Nadal at Barcelona or Federer at Basel?

[BGod]

Okay, in terms of Masters, there simply is no contest with Nadal's run at Monte Carlo. However a more interesting topic could be their 500 level tournament dominance at Barcelona for Rafa and Basel for Roger.

Nadal at Barcelona
13 Appearances
57-2 Overall Record
11 Finals, 11 Titles
One Fivepeat, Two Threepeats (Included 41 match win streak and 8 consecutive titles in tournaments played)
Opponents in Finals: Ferrer x4, Soderling, Almagro, Thiem, Tsitsipas, Nishikori, Canas, Robredo, Ferrero

Federer at Basel
18 Appearances
69-7 Overall Record
14 Finals, 9 Titles
12 Consecutive Finals in tournaments played, One Threepeat and three additional Back to Back
Opponents in Finals: del Potro x3, Djokovic x2, Nalbandian, Nadal, Henman, Nishikori, Gonzalez, Nieminen, Enqvist, Goffin, Copil

 

[NatF]

Nadl.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Fedr

 

[abmk]

Nadal obviously.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

RAFA lost to Almugro in Barcelona. Never forget.

 

[BGod]

I hope people understand Federer 98-03 is not the same Federer in his comeback starting in 06. He lost the finals to Tim Henman and Enqvist as 19 and 20 year old. His only 2 losses prior to Finals, which Nadal has at Barcelona were to Nalbandian and Ljubicic. Nadal lost to Almagro and Fognini.

I personally think his opponents were stronger with Novak, Potro, Nalbandian, Nishikori on hard as oppose to clay and yes Nadal in their only meeting in the final there. Although if you flip his back to back losses to Potro obviously this gets really interesting as he gets the 11 titles, but 12 consecutive finals is very impressive.

 

[abmk]

I hope people understand Federer 98-03 is not the same Federer in his comeback starting in 06. He lost the finals to Tim Henman and Enqvist as 19 and 20 year old. His only 2 losses prior to Finals, which Nadal has at Barcelona were to Nalbandian and Ljubicic. Nadal lost to Almagro and Fognini.

I personally think his opponents were stronger with Novak, Potro, Nalbandian, Nishikori on hard as oppose to clay and yes Nadal in their only meeting in the final there. Although if you flip his back to back losses to Potro obviously this gets really interesting as he gets the 11 titles, but 12 consecutive finals is very impressive.

If Federer had won one of Basel 12/13 finals , I might've gone with him.

 

[Mainad]

Nadal is undefeated in Barcelona finals so have to go with him.

 

[octobrina10]

 

[Towny]

Nadal won 2 more titles, the answer is obvious

 

[wangs78]

Nadal. He has basically owned the clay season for the last 12 or so years. The next most impressive streak of dominance over this time period is Fed on grass but his dominance was really from 2003-2009 so a much shorter period.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Nadal but it’s marginal. I’m impressed with him being undefeated in finals there.

 

[OldschoolKIaus]

Clay is bad, so Barcelona is bad.

 

[abmk]

Opponents of worth beaten :
Top 10 level guys playing decent/other guys playing well :

Federer :
Basel 00 : Hewitt
Basel 01 : Roddick
Basel 02 : Roddick
Basel 06 : Srichapan, Gonzalez, Ferrer(?)
Basel 07 : Karlovic
Basel 08 : Nalby, Nieminen(?)
Basel 10 : Djokovic, Roddick
Basel 11 : Stan, Nishikori(?)
Basel 12 : Belluci (?)
Basel 13 : Pospisil
Basel 14 : Dimitrov, Karlovic, Goffin
Basel 15 : Goffin, Nadal, Kohlscheiber
Basel 17 : Delpo, Goffin, Mannarino
Basel 18 : Simon, Copil

Losses worth mentioning :
Enqvist in 00 final
Henman in 01 final
Nalby in 02 semi
Ljubicic in 03 2nd match
Djokovic in 09 final
Delpo in 12 final
Delpo in 13 final

What is impressive is only loss before semi from 2000 onwards (15 editions played)

Will do similar for Nadal@Barcelona in another post in some time.

 

[metsman]

If Federer had won one of Basel 12/13 finals , I might've gone with him.

or 09

 

[abmk]

or 09

true.
I'd prefer one of 12/13 though. 2 consecutive final losses doesn't look that great.
Atleast he reversed the Djokovic loss a year after.

 

[tennis_pro]

Who even plays Barcelona?

Apart from Federer several top players enter Basel like Del Potro, Djokovic, Nadal, Zverev depending on the season.

It's a totally different surface too, way easier to score an upset on fast HC than on slow clay.

 

[DSH]

the spaniard by a mile.

 

[abmk]

Opponents of worth beaten :
Top 10 level guys playing decent/other guys playing well :
Nadal at Barcelona :

2005 : Ferrero (?)
2006 : Almagro , Nieminen
2007 : Ferrer, Canas
2008 : Ferrer
2009 : Ferrer, Davydenko
2011 : Ferrer
2012 : Ferrer
2013 : Almagro
2016 : Fognini(?), Nishikori
2017 : Chung, Thiem

Losses worth mentioning :

2014 : Almagro
2015 : Fognini

What is impressive is Nadal's dominance here (though competition isn't great) and 8/8 when he played from 2005-13 (skipped it in 2010)

 

[abmk]

Nadal. He has basically owned the clay season for the last 12 or so years. The next most impressive streak of dominance over this time period is Fed on grass but his dominance was really from 2003-2009 so a much shorter period.

Nadal didn't own clay from 2014-16.

its been 2005-13 and then 17-18.

 

[KINGROGER]

Barcelona because of superior conversion.

Worth noting that out of the 500s, Dubai and Basel have had the toughest competition along with Queens so they should hold value.

 

[True Fanerer]

GOD hurry up Hopman Cup.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Nadal - titles always count more than anything else. Plus Nadal is young enough to extend that title run to 12 and possibly 13. Fed won't hit 11 at Basel - he could quite posibly get his own double decima though at Halle & Basel.

Rafa is astonishingly seeking # 12 at three different tournaments in 2019: MC, Barca & RG and has an outside shot at making it 10 titles in Rome too before retirement.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Nadal - titles always count more than anything else. Plus Nadal is young enough to extend that title run to 12 and possibly 13. Fed won't hit 11 at Basel - he could quite posibly get his own double decima though at Halle & Basel.

Rafa is astonishingly seeking # 12 at three different tournaments in 2019: MC, Barca & RG and has an outside shot at making it 10 titles in Rome too before retirement.

He's too good on clay. Nobody will even come close to him in any single-tournament streak/record because of this.

 

[axlrose]

Barcelona is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, I love walking down la Rambla, from Catalonia Square to the beach, see - hear - breath - taste the unique atmosphere of the city.

So I'd go with Nadal and Barcelona.

 

[axlrose]

If Roger invites me to Basel and pays all the expenses, maybe I'd change my mind.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Opponents of worth beaten :
Top 10 level guys playing decent/other guys playing well :

Federer :
Basel 00 : Hewitt
Basel 01 : Roddick
Basel 02 : Roddick
Basel 06 : Srichapan, Gonzalez, Ferrer(?)
Basel 07 : Karlovic
Basel 08 : Nalby, Nieminen(?)
Basel 10 : Djokovic, Roddick
Basel 11 : Stan, Nishikori(?)
Basel 12 : Belluci (?)
Basel 13 : Pospisil
Basel 14 : Dimitrov, Karlovic, Goffin
Basel 15 : Goffin, Nadal, Kohlschreiber
Basel 17 : Delpo, Goffin, Mannarino
Basel 18 : Simon, Copil

Losses worth mentioning :
Enqvist in 00 final
Henman in 01 final
Nalby in 02 semi
Ljubicic in 03 2nd match
Djokovic in 09 final
Delpo in 12 final
Delpo in 13 final

Wouldn't say these are worth mentioning. Sushikori didn't play well, Kohli is a perennial choker and others are not good enough. Goffin isn't worth mentioning either even when he's top 10 imo because Fed owns him throughout when playing half-decently.

What is impressive is only loss before semi from 2000 onwards (15 editions played)

The most impressive (near-)streak about Baselerer I guess, given that titles aren't that streaky.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Wouldn't say these are worth mentioning. Sushikori didn't play well, Kohli is a perennial choker and others are not good enough. Goffin isn't worth mentioning either even when he's top 10 imo because Fed owns him throughout when playing half-decently.

Is beating Ferrer any better, though
@abmk forgot Barcelona 18

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Nadl faced pretty good comp in later years at Barcelona too, often next best after Fedovic. Didn't have to beat a single top 10 player in 05-07 (still beat Ferrero, Robredo, Almagro, Canas, Ferrer), but beat top 10 in every win since then except 2013. Faced Ferrer in five straight participations: 07-09, 11-12 (first was a semi, the next four were all finals). Ferrer actually remains one of the only two players to take a set off Nadal in his winning runs (2008 final) along with Nieminen (2006 QF).

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Is beating Ferrer any better, though
@abmk forgot Barcelona 18

Ferrer was pretty good on clay in his prime, no? Sure, Nadal owned him, but then he owned everyone and hardly anyone but Fedovic would even resist.

 

[moonballs]

Statically it is easier to have the better player to win on clay.

The other way to say it is on faster courts upsets are more likely to happen than on slower courts.

Or, the standard deviation of the outcome distribution of slow court matches is smaller than that of the fast court matches.

All three above are saying the same thing. Hope at minimum one of them is understood.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Ferrer was pretty good on clay in his prime, no? Sure, Nadal owned him, but then he owned everyone and hardly anyone but Fedovic would even resist.

When talking about Ferrer as competition I always think of his record against Fed, especially in the context like these threads.

 

[Sport]

When talking about Ferrer as competition I always think of his record against Fed, especially in the context like these threads.

Mr. Federer dominates poor Ferrer 17-0, including a humilliating 5-0 on clay.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Then David Ferrer arrived. That changed everything. We finally had some real competition.

 

[mike danny]

Can't see any rational reason to give it to Fed. Nadal sll the way.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

When talking about Ferrer as competition I always think of his record against Fed, especially in the context like these threads.

Fedr is a terrible match-up for him indeed. I'd say Ferrer did ok in their last 11 matches though (from Hamburg '07 onwards), considering the difference in skill: took a set in 2 of the 3 clay meetings and all 4 outdoor HC meetings, lost all 4 YEC matches in straights but forced a close set in two of them, and I guess he needn't be faulted for failing to stand up against peak YECerer in '07 & '10. The real humiliation came on the fabled blue clay in Madrid '12, Ferrer winning a grand total of 6 return points in their QF, now that's what I call epic.
Match-up is real though, Ferrer is not a big hitter and Fedr loves non-big hitters off clay (B4 aside) when not in fedmug form (then he hates everything).

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Can't see any rational reason to give it to Fed. Nadal sll the way.

Losing to Almugro is at least minus 3 titles

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Fedr is a terrible match-up for him indeed. I'd say Ferrer did ok in their last 11 matches though (from Hamburg '07 onwards), considering the difference in skill: took a set in 2 of the 3 clay meetings and all 4 outdoor HC meetings, lost all 4 YEC matches in straights but forced a close set in two of them, and I guess he needn't be faulted for failing to stand up against peak YECerer in '07 & '10. The real humiliation came on the fabled blue clay in Madrid '12, Ferrer winning a grand total of 6 return points in their QF, now that's what I call epic.
Match-up is real though, Ferrer is not a big hitter and Fedr loves non-big hitters off clay (B4 aside) when not in fedmug form (then he hates everything).

Is this a clever way to disregard the likes of Simon?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Is this a clever way to disregard the likes of Simon?

Pretty sure Fed was mugging up every time he struggled versus Gillou
Simon is special though, he can frustrate anyone who's not on song.

 

[abmk]

Wouldn't say these are worth mentioning. Sushikori didn't play well, Kohli is a perennial choker and others are not good enough. Goffin isn't worth mentioning either even when he's top 10 imo because Fed owns him throughout when playing half-decently.



The most impressive (near-)streak about Baselerer I guess, given that titles aren't that streaky.

I was being liberal for both Federer&Nadal considering these are 500s.
Re : Goffin, disagree. If you stop putting in players because they are owned quite a bit, you'll run into lot of problems.

 

[abmk]

Is beating Ferrer any better, though
@abmk forgot Barcelona 18

not really. Just wasn't sure if I should add someone.
Maybe Robert Carbellas Beana ?

 

[Night Slasher]

Nadal's record is clearly better, more titles and less appearances. Fed's competition was a bit tougher (Djokovic, Nalbandian, Delpo (combined) are better on an indoor hard court than Ferrer, Almagro and Robredo are on clay), though.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

not really. Just wasn't sure if I should add someone.
Maybe Robert Carbellas Beana ?

In terms of rank Goffin but it was not much of a match

 

[Forty Love of Tennis]

Nadal's clay tourney success beats any male player's tournament success anywhere else. Everytime.

I have not done any research on this, but maybe a comparison that would be fair is Nadal at a clay tourney vs McEnroe at a carpet tourney?

 

[Standaa]

Why is it Nadal 11-18?

Nadal did lose there in 14 and 15, you know that OP, right?

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Why is it Nadal 11-18?

Nadal did lose there in 14 and 15, you know that OP, right?

The listed years are when they played regardless of result.

 

[Standaa]

The listed years are when they played regardless of result.

Nadal played in 03.