Nadal and the BH DTL

[dominikk1985]

I just analyzed a nadal vs. fed match (2008 FO final) because I'm a lefty myself and wanted to get a pointer for strategy.

not surprisingly out of the FH corner nadal hit about 2/3rd of the shots CC to feds BH and 1/3rd DTL which is of course nothing spectacular. the CC is the more natural shot anyway in tennis and it goes to feds BH which is an additional benefit.

it gets more interesting when fed played into nadals BH corner which he also did more than 60% of the time. If fed played his own BH DTL nadal would use CC and DTL about 50-50. sometimes he would spin it back DTL and sometimes whack it CC into the open FH corner.

if fed however came to play a CC FH himself into nadals BH (the ideal scenario of course for him) nadal played an astounding 75% of his own BHs (and also run around FHs) DTL into feds BH. this is interesting because as I said the CC is the more natural shot, a change of direction is always hard (see the directionals guy) especially with the BH.

with that strategy nadal (who has great footspeed of course) dares fed to hit into the open FH corner starting the CC into BH game again or DTL from where nadal uses both options with his BH.

people always talk about how nadal wins by hooking his FH CC into feds BH. that is true to some extend, however if given the chance fed plays CC into nadals BH just as often.

the interesting thing is how nadal is able to turn those rallies into feds BH (fed of course tries to pull it into the other CC rally because he is not stupid) by the use of nadals DTL BH.

could hitting more DTL with the BH be a good strategy for rec players if they face opposite handed opponents (L vs R or R vs L doesn't really matter all strategies work for both sides)?

 

[Topspin Shot]

Sure. If you're main strategy going into a match is to attack the other guy's backhand, then do it as much as you can. If that means hitting your backhand down the line because you're playing a lefty, go ahead, provided you can do it without making errors. The goal here is obviously not to hit an aggressive ball but rather to hit a rally ball that clears the net by a lot, has a fair amount of spin to drop it well inside the baseline, and is aimed well away from the sideline. If you want a good example of the attack the backhand strategy, go on Youtube and watch Matt Lin playing Joseph Di Giulio. Di Giulio goes to Lin's backhand like there's no tomorrow and wins the match easily. Di Giulio is the better player to begin with, but still the strategy is very transparent. Note that they're both righties, but still, it's a good example of this kind of strategy. I can name these guys since they're both in college now, right?

 

[dominikk1985]

Sure. If you're main strategy going into a match is to attack the other guy's backhand, then do it as much as you can. If that means hitting your backhand down the line because you're playing a lefty, go ahead, provided you can do it without making errors. The goal here is obviously not to hit an aggressive ball but rather to hit a rally ball that clears the net by a lot, has a fair amount of spin to drop it well inside the baseline, and is aimed well away from the sideline. If you want a good example of the attack the backhand strategy, go on Youtube and watch Matt Lin playing Joseph Di Giulio. Di Giulio goes to Lin's backhand like there's no tomorrow and wins the match easily. Di Giulio is the better player to begin with, but still the strategy is very transparent. Note that they're both righties, but still, it's a good example of this kind of strategy. I can name these guys since they're both in college now, right?

thanks I will look into that match. you are right that nadal doesn't really hit a sharp DTL a lot but most often a high and spinny ball about 4-5 feet over the net. if he goes CC on the other hand he will often flatten it out more.

 

[Maximagq]

Yeah, it's a really effective strategy. Hit a high, heavy ball up the line with the forehand and break down the other guy's backhand. It's tough to be on the receiving end haha.

 

[user92626]

could hitting more DTL with the BH be a good strategy for rec players if they face opposite handed opponents (L vs R or R vs L doesn't really matter all strategies work for both sides)?

Yes! In fact I'm a leftie and I use this strategy quite naturally. It doesn't take long to observe that most people's bhs are crappy. That realization also gives you the realization that you also need to improve your own bh, protect your bh side and learn to run around it whenever you could. The better man wins.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Yeah, it's a really effective strategy. Hit a high, heavy ball up the line with the forehand and break down the other guy's backhand. It's tough to be on the receiving end haha.

Hey Matt. Sorry to use you as my example, but your videos are so good I couldn't resist.

 

[Maximagq]

Hey Matt. Sorry to use you as my example, but your videos are so good I couldn't resist.

No worries man haha

 

[dominikk1985]

Yes! In fact I'm a leftie and I use this strategy quite naturally. It doesn't take long to observe that most people's bhs are crappy. That realization also gives you the realization that you also need to improve your own bh, protect your bh side and learn to run around it whenever you could. The better man wins.

my natural instinct is to hit an angle CC BH. I also like to play IO FHs so both of those strategies are probably playing into my opponents hands.

I think I will try to go DTL more out of my BH corner the next match I play. the play out my FH corner is quite a nobrainer as a lefty but I think I could change my play out of the BH corner a little to use my FH more.

 

[user92626]

Hit CC BH if 1. your opponent is leftie, 2. they appear to camp and defend their bh too well, say after 2 shots. You need to hit one cc to open up, 3. you're being pressured and tied down to your bh side too much,ie you'll make your own ue if you try another dtl and it's not optimal to hit to the middle either.

 

[5263]

I think I will try to go DTL more out of my BH corner the next match I play. the play out my FH corner is quite a nobrainer as a lefty but I think I could change my play out of the BH corner a little to use my FH more.

Key here is that you are not trying to rip a winner dtl, but only to that side of the court to force him to hit a Bh....so you don't have to flirt with the danger of being near any lines or big power to do this...therefore reducing the risk of dtl change of direction.

 

[mikeler]

Two more things Nadal does well to favor his forehand against righties:

1. If he sees them going to the slice backhand, he dares them to hit a cross court winner by cheating all the way over to his backhand side. Most of the time he knows they are trying to play a slice down the line to his backhand so he will be in good position on the next shot unless they hit it very close to the sideline and low.

2. When right handers serve on the ad side, they tend to normally stand halfway between the center line and side line to get serves out wide to the backhand of fellow righties. This is a liability against Nadal, who knows that even if he runs around his backhand and hits a neutral forehand off a 2nd serve, he is still in the middle of the court. If he tried to hit forehands off the 2nd serve in the deuce court, he might end up in the stands.

 

[HughJars]

I don't think this is a realistic strategy to attempt for a rec player. Its not a percentage play to go down the line with the backhand in any situation other attacking the net on approach shots:
a) its more likely to be a weaker/less consistent shot at these levels.
b) Youre hitting over a higher part of the net, and over a shorter length of court (as opposed to the diagonal CC length of court)

 

[Topspin Shot]

I don't think this is a realistic strategy to attempt for a rec player. Its not a percentage play to go down the line with the backhand in any situation other attacking the net on approach shots:
a) its more likely to be a weaker/less consistent shot at these levels.
b) Youre hitting over a higher part of the net, and over a shorter length of court (as opposed to the diagonal CC length of court)

It can be done by some rec players, that is those with strong backhands, but you're right in that you can only hit what you have the tools to hit if you want to win.

 

[spun_out]

I don't think this is a realistic strategy to attempt for a rec player. Its not a percentage play to go down the line with the backhand in any situation other attacking the net on approach shots:
a) its more likely to be a weaker/less consistent shot at these levels.
b) Youre hitting over a higher part of the net, and over a shorter length of court (as opposed to the diagonal CC length of court)

I'm not sure what level you play, but do you slice a floater DTL to the opponent's backhand? Or just dink/bunt the backhands DTL? I think that for a rec level player with a 2hbh, these no power shots are very hard to deal with.

Also, I don't really buy the higher part of the net thing at the rec level. The balls are going slow enough that you can hit higher over the net with not much spin, and it will still go in. I think that at lower levels, it always pays to go after the weakness even at the cost of your strength because the weakness is just so weak (i.e. way weaker than your strength is strong).

 

[HughJars]

I'm not sure what level you play, but do you slice a floater DTL to the opponent's backhand? Or just dink/bunt the backhands DTL? I think that for a rec level player with a 2hbh, these no power shots are very hard to deal with.

Also, I don't really buy the higher part of the net thing at the rec level. The balls are going slow enough that you can hit higher over the net with not much spin, and it will still go in. I think that at lower levels, it always pays to go after the weakness even at the cost of your strength because the weakness is just so weak (i.e. way weaker than your strength is strong).

As I alluded to, I dont go down the line with my backhand - it isn't that consistent yet. I play the percentages and go CC to maintain a neutral rally. I still try to attack the opponent's backhand when balls are hit to me in the middle. On the approach on the ad court I will prefer to try get round to my forehand if I can or look to use the DTL slice, particularly on grass which I play most, then come into the net and volley.

At the rec level the margin for error is much smaller, so you have an even greater need to play the percentages to maintain consistency, so the height of the net is even more relevant, not less I reckon!

 

[dominikk1985]

I don't think this is a realistic strategy to attempt for a rec player. Its not a percentage play to go down the line with the backhand in any situation other attacking the net on approach shots:
a) its more likely to be a weaker/less consistent shot at these levels.
b) Youre hitting over a higher part of the net, and over a shorter length of court (as opposed to the diagonal CC length of court)

Yes, I think you need a certain level to pull it off, I would say 4.0-4.5 when FHs start to become a weapon and hitting the BH makes sense. at the levels below that keeping the ball in play CC no matter which side is probably the higher percentage strategy.

 

[spun_out]

Yes, I think you need a certain level to pull it off, I would say 4.0-4.5 when FHs start to become a weapon and hitting the BH makes sense. at the levels below that keeping the ball in play CC no matter which side is probably the higher percentage strategy.

What I see when I hit with people 3.5-low 4.0 is that they have more problems hitting a decent CC shot than dinking a backhand DTL. Yet, they insist on this CC rally, whether righty vs. righty or righty vs. lefty. A CC rally ball hit in the middle of the court is a very attackable shot and is to be avoided.

And I still think that the margin for error is pretty large at the rec level, and not smaller as HughJars states. Of course, if you are 3.5 trying to execute 4.0 level shots, sure, the margin gets smaller, but my point is that the quality of the shot doesn't matter as much at the rec level as the direction of the shot. If you can hit a 3.0 backhand DTL, it is unlikely that your 3.5 (or even a 4.0) opponent will punish you for it.

 

[HughJars]

What I see when I hit with people 3.5-low 4.0 is that they have more problems hitting a decent CC shot than dinking a backhand DTL. Yet, they insist on this CC rally, whether righty vs. righty or righty vs. lefty. A CC rally ball hit in the middle of the court is a very attackable shot and is to be avoided.

And I still think that the margin for error is pretty large at the rec level, and not smaller as HughJars states. Of course, if you are 3.5 trying to execute 4.0 level shots, sure, the margin gets smaller, but my point is that the quality of the shot doesn't matter as much at the rec level as the direction of the shot. If you can hit a 3.0 backhand DTL, it is unlikely that your 3.5 (or even a 4.0) opponent will punish you for it.

Um, I would of thought attempting cross court rallies as opposed to offering simple dinks up the line would be the preferred intention of any player wanting to improve their game, and something advocated by any coach.

Keep dinking up the line, I'm not sure your going to get any great rating improvements.

Id say you're more likely to lose points from slow dinks up the line than cross court shots that land short. Again, its a higher net, and you have less court to play with, and the technical ability required to change the direction of the ball is more complex, especially when you're on the run.

Or you can do the opposite and learn to play the percentages by developing the ability to maintain a cross court rally - a play than holds true right up to the highest levels.

 

[spun_out]

Um, I would of thought attempting cross court rallies as opposed to offering simple dinks up the line would be the preferred intention of any player wanting to improve their game, and something advocated by any coach.

Keep dinking up the line, I'm not sure your going to get any great rating improvements.

Id say you're more likely to lose points from slow dinks up the line than cross court shots that land short. Again, its a higher net, and you have less court to play with, and the technical ability required to change the direction of the ball is more complex, especially when you're on the run.

Or you can do the opposite and learn to play the percentages by developing the ability to maintain a cross court rally - a play than holds true right up to the highest levels.

Don't forget that this is a discussion about righty vs. lefty in match play. The assumption is that forehand is a better shot for both than the backhand. So what you are saying is that you should choose to hit your weakness against your opponent's strength because it is the higher percentage shot.

Also, while it is true that you should implement things into matches that you worked on in practice, match is a match and practice is practice. If you want to work on crosscourt shots, then do it in practice. By the same token, though, you can work on your DTL backhands in practice, too. I just don't see why gaining the ability to hit various shots won't improve your rating. Ultimately, matches should be a place where you learn to problem solve and learn how to win. If you are playing the percentages and losing majority of your points, then what percentages are you really playing?

 

[Avles]

BH slice DTL seems like a good option against opposite-handed players-- it's high percentage and will be hard to attack. If it has any sidespin it will kick further toward their BH which is a little bonus.

Against a lefty who favors his forehand, hitting only CC backhands doesn't sound like a winning proposition.

 

[dominikk1985]

yes I'm talking about the LR matchup. in the RR or LL matchup it is different of course although the guy that played matt lin also hit a ton of DTL FHs to Matts BH.

in a RR matchup the CC BH is a very good shot possibly even the most important rally shot at the higher levels because it is usually the safest option to maintain a neutral rally (FH is often more dangerous).

but in a LR (or vice versa) matchup the CC BH can be a dangerous shot because you hit right into the opponents FH who can pin you into the BH corner (unless you are novak djokovic and your BH is so good that you can take on nadal or Feds CC FH in a rally).

 

[Avles]

See also point 4 here: http://www.tennis.com/your-game/2009/07/how-to-beat-a-lefty/17426/#.UrRbgvRDtjg

And this thread is interesting-- a 5.0 lefty asking for tips on dealing with the the DTL BH slice: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=294083

 

[tennis_hack]

I love playing lefties who hit to my backhand at all costs because my forehand is much weaker. It gives me a ton of practice at hitting head-height backhands, which is my favorite shot in the game.

Funny how all lefties seem to assume that everyone's backhand is the worse shot.

 

[spun_out]

I love playing lefties who hit to my backhand at all costs because my forehand is much weaker. It gives me a ton of practice at hitting head-height backhands, which is my favorite shot in the game.

Funny how all lefties seem to assume that everyone's backhand is the worse shot.

But don't forget that Djokovic often runs around his backhands to hit forehands and so does Gasquet. Wozniacki runs around her forehands however.

 

[moonballs]

Yes, I think you need a certain level to pull it off, I would say 4.0-4.5 when FHs start to become a weapon and hitting the BH makes sense. at the levels below that keeping the ball in play CC no matter which side is probably the higher percentage strategy.

Even if it is playing into the lefties forehand?

 

[5263]

But don't forget that Djokovic often runs around his backhands to hit forehands and so does Gasquet. .

yes, but what is your point?

 

[spun_out]

yes, but what is your point?

I'm saying that just because your backhand is your favorite shot and is better than other backhands, that does not mean that it is better than an average forehand at your level, especially as you go up the levels.

 

[5263]

I'm saying that just because your backhand is your favorite shot and is better than other backhands, that does not mean that it is better than an average forehand at your level, especially as you go up the levels.

Maybe....but..just because you run around to hit a Fh doesn't mean your Fh is better than your Bh either.

 

[spun_out]

Maybe....but..just because you run around to hit a Fh doesn't mean your Fh is better than your Bh either.

Well, you're right that better is a complicated term. However, it's also true that they don't run around their forehands to hit backhands so it's not about court positioning or creating angles.

 

[5263]

However, it's also true that they don't run around their forehands to hit backhands so it's not about court positioning or creating angles.

Are you sure? Isn't that exactly what DJ is doing when he runs around to hit his Fh? I know he has improved it, but his Bh is still better... but the Fh is more versatile.

 

[spun_out]

Are you sure? Isn't that exactly what DJ is doing when he runs around to hit his Fh? I know he has improved it, but his Bh is still better... but the Fh is more versatile.

I guess my comment should have read creating angles BASED ON court positioning to avoid confusion. What I am saying is that Djokovic encounters situations where running around the forehand to hit the backhand will create better angles (similar to when he runs around the backhand), but he doesn't do this. And yes, the forehand is more versatile as you state. I believe that if Djokovic had two forehands (righty and lefty) of the same quality with his current forehand without any real disadvantages of two forehands, he would be a better player.

 

[dominikk1985]

Well, you're right that better is a complicated term. However, it's also true that they don't run around their forehands to hit backhands so it's not about court positioning or creating angles.

because of the more "wristy" nature of the FH you can disguise the shot better and also create better angles.

I think with the modern FH you have better disguise because the forearm roll and wrist action allows last second adjustments while with the BH you will usually swing more straight through the ball, in many cases even have the feet aligned with the hitting direction which allows the opponent to see the direction earlier.

also it is harder to generate extreme angles and spin with the 2HBH because the wrist is more restricted by the other hand.

 

[5263]

I believe that if Djokovic had two forehands (righty and lefty) of the same quality with his current forehand without any real disadvantages of two forehands, he would be a better player.

Hard to say on that, especially now that his Fh is much more solid, but there was a time where his Fh would breakdown on him at times and wilt a bit under pressure. Bh was clearly his stronger and more dependable shot...but he still regularly ran around it at times to work certain patterns of play.

So even thought the Bh was overall better shot imo, he stilled relied on his Fh over the Bh to run certain patterns.

 

[HughJars]

I just analyzed a nadal vs. fed match (2008 FO final) because I'm a lefty myself and wanted to get a pointer for strategy.

not surprisingly out of the FH corner nadal hit about 2/3rd of the shots CC to feds BH and 1/3rd DTL which is of course nothing spectacular. the CC is the more natural shot anyway in tennis and it goes to feds BH which is an additional benefit.

it gets more interesting when fed played into nadals BH corner which he also did more than 60% of the time. If fed played his own BH DTL nadal would use CC and DTL about 50-50. sometimes he would spin it back DTL and sometimes whack it CC into the open FH corner.

if fed however came to play a CC FH himself into nadals BH (the ideal scenario of course for him) nadal played an astounding 75% of his own BHs (and also run around FHs) DTL into feds BH. this is interesting because as I said the CC is the more natural shot, a change of direction is always hard (see the directionals guy) especially with the BH.

with that strategy nadal (who has great footspeed of course) dares fed to hit into the open FH corner starting the CC into BH game again or DTL from where nadal uses both options with his BH.

people always talk about how nadal wins by hooking his FH CC into feds BH. that is true to some extend, however if given the chance fed plays CC into nadals BH just as often.

the interesting thing is how nadal is able to turn those rallies into feds BH (fed of course tries to pull it into the other CC rally because he is not stupid) by the use of nadals DTL BH.

could hitting more DTL with the BH be a good strategy for rec players if they face opposite handed opponents (L vs R or R vs L doesn't really matter all strategies work for both sides)?

I watched the video of this, Im not sure where these figures were pulled from, I noticed that quite a few times when Nadal did go DTL on the BH (which in itself was rare, Nadal played the percentages and went CC most times ), Federer opted to go cross court, however Federer's BH CC shots were quite effective at pulling Nadal off the court and into defence. Federer looked to attack the net and finish the point. The reason? Nadal simply doesn't have the firepower in his backhand from that position, and on the run, to play a DTL shot of high enough quality to force a weak CC from Fed's BH (which despite being a weakness of Fed, is still a very good shot - well was at the time). No one does, to be able to do it consistently over and over again anyway.

I just cant see how a DTL backhand on the move in a baseline to baseline rally is ever going to be an effective and smart strategy to going into a match with - regardless of the handedness of the opponent, and the level of play, unless you're playing someone with no form of backhand at all. Simply, its one of the hardest shots in tennis! Not to mention the agility and foot speed you need to run to the other side of the court, and then launch an attack on the forehand!

Go out to the court and try it - see how you go placing a DTL backhand from a CC ball when you're on the run deep enough to force a weak CC reply that you can run around with your forehand and attack - and do it consistently. You're absolutely dreamin'!!!!

Well it's TW - anything can happen I guess.....

But really what would you do if your opponent through up a medium paced rally ball down the line straight to you? You'd simply knock it back CC, and go in to mop up the likely defensive reply.

I think the only way the DTL backhand can be a sensible consistent play is on the approach on short balls, and then following the ball and coming into the net to cover the angles on any attempted pass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nadal's tested and true strategy against Fed to simply attack the backhand relentlessly until getting a short/weak ball he can open up the court, run around and smash home a winner or force an error? Pretty sure he laid that out in his own words in his book!

 

[spun_out]

I watched the video of this, Im not sure where these figures were pulled from, I noticed that quite a few times when Nadal did go DTL on the BH (which in itself was rare, Nadal played the percentages and went CC most times ), Federer opted to go cross court, however Federer's BH CC shots were quite effective at pulling Nadal off the court and into defence. Federer looked to attack the net and finish the point. The reason? Nadal simply doesn't have the firepower in his backhand from that position, and on the run, to play a DTL shot of high enough quality to force a weak CC from Fed's BH (which despite being a weakness of Fed, is still a very good shot - well was at the time). No one does, to be able to do it consistently over and over again anyway.

I just cant see how a DTL backhand on the move in a baseline to baseline rally is ever going to be an effective and smart strategy to going into a match with - regardless of the handedness of the opponent, and the level of play, unless you're playing someone with no form of backhand at all. Simply, its one of the hardest shots in tennis! Not to mention the agility and foot speed you need to run to the other side of the court, and then launch an attack on the forehand!

Go out to the court and try it - see how you go placing a DTL backhand from a CC ball when you're on the run deep enough to force a weak CC reply that you can run around with your forehand and attack - and do it consistently. You're absolutely dreamin'!!!!

Well it's TW - anything can happen I guess.....

But really what would you do if your opponent through up a medium paced rally ball down the line straight to you? You'd simply knock it back CC, and go in to mop up the likely defensive reply.

I think the only way the DTL backhand can be a sensible consistent play is on the approach on short balls, and then following the ball and coming into the net to cover the angles on any attempted pass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nadal's tested and true strategy against Fed to simply attack the backhand relentlessly until getting a short/weak ball he can open up the court, run around and smash home a winner or force an error? Pretty sure he laid that out in his own words in his book!

So which is it? You say that Nadal is hitting majority of his backhands crosscourt to Federer's forehand at the top of your post but state that Nadal's strategy is to attack Federer's backhand relentlessly.

Also, I don't think anyone is claiming that the play is to rip a backhand DTL so that the opponent coughs up a weak reply. At least I am saying to hit a relatively safe backhand DTL (whether high slow slice or loopy topspin) so that you can get into a forehand-backhand rally. Percentages are not determined only by the direction of the shot. Between a loopy/floating backhand DTL and a high-paced backhand CC, which one is higher percentage? I guess each player needs to figure this out for themselves.

 

[tennis_hack]

So which is it? You say that Nadal is hitting majority of his backhands crosscourt to Federer's forehand at the top of your post but state that Nadal's strategy is to attack Federer's backhand relentlessly.

Also, I don't think anyone is claiming that the play is to rip a backhand DTL so that the opponent coughs up a weak reply. At least I am saying to hit a relatively safe backhand DTL (whether high slow slice or loopy topspin) so that you can get into a forehand-backhand rally. Percentages are not determined only by the direction of the shot. Between a loopy/floating backhand DTL and a high-paced backhand CC, which one is higher percentage? I guess each player needs to figure this out for themselves.

Thing is, even if the right-handed player really has no form of backhand at all, the lofted, safe slice, or the high safe loopy topspin backhand down the line hit by the lefty will (by virtue of its safety) hang in the air for a long time and give the right-handed opponent time enough to run all the way around his backhand and hit a hard inside-in forehand right back into the lefty's backhand. When Nadal plays the backhand down the line too safely like this, I have seen Federer punish him thusly.

 

[dominikk1985]

I watched the video of this, Im not sure where these figures were pulled from, I noticed that quite a few times when Nadal did go DTL on the BH (which in itself was rare, Nadal played the percentages and went CC most times ), Federer opted to go cross court, however Federer's BH CC shots were quite effective at pulling Nadal off the court and into defence. Federer looked to attack the net and finish the point. The reason? Nadal simply doesn't have the firepower in his backhand from that position, and on the run, to play a DTL shot of high enough quality to force a weak CC from Fed's BH (which despite being a weakness of Fed, is still a very good shot - well was at the time). No one does, to be able to do it consistently over and over again anyway.

I just cant see how a DTL backhand on the move in a baseline to baseline rally is ever going to be an effective and smart strategy to going into a match with - regardless of the handedness of the opponent, and the level of play, unless you're playing someone with no form of backhand at all. Simply, its one of the hardest shots in tennis! Not to mention the agility and foot speed you need to run to the other side of the court, and then launch an attack on the forehand!

Go out to the court and try it - see how you go placing a DTL backhand from a CC ball when you're on the run deep enough to force a weak CC reply that you can run around with your forehand and attack - and do it consistently. You're absolutely dreamin'!!!!

Well it's TW - anything can happen I guess.....

But really what would you do if your opponent through up a medium paced rally ball down the line straight to you? You'd simply knock it back CC, and go in to mop up the likely defensive reply.

I think the only way the DTL backhand can be a sensible consistent play is on the approach on short balls, and then following the ball and coming into the net to cover the angles on any attempted pass.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Nadal's tested and true strategy against Fed to simply attack the backhand relentlessly until getting a short/weak ball he can open up the court, run around and smash home a winner or force an error? Pretty sure he laid that out in his own words in his book!

yes but it is also feds stragtegy to attack nadals BH! the interesting thing is way nadal is able to do that to fed on clay but not vice versa.

believe me or not but I counted nearly all rallies in about 2 sets of the match. against feds CC FH he almost always went DTL to the BH.

I did only nadals serve games though because I wanted to take out feds serve out of the equation. also I also counted inside-in FHs also as DTL BHs in that statistic.

see this point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EHlR6E6VsQ#t=59m23

fed hit 4 times CC into nadals BH and nadal hit DTL 3 times (once with the FH inside in)

 

[mightyrick]

yes but it is also feds stragtegy to attack nadals BH! the interesting thing is way nadal is able to do that to fed on clay but not vice versa.

believe me or not but I counted nearly all rallies in about 2 sets of the match. against feds CC FH he almost always went DTL to the BH.

I did only nadals serve games though because I wanted to take out feds serve out of the equation. also I also counted inside-in FHs also as DTL BHs in that statistic.

see this point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EHlR6E6VsQ#t=59m23

fed hit 4 times CC into nadals BH and nadal hit DTL 3 times (once with the FH inside in)

Your post (and that video) illustrates the point of how underrated Nadal's backhand is. Everyone usually just talks about how awesome his forehand is (and it is awesome).

But the guy's backhand is ridiculously good. It isn't the most attacking of backhands from the baseline like Djokovic, but he doesn't miss. It allows him to keep rallies going... on and on and on and on. Which is perfect for his style.

Also, Nadal has one of the best backhand passing shots in the game. Almost on par with Djokovic. Nobody dares come to the net on Nadal. He has an unorthodox jerky backhand flip stroke that he nails DTL or cross-court. With high-consistency.

Highly underrated, IMHO.

 

[NLBwell]

could hitting more DTL with the BH be a good strategy for rec players if they face opposite handed opponents (L vs R or R vs L doesn't really matter all strategies work for both sides)?

Yeah, hit to the other guy's weakness. Crosscourt may be very slightly higher percentage, but it's more important to hit to the other guy's weakness.

 

[HughJars]

Basic Tennis Strategy 101

So which is it? You say that Nadal is hitting majority of his backhands crosscourt to Federer's forehand at the top of your post but state that Nadal's strategy is to attack Federer's backhand relentlessly.

Also, I don't think anyone is claiming that the play is to rip a backhand DTL so that the opponent coughs up a weak reply. At least I am saying to hit a relatively safe backhand DTL (whether high slow slice or loopy topspin) so that you can get into a forehand-backhand rally. Percentages are not determined only by the direction of the shot. Between a loopy/floating backhand DTL and a high-paced backhand CC, which one is higher percentage? I guess each player needs to figure this out for themselves.

Yeah, hit to the other guy's weakness. Crosscourt may be very slightly higher percentage, but it's more important to hit to the other guy's weakness.

Yes Nadal attacks Feds backhand, but going BH to BH down the line consistently? Come on. This is never a percentage play unless you're on the approach into the net. Maybe as a surprise change up, but doing this all day long he'd get killed. What would you do if this was happening to you? Simple - hit cross court to the mass of open space then come in and finish at the net. You don't even need an amazing CC shot. And Fed has the ability to do this and then some.

Nadal will generally attack the backhand for balls landing in the middle or short, OR if he can run around and use his deadly forehand on the deuce side and attempt a winner, which he is always looking to do.

If you have an opponent with a weak backhand you're still risking a lot attacking the BH by going down the line for balls into your corner. You open up the entire court for them. And, as Ive said before, youre hitting over a higher part of the net and a shorter length of court. I would of thought this would be basic strategy. That's how I was taught anyway. Please correct me if Im wrong...Unless they have no form of backhand at all, or they are attacking the net and you're looking to pass then this will never be the percentage play compared to going cross court in these situations.

I would of thought that leaving the attacking of the backhand for when you get short balls and balls played up the middle to you would be the smartest play, as you can easily position yourself if the middle of the entire possible angles of the shot they will be returning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuyCJpYm3pM

 

[tennis_hack]

Why do people always cite the increased height over the net and the shortness of the court when going DTL vs CC as reasons not to go DTL?

If you're hitting with the height and spin of Nadal, (or the height and spin you should be at least aiming towards as a rec player) your shots clear the net by 2-3m anyway, so the inch or two that the net is higher at the sides than the middle is utterly negligible.

Likewise, Nadal's spin pulls the ball back into the court before it passes the service line in the majority of cases, so the shortness of the court is a complete non-factor as well.

The only thing that makes it appreciably more difficult for Nadal to hit DTL vs CC is the change-of-direction involved.

 

[NLBwell]

If you have an opponent with a weak backhand you're still risking a lot attacking the BH by going down the line for balls into your corner. You open up the entire court for them. And, as Ive said before, youre hitting over a higher part of the net and a shorter length of court. I would of thought this would be basic strategy. That's how I was taught anyway. Please correct me if Im wrong...Unless they have no form of backhand at all, or they are attacking the net and you're looking to pass then this will never be the percentage play compared to going cross court in these situations.

I would of thought that leaving the attacking of the backhand for when you get short balls and balls played up the middle to you would be the smartest play, as you can easily position yourself if the middle of the entire possible angles of the shot they will be returning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuyCJpYm3pM

As far as the height of the net and length to hit in, if you hit with reasonable height and depth you probably wouldn't miss more than 1 out of 10 or 20 shots into the extra net height or court length. Most shots people miss would be missed in any case. Do you really want to hit 20 shots to the opponent's stronger shot to avoid missing one or maybe two shots? He will probably miss or hit a weak shot more than one or two times more often out of 20 using his weaker shot than his stronger shot.
This is assuming you aren't playing someone like Murray or Djokovic who isn't going to make an error very often in any case and is able to take advantage of the angles with their weaker side and that you have reasonable court coverage.