My Wife's UTR is Plummeting!

sovertennis

Professional
My wife plays almost entirely singles in 4.0 18+ and 40+ USTA leagues, and she wins about 4 of 5 matches. (Other captains often put a 3.5 player against her). Last year, due to Covid, she played only one match before the USTA (Southern in upstate SC) abandoned the season. Going into this season her UTR rating was 5.7. So far, she's won 2 of 3 singles matches and lost one dubs match. Nonetheless, her UTR has fallen to 2.0. I'm guessing this is because UTR calculates, among other factors, matches over the past 12 months and apparently has not modified their algorithm to account for a lack of matches in 2020 due to the pandemic (which I understand). Obviously, this is a clear first-world problem which does not concern her too much. Has anyone else experienced this? Curious to hear comments.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
My wife plays almost entirely singles in 4.0 18+ and 40+ USTA leagues, and she wins about 4 of 5 matches. (Other captains often put a 3.5 player against her). Last year, due to Covid, she played only one match before the USTA (Southern in upstate SC) abandoned the season. Going into this season her UTR rating was 5.7. So far, she's won 2 of 3 singles matches and lost one dubs match. Nonetheless, her UTR has fallen to 2.0. I'm guessing this is because UTR calculates, among other factors, matches over the past 12 months and apparently has not modified their algorithm to account for a lack of matches in 2020 due to the pandemic (which I understand). Obviously, this is a clear first-world problem which does not concern her too much. Has anyone else experienced this? Curious to hear comments.
Welcome to women's UTR mangling!!

In our section, UTR did some odd manual adjustments over the past 60 or so days that dropped just about every female 3.5 - 4.5 by roughly 2.0 UTR

I am a decent 3.5, I also play up on 4.0.

Unlike your wife, I played 30+ rated matches in 2020 as our area did not shut down league.

Began 2021 with a 4, before matches started, it rose to a 5.XX (mid 5) and then over the period of a few weeks it went back and forth between 2 and 5 randomly ... almost every other day it would jump or fall for no apparent reason. (no new matches coming in, no old matches dropping off). Then settled at high 3.
Watched all the women's ratings do the same thing ..... while the men's all rose 1-2 points.

It has now been steady for about a month.

Here are the basics for my area:
3.0NTRP: Women: UTRs 2s some 3s Men: Mostly 3s some 4s
3.5NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 2s, rare 4s Men: Mostly 5s some 6s
4.0NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 4s rare 5s Men: Mostly 6s some 7s

The men's UTRs are mostly stratified when compared to different NTRPs
Women's are not as they have bunched us all into only a couple ratings. You can have a UTR 3 with a 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0C NTRP ... which is ridiculous.

Also to note: Women who play mixed have higher UTRs than women who may actually have a higher NTRP but don't play mixed. Mixed can inflate a woman's rating ... by a lot.
 

Purestriker

Rookie
My wife plays almost entirely singles in 4.0 18+ and 40+ USTA leagues, and she wins about 4 of 5 matches. (Other captains often put a 3.5 player against her). Last year, due to Covid, she played only one match before the USTA (Southern in upstate SC) abandoned the season. Going into this season her UTR rating was 5.7. So far, she's won 2 of 3 singles matches and lost one dubs match. Nonetheless, her UTR has fallen to 2.0. I'm guessing this is because UTR calculates, among other factors, matches over the past 12 months and apparently has not modified their algorithm to account for a lack of matches in 2020 due to the pandemic (which I understand). Obviously, this is a clear first-world problem which does not concern her too much. Has anyone else experienced this? Curious to hear comments.
Are you looking at the verified rating or the one on her home page?
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
My wife plays almost entirely singles in 4.0 18+ and 40+ USTA leagues, and she wins about 4 of 5 matches. (Other captains often put a 3.5 player against her). Last year, due to Covid, she played only one match before the USTA (Southern in upstate SC) abandoned the season. Going into this season her UTR rating was 5.7. So far, she's won 2 of 3 singles matches and lost one dubs match. Nonetheless, her UTR has fallen to 2.0. I'm guessing this is because UTR calculates, among other factors, matches over the past 12 months and apparently has not modified their algorithm to account for a lack of matches in 2020 due to the pandemic (which I understand). Obviously, this is a clear first-world problem which does not concern her too much. Has anyone else experienced this? Curious to hear comments.

Almost verbatim what happened to me in the last part of last year and starting this year. I was rated 5.5, played just a few 4.0 competitive singels matches I lost, but were split sets for the most part. My current singles UTR is also 2. I assume it has to do with my past singles matches being older or maybe dropping off, but still a 2? Really?
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Supposedly men’s 4.5 should start around UTR 6 according to Essential Tennis, but this is clearly inconsistent by geographic area.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Are you looking at the verified rating or the one on her home page?
She says it's the rating on the home page. Perhaps she has not played enough matches over the past 12 mos to get a verified rating? As well, she has the "free" version of UTR--not sure if a verified rating is only for those who pay for UTR.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Almost verbatim what happened to me in the last part of last year and starting this year. I was rated 5.5, played just a few 4.0 competitive singels matches I lost, but were split sets for the most part. My current singles UTR is also 2. I assume it has to do with my past singles matches being older or maybe dropping off, but still a 2? Really?
I feel your pain, brother and have advised my wife that her UTR needs to get back above 4 or I'll have some decisions to make.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Welcome to women's UTR mangling!!

In our section, UTR did some odd manual adjustments over the past 60 or so days that dropped just about every female 3.5 - 4.5 by roughly 2.0 UTR

I am a decent 3.5, I also play up on 4.0.

Unlike your wife, I played 30+ rated matches in 2020 as our area did not shut down league.

Began 2021 with a 4, before matches started, it rose to a 5.XX (mid 5) and then over the period of a few weeks it went back and forth between 2 and 5 randomly ... almost every other day it would jump or fall for no apparent reason. (no new matches coming in, no old matches dropping off). Then settled at high 3.
Watched all the women's ratings do the same thing ..... while the men's all rose 1-2 points.

It has now been steady for about a month.

Here are the basics for my area:
3.0NTRP: Women: UTRs 2s some 3s Men: Mostly 3s some 4s
3.5NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 2s, rare 4s Men: Mostly 5s some 6s
4.0NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 4s rare 5s Men: Mostly 6s some 7s

The men's UTRs are mostly stratified when compared to different NTRPs
Women's are not as they have bunched us all into only a couple ratings. You can have a UTR 3 with a 3.0, 3.5 and 4.0C NTRP ... which is ridiculous.

Also to note: Women who play mixed have higher UTRs than women who may actually have a higher NTRP but don't play mixed. Mixed can inflate a woman's rating ... by a lot.
"Mangling" indeed. Thanks for the informative comment, OTL.
 

Purestriker

Rookie
She says it's the rating on the home page. Perhaps she has not played enough matches over the past 12 mos to get a verified rating? As well, she has the "free" version of UTR--not sure if a verified rating is only for those who pay for UTR.
OK, you can still get your verified rating as long as you have enough results, it is located under your profile. If you don't have enough results, then the projected is all you can get. The difference is usually non-rated players are included in projected and they are excluded in the verified rating. The only thing the pro version does is give you the rating out two decimal points.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Just checked, my verified is just 5.15 now, but I suppose that is having big wins of lower UTR rated players lately. I need to play up again.
 
I experienced the opposite problem: my UTR skyrocketed by 200 points without me playing at all. I can only attribute it to the algorithm getting funky when there are only a few matches in the last 12 months.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
I experienced the opposite problem: my UTR skyrocketed by 200 points without me playing at all. I can only attribute it to the algorithm getting funky when there are only a few matches in the last 12 months.
No I am pretty certain UTR fussed manually with their numbers. This was not an organic move. Adult women almost all went down. Adult men almost all went up. All in a 2 week period where everything was chaotically moving daily until stabilizing.
 
No I am pretty certain UTR fussed manually with their numbers. This was not an organic move. Adult women almost all went down. Adult men almost all went up. All in a 2 week period where everything was chaotically moving daily until stabilizing.
I would so get double-bagelled if I played someone at my current UTR.
 

sovertennis

Professional
No I am pretty certain UTR fussed manually with their numbers. This was not an organic move. Adult women almost all went down. Adult men almost all went up. All in a 2 week period where everything was chaotically moving daily until stabilizing.
So, UTR is the Gamestop of the tennis rating world?
 

texrunner

New User
This is why a lot of juniors are hesitant to play adult opens. My daughter is about an 8 utr and we’ve seen firsthand some ladies whose ntrp rating is a 5 but have about a 5-6 utr. In my opinion utr has done a huge disservice to tennis because people skip out on matchplay for this very reason.
 

jdawgg

Rookie
I think my UTR was around an 8-9 and it dropped to a 6.

A lot of match history fell off the books so to speak. It was also missing a lot of my match history.

I saw a UTR tournament that said 6 was around the 4.0 level. If I entered that tournament I'm pretty sure the scorelines would be all 6-0, 6-0 or close to that. I've won two 4.5 tournaments without dropping a set. Hard to see myself wasting all that time to get my UTR up to a level where I'll actually have competition.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Lordy, you scared me into checking mine, I'm male, mine dropped almost 2 points the past 9 months with no matches played in singles that were recorded for USTA or UTR, just a bunch of doubles matches. I'm going to have to methodically destroy opponents out of level again just to get it to where it should be, so tedious and uncomfortable.
 
Lordy, you scared me into checking mine, I'm male, mine dropped almost 2 points the past 9 months with no matches played in singles that were recorded for USTA or UTR, just a bunch of doubles matches. I'm going to have to methodically destroy opponents out of level again just to get it to where it should be, so tedious and uncomfortable.
We can do a UTR point exchange program as mine rose by 2 points, again with no discernible reason. I'm going to have to get methodically destroyed to get back to my proper level.
 

sovertennis

Professional
Lordy, you scared me into checking mine, I'm male, mine dropped almost 2 points the past 9 months with no matches played in singles that were recorded for USTA or UTR, just a bunch of doubles matches. I'm going to have to methodically destroy opponents out of level again just to get it to where it should be, so tedious and uncomfortable.
Isn't this the inherent flaw in UTR, ie it's so random that's inaccurate? What's the point of chasing a UTR number if that number can change for no apparent reason? As an aside, my wife tells me that UTR keeps asking that she consider their paid version, one of the perks of which is that version will identify for her players in our area who have the same UTR as she does and they can meet and play. "Why," she asks, "would I want to play someone with a UTR 2? I was a 5.7 last month".
 

Creighton

Rookie
UTR is such a good idea, but as adults we typically just don't play enough matches for the records to be accurate.

I was a UTR 6 as a few days ago but it's dropped to 5.69 or something after a few wins. One of the guys I beat last week is UTR 7 in doubles(3-0 in 2021 at 4.0) but because he hasn't played a USTA singles match since 2019(we didn't play 2020 USTA in our local league) he was UR in singles. So after beating him 6-1, 7-6 my rating went down even though he's a better player than me. It's not like his huge serve and forehand went away just because he switched to singles. But UTR now feels he's a 4 in singles.
 

jdawgg

Rookie
Since UTR hasn't taken off yet in my area, maybe they should focus more on providing an accurate rating based on your USTA results? And maybe they shouldn't drop results off so quickly? USTA doesn't drop your computer rating for something like 4 years. Seems like they are wayyyy off base. I really hope an alternative to USTA becomes viable, but with how bad they're doing with ratings its hard to see it taking off. Also it appears the tournaments they're doing are all fast 4 which is a big turn off for me. I get a big thrill out of playing long difficult matches and it tips the favor to tall, big serving offensive players. Those guys already have enough advantage in my area with a lot of the tournaments being indoors.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Since UTR hasn't taken off yet in my area, maybe they should focus more on providing an accurate rating based on your USTA results? And maybe they shouldn't drop results off so quickly? USTA doesn't drop your computer rating for something like 4 years. Seems like they are wayyyy off base. I really hope an alternative to USTA becomes viable, but with how bad they're doing with ratings its hard to see it taking off. Also it appears the tournaments they're doing are all fast 4 which is a big turn off for me. I get a big thrill out of playing long difficult matches and it tips the favor to tall, big serving offensive players. Those guys already have enough advantage in my area with a lot of the tournaments being indoors.
UTR already pulls USTA league and tournament results ... that is how they are generating a UTR rating for most adults ...
I agree on the Fast4 formats ... but that is up to the local TD not UTR to determine format.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
It is a problem during covid, but overall I love UTR, but I like the option of having a tournament almost every single weekend of the year I can head off too when I want. Before covid the ratings were no problem at all they were great and the competition I could play was really amazing and challenging.
 

FuzzyYellowBalls

Professional
Isn't this the inherent flaw in UTR, ie it's so random that's inaccurate? What's the point of chasing a UTR number if that number can change for no apparent reason? As an aside, my wife tells me that UTR keeps asking that she consider their paid version, one of the perks of which is that version will identify for her players in our area who have the same UTR as she does and they can meet and play. "Why," she asks, "would I want to play someone with a UTR 2? I was a 5.7 last month".
Sorry meant to reply above. Yes, whatever the issue is with your wife's rating, she needs to, if she feels it is worth her time, email UTR and also tell any tournaments she is entering. That's a great thing about UTR, they respond usually and there aren't any illogical rules the tournament directors have to follow, they can place her in a higher group.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Here are the basics for my area:
3.0NTRP: Women: UTRs 2s some 3s Men: Mostly 3s some 4s
3.5NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 2s, rare 4s Men: Mostly 5s some 6s
4.0NTRP: Women: Mostly 3s some 4s rare 5s Men: Mostly 6s some 7s
Was just looking at this for my teams:

3.5 NTRP 3.01 to 3.69 - 3-5 UTR
4.0 NTRP 3.24 to 3.86 - 4-6 UTR

I opt'd to only play 3.5 leagues this year (I am 3.5C currently), starting out with a 5.5 UTR rating. I have gone 11-3 (dubs only this year), with only a few matches that were not 1,2,3 type wins over mostly 4's and my rating has dropped to currently 5.08. My equivalent NTRP has also dropped to just 3.25. Interestingly one of my teammates who is currently only rated 3.5 is NTRP 3.69 going 26-2 this season, and is STILL only rated a 5 UTR. Even the top 4.0 player, rated 4.0 with an NTRP of 3.86, is just 6 UTR.

I think it is possible UTR has compressed lower ranked UTR players to give more stratification for higher levels. I know NTRP carry-over ratings messed things up, but maybe they are also hobbling lower player increases. I dunno. I do know, NTRP seems flipping WHACK right now.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
Looks like the going UTR ranges in our area right now are:

Men: 3.5C 3-5, 4.0C 5-6, 4.5C 6-7.

Ladies: 3.5C 2-4, 4.0C 3-5, 4.5C 4-5

It seems like on both sides, the 4.0 level is completely overlapped on both sides by 3.5 and 4.5. I would expect there to be some overlap, but it seems like UTR can’t accurately distinguish between these NTRP levels due to the relatively small ranges they occupy on the UTR scale. My impression is that UTR caters to the top few percent of competitive tennis players: top HS students looking to be recruited, college players at schools with competitive programs, and players who are trying to go pro.
 

FIRETennis

Professional
Looks like the going UTR ranges in our area right now are:

Men: 3.5C 3-5, 4.0C 5-6, 4.5C 6-7.

Ladies: 3.5C 2-4, 4.0C 3-5, 4.5C 4-5

It seems like on both sides, the 4.0 level is completely overlapped on both sides by 3.5 and 4.5. I would expect there to be some overlap, but it seems like UTR can’t accurately distinguish between these NTRP levels due to the relatively small ranges they occupy on the UTR scale. My impression is that UTR caters to the top few percent of competitive tennis players: top HS students looking to be recruited, college players at schools with competitive programs, and players who are trying to go pro.
The problem UTR has is time decay reduction of UTR as well as not differentiating enough between Verified UTR and Projected UTR.
A 3.5/4.0 NTRP player with 10+ UTR matches against other Verified similar level players with 10+ matches, I find it to be quite accurate at that point.
Problem is getting 10+ matches in UTR against opponents who have had 10+ matches....
While it does cater to the groups you mention, I think UTR needs to do a better job marketing and explaining the system to the rest of the 95% of users.
There is a ~1.5-2 UTR spread between average NTRP levels. Enough for 6-1 6-2s or less.




Source: https://www.tcr-nyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/UTR_Player_Range.pdf
 

esgee48

Legend
Looking at the image above, I would say they have garbage since the KS value [a statistical term used to describe non parametric distribution] is <<1. There is basically no separation at all between the UTR groupings. Some degree of overlap is OK, but it should occur only at the top and bottom.
 
Looking at the image above, I would say they have garbage since the KS value [a statistical term used to describe non parametric distribution] is <<1. There is basically no separation at all between the UTR groupings. Some degree of overlap is OK, but it should occur only at the top and bottom.
When you write "no separation", you mean relative to NTRP comparisons, right? I believe you're expecting to see a given UTR map only to one NTRP [like something is a function only if one value of x has only one value of y and not > 1].

But if you remove the NTRP comparison, you obviously get a "no overlap" situation by definition.

So the flaw is how well/poorly it maps to another system. But is that a flaw of UTR, of NTRP, of both, or neither?
 

leech

Semi-Pro
Hmmm, this makes me feel good about my 4.0 men's team's chances of doing well this year.... our top six UTR ratings for doubles are 6.74 to 7.02. It does fluctuate wildly from day to day (upwards of 0.20 points either direction), for no apparent reason. For singles, the UTR is all over the place, which I suppose is a function of our guys not having played many singles matches relative to doubles (which included MXD and combo and MXD combo results).
 

esgee48

Legend
@S&V-not_dead_yet - yes. A good discriminant range of numbers should have overlaps only at the bottom and top edges of the distribution, e.g. 2.95-3.05, 3.45-3.55 and so forth. With the broad UTR ranges in each NTRP group, you really do not know who you are playing. A 3.0 woman could be playing a 4.0 woman or a 3.5 man playing a 4.0 man. At the higher levels, there is some normalcy, but a high 4.5 playing a middling 5.0 is not a good matchup for the 4.5. I was at a facility that had a UTR match going on. A man was playing a woman in singles. I overhead the results, guy won maybe 2 & 3. At higher UTR numbers, maybe a woman could hang with a guy if the guy was 4.5 and she was a 5.0.
 
@S&V-not_dead_yet - yes. A good discriminant range of numbers should have overlaps only at the bottom and top edges of the distribution, e.g. 2.95-3.05, 3.45-3.55 and so forth. With the broad UTR ranges in each NTRP group, you really do not know who you are playing. A 3.0 woman could be playing a 4.0 woman or a 3.5 man playing a 4.0 man. At the higher levels, there is some normalcy, but a high 4.5 playing a middling 5.0 is not a good matchup for the 4.5. I was at a facility that had a UTR match going on. A man was playing a woman in singles. I overhead the results, guy won maybe 2 & 3. At higher UTR numbers, maybe a woman could hang with a guy if the guy was 4.5 and she was a 5.0.
Then by the same token, someone who only knows UTR would not know who he's getting when he knows only the NTRP of his opponent for the exact same reasons you just outlined.

And since there are more levels in UTR, one could argue that the skill spread from top to bottom of any given UTR is smaller than that of an NTRP level [a high NTRP x.y should double bagel a low x.y but I haven't seen the same thing stated for UTR].

To me, all of this only says that neither system is perfect and you have flaws no matter what you choose. Trying to compare 2 flawed systems to each other to determine which one is better is an even tougher ask.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
I find UTR ratings to be pretty good for making matchups in social matches once you get above UTR of 6. It helps that UTR goes up to 16 (let’s say 4-12 for most rec players) while NTRP is only till 7 (3.5 to 5.0 for most rec players). You can see finer gradations of UTR levels especially since UTR lists if someone is a 7.2 or 7.8 UTR unlike NTRP where you only know if someone is a 3.5 or 4 on the NTRP computer. It is much better than using ‘tennisrecord‘ or ‘TLS’ to guess the relative NTRP levels of players as I find the dynamic estimated ratings of NTRP on those sites to be very wrong in many cases.

I also like that UTR has separate ratings for singles and doubles as is the case in real life - big flaw of NTRP to have just one rating. There are many guys who can play 4.5 doubles who are too unfit to even win high 4.0 singles or guys who only play singles at a good level who have no concept of higher level doubles tactics with a good net game.

I set up a lot of social singles and doubles at my club for 4.0/4.5/5.0 players and now use UTR ratings more and more to decide on lineups on multiple courts.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
(let’s say 4-12 for most rec players)
The problem is that even among competitive rec players the overwhelming majority are 4.0 and below which puts them roughly in the 3-6 range. So UTR isn’t really any more fine-grained than NTRP in this skill area.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
The problem is that even among competitive rec players the overwhelming majority are 4.0 and below which puts them roughly in the 3-6 range. So UTR isn’t really any more fine-grained than NTRP in this skill area.
If you look at male 3.5 and 4.0 players, UTR has them in a range from 3.0 to 7. So, you have a chance to get 5 UTR ranking numbers for 2 NTRP ranking numbers. Plus if you are a UTR member, you can see the decimal points of the UTR ranking (3.3 vs 3.9) which you don’t get in NTRP - all you know is whether someone is 3.5 or 4.0 on the NTRP computer or you have decimal point ratings on Tennisrecord and TLS which do t even match each other closely. Lastly, UTR has separate ratings for singles and doubles and you know which one someone’s UTR is based on.

I deal mostly with mid-4.0 to low 5.0 players in my social matches and their UTR ranges from 5.5 to around 9.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Interesting. Again today it seems UTR made another shift? I have continued to drop overall this season even though I have solid wins, going from a 5.5 to 5.2. Most the guys we have played were all 4's and 5's, and we've been winning pretty solidly.

Anyway, all matches have been played and I just checked back in, and all the players in the matches we've complete seem to have dropped at least a level? I went from 5.2 now to 4.8, so a half a point, and where I was playing 4's and 5's, most show as 3's and 4's now.

Anyone else see this?
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Interesting. Again today it seems UTR made another shift? I have continued to drop overall this season even though I have solid wins, going from a 5.5 to 5.2. Most the guys we have played were all 4's and 5's, and we've been winning pretty solidly.

Anyway, all matches have been played and I just checked back in, and all the players in the matches we've complete seem to have dropped at least a level? I went from 5.2 now to 4.8, so a half a point, and where I was playing 4's and 5's, most show as 3's and 4's now.

Anyone else see this?
Yup. Across the board men and women in the 3.5/4.0 range ... also seeing about a 0.5 shift.

It definitely looks to be a manual rather than an organic shift ... an entire district can't all have fallen apart all at the same time!
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
My UTR rating is based only on USTA league matches and while I haven’t played an official league match since March of 2020, my UTR has gone up by a full point since. I can only assume that the players I beat previously have been playing and increasing their UTR which is helping my rating.

I wonder for UTR doubles ratings, what will happen if my previous partner’s UTR goes down currently based on his recent matches while I haven’t been playing? Will I get more UTR credit for matches we played together as partners in the past?
 

sovertennis

Professional
The plummet continues, unabated! My wife's UTR has made a precipitous drop--now at 2.8, leading to unmitigated angst, existential dread and me packing my bags (as a tennis coach, there's only so much I can take). I've threatened to make her play in a 9.0 mixed league with me as her partner.

OTOH, she finished 4th in a big bike race this weekend (the top two are both both pros) so maybe I'll stay with her. Fortunately, her tennis season is almost over.
 
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