MyTennisHQ (Karue Sell) Kick Serve advice

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eah123

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What do you think about Karue's kick serve advice in this video?

3 things he said that I don't agree with
1) you should try to make the ball go "up" from contact.
2) you should let the ball drop more than a flat serve before making contact
3) you should stay sideways

Intuitive Tennis Nick refutes these tips in these 2 videos:

Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
1) Hitting up resulted in a significant decrease in the serve speed
2) Let the ball drop more resulted in a kick serve that was lower over the net and did not bounce as high
3) Staying more sideways reduced the amount of internal shoulder rotation, serve speed, and most likely racquethead speed.
 
eah123 said:
Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
1) Hitting up resulted in a significant decrease in the serve speed
2) Let the ball drop more resulted in a kick serve that was lower over the net and did not bounce as high
3) Staying more sideways reduced the amount of internal shoulder rotation, serve speed, and most likely racquethead speed.
Click to expand...
This sounds like you trying to hit too thin with your serves. All 3 very good tips:

1. Is more feel vs real, but works brilliantly. Hit more “fat” through the ball aiming to send it higher.

2. Is absolutely must for many who get not enough arc and misses net/long too much. The only common problem is people start to lift/extend less with their bodies and still make same arm action, while it’s expected that contact happens earlier through arm swing, when it’s still going up, while the swing peak (after contact) remains same height.

3. Is absolutely fundamental again, because those who open up too soon end up manufacturing arm-only sideways swing which is slow, inefficient and injury prone. Staying sideways allows to make contact as racquet is just coming out of on-edge orientation - you kind of send the ball to your left, over your head and left shoulder. Works great

Still such tips should be personal. Like 80% of developing players will likely have issue successfully addressed by these Karue’s tips, but you personally may be from other 20%, and Karue could focus on different stuff working with you. Like hitting through the ball diagonally more, reaching higher and doing cartwheel more :unsure:
 
I agree with the 3 points you post him as saying. I think people trying to do these 3 things -in absence of a coach or good serve fundamentals to provide feedback- usually misinterpret how these advice are supposed to happen.

Haven't watched the video yet but seeing as how its a '4.5 now what?' and knowing what Winston's serve is normally like i imagine the before and after will be quite instructive for the avg 3.5/4.0 and any tips or truisms should be taken in the context of using how the serve actually looks as a guide.
 
eah123 said:
What do you think about Karue's kick serve advice in this video?

3 things he said that I don't agree with
1) you should try to make the ball go "up" from contact.
2) you should let the ball drop more than a flat serve before making contact
3) you should stay sideways

Intuitive Tennis Nick refutes these tips in these 2 videos:

Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
1) Hitting up resulted in a significant decrease in the serve speed
2) Let the ball drop more resulted in a kick serve that was lower over the net and did not bounce as high
3) Staying more sideways reduced the amount of internal shoulder rotation, serve speed, and most likely racquethead speed.
Click to expand...
Nick doesn't really refute point 2. He just says it's a small difference. He has a still frame in that video showing there's a difference. Also, his still is taken viewed from the net which makes the amount of leaning into the court harder to see. With a flat serve, you are leaning a long way into the court so the contact point gets lowered even though you are reaching up high to hit it. Whereas with a kick your jump and body movement is more focused on up rather than into the court. You can see his left foot will land in different places in that still.

IME, if someone is learning the kick and can't do it because they're stuck in their concept of what a serve swing should be, telling them to exaggerate the different contact point (behind and very low) really helps them get the idea of generating topspin. Also it can help an advanced player to get a loopier kick.

Nick emphasises not to just have a fine cut of the ball for a kick, but to me it's a useful interim stage when learning the kick.
 
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eah123 said:
3 things he said that I don't agree with
1) you should try to make the ball go "up" from contact.
2) you should let the ball drop more than a flat serve before making contact
3) you should stay sideways
Click to expand...
that's 3 things i do...
Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
1) Hitting up resulted in a significant decrease in the serve speed
2) Let the ball drop more resulted in a kick serve that was lower over the net and did not bounce as high
3) Staying more sideways reduced the amount of internal shoulder rotation, serve speed, and most likely racquethead speed.
Click to expand...
1. it's really up & out into the court... not just up... even if it was just up, it shouldn't reduce your rhs, unless you're slowing down because it's (a) incorrect swing (b) the swing path feels foreign - to me it feels like i'm swinging just as fast as my slice or flat serves... just minus the body rotation component (see 3)
2. maybe you're just brushing (up)... needs to combination of up & out to the right... tilt/lean into the court as i'm swinging is how i'm picturing it
3. i definitely feel like i'm staying more sideways at contact (than slice or flat) but my finish is still chest facing the net
 
So have you got a video of yourself we can compare to Karue's video?

Here's someone elses vid that popped up when I saw your quoted ones:

 
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Curious said:
I think Karue is the most reliable source of tennis information on the internet.
Click to expand...
The problem the OP is running in to is Karue's advice is more for advanced players; the sort of people that already have the basics down, and perhaps as importantly, have the racquet speed and strength to follow.

Here are the OP's observations:

Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
1) Hitting up resulted in a significant decrease in the serve speed
2) Let the ball drop more resulted in a kick serve that was lower over the net and did not bounce as high
3) Staying more sideways reduced the amount of internal shoulder rotation, serve speed, and most likely racquethead speed.

If your serve speed is reduced by hitting up on a second serve, you are not generating enough racquet speed, or you are not brushing the ball correctly, or both, in order to dip the ball back down in to the court. The faster you contact that ball, with the proper angle and brushing technique, the more spin and speed will result.

If you are actually getting more bounce out of your second serve by hitting it at the same height as your first serve, you have issues with how you are hitting either your first or your second serve. Something here isn't quite right.

If you have to fully rotate into the court in order to generate speed on the racquet and the ball on a second serve, you need more conditioning and coaching to generate the power required to hit a proper kick serve.

Another thing to note is the OP cited a URL at a time where Wu had hit a very acute angle on his second serve. It would likely result in a winner, but since he barely cleared the net, such a serve would likely end up getting far more unforced errors and double faults than winners. The whole idea of Karue's exercise is to have a second serve that is not a sitter, that will force the opponent to hit it at an uncomfortable height, preferably to their backhand, and clear the net enough to be a reliable shot to keep you in the match. A second serve is not a time to try and hit a winner. Very few of us are Fritz, Isner or Kygrios or Medvedev.

The video I posted with Thiem is a great example of the difference between his first and second serves. The OP definitely should watch it.
 
eah123 said:
Personally I tried Karu's tips today with poor results.
Click to expand...

It is hard to analyze without seeing your video. But my best guess is that you have not developed enough skills to hit a proper topspin second serve (forget about kick), and your current second serve is a simple slower version of your first serve.

Forget about kick... forget about pace....forget about depth.... try and brush the ball "thin" and see how high you can clear the net and still make it land really short in service court (extreme loop with some topspin).
Add other factors (to make your second serve more effective) ONLY after getting a feel of this (possibly weak) topspin serve.
 
eah123 said:
Intuitive Tennis Nick refutes these tips in these 2 videos:
Click to expand...

The debate of "ball is going down" from contact point vs "going up" from contact point is not something you want to get into. It is a "feel" vs "reality". This is purely based on the fact that if you analyze a high level topspin serve, the racquet head will be slightly closed on contact enough to send the ball slightly down into the court, even though the racket is going up and through the ball after contact (but if you ask the server... he will say he did send the ball up).

May I suggest something so that you can get both feel and reality same.
Stand on your knees and learn the topspin serve.... now there is no argument that the ball has to leave the racket "upwards" to clear the net... and that is the "feel" you will have as well.

"Karue's" points are what you should feel like ... at least when you are learning.
Nicks points are possibly what you may observe on a high level kick serve, if you analyze frame by frame (and there is possibly a factor of effort to create a unique video saying something different to invite more clicks or views)... Not saying thay are wrong. Just that it could be mis-leading someone in development stage.
 
Hitting "up and through" the ball at 7 to 2 o'clock and making sure to pronate was some pivotal advice I came across a few months ago.

It might work for you like it did for me (after experimenting over the years with varying degrees of success, none of them really convincing...until this).
 
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