, that's supination. Pronation happens again later on. @Curious described the process above. Your supination image above is quite possibly, as he describes, a function of a loose (or dropping) the wrist and not real supination. But however you want to describe it, just try what he is suggesting because it sounds like your issue is precisely the same as the guy in the video.

I’m confused I guess. When I supinate my arm, the strings don’t change open or close, down or net, but the racket head goes from lagging directly behind my wrist to lagging pointed down to the ground, well below my wrist. If you stick your arm out right now with your wrist fully extended back towards the back wall and then supinate, your fingers will be pointing to the ground yeah? The fingers represent racket handle direction with a relaxed wrist, natural lag.

https://imgur.com/a/w66IYx5

 

[Curious]

I’m confused I guess. When I supinate my arm, the strings don’t change open or close, down or net, but the racket head goes from lagging directly behind my wrist to lagging pointed down to the ground, well below my wrist. If you stick your arm out right now with your wrist fully extended back towards the back wall and then supinate, your fingers will be pointing to the ground yeah? The fingers represent racket handle direction with a relaxed wrist, natural lag.

https://imgur.com/a/w66IYx5

That’s true except it’s the forearm that supinates not the arm. And yes too much of that opens the racket face too much unless your grip is quite extreme like western or Hawaiian.

 

[JMayball]

That’s true except it’s the forearm that supinates not the arm. And yes too much of that opens the racket face too much unless your grip is quite extreme like western or Hawaiian.

Semantics aside, doesn’t this suggest one shouldn’t allow their forearm to fully supinate during the swing?
When I watch these slow motion videos of pros, they are never supinating to the point where the racket handle butt is pointing to the sky, like mine.

 

[Fintft]

It's funny, this guy keeps using the term "supinating" when he means "pronating"? I'm a bit confused. But I think he is saying precisely what I'm saying which is that if you don't actively prevent that supination, the racket head drops below the wrist before contact.

He then shows a video of Djokovic and says "turning the forearm in" (again he mistakenly says supinate when he means pronate?) and to me that is not a fully relaxed forearm. That is a forearm that is tilted slightly towards the net. A relaxed/supinated forearm tilts towards the back fence on a forehand swing, dropping the racket down towards the ground. The racket droop he's talking about only occurs, in my swing, when I let me arm invert (supinate) over itself and my arm to externally rotate.

When I fully relax, the bottom edge of my racket is the leading edge into contact and then I have to flip the racket face closed at the very end.

Furthermore, from that side angle, his elbow and wrist are basically in line with one another. Whereas, a fully relaxed arm would have the elbow in front of the wrist since the racket would be dragging the wrist backwards behind the elbow. Not the case with Djokovic's swing.

This is me supinating:

https://imgur.com/a/37evXKU

Img doesn't seem to be working.

 

[JMayball]

Img doesn't seem to be working.

Hmm working for me

 

[Dragy]

Semantics aside, doesn’t this suggest one shouldn’t allow their forearm to fully supinate during the swing?

It depends on how you pull from slot. If you accelerate mostly horizontally, racquet head won’t drop but slightly. Degree of supination will just be what it is.
If you pull very vertically, racquet head will drop lower forcing fuller supination. You can still keep RF closed though if your arm is in proper configuaration - low and more along the torso. BTW if you s arch for Nadal killing high balls (over the shoulder level), you may find instance of open racquet face through the swing

As for your pic with racquet, it’s too late into sequence for supination: when your arm is that far forward and up, it should already be ISR/release. You only let it stay supinated as you push laid back arm with torso rotation:

 

[Curious]

OP is new here. He may not know how obsessive I’m about this stuff. Supination and too open racket face used to drive me mad as well. Interestingly enough it happens only with my shadow swings. I never understood why but thought it could be due to lack of horizontal swing path/pace as @Dragy mentioned above.
( this video was about hip drive, nondominant arm pull for some nonbelievers! But you can see the open racket face at contact when you slow the video down )

 

[JMayball]

It depends on how you pull from slot. If you accelerate mostly horizontally, racquet head won’t drop but slightly. Degree of supination will just be what it is.
If you pull very vertically, racquet head will drop lower forcing fuller supination. You can still keep RF closed though if your arm is in proper configuaration - low and more along the torso. BTW if you s arch for Nadal killing high balls (over the shoulder level), you may find instance of open racquet face through the swing

As for your pic with racquet, it’s too late into sequence for supination: when your arm is that far forward and up, it should already be ISR/release. You only let it stay supinated as you push laid back arm with torso rotation:

Thanks for this reply! I think this helps answer my question - and the answer is that the relaxation/supination happens at the beginning of the sequence and i need to be releasing earlier. For whatever reason, to me this feels like tightening up my forearm into contact instead of keeping it loose.

There’s a point in the swing where the racket wants to fall to the ground due to gravity, and I usually let it. But I think I need to prevent it from doing so to a degree. Also, I do have a very very vertical swing path so that is part of it, as you said, and I tend to hit the ball way out in front of my body and low.

The other thing I do is I start my torso and shoulder rotation with the racket butt facing the back fence and I’m realizing now that the pros let the racket “flip” before or as they are starting rotation. So in my swing, the flip isn’t even done until I’m halfway through my rotation and the momentum of that flipping action really throws my racket head around and down.

 

[JMayball]

OP is new here. He may not know how obsessive I’m about this stuff. Supination and too open racket face used to drive me mad as well. Interestingly enough it happens only with my shadow swings. I never understood why but thought it could be due to lack of horizontal swing path/pace as @Dragy mentioned above.
( this video was about hip drive, nondominant arm pull for some nonbelievers! But you can see the open racket face at contact when you slow the video down )

Very interesting! I’ll have to take some video on the court.

And thanks for indulging me as I try to figure out the physics behind my swing mechanics and what’s going wrong haha.

 

[JMayball]

Thanks for this reply! I think this helps answer my question - and the answer is that the relaxation/supination happens at the beginning of the sequence and i need to be releasing earlier. For whatever reason, to me this feels like tightening up my forearm into contact instead of keeping it loose.

There’s a point in the swing where the racket wants to fall to the ground due to gravity, and I usually let it. But I think I need to prevent it from doing so to a degree. Also, I do have a very very vertical swing path so that is part of it, as you said, and I tend to hit the ball way out in front of my body and a bit low.

 

[Dragy]

Thanks for this reply! I think this helps answer my question - and the answer is that the relaxation/supination happens at the beginning of the sequence and i need to be releasing earlier. For whatever reason, to me this feels like tightening up my forearm into contact instead of keeping it loose.

There’s a point in the swing where the racket wants to fall to the ground due to gravity, and I usually let it. But I think I need to prevent it from doing so to a degree. Also, I do have a very very vertical swing path so that is part of it, as you said, and I tend to hit the ball way out in front of my body and low.

For the first part about tightening your forearm - it shouldn’t be forearm. Some coaches emphasize reaching this elbow-up/forward position as first focus early into follow-through:

The way to achieve it is to rotate whole arm coming into contact.

By the way Dominic has no pronation here: his forearm is neutral at best. If pronated, backside of the palm would face back towards him. “Release” is mostly ISR, which is near the end of range of motion on this pic.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Wow we are off in the effing weeds here. Someone start spraying some Roundup and we’ll all cash in on a lawsuit.

 

[JMayball]

OP is new here. He may not know how obsessive I’m about this stuff. Supination and too open racket face used to drive me mad as well. Interestingly enough it happens only with my shadow swings. I never understood why but thought it could be due to lack of horizontal swing path/pace as @Dragy mentioned above.
( this video was about hip drive, nondominant arm pull for some nonbelievers! But you can see the open racket face at contact when you slow the video down )

For the first part about tightening your forearm - it shouldn’t be forearm. Some coaches emphasize reaching this elbow-up/forward position as first focus early into follow-through:

The way to achieve it is to rotate whole arm coming into contact.

By the way Dominic has no pronation here: his forearm is neutral at best. If pronated, backside of the palm would face back towards him. “Release” is mostly ISR, which is near the end of range of motion on this pic.

We are definitely in the weeds for sure haha. But while we're in the weeds, let me just say this, hopefully to simplify this whole discussion...when you swing a racket towards contact with a loose wrist and a loose forearm, the racket head wants to drop to the ground. It doesn't matter how fast you are swinging, it doesn't matter what your technique is, how low-to-high your path is...none of that matters. The racket wants to fall to the ground because of physics. I prove that here with a guitar cable which represents the racket held by a loose wrist and a loose forearm. The end of this guitar cable only comes back up into the air once it has swung past the hand and thus is forced to arc around the axis of the hand. This is very much like my swing and racket path which creates an open racket face.

This is further exaggerated by the next-gen technique in which takeback involves a high elbow and strings pointed towards the back fence -- the racket must then flip vertically over the handle during the forward swing, propelling it downwards towards the ground.

As far as I know, due to physics and anatomy, there are only two ways to prevent the racket from falling to the ground and following the path of the guitar cable...#1 range of motion and #2 muscular contraction. So either your wrist, forearm and/or shoulder don't allow the racket to fully fall because of a limited range of motion (which, really just can't be the case unless you have fused joints or something)...or you are actively using muscles to prevent this from happening. I have no doubt that most people don't quite realize they are using muscles to hold their wrist, forearm firm while they swing. They may feel "fully relaxed" but they really can't be.

As Dragy said, there is a timing component as well. At some point those forearm muscles have to fire to keep the racket head from following the path of the guitar cable and I'm curious when this is supposed to happen. In my case, I do it at the last possible second before contact. But when I see slow-mos of pros, they seem to be utilizing their forearm muscles all the way from the slot through contact because I don't ever see their buttcaps pointed to the sky and their rackets never even begin down the path of the guitar cable.

P.S. a pro with a super relaxed swing path that more closely follows the guitar cable path - Jack Sock. And to effectively use that swing path, he is forced to use an extreme western grip or his racket head will be open...

And check out this side-by-side of Sock and Federer. You can see Sock is fully supinated, fully ESR'd and Federer's forearm is literally facing the net - not at all supinated. They are the same distance from point of contact in this image and Federer is not only internally rotated, he is pronating - while Sock is still fully relaxed/supinated/externally rotated.

https://imgur.com/a/71O7eCG

Okay I rest my case. I'll go back to playing actual tennis on a court and quit thinking about physics and anatomy now.