Nadal and Djokovic would not have survived the 80's and 90's - Becker

TheFifthSet

Legend
I don't know. He's basically a much better version of Tsonga, and Tsonga has been able to stay consistently in the top ten, win a Masters, and make a number of deep runs in slams in this era. Becker, with a better serve, better return, and an infinitely better backhand, would definitely still be able to win slams.
Not to mention better net game, better movement, and stronger between the ears.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Yeah, not now, but he was undeniably an aggressive baseliner back in the day. Watch the '07 Miami QF match versus Nadal.
I agree, i think both Nole and Nadal were more aggressive in 2008 and before than after 08; and both less successful as well...
 

tenisu

New User
They won't be as successful...

Just like Becker won't be as successful in this era...

And the fact is...they play in whatever era they are born into...

I don't know why anybody, be it pros or keyboard warriors, would want to hypothetically take players out of an era and place them somewhere else just to somehow belittle their achievements...

Unless there is some motivation.
This so many times.
Everyone, pros or otherwise, keep extrapolating these what-if scenarios as though no one has ever heard of confounding variables.
People are nothing without their external context. They grow up training and adapting their game to the current conditions they have to play in.

What is the point in all of this other than a fanboy's wet dream?
 

5555

Hall of Fame
and...

your point?

Federer can believe what he wants, but Nole is not a natural attacker especially not now!

He plays aggressively against Federer, however his game is a defensive baseliner who can and will go for his shots...
1. Your statement is not a fact but just your opinion
2. Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert
3. Federer's opinion is relevant because he is a tennis expert

Djokovic is a agressive baseliner now. Go to Google http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=djokovic+aggressive+baseliner&oq=djokovic+aggressive+baseliner&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.3.8844.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.les;..0.0...1c.v02m6kJAVe4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=fb4ee4705f4bfa78&bpcl=38897761&biw=1680&bih=895

Watch the '07 Miami QF match versus Nadal.
Full match here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irMTThmEkxo
 
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D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
1. Your statement is not a fact but just your opinion
2. Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert
3. Federer's opinion is relevant because he is a tennis expert

Djokovic is a agressive baseliner now. Go to Google http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=djokovic+aggressive+baseliner&oq=djokovic+aggressive+baseliner&gs_l=serp.12...0.0.3.8844.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.les;..0.0...1c.v02m6kJAVe4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=fb4ee4705f4bfa78&bpcl=38897761&biw=1680&bih=895



Full match here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irMTThmEkxo
Djokovic is a defensive player. He used to be aggressive back in 2007/2008.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert. Federer said of Djokovic: “We both play aggressive tennis" http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-11/roger-federer-defeats-andy-murray-faces-djokovic-in-atp.html
Did he say "Djokovic plays aggressive tennis against everybody"? No. He did not, he said "we both play aggressive tennis"; which could mean they both have to switch to that kind of tennis when playing each other because being defensive is ineffective.
 

BeHappy

Hall of Fame
This is exactly the path novak has taken and what a great path it has turned out to be.
It could shorten his career though. It worked for Lendl who made the same switch to boring defensive pusher tennis and had the same success as Djoker and Lendl played till 34 though, so maybe not.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.

djokovic2008

Hall of Fame
You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Yes and there are just as many experts who classify him as an agressive baseliner which he is. You cannot be number 1 and win as many slams and many comebacks from match point down if you are a defensive player you need weapons which djoker has.
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
Yes and there are just as many experts who classify him as an agressive baseliner which he is. You cannot be number 1 and win as many slams and many comebacks from match point down if you are a defensive player you need weapons which djoker has.
Try reading...

I and others have stated that Nole has weapons and can and will pull the trigger. However, at heart he is a defensive player nowadays. An aggressive baseliner was a player like Agassi or peak Delpo/Solderling. Nole depends more on defense than those players...
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Djokovic is probably a more defensively great baseliner than offensive, but in no way is he just a defensive player. He has very good offense. His groundstrokes can overpower virtually everyone, his returning is superb, he is willing to go to net, and his serve can be a weapon on a good day. Just check his winners stats, other than sometimes Federer, he usually always leads his opponents in that.
 

Huanita99

Rookie
hm, Nova is, defense/offense, offense, defense. got it? no weaknesses at all, the most complete player nowadays (unless we talk about his smashes that could be hilarious at the time). he adopts to who ever he plays.

and he moves, like oh boy, like a puma. I think I'm having an orgasm when I think about his movement, lol.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I think in the back-court, lateral movement wise, tsonga and becker are about even .... as far as forward movement goes, tsonga is clearly better ...
 

5555

Hall of Fame
Did he say "Djokovic plays aggressive tennis against everybody"? No. He did not, he said "we both play aggressive tennis"; which could mean they both have to switch to that kind of tennis when playing each other because being defensive is ineffective.
Tennis.com: "Djokovic is at his most lethal on hard courts. A take-charge service return and an aggressive ground game enable him to push opponents back and batter them into submission." http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/08/2012-us-open-player-previews-novak-djokovic/39010/

defensive pusher tennis
Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert.

You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?

Djokovic is probably a more defensively great baseliner than offensive
Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert.
 

kiki

Banned
I think in the back-court, lateral movement wise, tsonga and becker are about even .... as far as forward movement goes, tsonga is clearly better ...
Becker has two little things in between his legs that Tsonga can only dream of...not to mention a far better serve,ROs and a decent volley.
 

fps

Legend
Just to crash in about the original post....

This stuff doesn't matter. If the surfaces now were as they were then, we would be talking about different players anyway, because Rafa and Novak wouldn't be doing as well.

In other words, this era against other eras is a dumb argument because the best players on a given surface rise to the top and the surfaces Becker played on barely get an airing now. If the courts had been slower in Becker's time, it's not a question of whether Becker would have adapted, because there's no guarantee he would have been part of the conversation when it comes to top players.
 
N

NadalAgassi

Guest
Your opinion is irrelevant because you are not a tennis expert.
LOL and you think YOU are. Apparently you cant read, I was actually defending Djokovic's offensive abilities by saying he was very good offensively as well as defensively, moreso than others on this thread were saying. So if that apparently isnt good enough for you, what the heck do you want someone to say, that he is even better an attacker than defender. You truly are a blind Djokovic fanatic if that is the case, even his other ardent fans on this forum (the sane ones) like Ripster and Towser and others wouldnt say that. As for what experts think name me one single expert on the planet who says Djokovic is a greater attacking player than defensive one. Good luck, you will need it (barring making something up). PS- McEnroe calling Djokovic the best returner ever does not equate to calling him a better attacking player than defender, sorry.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Becker has two little things in between his legs that Tsonga can only dream of...not to mention a far better serve,ROs and a decent volley.
a better serve, yes, far better, don't think so ...

obviously a much better RoS and a better volley ..

that wasn't the 'point of dispute' in the discussion though .... only their movement was .........
 

kiki

Banned
a better serve, yes, far better, don't think so ...

obviously a much better RoS and a better volley ..

that wasn't the 'point of dispute' in the discussion though .... only their movement was .........
I agree Tsonga is a far better mover than Becker.And more reliable from the baseline, too.But not in the same league overall.
 

The-Champ

Legend
Becker has two little things in between his legs that Tsonga can only dream of...not to mention a far better serve,ROs and a decent volley.
It should be the opposite. The size of Tsonga's thing between his legs is something Boris can only dream of.


Anyway, Becker is the better player overall, but movement-wise Tsonga is superior. Tsonga covers the court almost as good as the top 4.
 

Huanita99

Rookie
Just to crash in about the original post....

This stuff doesn't matter. If the surfaces now were as they were then, we would be talking about different players anyway, because Rafa and Novak wouldn't be doing as well.

In other words, this era against other eras is a dumb argument because the best players on a given surface rise to the top and the surfaces Becker played on barely get an airing now. If the courts had been slower in Becker's time, it's not a question of whether Becker would have adapted, because there's no guarantee he would have been part of the conversation when it comes to top players.
Novak would. he is too good. with his speed and movement and his fantastic ROS, yeah he would. agree with you about different eras and surfaces tho.
 

kiki

Banned
It should be the opposite. The size of Tsonga's thing between his legs is something Boris can only dream of.


Anyway, Becker is the better player overall, but movement-wise Tsonga is superior. Tsonga covers the court almost as good as the top 4.
I believe all races are equal:)
 

5555

Hall of Fame
As for what experts think name me one single expert on the planet who says Djokovic is a greater attacking player than defensive one.
After 20 days you still have not replied to this post http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6995767&postcount=265

You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?
 

5555

Hall of Fame
You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?
 
He is right but that's because the game was different back then, and its not that way now. That is why those two dominate in their era not another one.
 

5555

Hall of Fame
You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?
 

5555

Hall of Fame
You, and your interpertation of Federer's opinion, are out numbered; regardless of your insults!

There are many pros, or as you say tennis experts, who would classify Nole as a great defensive player vs being a 'natural attacker'...
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?

PS This is the last time I asked you the question. If you do not provide proof, I will conclude you lost the argument considering that I'm making negative claim.
 
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DRII

G.O.A.T.
Have you got proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player?

PS This is the last time I asked you the question. If you do not provide proof, I will conclude you lost the argument considering that I'm making negative claim.

This is not about losing or winning an argument. If thats your goal i suggest you find something else more productive to occupy your time...

Perhaps you should watch some tennis matches and listen to former pros who commentate!

If we're going by 'old school' standards almost none of the players from this era would be considered natural attackers! Including Federer, who is the most offensive of the top players. None of them hardly ever serve and volley or even come to the net that much at all compared to past players -- even the great baseliners from the past like Borg came to the net more often.
 
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5555

Hall of Fame
Perhaps you should watch some tennis matches and listen to former pros who commentate!
Tennis.com:
"Djokovic is at his most lethal on hard courts. A take-charge service return and an aggressive ground game enable him to push opponents back and batter them into submission."
http://www.tennis.com/news/2012/08/2012-us-open-player-previews-novak-djokovic/39010/

This is not about losing or winning an argument. If thats your goal i suggest you find something else more productive to occupy your time...

Perhaps you should watch some tennis matches and listen to former pros who commentate!

If we're going by 'old school' standards almost none of the players from this era would be considered natural attackers! Including Federer, who is the most offensive of the top players. None of them hardly ever serve and volley or even come to the net that much at all compared to past players -- even the great baseliners from the past like Borg came to the net more often.
You failed to provide proof that many tennis experts regard Djokovic as a defensive player, so you lost the argument.
 
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Winners or Errors

Hall of Fame
“Even in defense, he stays somewhat offensive,” Federer, a record six-time winner of the Tour Finals, told reporters. “It’s what separates him from the rest a little bit.”

Fed on Djoker after this year's WTF final.
 
D

Deleted member 307496

Guest
“Even in defense, he stays somewhat offensive,” Federer, a record six-time winner of the Tour Finals, told reporters. “It’s what separates him from the rest a little bit.”

Fed on Djoker after this year's WTF final.
Interesting.
 

ppmishra

Rookie
Becker would be destroyed by Novak in any conditions, he's not really the smartest man in the world, better for him to shut up.
Really? Becker won the Australian open twice by playing predominantly from the baseline (more than matched lendl from the baseline) and mixing it up with smart tactical all court play (against Chang, lendl too) on a high bouncing medium to medium slow surface. Sure, it was not molasses slow like 2012 but both Boris and Pete won twice and had the tools to hit thru any baseliner on a good day. I think he knows a bit more about tennis than either of us.
 

Clay lover

Hall of Fame
Why revive this thread? On a side note, I can't stand the hubris of people who always presume that the conditions they love / have played in should be the DEFAULT set of conditions used to judge a player's ability. Why else would they be making statements like "player X wouldn't adapt blah blah blah"?

Good on the poster who said Becker wouldn't adapt in today's conditions too. It works both ways dude. Yes maybe homogenised conditions aren't ideal, but it in no way delegitimizes them either.

Federer having "classic" technique has been and will always remain a myth.
 

Federer and Del Potro

Talk Tennis Guru
Really? Becker won the Australian open twice by playing predominantly from the baseline (more than matched lendl from the baseline) and mixing it up with smart tactical all court play (against Chang, lendl too) on a high bouncing medium to medium slow surface. Sure, it was not molasses slow like 2012 but both Boris and Pete won twice and had the tools to hit thru any baseliner on a good day. I think he knows a bit more about tennis than either of us.
Did you just reply to an 8 year old thread to a guy that hasn’t logged in for 5 years?

:-D
 

Clay lover

Hall of Fame
Why revive this thread? On a side note, I can't stand the hubris of people who always presume that the conditions they love / have played in should be the DEFAULT set of conditions used to judge a player's ability. Why else would they be making statements like "player X wouldn't adapt blah blah blah"?

Good on the poster who said Becker wouldn't adapt in today's conditions too. It works both ways dude. Yes maybe homogenised conditions aren't ideal, but it in no way delegitimizes them either.

Federer having "classic" technique has been and will always remain a myth.
To correct myself though, Becker isn't one of those people. He merely stated it matter-of-factly to praise Federer's versatility. I don't agree with his opinion though.
 
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