My Problem on the One Hand Backhand

[BevelDevil]

your right about pulling, but on contact it is stronger to have the palm behind the racket. you can hit harder because it is stronger.

i use the kinetic chain and well i have to because of the short backswing. sw and extreme eastern are more behind the racket so they are stronger and you can actually USE the kinetic chain to its fullest.

So check it Cheetah, I was finished playing one day and my partner and I were sitting down and this old guy hobble up and wants to play. Turns out he was a coach and messed up his knee and just wanted to hit because he was oldschool and couldnt stand to do nothing.

So we hit. But he was a coach and well couldnt stop coaching!! He coached the crap out of my partner and would say things like "take your racket back like him" (meaning shroud)...follow through like shroud, etc.

I challenged him on the prevalence of the 2 handed backhand, etc. He kept saying it can do this , and this, and this, etc. I said "I can do that", etc. and its weird but I was on the deuce side and when I was challenging him he told me to switch to the ad side because he wanted to see how my backhand would work crosscourt. He was totally silent. Remember he coached the CRAP out of my partner but was silent when it came to my backhand.

Based on your comments you would think he would have a cornucopia of coaching for me like, change the grip, use the legs, closed stance, etc, but ZERO.

Its killing me because I cant remember his name or his website. But there is a pict of him and Serena and I think he has coached at the Pro level.

I'll try to remember him and provide a link.

Don't get me wrong, but I appreciate your defending the status quo and dont blame you one bit!!

Question for you. On the forehand, the modern stroke has the leg plant off the right foot for a righthander with an open stance. Do you think you can plant off the LEFT foot for a backhand with an open stance?????

As for the pros, they probably have traditional coaches or viewpoints like yours holding them back. But IME extreme eastern is OK. I hit it and am pretty good with it. Its a bit different but I am more lethal with the SW.

As for the OP, think about it. The skill he has to hit a backhand like that with an eastern grip. Man that is amazing. If he does a SW or for starters an extreme eastern (surely that is OK with you since pros use it) he will be crushing backhands!!!!!!!! Why mess with his genius. Encourage it and let him blossom.

Also I KNOW that the SW can be awkward at first. FWIW there are plenty of posts about that on the forehand side, but I think the op can excel with this, and I DID say to go slow.

I think a lot of your assumptions or conclusions are wrong:

- You can get your palm behind the racket using just an Eastern grip. Look at Gasquet's (Eastern) backhand. His palm is totally behind the handle. Almagro's is pretty far back as well. All you have to do is rotate your palm back while keeping the index knuckle on top.

- Just because you use a mild grip doesn't mean you are using less kinetic chain. Both Wawrinka and Haas use mild Eastern grips, yet they rotate heavily into the shot. Grip simply changes how the kinetic chain will be expressed.

- There are plenty of Eastern/Mild-Eastern 1hbh'ers who hit regularly off the back foot.

- Using an extreme grip will reduce your lateral reach, as well as make low balls harder. Arguably, hitting on the rise will be harder because of the further contact point. So there's a price to pay, and whether it is worth to pay that price isn't as clear cut as you are making it.

- On the pro tour, I think there used to be more extreme grip 1hbh's around, but not so much anymore. Gasquet actually changed his grip from extreme eastern to regular eastern. So it's not a matter of "traditional" coaches holding players back. It's probably more of an evolution, possibly related to polyester strings allowing more moderate grips to produce sufficient top spin.

- I don't know of any pro who has used a SW bh grip (as opposed to EE). There's probably a good reason for it. I suspect it has something to do with the difficulties of using supination and ulnar deviation with that type of grip, in addition to the loss of reach. Whereas Eastern grippers can achieve a lot of effortless power simply by loosening up their wrist/arm.

I'm not a coach or anything but whenever my grip shifts past an eastern i notice i start arming the ball and feel i have to push with my arm.
I don't want a 'strong' feeling on contact. Strong makes me think muscle tension. I want speed.

Yeah, I think a SW grip will tend to promote a locked wrist/lower-arm, because any supination/deviation/looseness would likely send the ball into the net or ground.

On the other hand, I can see why a stiff swing is appealing to some people, since the stiffness is mechanically more simple, intuitive and easy to learn.

I know henin had an extreme grip. Was it a full sw? Idk. haven't looked lately. But she was very short.

Henin used an extreme eastern grip.

 

[JackB1]

Guys...this sw versus eastern BH grip discussion is interesting, but it has kind of taken over this thread. If you wish to continue it, please do so in a different thread. Appreciate it.

I am sticking with a eastern backhand grip. I tried sw and it felt very awkward. I would rather get my form corrected than use an extreme grip to match bad technique.

 

[Torres]

Guys...this sw versus eastern BH grip discussion is interesting, but it has kind of taken over this thread. If you wish to continue it, please do so in a different thread.

It's an open public forum. It doesn't revolve around you. Since this whole thread is full of people making suggestions in relation to the 1HB, it would seem an apt place to have a discussion on different types of grips, particularly as its in the 'Tips/Instruction' section. You might learn something. Somebody else might learn something.

 

[Maui19]

It's an open public forum. It doesn't revolve around you. Since this whole thread is full of people making suggestions in relation to the 1HB, it would seem an apt place to have a discussion on different types of grips, particularly as its in the 'Tips/Instruction' section. You might learn something. Somebody else might learn something.

With all due respect, this is a thread where a person asked for specific help with his backhand, and it devolved into a cacophony of theoretical posts about the merits of different grips. Let's help Jack out here.

 

[Torres]

With all due respect, this is a thread where a person asked for specific help with his backhand, and it devolved into a cacophony of theoretical posts about the merits of different grips. Let's help Jack out here.

With all due respect, I think he's beyond help ;-) He doesn't seem to know what is or isn't relevant to him.

Let the thread run. I like seeing things grow organically...

 

[JackB1]

With all due respect, this is a thread where a person asked for specific help with his backhand, and it devolved into a cacophony of theoretical posts about the merits of different grips. Let's help Jack out here.

Thanks Maui.
Obviously Torres doesn't understand the concept of sticking to the subject. Perhaps he doesn't need any help with his backhand, but I certainly do. I think the discussion of different grips has it's place, but I don't believe this is it. I am trying to learn the fundamentals here and extreme grips really shouldn't be part of this discussion. You wouldn't tell someone trying to learn a proper forehand to start with a western grip.

 

[Torres]

Thanks Maui.
Obviously Torres doesn't understand the concept of sticking to the subject. Perhaps he doesn't need any help with his backhand, but I certainly do. I think the discussion of different grips has it's place, but I don't believe this is it. I am trying to learn the fundamentals here and extreme grips really shouldn't be part of this discussion. You wouldn't tell someone trying to learn a proper forehand to start with a western grip.

You have a 100 different people suggesting 100 different things about the 1HB, some of which will be relevant, some of which be irrelevant and some of which will just be wrong. So what difference does it make whether people are talking about different types of grips? How do you discern from those 100 different things which things are key or fundamental or specifically relevant to you as a first stage progression?

 

[mad dog1]

You have a 100 different people suggesting 100 different things about the 1HB, some of which will be relevant, some of which be irrelevant and some of which will just be wrong. So what difference does it make whether people are talking about different types of grips? How do you discern from those 100 different things which things are key or fundamental or specifically relevant to you as a first stage progression?

we don't agree on much, but surprisingly this is a good post because it makes a lot of sense. OP will have a very difficult time thinking, analyzing, and determining what is pertinent. The link below to another thread started by OP is solid evidence supporting this.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=478278

 

[guitarplayer]

Torres is a solid 2.0. You should listen to him........

 

[JackB1]

we don't agree on much, but surprisingly this is a good post because it makes a lot of sense. OP will have a very difficult time thinking, analyzing, and determining what is pertinent. The link below to another thread started by OP is solid evidence supporting this.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=478278

I appreciate your concern, but let me worry about that.
That happens with just about every thread where you ask for help with anything. Whether its racquets or instructional. You have to pick and choose what is useful and what isn't. It comes with the territory and I can deal with it. Lots of great suggestions that have already helped me, so keep em coming! I can handle it

 

[sundaypunch]

One path towards retaining a consistent low to high swingpath on 1hbh is to start off with too much, too strong a grip, so it reinforces the need to swing low to high, just to clear the net. After that get's ingrained, you are free to wander your grip back towards eBackhand, if you so desire.

This was way back in post #5 but I think it is excellent advice. If you can't hit a good topspin 1-hander, practicing with a SW grip will force you to hit with an upward swing path and develop spin. You may decide to stick with an eastern grip but this is a good training exercise.

 

[Shroud]

You wouldn't tell someone trying to learn a proper forehand to start with a western grip.

I would if they had the swing for it and were struggling with their eastern grip! There are some great western forehands out there!!

I saw your swing and thought it could be better if you used a different grip and I suggested you give it a go. It really is a better grip IMHO for your current swing. I expect that you will probably not like it but if you try it you might just see what you can do with a SW and your particular swing and be happy.

If I misread your post and you want to learn a classic backhand well then obviously the sw is not it and I am sorry.

Though if you want to use your natural swing (which you seem to hit pretty well) then I say try the sw grip or extreme eastern...I mentioned going slow and a fraction of a bevel at a time. Only 2 posters here actually have hit with a SW; the rest is speculation.

 

[JackB1]

Shroud. I'll try it some more next time on the courts. I do appreciate all your advice.

 

[Shroud]

So, first of all, I tend to agree with cheetah. My reason is not based only on the prevalence of this coaching point of view, but from personal experience.

During my junior years, I first started with a normal eastern, but due to feeling I wasn't getting enough topspin and making too many errors long, I thought I should switch to sw, like I did for my fh. I made the switch and played like that for about a year. Essentially, I was playing with the same racket face on both sides.

So, what I can tell you right away is that it promotes more elbow use and it decreases your feel on the shot. The reason for the former is that a SW promotes a different swing path, essentially trying to promote WW on the bh. The promotin of the WW leads to excess usage of elbow, which leads to inconsistencies. If you actually maintain the conventional swing path, then you are actually making life more difficult for yourself.

Nonetheless, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, as you are saying that your bh is so good that it doesn't need coaching. So, please post video. Perhaps you have discovered some evolution of the 1hbh that we can learn from.

Hi Gs,

So glad to hear from someone who has actually played with a SW!!

Great post!

Couple of things. I agree about the elbow, but it doesnt HAVE to be that way! I wrestle with this conceptionilly My natural stroke does include the elbow. I find this advantageous as it gives me some last minute adjustment and extra spin, but see your point since it is another variable. I saw a vid by Tom Avery where he talks about keeping the arm straight and using the shoulder as the pivot, and I can absolutely hit this way. SW with WW swingpath and straight arm. Its just not natural for me yet and not sure there is an advantage. Though you might be right.

ALso I am not concluding that my backhand is so good it needs no coaching. I am not that arrogant! It could use some work, and given time I am assuming that the coach I hit with would find something to improve. Just that he didnt see anything OBVIOUS from our time together.

I can do a vid. I will at some point since playing with a 15oz racket is often disbelieved on these boards and I can include some backhands. It will happen but right now I think I can just do a side view with an iPhone and not sure that actually shows much. It would just be against the wall probably. Would that help?

Also for giving me the benefit of the doubt you sure do require some proof!

 

[Torres]

I appreciate your concern, but let me worry about that.
That happens with just about every thread where you ask for help with anything. Whether its racquets or instructional. You have to pick and choose what is useful and what isn't. It comes with the territory and I can deal with it. Lots of great suggestions that have already helped me, so keep em coming! I can handle it

Effective instruction and coaching doesn't work like that. You can't figure it out by yourself because you don't know what a correct 1HB looks like in the first place and what fundamentals need to be in place for you to progress. It's also difficult to self diagnose because you don't what the correct arm positioning, correct swing, correct contact point etc should feel like. You just know that what you're doing now doesn't work. If you pick bits and pieces but haven't, for example, got the start correct its going to cause problems later on and further difficulties in correcting it because a change at start is going to affect the rest of the stroke and there are going to be even more things that you're going to have to undo.

If you really want a solid, effective BH the best way to learn is progressively, given that you essentially have a 'clean slate' and not move on until each prior fundamental stage is correct. You really want someone to have an eyeball on you as you try and feel different components of the stroke. Picking and choosing a mish mash of random stuff from the internet because you think you can 'handle it' when you don't even have the fundamentals in place is just going to cause problems later as well as impeding development. Why do you think players who learned as kids have such a technique advantage and why do you think juniors learn so well?

 

[Shroud]

You seem like you know what you're talking about and you have some references with cred so I'm going to concede on your points and accept that what you're saying is possible. I haven't seen it personally but tennis technique evolves so maybe you are ahead of your time.

Perhaps. I hope so but maybe its an evolutionary dead end. All I can say is that the backhand is my best ground stroke easy. And thats with all the focus I have given the forehand. Ironically I could never really hit SW with the forehand and western was always better, but recently I moved to a more modern swingpath and now the SW is better on the forehand for me, mirroring the backhand.

I suppose that's a valid school of thought. For me personally when I'm hitting a good 1hbh it doesn't feel 'strong' at all, it feels 'fast and loose'. My grip is really really loose. The racquet has flung out of my hands and across the court several times if I'm playing w/ an overgrip that needs replacing. I'm not a coach or anything but whenever my grip shifts past an eastern i notice i start arming the ball and feel i have to push with my arm.
I don't want a 'strong' feeling on contact. Strong makes me think muscle tension. I want speed.

You are correct for your grip!! because the eastern is in front of the racket you need to be loose and fast or you might hurt the wrist! Its a different stroke with the sw and kind of like painting with a brush (eastern) vs. wiping a mirror with a papertowel. I THINK it is wrist flexion vs. supination. So the difference IMHO is stroking the ball vs. HITTING the ball. That is the strength I am talking about. Not muscle tension. FWIW I never had a racket go flying on me!

You're absolutely right. I was defending the status quo. I like to step in now and then to make sure ppl seeking advice are getting sound pointers in fundamentals so your sw grip comment set off a beaming red flag and i instinctively jumped on it. But as i said I'm willing to be open minded to the possibility that what you are saying can be done.

WHAT? an open mind on TT??? you are a rarity! I agree that it looks like a red flag and from orthodoxy it definitely is! I get that, but I know a sw can be hit and hit well. Thanks for being so open minded and ADULT when facing a different point of view.

I would think not because the right arm is on the opposite side of the body than the left foot. On a forehand you can plant on right foot and swing w/ right arm so they act like a unit. Not a fan of the open stance on a 1hbh.

Yep with the eastern if you have an open stance it becomes problematic.

SW is different and openstance can be done with good effect. IMHO both arms act as a unit because they are connected to the torso and if you have good rotation both arms move. Though I usually am more closed but am thinking of changing it.

I think extreme eastern is ok. It's just that once you go past that into sw territory the swing path changes considerably. And if swing path changes then other factors have to change too such as stance, rotation, contact point etc. I guess it's possible but personally i have no idea how to hit a fundamentally sound bh with a sw that's efficient, effortless, provides drive when you need it and looks pretty, which is important. I know henin had an extreme grip. Was it a full sw? Idk. haven't looked lately. But she was very short.

IMHO there are some shots where she i hitting a SW. Its really close between SW and EE for her AFAICT. But man you are so right!! Its a different shot and the normal checklists dont apply. When I look at the OP I see elements that could lend to a strong Sw or extreme eastern backhand. Anyhow I can tell you that it IS possible. Hopefully a vid will show it. I'll get one sometime and you can see what you think. I'll even hit open stance for Cheetah.

OP can definitely have a very good bh if he keeps up with the dedication and progress. Looks a lot better already. My immediate thought though is that if he goes sw then he won't have as big a pool of knowledge and insight to draw from as the pros aren't using it so there won't be a lot of video to study, coaches today aren't teaching it and the sw bh's you see here on tt are not good. no offense to you sw guys.

I agree though I think he naturally hits the way one needs to excell at the "modern" backhand. Tennis is chalk full of textbook and its chalk full of evolution and unorthodox things. Sometimes the unorthodox is potent, like Seles' 2 hands on both sides, or Macs serve motion, or Nadals strokes, etc.

Got any links for those SW backhand vids?? Be interesting to see. Never seen a vid of that.

 

[Mahboob Khan]

Sorry folks. Lately, I have been writing for the peace of the world and inter-faith harmony. There is so much insecurity, lack of peace, lack of love, and lack of common sense and I thought I must try to pump some sense into idiots who are hell bent to destroy our planet earth.

Slicing habit: It's possible that your grip is continental. Make sure that your grip is full Eastern Backhand Grip. (Base knuckle of the index finger must be on panel 1).

Just imagine that the face of the ball is a clock. You want your strings-bed to brush it up on 6-12 o'clock path.

Start with extremely low backswing and finish extremely high; let the ball go out.

As you develop confidence with 6-12 o'clock brush, turn your upper body more, up your back-swing, come down under the ball and hit it on a vertical 6-12 o'clock path.

When integrated completely your swing path will be: High-Low-High.

 

[BevelDevil]

because the eastern is in front of the racket you need to be loose and fast or you might hurt the wrist!

What's "in front" of the racket on an Eastern?

Here's Gasquet's Eastern. His palm is behind the handle. And by the definition of Eastern, his index knuckle is on top of the racket.

What definition of "Eastern" are you using?

Yep with the eastern if you have an open stance it becomes problematic.

Here's Almagro hitting off his back foot from a semi-open stance.

A lot of Eastern 1-handers are comfortable hitting from this position.

IMHO there are some shots where she i hitting a SW. Its really close between SW and EE for her AFAICT.

Henin used an extreme eastern. Here's a picture where the 8th bevel is outlined in red. Her index knuckle is between bevel 8 and the top bevel (bevel 1). Thus, she is using an extreme eastern, not a SW.

 

[TennisCJC]

This seems to have evolved a lot into grip discussion.

I think the easiest fix for Jack is to not open his shoulder so much. Front shoulder should be closed to contact like Henin and Ree-chard in pics above. Feet can be neutral or slightly closed. Transfer weight from back to front foot and swing from the core but stop the chest from opening too much. It should not open to where it almost faces the net. Hips and chest will rotate into contact but stopping the chest will speed up the arm and get contact out front. I think this is the biggest flaw in your backhand. Conti or EBH, slice or top will not matter. Close the front shoulder as you start your swing. Yes, rotate a wee bit but don't over rotate the core. I would practice stopping with your chest facing the side fence a bit more than facing the net.

 

[JackB1]

This seems to have evolved a lot into grip discussion.

I think the easiest fix for Jack is to not open his shoulder so much. Front shoulder should be closed to contact like Henin and Ree-chard in pics above. Feet can be neutral or slightly closed. Transfer weight from back to front foot and swing from the core but stop the chest from opening too much. It should not open to where it almost faces the net. Hips and chest will rotate into contact but stopping the chest will speed up the arm and get contact out front. I think this is the biggest flaw in your backhand. Conti or EBH, slice or top will not matter. Close the front shoulder as you start your swing. Yes, rotate a wee bit but don't over rotate the core. I would practice stopping with your chest facing the side fence a bit more than facing the net.

Thanks. I'll work on not opening up.

 

[pkshooter]

I think first off you should keep from turning your shoulders before your racket is all the way up. The you can worry about grip, pulling, semi open stance or whatever first things first... closed stance, don't turn your shoulders, you look like you have good timing and contact, it's just the one thing altering everything.

 

[Torres]

Thanks. I'll work on not opening up.

Yes, but the question you should be asking yourself is how you work on not opening up too early.

Effective coaching should be more about saying don't do this, don't do that. There's cause and effect going on here. Its important firstly, that you understand the specific cause and effect, and even more importantly that you know what a correct stroke feels like.

There are reasons why you're opening up too early and have a racquet path that's like a door opening.

What are they?

1.
2.
3.
4.

 

[JackB1]

Yes, but the question you should be asking yourself is how you work on not opening up too early.

Effective coaching should be more about saying don't do this, don't do that. There's cause and effect going on here. Its important firstly, that you understand the specific cause and effect, and even more importantly that you know what a correct stroke feels like.

There are reasons why you're opening up too early and have a racquet path that's like a door opening.

What are they?

I understand what you have been saying, believe me I do. I am not stupid.
I am working with a Pro right now on my backhand and hopefully he can see WHY I am opening up and work on fixing it. Personally I "think" its due to these things:
1- Not turning my shoulder enough in the backswing
2- Not dropping the racquet enough before starting the forward swing
3- Letting go of the racquet too early with my off hand
4- Incorrect footwork/balance/weight shift

 

[Shroud]

What's "in front" of the racket on an Eastern?

Here's Gasquet's Eastern. His palm is behind the handle. And by the definition of Eastern, his index knuckle is on top of the racket.

What definition of "Eastern" are you using?

Ok. You got me. I really should have said "on top". though relative to the sw the eastern is not nearly as behind the racket

Here's Almagro hitting off his back foot from a semi-open stance.

A lot of Eastern 1-handers are comfortable hitting from this position.

I was talking about the OPEN stance not the semi-open....

Are you saying Eastern is OK to be hit from an OPEN stance??

Henin used an extreme eastern. Here's a picture where the 8th bevel is outlined in red. Her index knuckle is between bevel 8 and the top bevel (bevel 1). Thus, she is using an extreme eastern, not a SW.

I had seen that. But given that EE and SW are not the far apart and camera angles can mess things up I think there can be found picts to the contrary. Is that an EE in the pict YES as far as I can tell. I am betting that sometimes she moved around.

I recall a post here were they asked a pro what grip she changes to to hit high forehands and her answer was "I dont change", but video showed clearly that she changed.

COuld be wrong but all that pict says is that in that particular shot it was EE, and add in parallax errors, and who knows.

 

[ProgressoR]

Are you saying Eastern is OK to be hit from an OPEN stance??

isn't a regular serve return (ie not chip or slice) an EBH from open stance?

 

[Torres]

I am not stupid.

I don't believe that anyone has said that...

I am working with a Pro right now on my backhand and hopefully he can see WHY I am opening up and work on fixing it. Personally I "think" its due to these things:
1- Not turning my shoulder enough in the backswing
2- Not dropping the racquet enough before starting the forward swing
3- Letting go of the racquet too early with my off hand
4- Incorrect footwork/balance/weight shift

Partly, but I don't think you've identified the key things.

 

[ProgressoR]

I don't believe that anyone has said that...



Partly, but I don't think you've identified the key things.

It all depends, for me I open too much when I dont get enough strong shoulder turn, the link is I arm it too much and try to get power from the wrong source, so for me the biggest fix is shoulder turn. MIght be similar for OP, who knows.

 

[JackB1]

I don't believe that anyone has said that...

Partly, but I don't think you've identified the key things.

OK, so are u going to share what you think they are?

 

[gregor.b]

It looks as though you are doing a couple things wrong.

First of all, you are opening up too soon. Try pointing your shoulder at the ball and keeping your arm (fairly) straight but starting the swing a little earlier.

Second, it looks like your grip may be a little too close to continental than backhand. That will make it difficult to meet the ball in front with a perpendicular racket face. Maybe try closing the grip a little.

Lastly, it looks like you are stuck in between a 'classic' backhand swing and a 'modern' backhand swing. What I mean by this is that the classic tends to stay a little more closed in the shoulders after follow through and the modern tends to open up a little more. Thing is your hips are staying closed (classic) but your shoulders are opening up all the way.

It looks a little awkward and rather painful.

Just my observations.

 

[5263]

- On the backswing, you need to turn your shoulders back more so that you are looking over your right shoulder. One reason why you are over-rotating is that you are under-rotating on the backswing.

This is what I saw as well

 

[Shroud]

isn't a regular serve return (ie not chip or slice) an EBH from open stance?

Yeah I think so, but I think that will be easier with a more extreme grip.

Pros are amazing and can hit all kind of lethal shots that are not "textbook".

A better student of the game than I can cite more examples of strokes that are not textbook, become dominant and then are copied, and eventually taught.

The game does evolve! That has been my over arching point. If you look at the forehand it has evolved from a linear stroke to a more angular one. SW and Western have come along with that for the most part. If you look at what a similar evolution would mean for the backhand I think my advice to the op might make more sense.

 

[MayDay]

I understand what you have been saying, believe me I do. I am not stupid.
I am working with a Pro right now on my backhand and hopefully he can see WHY I am opening up and work on fixing it. Personally I "think" its due to these things:
1- Not turning my shoulder enough in the backswing
2- Not dropping the racquet enough before starting the forward swing
3- Letting go of the racquet too early with my off hand
4- Incorrect footwork/balance/weight shift

JackB1 - Besides turning more in your backswing, suggestion to to not opening up: Use your left arm more on the forward swing. In your video, your left arm is pretty passive. Think about opening up your chest by also using your left arm more/earlier, not just letting your right arm doing the pulling (like pulling open a double door with both of your hands/arms.)

Other suggestions from the board is to think about pulling your shoulder blades together. This would require more action on your left arm too.

Keep your right arm/hands relaxed until when you want to "pull" the trigger on your forward swing. Use the left hand/arm to hold majority of the racket weight and set up the backswing all the way to the trigger point.

Other instruction videos that helped with same idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTQ9p5ZAKyU
(do checkout his other backhand drills and tips - this one should also help you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luJXnKy_5bs)

I like to watch this video for inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6p5ZdGR4hU (watch their left arms and how much Dimitrov throws it backward, totally opening up his chest.)

 

[mad dog1]

Yeah I think so, but I think that will be easier with a more extreme grip.

Pros are amazing and can hit all kind of lethal shots that are not "textbook".

A better student of the game than I can cite more examples of strokes that are not textbook, become dominant and then are copied, and eventually taught.

The game does evolve! That has been my over arching point. If you look at the forehand it has evolved from a linear stroke to a more angular one. SW and Western have come along with that for the most part. If you look at what a similar evolution would mean for the backhand I think my advice to the op might make more sense.

true, the game does evolve. but you're getting way too advanced for the OP. OP is still in the infant stages of learning the fundamentals of the 1hbh and you're recommending stuff that's not "textbook". this would be like trying to tell a 15 yr old kid who's just learning to drive a car that he needs to get around the corners by drifting the rear wheels. the kid doesn't even know how work the clutch and stick yet and you're telling him to drift the rear wheels. the OP needs to understand how to hit a solid "textbook" 1hbh first before experimenting with other nonconventional methods of the 1hbh.

 

[JackB1]

JackB1 - Besides turning more in your backswing, suggestion to to not opening up: Use your left arm more on the forward swing. In your video, your left arm is pretty passive. Think about opening up your chest by also using your left arm more/earlier, not just letting your right arm doing the pulling (like pulling open a double door with both of your hands/arms.)

Other suggestions from the board is to think about pulling your shoulder blades together. This would require more action on your left arm too.

Keep your right arm/hands relaxed until when you want to "pull" the trigger on your forward swing. Use the left hand/arm to hold majority of the racket weight and set up the backswing all the way to the trigger point.

Other instruction videos that helped with same idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTQ9p5ZAKyU
(do checkout his other backhand drills and tips - this one should also help you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luJXnKy_5bs)

I like to watch this video for inspiration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6p5ZdGR4hU (watch their left arms and how much Dimitrov throws it backward, totally opening up his chest.)

Thanks MD. Great stuff! Very helpful.

Guys.......I think I can get my hands on a ball machine this weekend, so I will be able to really work on my backhand. I'm excited!

 

[Torres]

I

OK, so are u going to share what you think they are?

Could do, but its not like I'm getting paid for this...

JackB1 - Besides turning more in your backswing, suggestion to to not opening up: Use your left arm more on the forward swing. In your video, your left arm is pretty passive. Think about opening up your chest by also using your left arm more/earlier, not just letting your right arm doing the pulling (like pulling open a double door with both of your hands/arms.)

The left arm is really for balance to counter act the forward motion of the swing and weight transfer. You can be still be actively using your left arm but still open up too early and be hitting outside in. There's also no point IMO in him replicating a motion at this stage just for the sake of replicating a motion. There are other things he needs to learn first IMO.....

 

[MayDay]

Could do, but its not like I'm getting paid for this...



The left arm is really for balance to counter act the forward motion of the swing and weight transfer. You can be still be actively using your left arm but still open up too early and be hitting outside in. There's also no point IMO in him replicating a motion at this stage just for the sake of replicating a motion.

You are right Torres. It might be too much information/todo for JackB1 at this stage, but I think the linked video containing the drill/tip gives good basic visualization to JackB1 for comparison purposes. You never know, he might "get it" relatively fast as he rebuilds/adjust his backhand with all the informaiton provided in this thread.

 

[JackB1]

Could do, but its not like I'm getting paid for this...

really??? :shock:

so why then are u here? just to let me know how bad my backhand is?

what a guy
:razz:

 

[JackB1]

You are right Torres. It might be too much information/todo for JackB1 at this stage, but I think the linked video containing the drill/tip gives good basic visualization to JackB1 for comparison purposes. You never know, he might "get it" relatively fast as he rebuilds/adjust his backhand with all the informaiton provided in this thread.

MD...those are 2 very applicable drills for me to try. The left arm does act as a counterbalance and will make it harder to swing my body open. I just tried opening up on purpose...once without using the left arm and once with and it definitely helps for sure.

The other drill is good to ingrain the proper 1st part of the swingplane so that it goes more straight up and THEN around.

thanks.

 

[Torres]

so why then are u here? just to let me know how bad my backhand is?

To be honest, I'm more interested in seeing how effective different ways of learning are. You've been given a lot of different information and I could be wrong but I think that makes things more difficult than a progressive system where you're concentrating on the start, learning that properly before moving on to the next step etc.

I am curious though in seeing how you do based on a lot of different information being presented to you but you without necessarily having a clear focus on what's key and how one step fits into the next step and so on and so on.

If you're still struggling in a few weeks time having practised whatever it is you intend to practise, then post back, and I'll chip in with what I think you should focus on.

I will make a suggestion in the meantime though. I think the way that you're doing those self feeds is a waste of time because the entire motion is too rushed. You're throwing the ball, then having to put your hand back on the throat, then having to find your grip, then doing a unit turn, then getting into the start position, then stepping forward and beginning your swing etc. I don't think there's enough time for all of that before the ball drops and it makes the entire motion too rushed. There's a danger that it leads to bad form because you're being forced to rush.

If you must do a self feed, you'd be better off throwing the ball when you've already found your grip and have already done the unit turn, or better still have someone hand feed you or have the ball machine replicate a hand feed.

 

[JackB1]

^^^

I don't plan on doing more drop feeds. That was to demonstrate how much my swing path improved from the first video. I am getting a ball machine this weekend so I will better able to practice and I will start slowly as u suggest.

 

[ProgressoR]

I

Could do, but its not like I'm getting paid for this...



The left arm is really for balance to counter act the forward motion of the swing and weight transfer. You can be still be actively using your left arm but still open up too early and be hitting outside in. There's also no point IMO in him replicating a motion at this stage just for the sake of replicating a motion. There are other things he needs to learn first IMO.....

I have to disagree here, the OP needs to find ways to prevent opening up. This might help, and once he gets used to not opening up, its fair to say then he can use the left arm as much or as little as he wants. In my view it is worth trying for OP and seeing if this helps or not.

 

[Torres]

I have to disagree here, the OP needs to find ways to prevent opening up. This might help, and once he gets used to not opening up, its fair to say then he can use the left arm as much or as little as he wants. In my view it is worth trying for OP and seeing if this helps or not.

In my view there are very obvious reasons why he is opening up in the way that he is, none of which have anything to do with whether or not he is using the left arm to balance. The racquet path isn't dependent on the left arm coming out.

 

[Torres]

I don't plan on doing more drop feeds. That was to demonstrate how much my swing path improved from the first video.

Of itself it isn't really illustrative of anything because hitting a stationary ball that you can control is very different to having to position yourself relative to a moving ball. A self feed can be useful though.

 

[JackB1]

In my view there are very obvious reasons why he is opening up in the way that he is, none of which have anything to do with whether or not he is using the left arm to balance. The racquet path isn't dependent on the left arm coming out.

If it's so obvious, why can't anyone but yourself figure out what it is???

 

[ProgressoR]

If it's so obvious, why can't anyone but yourself figure out what it is???

I would be very surprised if torres suggests something that has not been mentioned already....

I think he just likes the attention

 

[Avles]

Jack, this might sound wacky, but at some point you could try hitting some backhands while standing on one foot (the front foot of course). You might find that this improves your balance and encourages you to open up less.

I'm far from an expert (and my BH is a definite work in progress) but I find that doing some one-foot practice seems to tighten up my strokes on both wings.

Also, maybe work more on shadow swinging without the ball, or slowing down the feed. It looked like you were rushed/crowded on some of those ball machine feeds, and this might be part of the reason behind the "diagonal across the body" swing path you mention in the OP (and part of the reason that your drop feeds look better).

 

[Shroud]

true, the game does evolve. but you're getting way too advanced for the OP. OP is still in the infant stages of learning the fundamentals of the 1hbh and you're recommending stuff that's not "textbook". this would be like trying to tell a 15 yr old kid who's just learning to drive a car that he needs to get around the corners by drifting the rear wheels. the kid doesn't even know how work the clutch and stick yet and you're telling him to drift the rear wheels. the OP needs to understand how to hit a solid "textbook" 1hbh first before experimenting with other nonconventional methods of the 1hbh.

You are right of course given your analogy.

Though he is working with a coach who I assume is providing all that "textbook" stuff but the OP is here asking for advice. Based on what I saw and how he was hitting I thought he might be better off with a more extreme grip.

Maybe I misunderstood his post but I gave him what I thought was the best advice for what he was doing. IMHO a bunch of coaching is negative and defeating. Don't do this, change this, turn more, etc. Maybe I read that inner game too closely but I think his BODY can figure it out and was doing a good job of hitting the ball given all the flaws. Based on the EXISTING swing I thought a grip change would help.

 

[Torres]

If it's so obvious, why can't anyone but yourself figure out what it is???

Any half decent coach will be able to spot this. It's not as if there's anything that you're doing which hasn't been seen before.

 

[JackB1]

Jack, this might sound wacky, but at some point you could try hitting some backhands while standing on one foot (the front foot of course). You might find that this improves your balance and encourages you to open up less.

I'm far from an expert (and my BH is a definite work in progress) but I find that doing some one-foot practice seems to tighten up my strokes on both wings.

Also, maybe work more on shadow swinging without the ball, or slowing down the feed. It looked like you were rushed/crowded on some of those ball machine feeds, and this might be part of the reason behind the "diagonal across the body" swing path you mention in the OP (and part of the reason that your drop feeds look better).

good suggestions. I'll try the front foot thing.

 

[JackB1]

Any half decent coach will be able to spot this. It's not as if there's anything that you're doing which hasn't been seen before.

It's obvious to me, that my faulty swingpath is causing an outside to inside forward swingpath and that is pulling my shoulders open. I need more of a inside-out forward swingpath to the ball.

Last night I really exagerated getting the racquet back behind me to where it was parallel to the baseline and behind my back...strectching my front shoulder as much as I comfortably could and then letting go and dropping the racquet down below my left pocket before the forward swing. This sets things up much better to come from below the ball ans swing low to high without pulling accross my body.

I am getting a ball maching this weekend, so I will be able to practice this a lot more with slower feeds.