Nadal began his decline in 2011?

[Kralingen]

My favorite version of Nadal by far was 05-09. I’ve never seen anyone move like that on any surface and I’m certain we never will again. His passing shots were out of this world. There was no outrunning that version of Nadal. What a mythical talent. I don’t think we fully appreciate how special that was. He got to shots that no one else could’ve touched and managed to do something with them. No one comes close to his ability to turn defense to offense during that phase.

2010-13 he was still very good, and in some ways he did improve, especially on HCs where he added some consistency, upping his service venom and ability to play closer to the baseline and not cede so much ground in rallies. He had some embarrassing losses on HC from 05-09 that he mostly cleared up (at the expense of grass)

And his serve/serve+1 under Moya obviously have improved but for me that’s not the real Rafa. The real Nadal is the insane pirate with capri pants making hundreds of ludicrous defensive gets per match. That’s the one I want to remember the most.

 

[Mustard]

Are you telling me Nadal sucked in Doha 2010, when he bagelled Davydenko and held Championship point?

He played pretty good that day. However, Nadal from the 2009 French Open to 2010 Key Biscayne only beat one player who was ranked in the top 10 (Tsonga), and he didn't beat any top 8 player in that period. This is not Nadal's best version.

It's Nadal who had to show that he could take two sets off Davydenko first, which outside of an early win, he never did. 6-1 is a real thing. Davydenko had Nadal's number on HC, and I'm sorry, but talking about what will happen in a slam doesn't cut it, the guy struggled to get two sets.

All of them were best of 3 sets. I knew when it ended 6-5 to Davydenko in the head-to-head that it would be talked up by Nadal critics, and blown out of all proportion compared to Blake and Youzhny, or even Berdych in the 2005-2006 period. It's often forgotten now that Berdych was favoured by a lot of pundits going into their 2007 Wimbledon quarter final to beat Nadal.

Nadal beating Blake in Miami 2008 showed he was playing great tennis, because Blake was a problem match up for him also. The form was there, and no question in my mind that had it been anyone else other than Davydenko, he would have won. Many thought with no Federer or Djokovic there he was going to win considering his form there, but was denied.

It's not the best Nadal like you claimed.

 

[Hitman]

He played pretty good that day. However, Nadal from the 2009 French Open to 2010 Key Biscayne only beat one player who was ranked in the top 10 (Tsonga), and he didn't beat any top 8 player in that period. This is not Nadal's best version.


All of them were best of 3 sets. I knew when it ended 6-5 to Davydenko in the head-to-head that it would be talked up by Nadal critics, and blown out of all proportion compared to Blake and Youzhny, or even Berdych in the 2005-2006 period. It's often forgotten now that Berdych was favoured by a lot of pundits going into their 2007 Wimbledon quarter final to beat Nadal.


It's not the best Nadal like you claimed.

Nadal was at his peak in 2008, Miami literally happened before MC, Nadal didn't just magically go up several notches, the form was already there. You think only if Nadal wins is he in peak form, that isn't how things work. Peak form can be defeated, they all lost matches at their peaks, Federer lost to Nadal at Rome 2006 at his peak, Djokovic lost to Federer at RG 2011 at his peak. It happens.

Davydenko takes the ball early, that is a nightmare for Nadal, you know this, he doesn't play the way the others you say do. Davydenko is basically Agassi but with superior movement, pure ball striking, redirecting the ball, taking it super early, this what Nadal always struggled with. I'm going to go with actual results, not some hypothetical matches that never happened. Nadal showed he struggled to take two sets off Davydenko on HC, that is how it went down.

 

[Mustard]

Nadal was at his peak in 2008, Miami literally happened before MC, Nadal didn't just magically go up several notches, the form was already there. You think only if Nadal wins is he in peak form, that isn't how things work. Peak form can be defeated, they all lost matches at their peaks, Federer lost to Nadal at Rome 2006 at his peak, Djokovic lost to Federer at RG 2011 at his peak. It happens.

Davydenko takes the ball early, that is a nightmare for Nadal, you know this, he doesn't play the way the others you say do. Davydenko is basically Agassi but with superior movement, pure ball striking, redirecting the ball, taking it super early, this what Nadal always struggled with. I'm going to go with actual results, not some hypothetical matches that never happened. Nadal showed he struggled to take two sets off Davydenko on HC, that is how it went down.

Nadal did get better in 2008 once they moved onto the clay, and he did go up several notches once they got to Roland Garros. Hardcourt was Nadal's weakest surface at the time. As mentioned, Davydenko was one of several players who were tough matchups for Nadal on hardcourt in those days. No need to single out Davydenko.

 

[MichaelNadal]

My favorite version of Nadal by far was 05-09. I’ve never seen anyone move like that on any surface and I’m certain we never will again. His passing shots were out of this world. There was no outrunning that version of Nadal. What a mythical talent. I don’t think we fully appreciate how special that was. He got to shots that no one else could’ve touched and managed to do something with them. No one comes close to his ability to turn defense to offense during that phase.

2010-13 he was still very good, and in some ways he did improve, especially on HCs where he added some consistency, upping his service venom and ability to play closer to the baseline and not cede so much ground in rallies. He had some embarrassing losses on HC from 05-09 that he mostly cleared up (at the expense of grass)

And his serve/serve+1 under Moya obviously have improved but for me that’s not the real Rafa. The real Nadal is the insane pirate with capri pants making hundreds of ludicrous defensive gets per match. That’s the one I want to remember the most.

Most exciting player of all time that version of Rafa

 

[The Guru]

Nadal's points won percentage:

From Jan 1, 2005 to Dec 31 2010: 54.5%
From Jan 1, 2011 to now: 54.8%

lol

 

[Hitman]

Nadal did get better in 2008 once they moved onto the clay, and he did go up several notches once they got to Roland Garros. Hardcourt was Nadal's weakest surface at the time. As mentioned, Davydenko was one of several players who were tough matchups for Nadal on hardcourt in those days. No need to single out Davydenko.

I single out Davydenko because Nadal could never solve him on HC, the way he did the others, 6-1 is telling.

Anyways, I'm done with this topic, bowing out.

 

[Mustard]

I single out Davydenko because Nadal could never solve him on HC, the way he did the others, 6-1 is telling.

Nadal never really got the chance to turn it around afterwards. Davydenko piled up wins in that 2009 French Open to 2010 Key Biscayne period that I was talking about. In June 2009, Nadal lead 4-2 in the head-to-head with Davydenko. Davydenko beat Nadal 3 times in that period I mentioned to make it 5-4, then they didn't meet for a year until 2011 Doha, to make it 6-4. They then met one more time, well over a year later, i.e. 2012 Madrid, which Nadal won.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal never really got the chance to turn it around afterwards. Davydenko piled up wins in that 2009 French Open to 2010 Key Biscayne period that I was talking about. In June 2009, Nadal lead 4-2 in the head-to-head with Davydenko. Davydenko beat Nadal 3 times in that period I mentioned to make it 5-4, then they didn't meet for a year until 2011 Doha, which Davydenko narrowly won after being championship point down to make it 6-4. They then met one more time, well over a year later, i.e. 2012 Madrid, which Nadal won.

Doha 2010 was a massive choke but still one of my fav matches. Nadal was CRISPY AFFFFFF.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal never really got the chance to turn it around afterwards. Davydenko piled up wins in that 2009 French Open to 2010 Key Biscayne period that I was talking about. In June 2009, Nadal lead 4-2 in the head-to-head with Davydenko. Davydenko beat Nadal 3 times in that period I mentioned to make it 5-4, then they didn't meet for a year until 2011 Doha, which Davydenko narrowly won after being championship point down to make it 6-4. They then met one more time, well over a year later, i.e. 2012 Madrid, which Nadal won.

That unfortunately is how things go. Can't give out hypothetical wins though when the H2H on HC was so lopsided.

 

[Mustard]

That unfortunately is how things go. Can't give out hypothetical wins though when the H2H on HC was so lopsided.

The point is that they never met over best of 5 sets, and Davydenko got 3 wins in a row against Nadal (from October 2009 to January 2010), to go from 2-4 down in the head-to-head to 5-4 up, when Nadal wasn't winning a match against any top 8 player. Yes, this is a fact that Davydenko won these matches and I accept it, but anti-Nadal people exaggerate it out of all proportion.

 

[Hitman]

The point is that they never met over best of 5 sets, and Davydenko got 3 wins in a row against Nadal (from October 2009 to January 2010), to go from 2-4 down in the head-to-head to 5-4 up, when Nadal wasn't winning a match against any top 8 player. Yes, this is a fact and I accept it, but anti-Nadal people exaggerate it out of all proportion.

It doesn't mean Nadal gets hypothetical wins. Bottom line is this, you said the peak was from April to August, there were no slams in April, so you are clearly counting peak form from outside the slams also, and as I said, Nadal made the final of Miami, and with Federer and Djokovic out, he was the favorite to win the title, and his was in form, Davydenko beating was seen as an upset, as that was Davydenko's first masters title.

As I have said previously, being at your peak doesn't mean you are undefeatable, Federer at his peak lost Rome 2006, and he too struggled in the quarters and semis before the final, but his level was peak level. Djokovic also lost at his peak at RG, he was simply beaten by a better player on the day also. The same was with Nadal in Miami 2008, he was seen as the red hot fav, he simply was beaten by the better player on the day. It happens.

 

[Mustard]

It doesn't mean Nadal gets hypothetical wins.

When have I done that? What does it even mean? I said that they had never met over best of 5 sets, and I'd naturally be more confident in Nadal winning such a match.

Bottom line is this, you said the peak was from April to August, there were no slams in April, so you are clearly counting peak form from outside the slams also, and as I said, Nadal made the final of Miami, and with Federer and Djokovic out, he was the favorite to win the title, and his was in form, Davydenko beating was seen as an upset, as that was Davydenko's first masters title.

An upset, yes, but why do you go over the top? I mentioned the Blake matches, and Nadal had not won a tournament since July 2007 at Stuttgart Outdoor on clay. Nadal won 8 tournaments in 4 months from April to August 2008, and became world number 1.

 

[Hitman]

When have I done that? What does it even mean? I said that they had never met over best of 5 sets, and I'd naturally be more confident in Nadal winning such a match.


An upset, yes, but why do you go over the top? I mentioned the Blake matches, and Nadal had not won a tournament since July 2007 at Stuttgart Outdoor on clay. Nadal won 8 tournaments in 4 months from April to August 2008, and became world number 1.

Because Nadal's peak actually would have started in March, not April, during the sunshine double, with Miami being the focal point, not MC as you are suggesting. That is the whole point here. He was expected to win Miami because he was the most in form player during that event, he lost because the match up went against him.

In regards to your first point, why bring up best of five, and start throwing around potential hypotheticals, we don't know how they would have gone, if Youzhny and Blake can beat him in best of five, then so can Davydenko, what you and I think might happen is pure speculation though, hence why the only thing that matters are the matches that actually did happen, and on HCs, Nadal never could figure Davydenko out, hey, it happens, they all have players that simply cause them all issues.

 

[Mustard]

Because Nadal's peak actually would have started in March, not April, during the sunshine double, with Miami being the focal point, not MC as you are suggesting. That is the whole point here. He was expected to win Miami because he was the most in form player during that event, he lost because the match up went against him.

In regards to your first point, why bring up best of five, and start throwing around potential hypotheticals, we don't know how they would have gone, if Younzhny and Blake can beat him in best of five, then so can Davydenko, what you and I think might happen is pure speculation though, hence why the only thing that matters are the matches that actually did happen, and on HCs, Nadal never could figure Davydenko out, hey, it happens, they all have players that simply cause them all issues.

Nadal has beaten Youzhny in best of 5 sets too. Good day to you.

 

[Hitman]

Nadal has beaten Youzhny in best of 5 sets too. Good day to you.

He's also lost to him, which is the main point and why you don't just give out hypothetical wins, especially when the guy is 6-1 on HCs against you. Good day to you also. Sleep well.

 

[SABRvolley]

Definitely not, he won more than half his slams since 2011. Not sure how you can call that a “decline”

 

[GoatNo1]

either nole's level has risen sharply since 2011 or everyone else, including the other members of the so-called big4, has suddenly declined. The fans of Fedal will claim the latter, especially the fans of Fed, but if you go by logic... you know what is correct answer!

 

[Rosstour]

2014 was when he declined.

I think 2014 is when it became very obvious. That was the last time he beat Fed outside of RG2019, and he hasn't taken a set off Nole on hard court since then either

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal was as fast as ever at '12 AO F! He had never tried harder than at '11 US and '12 AO finals!

 

[Third Serve]

Nadal was as fast as ever at '12 AO F! He had never tried harder than at '11 US and '12 AO finals!

Bad takes as usual

 

[SonnyT]

Bad takes as usual

Bad takes as usual

 

[Gazelle]

If by decline, you mean hairloss you might be right.

 

[SonnyT]

Easy, by measuring his win percentages for both '10-11 without Djokovic in both years!

 

[Racquet_smash]

Nadal actually did lose some mobility in late 2005. Granted, it was nothing immense, but the absolutely bonkers stuff you would see him pulling off like that point against Stepanek in Rome you would never see him doing it again. However up until the knee injury in 2009 he was still the fastest player on tour and probably the best mover in general.

After 2009 he had a noticeable decline in this regard. But i would say Nadal was still in his prime up until 2014. After that, massive decline that really never ended. His decision to change coaching with Moya was vital, but old Nadal is nowhere near the incredible freak athlete he was back in the 2000s.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Nadal declined from 2014

He was at his peak in 2013

Nadal was far from his peak on clay and grass in 2013.

 

[Razer]

Nadal was far from his peak on clay and grass in 2013.

Hard Court Peak was in 2013

 

[MichaelNadal]

I miss King Rafa doing epic things

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal actually did lose some mobility in late 2005. Granted, it was nothing immense, but the absolutely bonkers stuff you would see him pulling off like that point against Stepanek in Rome you would never see him doing it again. However up until the knee injury in 2009 he was still the fastest player on tour and probably the best mover in general.

After 2009 he had a noticeable decline in this regard. But i would say Nadal was still in his prime up until 2014. After that, massive decline that really never ended. His decision to change coaching with Moya was vital, but old Nadal is nowhere near the incredible freak athlete he was back in the 2000s.

We wanted to see the data that he had declined before 2009!

 

[Sudacafan]

Federer began his decline in 2008.
Nadal began his decline in 2011.
Djokovic began his decline in 2016.

Djokovic's decline was the lest costlier of all.

This sums it all up.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Put all the excuse makers on this list to ignore list. Worst of the worst.

 

[Sudacafan]

Put all the excuse makers on this list to ignore list. Worst of the worst.

Not recommendable. You'll have nobody to have lively discussions with here.

 

[SonnyT]

Federer began his decline in 2008.
Nadal began his decline in 2011.
Djokovic began his decline in 2016.

Djokovic's decline was the lest costlier of all.

This sums it all up.

There were differing circumstances. For instance, we could divide Federer's career as pre-'14 and post-'14. Against Nadal, Murray & Berdych (three notoriously difficult rivals vs Fed) pre-'14: 27-40; post-'14: 23-1

People said Nadal achieve his peak pre-'11, because in 2011, he went 0-6 against Djokovic! That was why we should take out that rivalry in analysis of '10-11! I saw some indication that 2013 was Nadal's top year! 2013 was certainly when he had most T10 matches, when he had 24 of those. In no other year, did he exceed 19!

 

[MichaelNadal]

Not recommendable. You'll have nobody to have lively discussions here.

He just wants to shout alone in the robot room

 

[Pheasant]

The shorter the peak, the worse the player was. Saying that Federer started declining in 2007, or Nadal started declining in 2011 is a mark against those players, not something that helps them.

Joe Louis won the heavyweight title at age 23. He defended that title 25 straight times across an 11 year span. One could say that his peak lasted 11 straight years. Now that is one hell of a peak. That dude automatically belongs in the GOAT discussion, due to having a peak that lasted that long.

 

[RS]

The shorter the peak, the worse the player was. Saying that Federer started declining in 2007, or Nadal started declining in 2011 is a mark against those players, not something that helps them.

Joe Louis won the heavyweight title at age 23. He defended that title 25 straight times across an 11 year span. One could say that his peak lasted 11 straight years. Now that is one hell of a peak. That dude automatically belongs in the GOAT discussion, due to having a peak that lasted that long.

If Louis didn't do army service in between his reign he probably would have got closer to 35 if not 35.

 

[Mustard]

He just wants to shout alone in the robot room

He didn't like it when I said that Berdych had a higher peak level of tennis than Sinner. Facts hurt him.

 

[Goat Shank]

The shorter the peak, the worse the player was. Saying that Federer started declining in 2007, or Nadal started declining in 2011 is a mark against those players, not something that helps them.

Joe Louis won the heavyweight title at age 23. He defended that title 25 straight times across an 11 year span. One could say that his peak lasted 11 straight years. Now that is one hell of a peak. That dude automatically belongs in the GOAT discussion, due to having a peak that lasted that long.

I think you're sort of missing the point here. People in this thread are trying to establish players peak windows by level of play/eye test analysis. Otherwise, to follow your Joe Louis comparison, their peak windows would simply be whatever was their longest interval of consecutively winning at least a slam per year. But was Joe Louis boxing at the same level across the entirety of that 11 year span? Of course not.

 

[Third Serve]

I think you're sort of missing the point here. People in this thread are trying to establish players peak windows by level of play/eye test analysis. Otherwise, to follow your Joe Louis comparison, their peak windows would simply be whatever was their longest interval of consecutively winning at least a slam per year. But was Joe Louis boxing at the same level across the entirety of that 11 year span? Of course not.

This is something that really shouldn’t have to be clarified.

 

[RS]

Poisoned Slice Joe Louis makes his appearance.

 

[thrust]

Stop lambasting the greatest no.2 in the history of the sport ! You should all be ashamed !

Rosewall and Rafa were probably the greatest and longest #2 ranked players, at least since 1950

 

[thrust]

Now I'm finally starting to understand! it wasn't nole who rose astronomically in 2011. it was everyone else who declined meteorically in 2011. above all fed, rafa and muzza!

OF COURSE- LOL!

 

[Racquet_smash]

We wanted to see the data that he had declined before 2009!

Data is not comparable to eye test in any sports.

Obviously, this means you need to be able to look at things objectively and fairly, something most can't do.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Hard Court Peak was in 2013

At which tournament? His best Indian Wells performance maybe, but outside of that, he played better other times.

 

[Razer]

At which tournament? His best Indian Wells performance maybe, but outside of that, he played better other times.

Well he had his best HC Season, no ? He even won Cincinnati. You can his US open was not as great as 2010 when he had that nice serve but in general for an entire season on HCs 2013 was his best.

 

[Sport]

Ned was still in his prime in 2011-2013 but after 2010 it was a slow downward curve that turned into a rapid one after AO 2014.

In the same way, Fed left his absolute peak by 2007/2008 but still was in his prime till early 2010 and near his prime till 2012, and then 2013 kicked off the more rapid decline.

With the exception of clay. Clay allows for some late peak performances.

Nadal was at his absolute, indestructible, unbreakable and masterful peak on clay at RG 2017. Never has he been more dominant at the tournament, with a perfect combination of brutally powerful shotmaking + still great defense (he was a bit less fast, but due to clay being slower, he could neutralize it to a high extent). Previous versions of Nadal were less aggressive in the shotmaking, and at 2017 he was still quite fast, we arent talking of the significantly slower Nadal from RG 2022.

Federer also played his best ever RG in 2011, thus that was his peak performance at the tournament. Never has Roger been so close to push Nadal to 5 sets at RG, plus he beat peak Djokovic.

The case of Roger at RG 2011 may be more debatable, but Nadal being at his absolute peak at RG 2017 should be obvious to the neutral observer.

 

[Mustard]

At which tournament? His best Indian Wells performance maybe, but outside of that, he played better other times.

Along with winning Indian Wells, Nadal did the Canadian Open-Cincinnati-US Open triple in 2013. Federer and Djokovic never did the Canadian Open-Cincinnati-US Open triple.

When was Nadal ever in better hardcourt form in a whole year? People mention the 2009 Australian Open or the 2010 US Open, but they weren't for a whole year.

 

[Racquet_smash]

Along with winning Indian Wells, Nadal did the Canadian Open-Cincinnati-US Open triple in 2013. Federer and Djokovic never did the Canadian Open-Cincinnati-US Open triple.

True, but his 2010 US Open run was better than the one in 2013.

 

[Mustard]

With the exception of clay. Clay allows for some late peak performances.

Nadal was at his absolute, indestructible, unbreakable and masterful peak on clay at RG 2017. Never has he been more dominant at the tournament, with a perfect combination of brutally powerful shotmaking + still great defense (he was a bit less fast, but due to clay being slower, he could neutralize it to a high extent). Previous versions of Nadal were less aggressive in the shotmaking, and at 2017 he was still quite fast, we ain't talking of the Slowdal from RG 2022.

Federer also played his best ever RG in 2011, thus that was his peak performance at the tournament. Never has Roger been so close to push Nadal to 5 sets at RG, plus he beat peak Djokovic.

The case of Roger at RG 2011 may be more controversial, but Nadal being at his absolute peak at RG 2017 should be obvious to the neutral observer.

What made Nadal so relatively strong at the 2017 French Open was his serving. 2017 was the best serving that Nadal ever did at the French Open.

I think Federer was playing his best clay-court tennis in 2005. He had won 11 matches in a row (and 28 sets in a row) going into his 2005 French Open semi final against Nadal, while Nadal had won 22 matches in a row at the time. Something had to give, like Frazier vs. Ali 1, a fight between the undefeated reigning world heavyweight champion and the undefeated former world heavyweight champion who had been stripped of the title for refusing the Vietnam draft.

 

[Sudacafan]

Rosewall and Rafa were probably the greatest and longest #2 ranked players, at least since 1950

Once they became #1, they lost the greatest #2 award nomination.
Vilas was.