Nadal 0-14 against Federer/Djokovic outside of clay since 2013US/2014AO

0-6 against Federer since 2014 AO, 0-8 against Djokovic since 2013 USO.

I thought about it and then I said it. Discuss.
Any match not played on clay is by definition an immoral match played on an unfair surface. For example, Wimbledon cheated Bull by making him play on a lightning fast surface that was basically an ice rink yesterday. This is unfair because it favors a ballerina over a real man who actually has some muscles. This proves that Bull was the true victor yesterday and in all those matches.
 
And other players usually play a warm up tournament on grass, some of them even more than one, while Nadal is resting. We could use the same logic and say Djokovic and Federer (and every other player who plays on grass) are exhausted during the American HC season because they played a full schedule on grass, while Nadal usually loses early and have more time to recover.

The fact is that he isn't as good on grass as Fedovic, thus his results aren't as impressive.
Matches on grass are way shorter than on clay.
 
Rafa is an all-surface player. And that's a fact. Yes, he is the clay GOAT, but he is still a multi-surface ATG.

Djoker and Fed are better outside of clay than he is, which is no shame. Just like Rafa is much better than them on clay.
As a nadal fan we should have accepted this years ago. Even in his prime he had struggles outside of clay against these guys. Mainly Djokovic. Still an ATG and should have had more slam wins at AO but the cards just didn’t fall that way. We should be happy that he’s still so good on clay in his older age. Nobody could have predicted that.
 
Why no lighter clay schedule then?
Because he knows he has more chances on clay and therefore he willingly decides to play the full schedule on clay, diminishing his chances off clay even more.

I'm just saying a full rested and healthy Nadal off clay is just a different animal from what we know him to be.
 

James695

Rookie
S
Read again because I didn't say that.

He plays too many tiring matches in a row during the clay season. It's not an excuse, it's a fact, whether you like it or not.
So why does the clay season stop him winning AO17? A019? Miami and Indian Wells 17? How is clay relevant at that time of year.

He barely plays the Asian swing anymore and hasn’t been going deep at ATP finals. Why when he has a long period of rest does he still lose off clay to novak and fed every time?
 

James695

Rookie
Read again because I didn't say that.

He plays too many tiring matches in a row during the clay season. It's not an excuse, it's a fact, whether you like it or not.
Also I don’t think you understand what a fact is?

Also if that’s true and being fatigued after clay is the reason....how comes his best level against the two seems to be at wimbeldon, directly after the clay when he should be the most tired? Last years semi against Novak is by far the best he has played against either of them. Doesn’t fit your narrative though.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
Please don't say its a rivalry between fed and Rafa any more. Fed actually owns the guy outside clay despite being 6 years older. That's significant!
 
S


So why does the clay season stop him winning AO17? A019? Miami and Indian Wells 17? How is clay relevant at that time of year.

He barely plays the Asian swing anymore and hasn’t been going deep at ATP finals. Why when he has a long period of rest does he still lose off clay to novak and fed every time?
He needs rest + some matches under his belt. He cannot just show up there at the WTF and beat everyone just like that.

And I'm not saying it affects him in every match played off clay, but fatigue and injuries play an important factor for some periods of time off clay.
 
Also I don’t think you understand what a fact is?

Also if that’s true and being fatigued after clay is the reason....how comes his best level against the two seems to be at wimbeldon, directly after the clay when he should be the most tired? Last years semi against Novak is by far the best he has played against either of them. Doesn’t fit your narrative though.
He took his chances by not playing Queens.

He chose to play rested but with almost 0 practice on grass.
 

James695

Rookie
He needs rest + some matches under his belt. He cannot just show up there at the WTF and beat everyone just like that.

And I'm not saying it affects him in every match played off clay, but fatigue and injuries play an important factor for some periods of time off clay.
But if he started playing less clay would the points he sacrifices maybe lead to a lower ranking that could make it harder for him in the slams? He needs the points.

Fatigue may be a factor as you suggest but people aren’t gonna take it seriously as Federer didn’t get the age/fatigue pass playing two people 4-5 years younger than him as he reached mid-late thirties.

To give Nadal a pass when he is playing someone 4 and a half years older and one year younger in the same stage of his career would be the height of hypocrisy.

Not that I know your individual thoughts of Federer’s age as a factor. Not accusing you of hypocrisy! I’m talking in more general terms about “some” Nadal fans on the site.
 

ghostofMecir

Hall of Fame
I don’t think this is fair. it should be obvious from 2014 on the age difference started to benefit Fed more.
Exactly. Federer unfairly got more time to practice and have his game naturally peak (though he’ll actually peak around 2026 or so). Nadal, too, will get that extra time to practice, so no problems there, no?

On another note, the match record is bad, but how he’s lost is even worse.

0-8 vs. Djokovic on hard courts, 0-15 in sets, .55 Dominance ratio. To compare how futile this is, Lajovic has a .53 dominance ratio vs. Djokovic and a .58 Dominance ratio vs. Nadal in two matches respectively. Nadal has broken serve only 2 times in these 15 sets.

0-5 vs. Federer on hard, .74 Dominance ratio (.58 the last three matches).
 
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James695

Rookie
Exactly. Federer unfairly got more time to practice and have his game naturally peak (though he’ll actually peak around 2026 or so). Nadal, too, will,be that extra time to practice, so no problems there, no?
Federer will peak playing alongside either Lenny or Leo in Wimbledon 2035 men’s doubles.
 
But if he started playing less clay would the points he sacrifices maybe lead to a lower ranking that could make it harder for him in the slams? He needs the points.

Fatigue may be a factor as you suggest but people aren’t gonna take it seriously as Federer didn’t get the age/fatigue pass playing two people 4-5 years younger than him as he reached mid-late thirties.

To give Nadal a pass when he is playing someone 4 and a half years older and one year younger in the same stage of his career would be the height of hypocrisy.

Not that I know your individual thoughts of Federer’s age as a factor. Not accusing you of hypocrisy! I’m talking in more general terms about “some” Nadal fans on the site.
I understand your point, age of course is a factor as is mileage.

Nadal must have a mileage on his body close to Federer's, despite their age difference. Nadal became pro younger and his style of play hasn't helped him either.
 

James695

Rookie
I understand your point, age of course is a factor as is mileage.

Nadal must have a mileage on his body close to Federer's, despite their age difference. Nadal became pro younger and his style of play hasn't helped him either.
It’s amazing he has stayed at the top with that draining style of play for so long. I thought he would be done before 30 when he burst on the scene.

The slowing down of the courts over the last 15 years has helped his results but added a lot more wear on his body. If the courts weren’t as slow maybe he adopts a more aggressive style sooner and would be having better results now.

But then maybe he wouldn’t have three US opens in that scenario. If I was a Nadal fan I’d be fine with how it’s planned out.
 

tex123

Semi-Pro
0-6 against Federer since 2014 AO, 0-8 against Djokovic since 2013 USO.

I thought about it and then I said it. Discuss.
Shows how his movement has declined which was a big factor in his wins. All the changes done to compensate that loss has not been enough. Bring back his 2010 serve and I guarantee you he will dominate. Unfortunately, that gives him shoulder problems.
 

beard

Professional
0-6 against Federer since 2014 AO, 0-8 against Djokovic since 2013 USO.

I thought about it and then I said it. Discuss.
Federer 10-19 on slams against Nadal and Djokovic since.... well, ever....
Hope for nice and round 10-20 from tomorrow....

OP... Nice to see Federer finally developed his game enough to beat his main opposition... Years and experience do miracles :)
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
Why is there no 'ouside of grass' topics? Or 'outside of HC' topics?
:rolleyes:
It's to balance that their meetings don't represent the surface distribution percentage, that's the only reason. If Fed and Rafa played for example 10 times on grass and 1 time at RG, then we would use outside of grass too.

And also mastering two surfaces is exponentially harder , so 5 AO+5 USO is not equal to 10 FO.
If Rafa had 5 AO and 5 FO, that is way superior than 9 FO and 1 AO for example. It's the same as mastering two languages versus just one. It's so much harder.
 

beard

Professional
If only Federer was 32 and Nadal/Djokovic 37/38, beating up on an old man like a bunch of lousy criminals.
I know, I know... Age excuse, age excuses everywhere... Unuversal answer for all tennis troubles Fed had since first defeats from Rafole, ie when he becomes old at 27... And almost forgotten mono @KINGROGER tm :giggle:
 

Keystoner

Rookie
Read again because I didn't say that.

He plays too many tiring matches in a row during the clay season. It's not an excuse, it's a fact, whether you like it or not.
People like this live in a speculative hypothetical world. It's what makes for forum and morning sports radio entertainment. So, Nadal would be better if he didn't play so much? I'm sure someone will speculatively disagree with you.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Read again because I didn't say that.

He plays too many tiring matches in a row during the clay season. It's not an excuse, it's a fact, whether you like it or not.
Well, he lost several times in the clay season this year. Rome was his first clay final, so you can throw that excuse out the window.
 

Keystoner

Rookie
Also I don’t think you understand what a fact is?

Also if that’s true and being fatigued after clay is the reason....how comes his best level against the two seems to be at wimbeldon, directly after the clay when he should be the most tired? Last years semi against Novak is by far the best he has played against either of them. Doesn’t fit your narrative though.
I agree. The word "too" makes his whole assertion an opinion, not a fact. And he was so sure it was a fact. I love that "whether you like it or not" part.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Why is 'ouside of clay' considered a topic? Clay makes up a decent portion of the calendar as well. A loss is a loss on any surface. Accept it :cool:
Of course clay counts its justve now seem to be in a situation where Nadal wins on clay all the time but doesnt on grass or HC. For a good few years Nadal was competitive with Federer on Hc and though he nearly always trailed Djokovic, he still had some big wins. Grass is trickier to judge since there have been less meetings but certainly a lot of people would have assumed that after Wimbledon 2008, Nadal would have the edge over Federer

Ah the good old 2015 season, where Nadal still showed up to face his rivals despite playing pathetic for almost 2 years.

Pity Djokovic didn't see Nadal in his 2017-18 slump period as much, or there would've been beatdown on every surface.
Well he met Djokovic a few times in 2015 but only met Federer once and didnt actually play badly. He did however meet Fed 4 times In 2013 when fed was really struggling and he did meet Nole a couple of times in Nole's slump too
 

JackGates

Hall of Fame
If federer and Djokovic dont make it far enough to play Nadal what can Nadal do lol.

Im obviously on your mind all the time lol.
Lucky for Nadal, since he is 0-14 versus them away from clay since 2014. So, you want him to be 0-25? So, praise the lord that they didn't reach Nadal, you should be happy.
 
If federer and Djokovic dont make it far enough to play Nadal what can Nadal do lol.
Lol just when Nadal literally just failed to make the final of Wimbledon to take his routine straight set beatdown by Djokovic :laughing:.

Also you do realise he is 0-14. If they met more he would be 0-20 :laughing:

Don't worry Nadal wont be tanking USO he knows that he can't risk Djokovic pushing Nadal to 3rd wheel status even more and will try and beat Djokovic (will likely recieve a straiht set beatdown though sadly :cry:)
 

Pantera

Banned
Lucky for Nadal, since he is 0-14 versus them away from clay since 2014. So, you want him to be 0-25? So, praise the lord that they didn't reach Nadal, you should be happy.
Neither can beat Nadal at USO. Djokovic has a chance but his record in finals there is poor . Federer doesnt even make semis there now.
 

Pantera

Banned
Lol just when Nadal literally just failed to make the final of Wimbledon to take his routine straight set beatdown by Djokovic :laughing:.

Don't worry Nadal wont be tanking USO he knows that he can't risk Djokovic pushing Nadal to 3rd wheel status even more and will try and beat Djokovic (will likely recieve a straiht set beatdown though sadly :cry:)
Nadal 2-1 Djokovic at USO...i know this hurts but its a fact. Roll on New York eh.

That 3rd USO still bothers nadal haters...i love it tbh
 
Neither can beat Nadal at USO. Djokovic has a chance but his record in finals there is poor . Federer doesnt even make semis there now.
Nadals only hope of another USO, wimbeldon or AO is meeting no top 25 players and then Anderson in the final :cry:. He has a good shot at RG if he continues to meet Thiem in the finals :cry:
 

Rago

Hall of Fame
Neither can beat Nadal at USO. Djokovic has a chance but his record in finals there is poor.
Please save yourself from further embarrassment.

Djokovic HAS beaten Nadal at USO before and would have delivered a straight set beatdown had they met last year (scoreline would resemble AO'19 or something like that).
 

Pantera

Banned
Please save yourself from further embarrassment.

Djokovic HAS beaten Nadal at USO before and would have delivered a straight set beatdown had they met last year (scoreline would resemble AO'19 or something like that).
Coulda woulda shoulda...reality is 3 finals Nadal has 2. Nadal starts favourite. Nobody has more USOs than Nadal in recent history. Thats a statement of fact.
 
Nadal 2-1 Djokovic at USO...i know this hurts but its a fact. Roll on New York eh.

That 3rd USO still bothers nadal haters...i love it tbh
I think what bothers Djokovic fans is not so much the record as the mileage that Nadal fans try to get out of the record. It's such a low n that not much should be drawn from it. In a series of three matches, luck plays a big part. If they had played 10 matches at the US Open and Nadal had won seven of them, that would be far more meaningful. No Djokovic fan disputes that Nadal's 6-1 record against him at Roland Garros is a very strong indicator of Nadal's superiority there. But when there have been only three matches and it is a 2-1 split rather than 3-0, Djokovic fans are warranted in insisting that the overall record matters far more. Put it this way: which bothers you more about Nadal's record at Wimbledon - that Djokovic leads him 2-1 in the head to head or that Djokovic leads him 4-2 in titles, 6-5 in finals, and 9-7 in semi-finals?
 

Rago

Hall of Fame
Nadal starts favourite. Nobody has more USOs than Nadal in recent history. Thats a statement of fact.
LMAO; what utter nonsense. Djokovic has 3 titles at Flushing including the most recent one.

Do you even follow tennis besides one player?
 
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