My slice vs Roger’s

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Are you big on home improvement? I always love it when it's done but equally hate to plan and go through it! :) It's not the money issue since it's planned ahead but I'm always the one doing a lot of thinking and the work.

Is sun room really compatible with tennis? My sister's sun room got partly destroyed by the kid's football activities.
Sunroom has a treadmill, tennis stuff, fat tire bike, inclined bench ... wife had plans for wicker couch reading room ... lucky to still be married. :p

Sorry @Curious ... back to your slice. (y)
 

Dou

Semi-Pro
shadow doesn't mean anything... need to get on the court and see how the ball flies.

grip pressure looks too tight, can see your white knuckles lol.
 

ubercat

Semi-Pro
1 drill I do with self feeds or off the wall is hit 2 CC topspin BHs and then alternate.

- drive slice DTL
- drop shot DTL

I like this drill because I'm practicing:

1. Hitting quality CC BHs which sometimes will win me a weaker reply

2. By varying the height of my self or wall feed I can simulate a weak reply or a high looped reply

3. I'm practicing a real combination I would use in a match

4. I'm practicing my slice touch (which is the one that may interest you)

5. I'm practicing sometimes drawing an opponent to the net which you will need against certain types of players eg mobile pusher

BTW one of the legends here taught me that you can simulate spin off the wall. If you slice into the wall at comes back as topspin and vica versa
 

Curious

Legend
NOBODY on this forum should have a variable racquet face angle through the forward stroke of a slice backhand ... ... ... from behind the ear ... down to contact ... and to follow through. Aside from a SLIGHT lowering of the arm from the shoulder prior to contact ...
Totally agree.
If I understood you correctly, you mean a simple and clean technique with minimum variables, right? Does Murray’s slice fit your description? He doesn’t do anything fancy apart from the small internal shoulder rotation/pronation at the beginning of the forward swing.



 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Totally agree.
If I understood you correctly, you mean a simple and clean technique with minimum variables, right? Does Murray’s slice fit your description? He doesn’t do anything fancy apart from the small internal shoulder rotation/pronation at the beginning of the forward swing.



You are going to open your 1hbh slice rf more at contact on a low ball than a high one ... and none of us have a clue how open we just hit it. It's a feel, learned action facing a variety of balls in different situations. I also think we vary high to low swing path depending on shot we are trying to hit (this includes 4.0s). I would think our best chance for "always the same" might be our open racquet face in the back swing, but even there I doubt we do that on the very high balls. I would say maybe a consistent back swing length and vary follow through length depending on shot ... but you often abbreviate everything on ros ... not to mention hit that open stance sometimes.

I've noticed on some very low balls, the swing has to change to help add loft (more open rf not enough), and you hit more of the side spin coach Steven mentioned in the video above.

Put rh behind your head with a continental grip and then become French (artist). 8-B
 
I’m in a little obsessive mode regarding slice technique last few days. Is there any major difference in terms of basic features of the motion in general or am I pretty much doing the same thing as him?
What I’m concerned about is the type of take back and the change in racket face orientation during the forward swing up to contact. Especially the use of pronation/supination and ESR.


If you view the videos frame by frame as they appear in the thread and compare:

1) For slice, you have more uppermost body turn leading to impact than Federer or Gasquet. Others?
2) At impact Federer's racket head is above his wrist, but yours is below the wrist. That is often recommended for the volley but I don't know about the slice backand.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
If you view the videos frame by frame as they appear in the thread and compare:

1) For slice, you have more uppermost body turn leading to impact than Federer or Gasquet. Others?
2) At impact Federer's racket head is above his wrist, but yours is below the wrist. That is often recommended for the volley but I don't know about the slice backand.
I think that is a good observation. I didn't watch all of the following, but it looks like even on pretty low balls ... rh barely goes below hand (check the one @01:15), and anything up in strike zone rh above hand like you said.

Edit: 01:36 quite a bit lower



Two at 00;18 and 00;30 ... Curious frame that first one and put it on the wall in that cool room ... check out the sweet spot of the racquet ... SWEET!!!


 
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bostontennis

New User
depending on levels, techniques can vary.

slice is not practiced as much as top spin drive in modern tennis. so i would suggest to start with simple technique first several years. that said, you want to simply variables. The effect on balls are determined on racquet face and racquet head speed. It's better to simplify racquet path by keep the firm grip, hinge on shoulder and just adjust on steepness of the path.

Federer's technique, IMO, is very advanced, and not needed in under 5.0 level.
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
Good Aussie slices: I almost forgot Ash Barty! Possibly the best female BH slice on the tour right now... Takeback somewhere in between Graf and Fed.

And Barty's slice is also very consistent, check out the point at 0:53 for example:

 

Mountain Ghost

Semi-Pro
Totally agree.
If I understood you correctly, you mean a simple and clean technique with minimum variables, right? Does Murray’s slice fit your description? He doesn’t do anything fancy apart from the small internahil shoulder rotation/pronation at the beginning of the forward swing.
What I don't like about his slice is how he flattens the racquet face at his racquet-back position ... and then changes it to vertical at contact ... which is not at all what I'm talking about. Federer is very close to what I'm saying ... though even HE changes it a little bit just after he starts coming forward. At any but the very TOP levels of the game ... there should be NO fluctuation in the racquet face angle ... ... ... NONE ... until you're very advanced ... or as "supernatural" as your role-model pros are ~ MG
 

Curious

Legend
What I don't like about his slice is how he flattens the racquet face at his racquet-back position ... and then changes it to vertical at contact ... which is not at all what I'm talking about. Federer is very close to what I'm saying ... though even HE changes it a little bit just after he starts coming forward. At any but the very TOP levels of the game ... there should be NO fluctuation in the racquet face angle ... ... ... NONE ... until you're very advanced ... or as "supernatural" as your role-model pros are ~ MG
Do you mean the racket face angle staying the same all the way from the beginning of the forward/downward swing to the contact? Any examples in a video?
 

Curious

Legend
Yes ... too much supernatural timing and "gymnastics" skill required ~ MG
Interesting. Means you need to remove all forearm and shoulder rotation from the swing. It makes perfect sense in theory. I wonder if it can be put into practice though.
I will definitely give that a try.
Lift it up, bring it down and with no rotation involved.
 
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navigator

Hall of Fame
Wow... one of the few technique topics I actually know a little about. Don't overthink it: (1) get your racquet back early, (2) get your shoulders around, and (3) get your body moving forward as you strike the ball as if you're coming to net. All of the other stuff - grip, etc - is personal preference.

regular speed:


slow-mo:


I didn't have to come in on this shot but I hit it better than I thought I had and just continued to follow it in. I hit a lot of slices the same way where I take a couple of steps forward but I stay back (unfortunately I don't hit them all this well). The point is, as often as possible you want to hit that slice as if it's going to be an approach shot even when it's not one - you want to get your body into it. (Kind of like the first serve - you want to toss the ball well into the court as if you're going to S&V even when you're not.) Obviously for defensive slices this doesn't apply. But when it's a neutral ball or worse you want to be moving forward when you strike it.

That might be the extent of my technical expertise.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
though even HE changes it a little bit just after he starts coming forward.
Consider that we pull racquet handle forward, it’s natural for any decently weighted racquet head to lag at least some. Can be avoided either with very firm grip or with very steep downward swing.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Wow... one of the few technique topics I actually know a little about. Don't overthink it: (1) get your racquet back early, (2) get your shoulders around, and (3) get your body moving forward as you strike the ball as if you're coming to net. All of the other stuff - grip, etc - is personal preference.

regular speed:


slow-mo:


I didn't have to come in on this shot but I hit it better than I thought I had and just continued to follow it in. I hit a lot of slices the same way where I take a couple of steps forward but I stay back (unfortunately I don't hit them all this well). The point is, as often as possible you want to hit that slice as if it's going to be an approach shot even when it's not one - you want to get your body into it. (Kind of like the first serve - you want to toss the ball well into the court as if you're going to S&V even when you're not.) Obviously for defensive slices this doesn't apply. But when it's a neutral ball or worse you want to be moving forward when you strike it.

That might be the extent of my technical expertise.
Admit it ... that felt good. 8-B
 

Mountain Ghost

Semi-Pro
@Mountain Ghost ,

Is this close to what you were trying to explain?
Eliminated both forearm and shoulder rotation for simplicity and to minimise excessive changes of racket face angle during the swing.


You are taking your elbow too far back ... and then it's having to come forward as the first and primary movement of the stroke ... ... ... when the ELBOW should be more in front at racquet-back position ... remain relatively high (arm pit level) and stationary at the start ... and the elbow's EXTENSION from 90 degrees to straight is the primary acceleration ... ... ... then the arm comes down and across. As you shadow swing ... don't even follow through across. Stop your racquet head at contact ... (firm grip and wrist) ... where it doesn't go below handle level. You also need a large mirror behind where your camera is ... so you can watch yourself from the side ... and then from the front ... as you do this ~ MG
 

Curious

Legend
You are taking your elbow too far back ... and then it's having to come forward as the first and primary movement of the stroke ... ... ... when the ELBOW should be more in front at racquet-back position ... remain relatively high (arm pit level) and stationary at the start ... and the elbow's EXTENSION from 90 degrees to straight is the primary acceleration ... ... ... then the arm comes down and across. As you shadow swing ... don't even follow through across. Stop your racquet head at contact ... (firm grip and wrist) ... where it doesn't go below handle level. You also need a large mirror behind where your camera is ... so you can watch yourself from the side ... and then from the front ... as you do this ~ MG
Am I getting there?

 

Dim Sim

Rookie
You are late in initiating the takeback and unit turn and consequently late at contact - this coupled with most of your weight rotating in a circle rather than stepping into the ball is robbing you of significant power/ball speed. Set up earlier and contact the ball further in front - step into the ball and complete the follow through more fully (as an effect of accelerating more quickly into the ball). The ball should really fizz off the strings.
 

Curious

Legend
You are late in initiating the takeback and unit turn and consequently late at contact - this coupled with most of your weight rotating in a circle rather than stepping into the ball is robbing you of significant power/ball speed. Set up earlier and contact the ball further in front - step into the ball and complete the follow through more fully (as an effect of accelerating more quickly into the ball). The ball should really fizz off the strings.
On the slice I strongly believe in the significance of a quick punching motion of the racket into the ball instead of a full long swing, unlike the other groundstrokes . In that regard a backhand slice is very much like a volley.
And I had noticed this even before I watched this video of the master. Note how many times he says “punch”!!


 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
On the slice I strongly believe in the significance of a quick punching motion of the racket into the ball instead of a full long swing, unlike the other groundstrokes . In that regard a backhand slice is very much like a volley.
And I had noticed this even before I watched this video of the master. Note how many times he says “punch”!!


I think I saw a velociraptor in your backyard.

Follow through length will vary ... not the same for low short shot vs cc deep into the corner. Fed punches but does NOT:

STOP SHORT :p

 

Curious

Legend
I think I saw a velociraptor in your backyard.

Follow through length will vary ... not the same for low short shot vs cc deep into the corner. Fed punches but does NOT:

STOP SHORT :p

I feel like he puts the brakes on once the ball is hit. Fast short punching motion. I have first hand experience that it works very well.
 

Curious

Legend
@ByeByePoly
Don’t you think he has a tiny follow through considering the huge speed of the racket head into the ball? How can this enormous slow down be explained otherwise?
Bruce Lee’s one inch punch comes to mind!


 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I feel like he puts the brakes on once the ball is hit. Fast short punching motion. I have first hand experience that it works very well.
@ByeByePoly
Don’t you think he has a tiny follow through considering the huge speed of the racket head into the ball? How can this enormous slow down be explained otherwise?
Bruce Lee’s one inch punch comes to mind!


Just don't do any braking before contact ... your shadow swing in last video seems to introduce risk you are NOT free flowing at contact. After ball is gone ... ball is gone. 8-B When I looked at my slice video, I was surprised at the variation of follow through. It's because of big variations in rhs imo ... for me much greater rhs for cc deep to corner say vs short low punch dtl shallow near service line.

You don't need to think about all of that ... it just happens with shot variation. Good slice variation in rec tennis can win a lot of matches, not many 40+ players love running to short wide slice. That same short wide slice will get you killed in pro tennis.
 

Curious

Legend
Just don't do any braking before contact ... your shadow swing in last video seems to introduce risk you are NOT free flowing at contact. After ball is gone ... ball is gone. 8-B When I looked at my slice video, I was surprised at the variation of follow through. It's because of big variations in rhs imo ... for me much greater rhs for cc deep to corner say vs short low punch dtl shallow near service line.

You don't need to think about all of that ... it just happens with shot variation. Good slice variation in rec tennis can win a lot of matches, not many 40+ players love running to short wide slice. That same short wide slice will get you killed in pro tennis.
I was just trying to do what @Mountain Ghost wanted to see (stop at contact). Of course I don’t normally try to stop but definitely a fast punching motion into the contact only, then slow down.
If we had that incredibly fast punching that Roger does and somehow did not decelerate right after contact our arm would fly off and land in the back fence!!
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I was just trying to do what @Mountain Ghost wanted to see (stop at contact). Of course I don’t normally try to stop but definitely a fast punching motion into the contact only, then slow down.
If we had that incredibly fast punching that Roger does and somehow did not decelerate right after contact our arm would fly off and land in the back fence!!
It just hit me that the amount of spin is a huge factor in follow through length for me. I just looked at my drop shot (which is really just a variation of slice), and it cracked me up how much follow through length varied even on a drop shot. My go to drop shot is more of a low, low spin knuckleball shot ... and a stick the follow through short like your video. I "can" hit the dropper with a higher arc and a lot of backspin, and I was hitting some in this video. My follow through was every bit as long as a cc slice to a corner.

I still think that would be a good ball machine drill for you ... alternate slice and dropper for the entire hopper. It also breaks up the ball machine monotony. At one point I was hitting 1hbh followed by 1hbh slice followed by drop shot ... rinse and repeat for entire hopper. Fun actually. I hit all of those continental so no grip change for me ... seems it would be an even better drill for someone who changes grip from 1hbh to 1hbh slice.
 

user92626

Legend
Yesterday me and my opponent were exchanging hard shots left and right, forward and back, then I did a knifing slice where the ball barely skid over the net and dropped down like lead, catching my opponent off guard who was at the baseline.

It was really good. I had to remember it to share with you guys. I vaguely remember I did the hand thing that Curious does in his video. Good stuff!
 
Sure but how do you think that huge racket speed results in a relatively tiny follow through? Any idea?
Yes. He is braking by imaging he is hammering a nail with the racquet face into a wall. I use this shot against young opponents very effectively as the resulting ball skids low and mean, taxing their extreme grips


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Awesome! I actually thought about this analogy before. The whole focus is up until you hit the nail, in a way. After the Bruce Lee one inch punch, this was just great, thanks.
Glad to help. This analogy was shared with me many, many years ago by your Aussie Mate, The Firey One himself, Fred Stolle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

Dim Sim

Rookie
On the slice I strongly believe in the significance of a quick punching motion of the racket into the ball instead of a full long swing, unlike the other groundstrokes . In that regard a backhand slice is very much like a volley.
And I had noticed this even before I watched this video of the master. Note how many times he says “punch”
For moi that’s a function of racket face angle through the stroke and that you are not hitting quite as hard as a topspin shot. It feels more like a punch than a looping parabola. In your shadow swings you look to be truncating your shot too early, which will bugger up your timing and rhythm. Have you had any lessons with a pro about it? An hour or so would sort you out.
 

Curious

Legend
For moi that’s a function of racket face angle through the stroke and that you are not hitting quite as hard as a topspin shot. It feels more like a punch than a looping parabola. In your shadow swings you look to be truncating your shot too early, which will bugger up your timing and rhythm. Have you had any lessons with a pro about it? An hour or so would sort you out.
Yeah, agree. Will work on early finishing of rotation, ideally by contact point and also getting racket acceleration by elbow extension as Federer mentions in the video.
 
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