Nadal began his decline in 2011?

[Neptune]

Rafa after excluding matches against Nole and Fed. (Because people don't know how quick Fed getting old or Nole getting better, so exclude their H2H to have a neutral view @Lleytonstation )

Rafa​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
2008​	4 (3-1) 75.00%​	4.82%​	13 (9-4) 69.23%​	15.66%​	70 (65-5) 92.86%​	84.34%​	83 (74-9) 89.16%​
2009​	3 (2-1) 66.67%​	4.23%​	16 (9-7) 56.25%​	22.54%​	55 (52-3) 94.55%​	77.46%​	71 (61-10) 85.92%​
2010​	4 (2-2) 50.00%​	5.19%​	12 (8-4) 66.67%​	15.58%​	65 (60-5) 92.31%​	84.42%​	77 (68-9) 88.31%​
2011​	6 (5-1) 83.33%​	8.11%​	17 (13-4) 76.47%​	22.97%​	57 (53-4) 92.98%​	77.03%​	74 (66-8) 89.19%​
2012​	/​	/​	7 (7-0) 100.00%​	16.67%​	35 (31-4) 88.57%​	83.33%​	42 (38-4) 90.48%​
2013​	8 (6-2) 75.00%​	11.11%​	19 (17-2) 89.47%​	26.39%​	53 (51-2) 96.23%​	73.61%​	72 (68-4) 94.44%​
08 – 13​	25 (18-7) 72.00%​	5.97%​	84 (63-21) 75.00%​	20.05%​	335 (312-23) 93.13%​	79.95%​	419 (375-44) 89.50%​

 

[Lleytonstation]

Rafa after excluding matches against Nole and Fed.

Rafa​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
2008​	4 (3-1) 75.00%​	4.82%​	13 (9-4) 69.23%​	15.66%​	70 (65-5) 92.86%​	84.34%​	83 (74-9) 89.16%​
2009​	3 (2-1) 66.67%​	4.23%​	16 (9-7) 56.25%​	22.54%​	55 (52-3) 94.55%​	77.46%​	71 (61-10) 85.92%​
2010​	4 (2-2) 50.00%​	5.19%​	12 (8-4) 66.67%​	15.58%​	65 (60-5) 92.31%​	84.42%​	77 (68-9) 88.31%​
2011​	6 (5-1) 83.33%​	8.11%​	17 (13-4) 76.47%​	22.97%​	57 (53-4) 92.98%​	77.03%​	74 (66-8) 89.19%​
2012​	/​	/​	7 (7-0) 100.00%​	16.67%​	35 (31-4) 88.57%​	83.33%​	42 (38-4) 90.48%​
2013​	8 (6-2) 75.00%​	11.11%​	19 (17-2) 89.47%​	26.39%​	53 (51-2) 96.23%​	73.61%​	72 (68-4) 94.44%​
08 – 13​	25 (18-7) 72.00%​	5.97%​	84 (63-21) 75.00%​	20.05%​	335 (312-23) 93.13%​	79.95%​	419 (375-44) 89.50%​

Why are you excluding those two?

 

[Mustard]

Why are you excluding those two?

Because Nadal had the best big match record, especially so in the time period listed. The only exception is vs. Djokovic in 2011.

 

[Lleytonstation]

either nole's level has risen sharply since 2011 or everyone else, including the other members of the so-called big4, has suddenly declined. The fans of Fedal will claim the latter, especially the fans of Fed, but if you go by logic... you know what is correct answer!

Obviously Djoker level rose dramatically. It was also about the time Fed started to decline and Rafa was post peak. Both can be true, which is why we see such a dramatic shift.

 

[GoatNo1]

Because Nadal had the best big match record, especially so in the time period listed. The only exception is vs. Djokovic in 2011.

yes, on clay.

 

[Noleberic123]

Obviously Djoker level rose dramatically. It was also about the time Fed started to decline and Rafa was post peak. Both can be true, which is why we see such a dramatic shift.

But Federer was better in 2011 than in 2010 for the most part. So that makes no sense.

 

[Lleytonstation]

But Federer was better in 2011 than in 2010 for the most part. So that makes no sense.

Well if we are being specific, Fed dropped off in 2013. 2011 Djoker was not dominating Fed.

 

[Noleberic123]

Well if we are being specific, Fed dropped off in 2013. 2011 Djoker was not dominating Fed.

Because Fed in 2011 was fantastic. Especially at FO and USO.

 

[Mustard]

yes, on clay.

Regardless of surface. Nadal beat Federer at 2008 Wimbledon and 2009 Australian Open, so that's all surfaces when including the French Open dominance. Nadal also beat Djokovic in 2 out of 3 US Open finals that they had against each other, again on top of French Open dominance, and responding to the 2011 setback against Djokovic.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Regardless of surface. Nadal beat Federer at 2008 Wimbledon and 2009 Australian Open, so that's all surfaces when including the French Open dominance. Nadal also beat Djokovic in 2 out of 3 US Open finals that they had against each other, again on top of French Open dominance, and responding to the 2011 setback against Djokovic.

Clay is such a weak defense at this point lol, oh no he dominated clay and still won everywhere, the horror!

 

[Mustard]

Clay is such a weak defense at this point lol, oh no he dominated clay and still won everywhere, the horror!

They have to "take out clay" to make it close.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Rafa after excluding matches against Nole and Fed. (Because people don't know how quick Fed getting old or Nole getting better, so exclude their H2H to have a neutral view @Lleytonstation )

Rafa​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
2008​	4 (3-1) 75.00%​	4.82%​	13 (9-4) 69.23%​	15.66%​	70 (65-5) 92.86%​	84.34%​	83 (74-9) 89.16%​
2009​	3 (2-1) 66.67%​	4.23%​	16 (9-7) 56.25%​	22.54%​	55 (52-3) 94.55%​	77.46%​	71 (61-10) 85.92%​
2010​	4 (2-2) 50.00%​	5.19%​	12 (8-4) 66.67%​	15.58%​	65 (60-5) 92.31%​	84.42%​	77 (68-9) 88.31%​
2011​	6 (5-1) 83.33%​	8.11%​	17 (13-4) 76.47%​	22.97%​	57 (53-4) 92.98%​	77.03%​	74 (66-8) 89.19%​
2012​	/​	/​	7 (7-0) 100.00%​	16.67%​	35 (31-4) 88.57%​	83.33%​	42 (38-4) 90.48%​
2013​	8 (6-2) 75.00%​	11.11%​	19 (17-2) 89.47%​	26.39%​	53 (51-2) 96.23%​	73.61%​	72 (68-4) 94.44%​
08 – 13​	25 (18-7) 72.00%​	5.97%​	84 (63-21) 75.00%​	20.05%​	335 (312-23) 93.13%​	79.95%​	419 (375-44) 89.50%​

Rafa got injured as soon as nole peaked. The excuse makers are shameless.

 

[SonnyT]

Rafa after excluding matches against Nole and Fed. (Because people don't know how quick Fed getting old or Nole getting better, so exclude their H2H to have a neutral view @Lleytonstation )

Rafa​	vs Top5​	T5 Weight​	vs Top10​	T10 Weight​	vs T11+​	T11+ Weight​	vs All​
2008​	4 (3-1) 75.00%​	4.82%​	13 (9-4) 69.23%​	15.66%​	70 (65-5) 92.86%​	84.34%​	83 (74-9) 89.16%​
2009​	3 (2-1) 66.67%​	4.23%​	16 (9-7) 56.25%​	22.54%​	55 (52-3) 94.55%​	77.46%​	71 (61-10) 85.92%​
2010​	4 (2-2) 50.00%​	5.19%​	12 (8-4) 66.67%​	15.58%​	65 (60-5) 92.31%​	84.42%​	77 (68-9) 88.31%​
2011​	6 (5-1) 83.33%​	8.11%​	17 (13-4) 76.47%​	22.97%​	57 (53-4) 92.98%​	77.03%​	74 (66-8) 89.19%​
2012​	/​	/​	7 (7-0) 100.00%​	16.67%​	35 (31-4) 88.57%​	83.33%​	42 (38-4) 90.48%​
2013​	8 (6-2) 75.00%​	11.11%​	19 (17-2) 89.47%​	26.39%​	53 (51-2) 96.23%​	73.61%​	72 (68-4) 94.44%​
08 – 13​	25 (18-7) 72.00%​	5.97%​	84 (63-21) 75.00%​	20.05%​	335 (312-23) 93.13%​	79.95%​	419 (375-44) 89.50%​

See, I told you! Even more so than I had dreamt! Rafa was best in 2011 & 2013. But in 2011, he met an unmovable object named Novak Djokovic.

Now I know hard facts are probably not able to move the obstinate among you! But who cares! We Djokfans are convinced!

Thank you, Neptune!

 

[Goat Shank]

Since several posters have contributed some stimulating reflections concerning Nadal's movement over the years, it got me thinking about Fed and periods of actual recovered movement. Does anyone else think that the way Fed was moving at the '09 AO was the best he had moved on hard court since the 2007 AO at least? When you go back and watch the tape you can see he had this spring and lightness in his step (like a young billy goat hopping about almost; it felt like he was perpetually on the balls of his feet instead of ever being on his heels) that he might not have had since the end of '05. I also think his FO '11 movement was his best clay movement ever and he had some of that spring as well then along with what looked like his best coordinated sliding (it felt like he calculated the length of his slides and whether they should be into or out of shots, and to what degree, the best I had ever seen it and also had the best balance during the slides). Beyond the decrease in footspeed for both Nadal and Fed, their loss of movement could be seen in how low to the ground they stayed while traveling laterally or forwards. Their carriages while on the run got way more upright as time progressed.

 

[SonnyT]

So where are you? The people who kept saying Nadal's best years were way back in '08-09, when Rafa was only 21!

The hard data tells that 2013 was his best year! Your eyeballs certainly didn't say the same story!

 

[thrust]

Once they became #1, they lost the greatest #2 award nomination.
Vilas was.

I did not realize you were talking about #2 players that never reached #1. Both Ken and Rafa returned to the #2 rank after they had reached #1

 

[thrust]

So where are you? The people who kept saying Nadal's best years were way back in '08-09, when Rafa was only 21!

The hard data tells that 2013 was his best year! Your eyeballs certainly didn't say the same story!

In tennis history, players are judged by results of their entire career, not by their very best years. Rafa was winning big tournaments and slams after 2013, if I recall correctly.

 

[MichaelNadal]

They have to "take out clay" to make it close.

I’ve yet to see someone play the kind of tennis Nadal played at his peak anywhere that wasn’t indoors in a fish tank.

 

[SonnyT]

In tennis history, players are judged by results of their entire career, not by their very best years. Rafa was winning big tournaments and slams after 2013, if I recall correctly.

Nadal's best years, 2011 & 13, coincided with Djokovic's best years, 2011-16! Those were the years where the competition was best and most intense!

 

[SonnyT]

If you look at his form/level etc across all surfaces. It seems he peaked on all surfaces from 2008-2010. 2008/2010 his level was clearly superior to his 2011 form on clay, as was his grass level as well 2008/2010 Wimbledon form as was HC level. Even though he reached most of the finals in 2011, his level would never reach the heights it did prior to that on any surface from 2011-on. While some will say 2013 his North American HC run was peakish, it paled in comparison to his 2010 US Open peak level. His best chance at winning the Year End title was 2010. His AO form was at it's best in 2009

Clearly, your eyeballs are deceiving you! Why the 2011 Nadal was clearly inferior? He just lost to Djokovic, especially in the most important matches!

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal's best years, 2011 & 13, coincided with Djokovic's best years, 2011-16! Those were the years where the competition was best and most intense!

I wish it wasn't so obvious how new you were to tennis.

 

[SonnyT]

Djokovic & Nadal had their best years, 2010-16! They also had the all-time best and second-best winning percentages! Name one period which was better!

 

[gamelovergold]

Too good that his physical decline doesn’t matter in a surface that’s considered the most demanding?

I’m actually seeing a usage a good paradox here. Honestly good paradox lol

Nadal never was injured for FO . He was never out of form in french open when he loose one game to soderling. 70% nadal is good on clay when clay is most demanding surface . Hypocrisy at its best.
Other win because they vulture the slam ...nadal win because he is so good. These double standards are not to be taken as argument. One can always argue that nadal competition in clay was weak clay era where nobody was able to win matches from nadal in clay.

 

[Feather]

Djokovic & Nadal had their best years, 2010-16! They also had the all-time best and second-best winning percentages! Name one period which was better!

You are trolling!

 

[Mustard]

Djokovic & Nadal had their best years, 2010-16! They also had the all-time best and second-best winning percentages! Name one period which was better!

Nadal's best tennis form was 2008, the period from April to August when he won 8 tournaments in 4 months. In that period, Nadal beat Federer 4 times and beat Djokovic 4 times, and at one point won 32 matches in a row.

Nadal went on a similar urge in the early months of 2009, winning the Australian Open, Indian Wells, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome and qualifying for the YEC in early May. Nadal beat Federer again in this period, and beat Djokovic 4 times. Nadal led Djokovic 14-4 in their head-to-head at that point against what was considered a tough matchup. All of Djokovic's wins over Nadal at the time were on hardcourt and in 2 straight sets (that was always the case before 2011 when Djokovic beat Nadal).

Nadal went through a bit of a slump by his very high standards July 2009 - March 2010 time, when the only top 10 player he beat in that whole period was Tsonga, and beat no top 8 player. For some reason, Nadal's critics seem to remember this period a lot more, like Davydenko turning his head-to-head against Nadal from 2-4 down to 5-4 ahead.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Nadal's best tennis form was 2008, the period from April to August when he won 8 tournaments in 4 months. In that period, Nadal beat Federer 4 times and beat Djokovic 4 times, and at one point won 32 matches in a row.

Nadal went on a similar urge in the early months of 2009, winning the Australian Open, Indian Wells, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome and qualifying for the YEC in early May. Nadal beat Federer again in this period, and beat Djokovic 4 times. Nadal led Djokovic 14-4 in their head-to-head at that point against what was considered a tough matchup. All of Djokovic's wins over Nadal at the time were on hardcourt and in 2 straight sets (that was always the case before 2011 when Djokovic beat Nadal).

Nadal went through a bit of a slump by his very high standards July 2009 - March 2010 time, when the only top 10 player he beat in that whole period was Tsonga, and beat no top 8 player. For some reason, Nadal's critics seem to remember this period a lot more, like Davydenko turning his head-to-head against Nadal from 2-4 down to 5-4 ahead.

#McCrispy

 

[GoatNo1]

Regardless of surface. Nadal beat Federer at 2008 Wimbledon and 2009 Australian Open, so that's all surfaces when including the French Open dominance. Nadal also beat Djokovic in 2 out of 3 US Open finals that they had against each other, again on top of French Open dominance, and responding to the 2011 setback against Djokovic.

he is 8-8 in slam F outside of clay
2-5 vs no1
6-6 vs top5
6-7 vs top10
7-8 vs top20

6-5 on hard (55%), 2-3 (40%) on grass and of course 14-0 on clay (100%)

nole is 14-6 on hard (70%), 3-4 on clay (43%) and 7-3 on grass (70%)

	no1e	rafa
AO	10-0	2-4
RG	3-4	14-0
W	7-3	2-3
USO	4-6	4-1

and it is still better to lose in the final than in the early rounds vs opponents 100+ ranked opponents.

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal's best tennis form was 2008, the period from April to August when he won 8 tournaments in 4 months. In that period, Nadal beat Federer 4 times and beat Djokovic 4 times, and at one point won 32 matches in a row.

Nadal went on a similar urge in the early months of 2009, winning the Australian Open, Indian Wells, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, Rome and qualifying for the YEC in early May. Nadal beat Federer again in this period, and beat Djokovic 4 times. Nadal led Djokovic 14-4 in their head-to-head at that point against what was considered a tough matchup. All of Djokovic's wins over Nadal at the time were on hardcourt and in 2 straight sets (that was always the case before 2011 when Djokovic beat Nadal).

Nadal went through a bit of a slump by his very high standards July 2009 - March 2010 time, when the only top 10 player he beat in that whole period was Tsonga, and beat no top 8 player. For some reason, Nadal's critics seem to remember this period a lot more, like Davydenko turning his head-to-head against Nadal from 2-4 down to 5-4 ahead.

You need somebody to read the table for you?

 

[zagor]

Are you telling me Nadal sucked in Doha 2010, when he bagelled Davydenko and held Championship point? It's Nadal who had to show that he could take two sets off Davydenko first, which outside of an early win, he never did. 6-1 is a real thing. Davydenko had Nadal's number on HC, and I'm sorry, but talking about what will happen in a slam doesn't cut it, the guy struggled to get two sets.

Nadal beating Blake in Miami 2008 showed he was playing great tennis, because Blake was a problem match up for him also. The form was there, and no question in my mind that had it been anyone else other than Davydenko, he would have won. Many thought with no Federer or Djokovic there he was going to win considering his form there, but was denied.

Davydenko was one tough cookie for Nadal on HC, no matter how much the hivemind tries to spin it.

6-1 is definitely real, Davydenko deserves waaay more credit for those wins, most of them over an in-form Nadal.

 

[weakera]

 

[zagor]

So where are you? The people who kept saying Nadal's best years were way back in '08-09, when Rafa was only 21!

The hard data tells that 2013 was his best year! Your eyeballs certainly didn't say the same story!

It's not easy to determine Nadal's peak because it's surface based, he peaked on different surfaces in a different period unlike most other ATGs.

2013 was probably best overall Nadal on HC but he lost early at Wimbledon (for the 2nd straight year), 2008 Nadal was the best Nadal at the FO but he got smoked by Tsonga and Murray at AO and USO respectively.

To use another example, "baby" Nadal of 2006 and 2007 was much better on grass than the matured Nadal of 2012 and 2013 who was a much more consistent contender on HC.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Nadal was one of the greatest of all time. He compensated for his declined movement after spring 2009 by shifting his game to rely less and less on movement. Only the rubber band man, with his absurd movement, was able to take advantage of Nadal’s decline. It is hardly surprising that he hasn’t defeated Djokovic off clay since 2011. The rabbit died after the 2009 Australian final.

 

[Hitman]

Davydenko was one tough cookie for Nadal on HC, no matter how much the hivemind tries to spin it.

6-1 is definitely real, Davydenko deserves waaay more credit for those wins, most of them over an in-form Nadal.

True. Davydenko was a savage at times.

Hivemind. Lol.

 

[RS]

2011 sucked other than RG 11. Hagler vs Duran FTW.

 

[Mustard]

You need somebody to read the table for you?

You need someone to explain the concept "paralysis through analysis".

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal was one of the greatest of all time. He compensated for his declined movement after spring 2009 by shifting his game to rely less and less on movement. Only the rubber band man, with his absurd movement, was able to take advantage of Nadal’s decline. It is hardly surprising that he hasn’t defeated Djokovic off clay since 2011. The rabbit died after the 2009 Australian final.

Did you watch '12 AO finals? You guys push his decline back to '09, when he was 22? That's not what the data said! The data agreed with us!

 

[zagor]

True. Davydenko was a savage at times.

Hivemind. Lol.

Even on clay they had a good one:

Forgotten match.

 

[Mustard]

Davydenko was one tough cookie for Nadal on HC, no matter how much the hivemind tries to spin it.

6-1 is definitely real, Davydenko deserves waaay more credit for those wins, most of them over an in-form Nadal.

3 of those Davydenko wins were in late 2009 and early 2010 (meaning that Davydenko turned his head-to-head against Nadal from 2-4 to 5-4), at a time when Nadal was losing every match to a top 10 player who wasn't Tsonga. Nadal beat Davydenko for the last time on the blue clay at 2012 Madrid, but that was Nadal's only chance to face a fading Davydenko. They also never met over best of 5 sets.

I honestly think that Blake was a tougher matchup for Nadal than Davydenko was. Blake won his first 3 matches against Nadal, winning 7 of 8 sets played. Blake actually won more sets overall (11 to 9), though Nadal won more matches (4 to 3).

 

[Winners or Errors]

Did you watch '12 AO finals? You guys push his decline back to '09, when he was 22? That's not what the data said! The data agreed with us!

Not talking about record. Talking about the eye test and the style of his tennis. I’ll go review that match as it’s not fresh in my mind, but I’ll probably come away with the same impression.

 

[CHillTennis]

Nadal declined from 2014

He was at his peak in 2013

What?? In 2013, he lost in the first round at Wimbledon?

His peak was 2008-10.

 

[Razer]

What?? In 2013, he lost in the first round at Wimbledon?

His peak was 2008-10.

Nadal's best HC Season in terms of results was 2013 even though 2008-10 was his peak.

 

[CHillTennis]

Nadal's best HC Season in terms of results was 2013 even though 2008-10 was his peak.

Nadal's form in 2010 was a lot better. Even on the hard courts.

And he was far better on clay and grass that year.

It's not close at all.

Just look at his serve during the 2010 US Open. You'll see what I mean.

 

[Razer]

Nadal's form in 2010 was a lot better. Even on the hard courts.

And he was far better on clay and grass that year.

It's not close at all.

Just look at his serve during the 2010 US Open. You'll see what I mean.

You don't need to tell me about Nadal's serve in 2010 or his 2008-09 play. His 2013 is not as good compared to that but in terms of results hsi 2013 season was highest on HCs so anyone saying Nadal was declined and far from peak is looking to make excuses, that's why I wrote 2013. Nadal's peak was never even 1 year, in different slams he peaked different times, he peaked in 2 slams in 08, then in 09 and then in 2010, so what ? In the end people look at results too. In 2013 he beat Djokovic at the US open after his setback in 2011, it was a very big win for him regardless of how bad Novak was playing.

 

[ppma]

By 2011 he'd been downhill for a year at least.

 

[CHillTennis]

You don't need to tell me about Nadal's serve in 2010 or his 2008-09 play. His 2013 is not as good compared to that but in terms of results hsi 2013 season was highest on HCs so anyone saying Nadal was declined and far from peak is looking to make excuses, that's why I wrote 2013. Nadal's peak was never even 1 year, in different slams he peaked different times, he peaked in 2 slams in 08, then in 09 and then in 2010, so what ? In the end people look at results too. In 2013 he beat Djokovic at the US open after his setback in 2011, it was a very big win for him regardless of how bad Novak was playing.

During the 2013 season, I felt that Nadal relied on his success from earlier seasons to help get him across the finish line. He wasn't up to the same level that he had been at the year before on grass.

And I would argue that his form at the 2012 Australian Open was better than his level at the 2013 US Open.

The biggest difference that I can see is that Djokovic's level dropped.

 

[RS]

True. Davydenko was a savage at times.

Hivemind. Lol.

Screw Davydenko

 

[Hitman]

Screw Davydenko

Yeah, I bet.