Myths and Truths on the Seles-Graf Rivalry

[tennisballz]

Graf Fan Myth : Steffi had won more Grand Slams than Monica.

Truth : NOT during the time when Seles and Graf were both playing these Grand Slam events.

Seles' first Grand Slam singles tournament was the 1989 French. Between the 1989 French Open and the stabbing of Monica Seles in the back with a knife because she was winning too much for a Steffi Graf fan to tolerate:

16 Grand Slam singles titles ... Seles won 8, Graf won just 5.
4 WTA Tour Championships .. Seles won 3, Graf won just 1.

TOTALS: Seles won 11 majors and Graf won just 6 in the time between Seles beginning to compete at the Grand Slam events (beginning with the 1989 French Open) and the horrific stabbing of the #1 ranked teen phenom, Monica Seles, in the back with a knife by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

Graf Fan Myth: There are too many maybe's in the Seles' fans argument.

Truth : What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

I am not sure how well Maureen Connolly would have done after returning from her horseback riding accident .... I am not sure how Tracy Austin would have done if she had been able to truly return after her injuries.

Obviously, Monica Seles was not as good after being off for 2 or 3 years when she returned from being stabbed in the back with a knife in April 1993 by a jealous Graf fan.

TOTALLY beside the point.

Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing ... and then, she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan because Graf could not regain #1 in women's tennis while Seles was still alive or active on the WTA Tour.

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

Graf Fanatic Myth: Maybe" if Monica wasnt stabbed Steffi would have found a way to beat her anyway.

Truth: Monica Seles was winning 10 out of 12 of the biggest events in women's tennis in the 2.5 year period between late 1990 and the April 1993 knife stabbing. Is it true that Graf was limited to just 3 of the major singles titles (no more than just 1 per year) in 1990-1991-1992 while Seles was the only player in women's tennis in those years to win 2 or more of the biggest singles titles in those years (2 in 1990 for Seles ... then, 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both 1991 and 1992) before Seles kept up the pace by starting 1993 with a win over Steffi Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final before she was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan?

No question about it, Monica Seles was easily the best player in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career and clearly was the more superior player between the two prior to the stabbing.

END RESULT: pure and simple : Graf's record was INFLATED while Seles' RECORD was DEFLATED by the Horrific Stabbing Tragedy in Hamburg that altered the course of women's tennis history.

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

It would also help them to have no knowledge of Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert, Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova.

Take away Monica Seles, Gunther Parche, Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert, Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova ... completely wipe them away as if they never existed ... then, Steffi Graf would get my vote as the #1 women's tennis player of all time.

Of course, the problem with this is the fact that Seles, Parche, Wills Moody, Evert, Court and Navratilova existed.

1999 Roland Garros,

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 21 (22) and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

 

[kabob]

Gee, the truth I'm getting from this thread is that you're heavily biased towards Seles as a fan

 

[Ruuzo]

i'm with you on this tennisballz...it just kills me that Gunther Parche got exactly what he wanted.

 

[federerhoogenbandfan]

I remember back a few years ago when I used to post on CNN the Graf-Seles
stabbing issue went back and forth, and back and forth, it was so nauseating I usually avoided it altogether. Both sides keep saying the same things over and over, and it always inevitably goes nowhere.

 

[tennisballz]

Gee, the truth I'm getting from this thread is that you're heavily biased towards Seles as a fan

biased or the truth? Gee, another "myth" from a Graf fan.

 

[WW Volley]

It's a shame, sure - but we're just talking about tennis here.

Being stabbed is serious, life stuff. And it's far more important she's alive and well today, rather than polishing 20 slam titles.

 

[rod99]

stabbing or no stabbing, the fact of the matter is that graf won 22 grand slams (and won at least 4 of each of the major, which is ridiculous) while seles only won 8 grand slams. seles also never won wimbledon and graf destroyed her at wimbledon the 2 times they played eachother there. it's pure speculation to assume seles would have continued to defeat graf in the majority of grand slams.

 

[tennisjunkiela]

Graf Fan Myth : Steffi had won more Grand Slams than Monica.

Truth : NOT during the time when Seles and Graf were both playing these Grand Slam events.

Seles' first Grand Slam singles tournament was the 1989 French. Between the 1989 French Open and the stabbing of Monica Seles in the back with a knife because she was winning too much for a Steffi Graf fan to tolerate:

16 Grand Slam singles titles ... Seles won 8, Graf won just 5.
4 WTA Tour Championships .. Seles won 3, Graf won just 1.

TOTALS: Seles won 11 majors and Graf won just 6 in the time between Seles beginning to compete at the Grand Slam events (beginning with the 1989 French Open) and the horrific stabbing of the #1 ranked teen phenom, Monica Seles, in the back with a knife by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

Graf Fan Myth: There are too many maybe's in the Seles' fans argument.

Truth : What we do know is what DID happen in April 1993 to #1 ranked Monica Seles and that at her young age she had won 9 of the most recent 11 major singles titles in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

I am not sure how well Maureen Connolly would have done after returning from her horseback riding accident .... I am not sure how Tracy Austin would have done if she had been able to truly return after her injuries.

Obviously, Monica Seles was not as good after being off for 2 or 3 years when she returned from being stabbed in the back with a knife in April 1993 by a jealous Graf fan.

TOTALLY beside the point.

Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing ... and then, she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan because Graf could not regain #1 in women's tennis while Seles was still alive or active on the WTA Tour.

Based on the 12 biggest events between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993 there was nothing whatsoever which would suggest that Monica Seles was not going to continue her dominance over women's tennis going forward.

Graf Fanatic Myth: Maybe" if Monica wasnt stabbed Steffi would have found a way to beat her anyway.

Truth: Monica Seles was winning 10 out of 12 of the biggest events in women's tennis in the 2.5 year period between late 1990 and the April 1993 knife stabbing. Is it true that Graf was limited to just 3 of the major singles titles (no more than just 1 per year) in 1990-1991-1992 while Seles was the only player in women's tennis in those years to win 2 or more of the biggest singles titles in those years (2 in 1990 for Seles ... then, 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both 1991 and 1992) before Seles kept up the pace by starting 1993 with a win over Steffi Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final before she was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan?

No question about it, Monica Seles was easily the best player in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career and clearly was the more superior player between the two prior to the stabbing.

END RESULT: pure and simple : Graf's record was INFLATED while Seles' RECORD was DEFLATED by the Horrific Stabbing Tragedy in Hamburg that altered the course of women's tennis history.

The only way someone can say that Steffi Graf is the best female tennis player of all time is to have absolutely no knowledge of Monica Seles and Gunther Parche.

It would also help them to have no knowledge of Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert, Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova.

Take away Monica Seles, Gunther Parche, Helen Wills Moody, Chris Evert, Margaret Court and Martina Navratilova ... completely wipe them away as if they never existed ... then, Steffi Graf would get my vote as the #1 women's tennis player of all time.

Of course, the problem with this is the fact that Seles, Parche, Wills Moody, Evert, Court and Navratilova existed.

1999 Roland Garros,

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 21 (22) and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."

WOW. i didn't know all these facts.

you may have some validity to your arguments; however, the one glaring thing you didn't discuss was graf's 10-5 head to head overall winning record over seles and her 6-4 winning record against seles in slams.

overall, i do think that you make some very valid points and i agee that graf definitely benefited from the stabbing, but you should also address the issue raised above as well.

 

[randomname]

decent points, but seriously,, 3/4ths of that was just you repeating yourself, that didnt need to be anywhere near that long

 

[LendlFan]

To be quite factual ... you would have gain more respect if you started your Post correctly.

FACT: Steffi only won (1) Grand Slam ... Monica (0) Grand Slams


Also if you recall when Monica did come back (God Bless Her) she was kicking serious butt and blew through the field in Canada just prior to the US Open, then backed that up by blowing through the field at the US Open until she met Steffi in the Finals and we both know what happened there don't we? Or do your FACTS tell you otherwise ?

 

[8PAQ]

Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan.
Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan.
Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan.
Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan.
....
....
....
Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a jealous Graf fan.


OMG! We get it already! How many times do you have to reapeat in a single post?

Holy bias Batman!

 

[grandslamchamp]

Take the knife out of Seles' back and you wouldn't have Graff even among the top 10 of the all time greats.

Graff was done when Seles became number one!

 

[HookEmJeff]

Speaking of facts, whoever keeps writing that Seles' first Grand Slam title was the 1989 French Open better look that up. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario won that tournament. If not for Steffi's loss in the finals of that tournament to ASV, Steffi would have won BACK-TO-BACK calendar Grand Slams.

Jeff

 

[grandslamchamp]

To be quite factual ... you would have gain more respect if you started your Post correctly.

FACT: Steffi only won (1) Grand Slam ... Monica (0) Grand Slams


Also if you recall when Monica did come back (God Bless Her) she was kicking serious butt and blew through the field in Canada just prior to the US Open, then backed that up by blowing through the field at the US Open until she met Steffi in the Finals and we both know what happened there don't we? Or do your FACTS tell you otherwise ?

At one point, in the early 1990s it appeared Seles was on pace to produce historic career records. The two-handed titan won seven of the eight majors she played at one point and was clearly the premier player in women's tennis. At that point, Seles appeared poised to challenge for a prominent place as the greatest player of all time. It took a demented man plunging a knife in her back to derail what seemed to be an unstoppable tennis power. Prior to her stabbing, who would have believed the Seles of the early 1990s would have amassed "only" 53 tournament titles, including nine majors? Undoubtedly, these are Hall of Fame credentials, but the numbers pale in comparison to the career path Seles was on before she was stabbed.

 

[8PAQ]

Why do Seles fans seem to feel the need to remind everyone that she was stabbed every other sentence they say?

Do they think that we didn't get it the 1st 23684620774 times they mentioned it?

 

[tennisballz]

During the years 1990-1993 (other than grass which we have already conceded to Graf) they played 6 times -- and Monica won 4 of these.

So we have seen that world number one Seles beat second ranked Graf on rubber and clay .. let's move on to the other major championships of the early 1990s (I could list Key Biscayne in 1991 where Graf lost in the semis to Sabatini 1-6 in the third set before Seles beat Sabatini in straight sets in the final ... but we want to focus on the bigger events and not the Lipton/Ericsson/NASDAQ.)

So here goes:

Biggest Indoor Event in the World:


1990 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 12, 1990
GRAF LOST IN THE SEMIS TO SABATINI 4-6, 4-6
SELES BEAT SABATINI IN THE BEST OF 5 SETS FINAL.


1991 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 18, 1991
GRAF LOST IN THE QUARTERS TO NOVOTNA 1-6 IN THE 3RD.
NOVOTNA LOST TO NAVRATILOVA IN THE SEMIS.
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 6-4, 3-6, 7-5, 6-0 IN THE FINAL.


1992 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 16, 1992
GRAF LOST IN R1 TO LORI MCNEIL IN STRAIGHT SETS.
MCNEIL LOST TO NAVRATILOVA IN THE SEMIS
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 7-5, 6-3, 6-1 IN THE FINAL.


Did Graf lose early in all 3 of these Tour Championships so that she could say she had not lost to Seles indoors?

You cannot fault Seles for winning the tournament when Graf did not win enough to reach the final round vs. Seles.


Biggest Hardcourt Event in the World:

1991 U.S. OPEN - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST-SEPTEMBER, 1991
GRAF LOST IN SF TO NAVRATILOVA 6-7, 7-6, 4-6.
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 7-6, 6-1 IN THE FINAL.


1991 U.S. OPEN - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST-SEPTEMBER, 1991
GRAF LOST IN QF TO SANCHEZ-VICARIO 6-7, 3-6.
SELES BEAT SANCHEZ-VICARIO 6-3, 6-3 IN THE FINAL.


Did Graf lose early in these U.S. Opens so that she could say she had not lost to Seles in the biggest hardcourt event?

You cannot fault Seles for winning the tournament when Graf did not win enough to reach the final round vs. Seles.


Some Graf fans say:

Steffi had her Sabatini troubles ...BUT


Steffi also had her Novotna troubles ...
Steffi also had her Lori McNeal troubles ...
Steffi also had her Navratilova troubles ...
Steffi also had her ASV troubles ...

... and when Steffi finally found her way to the finals ...

Steffi also had her Seles troubles.

Meanwhile, Seles did not have trouble beating those players (Sabatini, Novotna, McNeal, Navratilova, ASV) when they were able to play well enough to advance in these big events to meet Seles in the finals.

Enter Gunther Parche...

 

[grandslamchamp]

During the years 1990-1993 (other than grass which we have already conceded to Graf) they played 6 times -- and Monica won 4 of these.

So we have seen that world number one Seles beat second ranked Graf on rubber and clay .. let's move on to the other major championships of the early 1990s (I could list Key Biscayne in 1991 where Graf lost in the semis to Sabatini 1-6 in the third set before Seles beat Sabatini in straight sets in the final ... but we want to focus on the bigger events and not the Lipton/Ericsson/NASDAQ.)

So here goes:

Biggest Indoor Event in the World:


1990 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 12, 1990
GRAF LOST IN THE SEMIS TO SABATINI 4-6, 4-6
SELES BEAT SABATINI IN THE BEST OF 5 SETS FINAL.


1991 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 18, 1991
GRAF LOST IN THE QUARTERS TO NOVOTNA 1-6 IN THE 3RD.
NOVOTNA LOST TO NAVRATILOVA IN THE SEMIS.
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 6-4, 3-6, 7-5, 6-0 IN THE FINAL.


1992 TOUR CHAMPIONSHIPS - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
WEEK OF NOVEMBER 16, 1992
GRAF LOST IN R1 TO LORI MCNEIL IN STRAIGHT SETS.
MCNEIL LOST TO NAVRATILOVA IN THE SEMIS
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 7-5, 6-3, 6-1 IN THE FINAL.


Did Graf lose early in all 3 of these Tour Championships so that she could say she had not lost to Seles indoors?

You cannot fault Seles for winning the tournament when Graf did not win enough to reach the final round vs. Seles.


Biggest Hardcourt Event in the World:

1991 U.S. OPEN - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST-SEPTEMBER, 1991
GRAF LOST IN SF TO NAVRATILOVA 6-7, 7-6, 4-6.
SELES BEAT NAVRATILOVA 7-6, 6-1 IN THE FINAL.


1991 U.S. OPEN - NEW YORK, NEW YORK
AUGUST-SEPTEMBER, 1991
GRAF LOST IN QF TO SANCHEZ-VICARIO 6-7, 3-6.
SELES BEAT SANCHEZ-VICARIO 6-3, 6-3 IN THE FINAL.


Did Graf lose early in these U.S. Opens so that she could say she had not lost to Seles in the biggest hardcourt event?

You cannot fault Seles for winning the tournament when Graf did not win enough to reach the final round vs. Seles.


Some Graf fans say:

Steffi had her Sabatini troubles ...BUT


Steffi also had her Novotna troubles ...
Steffi also had her Lori McNeal troubles ...
Steffi also had her Navratilova troubles ...
Steffi also had her ASV troubles ...

... and when Steffi finally found her way to the finals ...

Steffi also had her Seles troubles.

Meanwhile, Seles did not have trouble beating those players (Sabatini, Novotna, McNeal, Navratilova, ASV) when they were able to play well enough to advance in these big events to meet Seles in the finals.

Enter Gunther Parche...

Aside from losing to top ranked Seles, Steffi really let her edge slip and started losing to lower ranked players like Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, and Novotna.

 

[tennisballz]

Aside from losing to top ranked Seles, Steffi really let her edge slip and started losing to lower ranked players like Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, and Novotna.

Seles was not losing to these players when it mattered most --- in the Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships. Seles would let them beat Steffi Graf, and then Seles would be there waiting for them in the finals.

 

[LendlFan]

At one point, in the early 1990s it appeared Seles was on pace to produce historic career records. The two-handed titan won seven of the eight majors she played at one point and was clearly the premier player in women's tennis. At that point, Seles appeared poised to challenge for a prominent place as the greatest player of all time. It took a demented man plunging a knife in her back to derail what seemed to be an unstoppable tennis power. Prior to her stabbing, who would have believed the Seles of the early 1990s would have amassed "only" 53 tournament titles, including nine majors? Undoubtedly, these are Hall of Fame credentials, but the numbers pale in comparison to the career path Seles was on before she was stabbed.

You see there it goes again, the old 'Greatest of All Times' argument. I mean Steffi Graf won 22 Singles Grand Slam Titles and there are still people who believe Martina Navratalova was better. I can argue that point all night because in my opinion, Martina wasn't anywhere near as talented on the court as Steffi.

But many believe the opposite .. so now you're throwing in the IF Monica (God Bless Her) didn't this or didn't that - she WOULD have been the GOAT.

Don't get me wrong, how can anybody not LOVE Monica Seles ?? I am a HUGE fan of Monica's and always will be. I love her tremendously and wish she was still on tour. She was great for Steffi (who is my personal fav) but none-the-less, I welcomed the rivary because it was good for the women's game. Everybody needs the Pusher in order to be recognized as great.

Sampras only won 6 matches over Agassi ... but Pete is the GOAT according to most as of this moment. No one speaks of Agassi being the GOAT however he was able to accomplish more significant titles than Pete. Pete has Wimbledon which defines his Royalty. Absolutely sucked on clay, yet Andre appeared in 3 French Finals ... winning one of them. They met only 6 times in Grand Slam Finals - Pete winning 4 (2 USO & 2 Wimbys) .. Pete's never been to the French Finals .

Steffi Graf leads Monica Seles 10-5 Head to Head

10 of those matches were in the Finals and they were tied 3 & 3 in the Majors

*If you'd like to see a Poll regarding the GOAT Female Player look here

http://vote.pollit.com/vote?ID=497112&vote=4&submit=Submit+Vote

 

[grandslamchamp]

Seles was not losing to these players when it mattered most --- in the Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships. Seles would let them beat Steffi Graf, and then Seles would be there waiting for them in the finals.

Maybe Graf ( who was ranked #2) had tougher draws than Seles, and happened to play these girls in earlier rounds...

 

[tennisballz]

Maybe Graf ( who was ranked #2) had tougher draws than Seles, and happened to play these girls in earlier rounds...

However, it was Seles who lived up to her seeding to reach the final rounds and then beat these players in the final rounds who had earlier beaten Graf.

 

[grandslamchamp]

However, it was Seles who lived up to her seeding to reach the final rounds and then beat these players in the final rounds who had earlier beaten Graf.

Maybe it just so happened that by 1993, Graf had overcome her mental obstacles, and players like Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, and Novotna were no longer a factor ...

 

[tennisballz]

Maybe it just so happened that by 1993, Graf had overcome her mental obstacles, and players like Sabatini, Sanchez-Vicario, and Novotna were no longer a factor ...

Yeah, that is why Graf finally got through to meet up with Seles in the final round of the 1992 French Open (Graf lost to Seles) ... and Graf finally got through to meet up with Seles in the final of the 1993 Australian Open (again, Graf lost to Seles) INSTEAD OF continuing to lose in the quarters and semis to the players that Seles beat in the final rounds of these events.

 

[LendlFan]

Seles was not losing to these players when it mattered most --- in the Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships. Seles would let them beat Steffi Graf, and then Seles would be there waiting for them in the finals.

Well I would think Wimbledon matter somewhat and Seles lost to Zina Garrison there.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Yeah, that is why Graf finally got through to meet up with Seles in the final round of the 1992 French Open (Graf lost to Seles) ... and Graf finally got through to meet up with Seles in the final of the 1993 Australian Open (again, Graf lost to Seles) INSTEAD OF continuing to lose in the quarters and semis to the players that Seles beat in the final rounds of these events.

Steffi started to beat them on a very consistant basis...

 

[tennisballz]

Steffi started to beat them on a very consistant basis...

Steffi just could not beat Seles at a major event other than Wimbledon during those years.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Steffi just could not beat Seles at a major event other than Wimbledon during those years.

Maybe this has nothing to do with Seles.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Maybe this has nothing to do with Seles.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Maybe this has nothing to do with Seles.

 

[tennisballz]

Maybe this has nothing to do with Seles.

Of course, it had to do with Seles ... OTHERWISE, Steffi would have won the 1992 French Open final or the 1993 Australian Open final when she was finally able to get through to lose to Seles in these finals instead of losing to the players who would eventually end up losing to Seles in these finals.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Of course, it had to do with Seles ... OTHERWISE, Steffi would have won the 1992 French Open final or the 1993 Australian Open final when she was finally able to get through to lose to Seles in these finals instead of losing to the players who would eventually end up losing to Seles in these finals.

It would have made for a great rivalry, but Seles would have never surpassed Graf???..

 

[tennisballz]

It would have made for a great rivalry, but Seles would have never surpassed Graf???..

Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a jealous fan of Graf's took a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

 

[Northerly]

If Maureen Connolly hadn't fallen off a horse she COULD have been better than both of them. But she did and it's tragic.

And if Seles hadn't been stabbed she may have been the best. But she did and it's tragic.

What is utterly repugnant about this thread is the inference in parts of it that Graf was somehow responsible for Seles being stabbed. You cannot argue with people like this, it's a waste of time.

Of course in a numbers sense Graf "benefited" from Seles being stabbed. But the bottomline is that Graf, for her part, had to live with the implications of what happened as well - not like the morons who have posted here - and I bet she'd be at the front of the queue of people who wished the stabbing could be undone.

But it can't and life goes on - Seles and Graf have moved on. Some people here need to as well!

 

[tennisballz]

10-5..false!

Lendlfan,

The truth was that the head to head between Graf and Seles before the stabbing was 6-4. Graf won her first three matches against Monica ( When Monica was still a 15/16 year old rookie), BUT then LOST the next four of seven.......More importantly, Seles was 3-1 in head to head against Graf in Grand Slam Finals.

Seles, of course, as a teenager in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf (4-3) as well before Seles was stabbed. Again, in the years when Seles was 16, 17 and 18 years of age --- those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 --- Seles had the winning record vs. Graf when Graf was in her 20s for the most part. In fact, Seles had a much BETTER record than "Graf against Navratilova" at the same age....when Graf was still challenging Navratilova for the number one ranking. And to think that Navratilova was already in her early 30's.

Graf NEVER had a winning record vs. Navratilova --- not even once in their careers --- Graf drew EVEN with Navratilova in 1989 at 7-7 .... but, then, Navratilova and Seles BOTH had winning records vs. Graf in the matches played during that span of 1990-1993 (before the stabbing).

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario was able to win four matches against Steffi and pushed her to 3 sets on FIVE other occasions... and as for Sabatini, she was able to beat Graf five times during Monica's reign...

The women competed in 5 major events during those years ... these events are the Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships ... Seles won 10 of these 12 major events between November 1990 and April 1993 when she was stabbed.

It was not Monica's fault if ASV, Sabatini and Navratilova were stopping Graf from reaching Seles in the final rounds of these events. Monica beat whoever she played for the most part in those days in the major events -- did not matter if it was Graf or someone who had beaten Graf.

Beginning with the 1990 Tour Championships, Seles won 10 of the 12 major events played until she was stabbed .. and this includes 10 of the 11 major events she entered .. her only loss in these events was the 1992 Wimbledon final to Graf. That is dominance ... Winning the title in 10 of the 11 major events she played between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and her only loss was in a Wimbledon final in 1992 -- that is dominance.

Again, it was not Monica's fault if Graf lost to ASV, Sabatini and Navratilova so much before Seles beat them in the later rounds. And on those few occassions that she was able to face Seles in the finals..What happened? Monica BEAT her.


Seles played Steffi,Martina, Gabby, Arantxa and Jennifer 40 times in 1991-93 (Seles #1 ranking period)
and was 30-10....

Seles was 16-1 in GS and YE WTA champs with same opponents...
in that same period....

 

[grandslamchamp]

If Maureen Connolly hadn't fallen off a horse she COULD have been better than both of them. But she did and it's tragic.

And if Seles hadn't been stabbed she may have been the best. But she did and it's tragic.

What is utterly repugnant about this thread is the inference in parts of it that Graf was somehow responsible for Seles being stabbed. You cannot argue with people like this, it's a waste of time.

Of course in a numbers sense Graf "benefited" from Seles being stabbed. But the bottomline is that Graf, for her part, had to live with the implications of what happened as well - not like the morons who have posted here - and I bet she'd be at the front of the queue of people who wished the stabbing could be undone.

But it can't and life goes on - Seles and Graf have moved on. Some people here need to as well!

I don't think that poster was blaming Graf in any way. lol,lol,lol..you need to get a grip.

He/She is just giving a historical perspective of the 1993 Seles Tragedy and it's major impact on women's tennis history in a tennis message board.

I dont think there's anything wrong with that. Debates are good.

 

[LendlFan]

What I will give you is this, Monica (God Bless Her) owned the Austrialian Open & Roland Garros she was unbeatable there against everybody. What she wasn't better than Steffi was at Wimbledon & US Open.

However, I'm curious as to what's your real point? Are you anti-Graf or Pro-Seles? Because if you're anti-Graf then I will no longer contribute to this.
If you are indeed Pro-Seles, then I will be more than happy to discuss Monica's Career and contribute to her praises.

Once again, I am truly a Monica Seles Fan and will remain but I am also a Steffi Graf Fan and Steffi didn't stab Monica nor did she hire that ahole to do it.
What do you think Steffi should have done during the time Monica stayed away, retire until Monica came back? She kept playing as did everybody else. It's not Steffi's fault that she won Slams during her absent.

I truly believe Monica stayed away too long but who's to say how long one must recover. Steffi did her job and if you believe Monica was better than Steffi, that's fine by me. But if you think Steffi's career was a non-factor, then you're out of your freakin mind. Steffi was an excellent competitor and deserving of accomplishments. Whather she was the GOAT or not really doesn't matter, she's looking at 22 Grand Slam Titles sitting on her mantle and nobody can take that away from her.

Heck, maybe Pete would have won a few more Wimbledons if he had not retired for that matter. OR if Andre wasn't so tired from the 4 five set matches he played prior to the Finals, he might have beaten FedEx.

 

[Northerly]

They are both anti-Graf clearly. Anyone who supports Graf is "unstable" or needs to "get a grip".

 

[Northerly]

The only undisputable FACT is that Graf won the series 10-5. And that's what the record books will say. Forever.

 

[tennisballz]

The only undisputable FACT is that Graf won the series 10-5. And that's what the record books will say. Forever.

you are so right. The asterisks behind Graf's 1/2 accomplishments that is Monica Seles will never go away. forever.

 

[jhhachamp]

Maybe Graf ( who was ranked #2) had tougher draws than Seles, and happened to play these girls in earlier rounds...

Do they do women's tennis draws the same as men's where #1 and #2 are basically equal, as are #3 and #4, 5-8, 9-16, etc?

 

[williams planet]

Steffi may be the greatest in terms of numbers, there is no denying that, but at the same time Seles dominated between 1990 and early 1993.

Graf's dominance was on either side of that period, which clearly indicates that Seles was the one to break the Graf stranglehold.

Whats with school girl discussion?? Too much to stomach the facts?

 

[williams planet]

Lendlfan,

The truth was that the head to head between Graf and Seles before the stabbing was 6-4. Graf won her first three matches against Monica ( When Monica was still a 15/16 year old rookie), BUT then LOST the next four of seven.......More importantly, Seles was 3-1 in head to head against Graf in Grand Slam Finals.

Seles, of course, as a teenager in the years 1990 through 1993, had a winning record vs. Graf (4-3) as well before Seles was stabbed. Again, in the years when Seles was 16, 17 and 18 years of age --- those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 --- Seles had the winning record vs. Graf when Graf was in her 20s for the most part. In fact, Seles had a much BETTER record than "Graf against Navratilova" at the same age....when Graf was still challenging Navratilova for the number one ranking. And to think that Navratilova was already in her early 30's.

Graf NEVER had a winning record vs. Navratilova --- not even once in their careers --- Graf drew EVEN with Navratilova in 1989 at 7-7 .... but, then, Navratilova and Seles BOTH had winning records vs. Graf in the matches played during that span of 1990-1993 (before the stabbing).

Arantxa Sanchez Vicario was able to win four matches against Steffi and pushed her to 3 sets on FIVE other occasions... and as for Sabatini, she was able to beat Graf five times during Monica's reign...

The women competed in 5 major events during those years ... these events are the Grand Slam events and the WTA Tour Championships ... Seles won 10 of these 12 major events between November 1990 and April 1993 when she was stabbed.

It was not Monica's fault if ASV, Sabatini and Navratilova were stopping Graf from reaching Seles in the final rounds of these events. Monica beat whoever she played for the most part in those days in the major events -- did not matter if it was Graf or someone who had beaten Graf.

Beginning with the 1990 Tour Championships, Seles won 10 of the 12 major events played until she was stabbed .. and this includes 10 of the 11 major events she entered .. her only loss in these events was the 1992 Wimbledon final to Graf. That is dominance ... Winning the title in 10 of the 11 major events she played between November 1990 and January 1993 -- and her only loss was in a Wimbledon final in 1992 -- that is dominance.

Again, it was not Monica's fault if Graf lost to ASV, Sabatini and Navratilova so much before Seles beat them in the later rounds. And on those few occassions that she was able to face Seles in the finals..What happened? Monica BEAT her.


Seles played Steffi,Martina, Gabby, Arantxa and Jennifer 40 times in 1991-93 (Seles #1 ranking period)
and was 30-10....

Seles was 16-1 in GS and YE WTA champs with same opponents...
in that same period....

bravo, great read.

 

[jhhachamp]

I think the only thing that is safe to assume is that had it not been for the stabbing, Seles would have had a better career than she did and Graf would have had a worse career than she did number wise. It is rather ridiculous to say that Seles would have surely had a better career than Graf. In order to do that, Seles would have had to maintain her level of play for at least 5 more years. Many top women peak early and lose it at pretty young age (think Hingis). Sure, Seles would have won more than 9, and Graf more than likely less than 22, but anything beyond that is almost purely guesswork. It is like saying Federer is definitely going to pass Sampras' grand slam mark when he has a long way to go. He has to maintain his level of play for a long time to have a shot, and I would say the odds are against him. I think Graf would have won around 18 grand slams and Monica maybe 15 without the stabbing. Graf proved she had the longevity to stay at the top for a long time, but there is no way we can know that Seles would have been able to maintain dominance as long as Graf.

 

[williams planet]

I think the only thing that is safe to assume is that had it not been for the stabbing, Seles would have had a better career than she did and Graf would have had a worse career than she did number wise. It is rather ridiculous to say that Seles would have surely had a better career than Graf. In order to do that, Seles would have had to maintain her level of play for at least 5 more years. Many top women peak early and lose it at pretty young age (think Hingis). Sure, Seles would have won more than 9, and Graf more than likely less than 22, but anything beyond that is almost purely guesswork. It is like saying Federer is definitely going to pass Sampras' grand slam mark when he has a long way to go. He has to maintain his level of play for a long time to have a shot, and I would say the odds are against him. I think Graf would have won around 18 grand slams and Monica maybe 15 without the stabbing. Graf proved she had the longevity to stay at the top for a long time, but there is no way we can know that Seles would have been able to maintain dominance as long as Graf.

Graf dominated tennis before 1990, then all of a sudden, she stopped dominating between 1990 and early 1993, and then just as suddenly , once Seles had to leave, Graf bounced back. Coincidence?

That's why the 1993 stabbing perpetrated by a deranged fan was called a TRAGEDY.-- Unprecedented, Cruel, Senseless and Cowardly. One thing is for sure though, it tremendously affected the tennis careers of both Monica and Steffi and dramatically changed the course of a sport.

 

[grandslamchamp]

:mrgreen:the debate goes on.

 

[grandslamchamp]

Speaking of facts, whoever keeps writing that Seles' first Grand Slam title was the 1989 French Open better look that up. Aranxta Sanchez-Vicario won that tournament. If not for Steffi's loss in the finals of that tournament to ASV, Steffi would have won BACK-TO-BACK calendar Grand Slams.

Jeff

Seles' first Grand Slam singles tournament was the 1989 French. And this is not a fact Jeff??? lol, lol, lol,.

tennisballz's post was very accurate. I don't know what you're talking about here. You are confusing Seles' 1st GS tourney entered (1989 French) and Seles' 1st GS WIN which is the (1990 French), lol, lol.

Get you facts STRAIGHT son and look before you leap... lol.

 

[williams planet]

I've always considered Graf as one of the best tennis players in the modern era. Her Golden Slam achievement in 1988 was truly a remarkable feat. But that was before a young brilliant phenomenon-- Monica Seles-- burst into the tennis scene in 1989. Monica Seles have always been considered the more "superior shotmaker" between the two. However, the Monica Seles that came back in 1995 after the horrific stabbing was not the same caliber of player that singlehandedly ruled women's tennis ( Pre-April 1993). But who could really blame Monica after what happened? Monica Seles was ranked number one in the world from 1991 up until the stabbing) and won 7 of the 9 Grand Slams she contested with rival world number two Steffi Graf. Seles also won almost all of the top tier tournaments that mattered including the Season Ending Championships 3 years running. Seles beyond doubt was the best player in women's tennis at the beginning of the 90's decade and clearly on her way to becoming the greatest ever.

 

[Northerly]

Gee, with all the crystal ball certainty on this site, can one of you guys post Saturday's lottery numbers!

No-one will ever know if Seles' domination would have had longevity. The way she was ravaged by injury after she returned from 2 years off suggests she clearly might not have stood up to it for too long.

 

[Rob_C]

Gee, with all the crystal ball certainty on this site, can one of you guys post Saturday's lottery numbers!

No-one will ever know if Seles' domination would have had longevity. The way she was ravaged by injury after she returned from 2 years off suggests she clearly might not have stood up to it for too long.

That's kinda like saying if Federer got stabbed nowadays, and Roddick or Hewitt, or someone else that Fed owns, starts dominating, that the stabbing had nothing to do with it.

Of course it did, to what extent, we'll never know. 50/50 sounds good to me, meaning during the time Monica was gone she would have won 1/2 of the slams she missed, and Graf would have won 50 less of the slams she won while Monica was gone.

Couldnt really see Seles winning Wimby though, not against Graf at least, maybe if Graf got knocked out like she did against McNeil.

 

[williams planet]

That's kinda like saying if Federer got stabbed nowadays, and Roddick or Hewitt, or someone else that Fed owns, starts dominating, that the stabbing had nothing to do with it.

Of course it did, to what extent, we'll never know. 50/50 sounds good to me, meaning during the time Monica was gone she would have won 1/2 of the slams she missed, and Graf would have won 50 less of the slams she won while Monica was gone.

Couldnt really see Seles winning Wimby though, not against Graf at least, maybe if Graf got knocked out like she did against McNeil.

Graf made history when she lost to that supastah Lori McNeil at Wimbledon. Imagine, Conchita Martinez winning Wimby '94. Without a doubt, Seles would have won her share of Wimby crowns if not for the german piece of trash (Parche).