Sorry for the noise then. I took other motions/techniques to mean something substantially different than a typical serve technique. So I guess I got off track early on in the discussion and annoyed you guys. I guess I was intrigued by the possibility of additional power in some different kind of swing. I'll start a separate thread on that topic if I ever find reason to bring it up again.
Mystery of pronation on serve
- Thread starter FiReFTW
- Start date
Sorry for the noise then. I took other motions/techniques to mean something substantially different than a typical serve technique. So I guess I got off track early on in the discussion and annoyed you guys. I guess I was intrigued by the possibility of additional power in some different kind of swing. I'll start a separate thread on that topic if I ever find reason to bring it up again.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
If you can measure the amount of rotation you can simply compare that number of degrees to someone else's. It's only one aspect but an interesting one.
And JY has already compared rotation between two players visually. He compared Fed & Sharapova's rotation. He even compared different serves from the same player.
6 minutes in.
And JY has already compared rotation between two players visually. He compared Fed & Sharapova's rotation. He even compared different serves from the same player.
6 minutes in.
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heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
When I serve, I keep one thought in my head. "Get your elbow pointed to the sky as soon as you can". ..............................
...................................................................
Do you have a guess for what type(s) of serves end like this Sampras serve? When is it used?
Guess for percentage of high level servers that end like this for the given type of serve?
Is this about the same as a Jeff Salzenstein 'dirty diaper' follow through?
It seems as if this finish can only be done if other things are aligned, initial body, swing path, etc. ???
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r2473
G.O.A.T.
Sure, of course it works great for a kick serve. But it's also fantastic for a topspin serve. About all the changes is the ball toss. Kick serve is over or even behind your head. Topspin is a bit further into the court. In both serves I aim for this same position. Now, I'm not saying I actually get into this position. But that's my mental picture I'm going for.
It's a bit like in golf sometimes people say they want to hold the club straight down the line as long as possible. Moe Norman used to say this and he actually believed he did it. But slow motion video proved he didn't. No matter. It's the MENTAL picture that's important here, not reality. And that mental picture helped Moe Norman hit the golf ball "machine straight" nearly every time. That's what's important. And this mental picture help me get the spin on the ball I need to bring the ball down into the court, even when I swing basically as hard as I can.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Here is a kick serve with perhaps the elbow up motion? Impact is at "0 ms". Is that enough of an elbow angle?
To do stop action single frame on Vimeo, click "Vimeo", full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW keys.
To do stop action single frame on Vimeo, click "Vimeo", full screen, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW keys.
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JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Fire, Henin,
As with Fire's serve example there is no way to clone any player for any technical experiment on any shot. But research shows that the internal shoulder rotation is a key source of racket speed. And the so called pronated position I believe maximizes it. I have seen players I have worked with gain 7-10mph on the serve when they learn to complete this motion.
As with Fire's serve example there is no way to clone any player for any technical experiment on any shot. But research shows that the internal shoulder rotation is a key source of racket speed. And the so called pronated position I believe maximizes it. I have seen players I have worked with gain 7-10mph on the serve when they learn to complete this motion.
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
I don't believe in cloning.
Bobs tennis
Semi-Pro
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
I really don't like this vid. Pronation is something that happens naturally when you relax and do everything else properly, not something you actively try to do.
What was their NTRP level and serve speed prior to this? In other words, is it worthwhile for others to pursue?
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
WildVolley
Legend
I'm not sure it is a secret, but it certainly is an aspect of proper pronation (or more accurately, internal shoulder rotation).
I've questioned the serving advice to "hit the ball as high up as possible" because I noticed that my fastest, most effortless serves occurred when my contact point was slightly lower than what used to be my normal form. I determined that the slightly lower contact point allowed the handle line and my forearm to form more of an angle at contact and that allowed internal rotation to drive the racquet through the ball faster.
When my forearm and the racquet almost form a straight line line at contact, the internal rotation cannot provide as much racquet head speed, in my experience.
WildVolley
Legend
But what happens when the player doesn't know how to or isn't capable of doing "everything else properly"?
You may be right, but then the player needs to still learn the set-up moves such that to bring the racquet into the ball the server will need to rely more on an internal rotation movement rather than a pushing movement with the arm. Without the proper setup, it might not be too helpful to tack on attempt at vigorous internal rotation onto a waiter's tray push movement.
In either case, while I think it is definitely beneficial to tell a player to relax, I do think that most players who haven't yet grooved an optimal movement pattern are going to need to step back and work on specific movements in a way that will seem unnatural or forced to an expert player.
bitcoinoperated
Hall of Fame
Then they need to learn to do that rather than pseudo doing it by forcing it.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
This is what makes teaching sports technique difficult. I like to use golf as the example. I often see people on the range trying to get their club in a certain position at a certain time in the swing by just moving it there (with their arms / hands). And they wonder why they can't hit a golf ball.
The "check positions" are just that. They are things to look for to see if you are doing things "right". Not positions you actively try to manipulate into. But you have these positions "in mind" as you are executing the movement.
But until you have the "ah-ha" moment of understanding what this means (in tennis, golf, skiing, or anything), it's really hard to "get it". And once you get it, you understand. But if you don't "get it", it's almost impossible to explain to someone, because it's more of a "feel" and in some ways it's an "attitude".
I remember the first time I really "got it". It changed the way I did every sport (I actually got the "ah-ha" moment in golf, not tennis).
I take 3/4 swings on most of my shots in golf. Just so much easier to stay in balance for me. But understanding how to generate "effortless power", I don't need the power of a full swing at the cost of loss of balance and inconsistency. People always tell me I should swing harder with my driver and I could be a "big hitter". I ask them why it matters. I hit drives in the 250-265 yard range. And on most holes, that's all that's necessary. And extra 15 yards would make no difference at all. And if I want to hit an iron 10 yards further, I just grab the next club up. I don't swing harder. It makes no sense.
In tennis, power is nice, but vastly overrated. If you can produce "efficient, effortless power", you really don't need to swing that hard. You'll have all the pace that's necessary, retain balance, and increase consistency.
So for me, the "Sampras pronation" position shows me I'm doing the things I need to be doing well and usually means I'll hit a successful serve. But not always. I may be messing something else up that this "check" doesn't pick up. So this check won't work for everyone. In addition, it's not that I always actually achieve that extreme position Sampras gets into (it's really hard to be in that position that early, most people don't get there until their racquet is much lower). It's more of a "feel". More of a "mental picture" to shoot for.
Any way, for folks on this thread, if you are happy with your serve in terms of power, spin, and placement, then you have nothing to worry about. Just keep doing what you're doing. That's what I intend to do.
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WildVolley
Legend
I agree.
However, I think that properly performed shadow swings, for example, at half-speed will feel unnatural to someone first performing them. So I guess my caveat is just for someone learning proper technique to not worry about the "natural" part as long as the movement pattern seems correct and isn't causing any obvious pain or potential injury.
r2473
G.O.A.T.
I do recall how I was taught "the move" in golf (about 20 years ago). I was on the range; arm swinging; casting over the top; slicing wildly; ball going nowhere; just couldn't understand.
It was pointed out to me that at the "transition", the club is still going back while the body is moving forward (this is especially true in the "one-plane" swing I have as compared to a "two plane" swing).
How on earth could I be going in two different directions at once I wondered. But once I figured out the "magic move" (as he called it), I "understood". And this carried over to many other sports.
In some sense, once your really understand this, many other things "just work". It's not exactly a silver bullet, but darn close.
For me, the more separation between upper/lower body I get, the more "lag" I get, and the more things just "work" better. Sometimes I'll really try to exaggerate this.
The only way to achieve the "extreme" positions you see a professional baseball pitcher get into, or a pro golfer, or the "Sampras" position, is to be doing this. If you actively try to get into these positions, they are impossible. And even if you somehow could do it with manipulating the arm/hand, it's not even close to the same thing. You have no "coil" in your body. Nothing works.
It was pointed out to me that at the "transition", the club is still going back while the body is moving forward (this is especially true in the "one-plane" swing I have as compared to a "two plane" swing).
How on earth could I be going in two different directions at once I wondered. But once I figured out the "magic move" (as he called it), I "understood". And this carried over to many other sports.
In some sense, once your really understand this, many other things "just work". It's not exactly a silver bullet, but darn close.
For me, the more separation between upper/lower body I get, the more "lag" I get, and the more things just "work" better. Sometimes I'll really try to exaggerate this.
The only way to achieve the "extreme" positions you see a professional baseball pitcher get into, or a pro golfer, or the "Sampras" position, is to be doing this. If you actively try to get into these positions, they are impossible. And even if you somehow could do it with manipulating the arm/hand, it's not even close to the same thing. You have no "coil" in your body. Nothing works.
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JohnYandell
Hall of Fame
Suresh,
Obviously yes. One of the top women's college players in the country down to 4.0 NTRP guys.
Obviously yes. One of the top women's college players in the country down to 4.0 NTRP guys.
In other words, you have no useful suggestion, after a long write-up about extraneous things.
No rec player should be satisfied with his serve. Constant improvement should be the goal.
stringertom
Bionic Poster
How can you improve on peRFection, being Smootherer than all of us mere mortals???
donquijote
G.O.A.T.
FiReFTW
Legend
@Kevo @r2473 @Toby14
Sadly the weather was absolutely horrible here for 2 weeks, but finally I could go practice some... ive finally got the feeling for this pronation, its actually quite simple once you get it and it clicks.
So far my impressions and opinion
1.Definetly needed if you want the best serve possible
2.Feels like very little effort and alot of pace on the ball
3.Need to get a feel for it, before it was easier to create different spins because I waas just brushing past the ball, here its a bit "different" since you never really go through the ball like I did before in a flat serve, but even if you serve more flatish you still go kind of past it but the pronation then turns towards the court, so the ball flies off basically more off an angle now, and your turned more sideways... need a bit of practice to get a good feel
Vid of me playing with it a bit.. im serving so casual here, putting very little effort, no leg drive, very smooth and casual swings, and yet I think the ball has quite decent pace on it regardless, can't really swing faster for now since I don't have the timing down yet, but considering how little im putting into these shots im pretty amazed at the pace.
Now I need to really practice it and get a good feel for timing and also producing different spins, so I can vary the spins alot and get a feel for it
Man, watching miself now... it feels federer like.. so casual and smooth with no effort, yet such decent pace, crazy haha
Btw you can slow down the vid on youtube to 0.25 speed, to really see the pronation, specially on the last 2 slow motion serves
The most amazing thing is, that before I probably had to hit almost FULL POWER ALL OUT, really SWING HAAAARD, probably around maybe 85-90% to get this kind of pace, and now I can barely put any effort in it, it these serves felt like almost no effort very casual and get the same pace.
It... feels...great
Sadly the weather was absolutely horrible here for 2 weeks, but finally I could go practice some... ive finally got the feeling for this pronation, its actually quite simple once you get it and it clicks.
So far my impressions and opinion
1.Definetly needed if you want the best serve possible
2.Feels like very little effort and alot of pace on the ball
3.Need to get a feel for it, before it was easier to create different spins because I waas just brushing past the ball, here its a bit "different" since you never really go through the ball like I did before in a flat serve, but even if you serve more flatish you still go kind of past it but the pronation then turns towards the court, so the ball flies off basically more off an angle now, and your turned more sideways... need a bit of practice to get a good feel
Vid of me playing with it a bit.. im serving so casual here, putting very little effort, no leg drive, very smooth and casual swings, and yet I think the ball has quite decent pace on it regardless, can't really swing faster for now since I don't have the timing down yet, but considering how little im putting into these shots im pretty amazed at the pace.
Now I need to really practice it and get a good feel for timing and also producing different spins, so I can vary the spins alot and get a feel for it
Man, watching miself now... it feels federer like.. so casual and smooth with no effort, yet such decent pace, crazy haha
Btw you can slow down the vid on youtube to 0.25 speed, to really see the pronation, specially on the last 2 slow motion serves
The most amazing thing is, that before I probably had to hit almost FULL POWER ALL OUT, really SWING HAAAARD, probably around maybe 85-90% to get this kind of pace, and now I can barely put any effort in it, it these serves felt like almost no effort very casual and get the same pace.
It... feels...great
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
It sounds like a real nice pop off the stringbed. Not sure its hitting higher on the backfence but this may not be indicator of speed. The motion looks smooth and controlled.
FiReFTW
Legend
Yeah, the old one without full pronation was more of a push forced feel, but this feels smooth and soft, very soft, hard to describe, very soft and effortless.
Also before I was hitting at my limit like close to 100%, but here I have a lot of reserve, but I don't have the timing yet, if I really use legs and really hit with alot of force from my body I misshit a bit, so I don't hit close the center so its useless, need to build up speed slowly.
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
Just wondering if its possible to mix in radial to ulnar while doing the pronation?
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
The serve at 14 sec looks like ISR is working. Changing angle between forearm and racket approaching ball looks reasonable.
The other serves, can't tell.
High speed video comparisons from similar camera angles. Compare everything.
The other serves, can't tell.
High speed video comparisons from similar camera angles. Compare everything.
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It's looking really pretty good. I think you just need to fix 2 things while your working on it at a more leisurely pace. Once you fix these two things and practice it enough so it feels very normal and natural, then you can start ramping up the pace.
The first thing is the toss not quite in line with your body. It's a little to far to the right. You want to be hitting the ball more overhead. Usually somewhere between the head and hitting shoulder is good. Remember, the toss is the boss! Once you get it more overhead you should have a little bit more of an L angle with your racquet and arm. When it gets too straight you lose some of the leverage from the arm rotation. Also, having the ball to the right of your shoulder is going to limit how much of your body weight will transfer into the ball.
The second thing would be to not swing the arm through the ball as quickly. You want the arm swinging up and that energy as much as possible should transfer into the arm rotation, then the arm should come down as the weight of the racquet comes through and pulls it down. It will never be a perfect transfer so there will always be some swing through with the arm, but you want to try and conserve as much of that upward swing as possible. What I look for is how complete the rotation (pronation) is while the arm is still high. Your rotation isn't completing until the arm is roughly halfway back down.
Hope that makes sense.
The first thing is the toss not quite in line with your body. It's a little to far to the right. You want to be hitting the ball more overhead. Usually somewhere between the head and hitting shoulder is good. Remember, the toss is the boss! Once you get it more overhead you should have a little bit more of an L angle with your racquet and arm. When it gets too straight you lose some of the leverage from the arm rotation. Also, having the ball to the right of your shoulder is going to limit how much of your body weight will transfer into the ball.
The second thing would be to not swing the arm through the ball as quickly. You want the arm swinging up and that energy as much as possible should transfer into the arm rotation, then the arm should come down as the weight of the racquet comes through and pulls it down. It will never be a perfect transfer so there will always be some swing through with the arm, but you want to try and conserve as much of that upward swing as possible. What I look for is how complete the rotation (pronation) is while the arm is still high. Your rotation isn't completing until the arm is roughly halfway back down.
Hope that makes sense.
FiReFTW
Legend
Amazing insight!
First thing I will for sure fix, its a very easy fix.
Second thing sounds a bit more complex, but I will try..I do get what you mean, maybe im swinging more through so that the ball doesn't sail long (in my head) instead of more up, will try to change it and experiment a bit with it, I hope I can get it.
oserver
Professional
Pronation is a trained skill that does not come naturally and easily. By doing it with the rapid wrist/elbow flexing, the grip of the racket and the arm cannot be very loose, like the forehand looseness. Good players always try to make the serve grip/arm loose to the extent of just about losing the racket into the air. I've seen a few cases of serving and throwing the racket out in Indian Well matches this year.
The only way to have a real loose grip of racket and a loose arm is using the forehand forms and techniques. Anyone knows other alternatives?
r2473
G.O.A.T.
The serve is at least as much “art” as it is technique and skill. But that is true for most sports. In the end, some get it and some don’t.
You can watch a good server all day long in slow motion. Have a coach go over things over and over. You might get it and you might not. Most guys who are good at sports catch on to things pretty quickly because they have a “good feel”. You really can’t be mechanical in sports. You can’t be mechanical on the serve. It doesn’t work.
You can watch a good server all day long in slow motion. Have a coach go over things over and over. You might get it and you might not. Most guys who are good at sports catch on to things pretty quickly because they have a “good feel”. You really can’t be mechanical in sports. You can’t be mechanical on the serve. It doesn’t work.
D
Deleted member 54265
Guest
I have to respectfully disagree - pronation happens in a very natural way. I have been filming myself (slow motion) this summer throwing a ball, not thinking at all just throwing - and boom there you have it, pronation happens without even thinking about it. Look at any pitcher videos. It is a learning trap trying to force pronation. Stay loose, trowing your racquet up to the ball, and pronation will happened. Of cause you have to have the right grip, stance etc.
Cheers, Toby
D
Deleted member 54265
Guest
Exactly, very well put. I have been trying to develop a more natural serve, and working on getting my throwing mechanics into the serve (I uset to be a really good pitcher (handball), and want to convert this into my serve). Working very well so far
I am watching the feel tennis guy videos, and getting a lot of good info, he use to be a pro volleyball player like myself, so I kind of trust his way.
Cheers, Toby
moonballs
Hall of Fame
Last month I took a lesson for the firs time in a few years. Two things the coach told me: one is simply left hand to touch left thigh before moving upward in the toss, and this tip helped a lot since the lesson. The other tip is stay sideways more, even in the first serves. My chest usually faces the direction of where the ball is going at contact. A few people mentioned the same thing in this thread. At contact the chest is supposed to face the right net post or a little left of it, I guess. My question is why?
Hmgraphite1
Hall of Fame
I currently serving with a couple different continental grips. In on which was really loose I basically hold the racquet with just the thump and index, middle fingers. The other two are off the cap. The other I squeeze a little tighter and mainly hold with thum, pinky and ring finger the "upper grip" with index and middle are very loose. Not sure which is better for me yet.
D
Deleted member 54265
Guest
Have a look at the videos in post:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/some-new-serve-footage.621825/page-3#post-12533629
D
Deleted member 54265
Guest
My coach tells me the exact same things, have a look at the link I just postet, perhaps this will clear things up.
Cheers, Toby
oserver
Professional
Pronation happens in a very natural way only to those people who are sporty. Sure, some players can get it even without formal coaching. But for most players, it happens the hard way. Majority of tennis players will never get it, sadly. If you look at club players, not every 4.0 guy can do it right and not every 4.5 gals can do it. At lease for those who cannot get it, it won't happen naturally. Do you agree?
FiReFTW
Legend
I see videos of even 5.0 or 5.5 players and quite a few WTA players that don't pronate.
They are leaving a bit of power on the table alltho they still serve big serves like 110mph or more, but they leave some power and also alot of spin on the table, not to mention that its harder on the elbow and shoulder, so much less efficient and injury prone.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Which WTA players don't pronate?
FiReFTW
Legend
Are you serious? For someone like you who studies so many serves in extreme details im suprized you even asked this question.
Do you neve watch WTA matches on TV? pretty much 80% of the WTA girls when they show their serves in slow motion do not pronate properly.
Their serve motion is completely different from the high level ATP serve motion, its more of a rotational and they turn their body facing the target and they get the racquet on edge but then PUSH trough it so that it closes forward instead of pronating out.
Some examples (you can slow youtube videos to 0.25 speed)
If you watch WTA matches u will notice this trend happening to the vast majority of servers, on every slow motion of their serves.
Btw here is also a video of some college high level tennis, what are these guys D2 tennis players? Both don't pronate but PUSH trough the ball and the racquet face going down to the ground instead if sideways, if you watch in slow motion:
moonballs
Hall of Fame
Is this the Pat D video about hitting over the mountain? I totally get this part and I am working on it too with initial improvement. But I still don’t get why the body needs to be more side ways at contact for a flat serve. I also tried and have not been able to tell the benefit.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I see the elbow shadows indicating ISR for all three ladies (impact is not shown in the Woznaki video). Ostepanko has only two frames in the 30 fps video but by imagining how the elbow would bend if it did, you can see that ISR rotation has occurred. [ISR moves the forearm when the elbow is bent.] I have posted 'looking for the elbow shadows' many times and probably would have included that in your serve analysis from Jul 2017 and the recent one in 2018.
To do stop action single frame on Youtube use the "." and "," keys.
I suggest that you place three tapes of different lengths as markers around your upper arm very near the elbow to indicate ISR. Markers are much easier to see than elbow shadows.
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user92626
G.O.A.T.
This is interesting. I just discovered from today serving practice that I serve like this red shirt guy in term of lack of pronation. He doesn't swing forward with the edge first. The racket face stays similar between his take back and going into contact. It looks very straightforward and easy to follow.
For my serve my friend told me that it's great to keep things simple!!
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I looked at one serve from the guy in the red shirt. It looked like ISR to impact, normal, but it was only 30 fps so you can not be sure with just 2 frames, 1) frame around Big L Position and 2) frame at Impact.
What time of the video did you see something different?
The high level serve does not swing forward 'edge to the ball'. 'Edge to the ball' is a momentary checkpoint lasting a very short time. It occurs around the Big L Position. If edge to the ball, give or take, is not there it is not a high level serving technique.
"The racket face stays similar between his take back and going into contact." ? From when to contact?
If you have any thought about the serve check it out with high speed video. See Youtube posts of Anatoly Antipin (Toly)
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oserver
Professional
Agree with you. Two biggest myths of tennis serves are: #1 - continental grip, #2 - pronation.
Officially, they are the have to do dogmas. But they are just myths. You can develop good serves without doing both.
By opening the stance or grip, players maybe able to release some of the serve potential left behind.
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Curious
G.O.A.T.
You agree with him but he is trying to emphasize the importance of pronation, not that it's a myth!
oserver
Professional
That's why I added the last part: "By opening the stance or grip, players maybe able to release some of the serve potential left behind."
Most people believe that only the pronation can achieve the serve potential fully. People tend to forget that the serve stance and serve grip can be changed too to accommodate the serve style. Another thing can be changed is how to use the wrist - the modern forehand way or the modern serve way. Further more, how to use the arm can be changed too - the modern forehand way (passive arm) or the modern serve way (active or proactive arm).
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