Nadal better Than Roddick at USO??

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A-rodd

New User
Is it true that Nadal has the #3 spot and Roddick #4 at the USO? If it is I disagree with there choice. Roddick is a much better hard court player than Nadal imo.
 
lately the way both players have been playing, i'd say nadal can be just as good as roddick on hard, if i do remember correctly he did make it to the finals of miami, with a couple of points away from beating last years us open winner
 
Roddick is supposed to be better in hard courts but nadal is a monster he plays so good he has way more heart than roddick , so i think nadal will do better than roodick in the us open
 
There's a good chance of both of them playing a good USO. Nadal has an awesome topspin, canyon for a backhand, and speed, but Roddick's serve will be harder and his forehand will be better. Hopefully they'll both put up a fight that will make this USO an awesome one.
 
You have to distinguish between hard courts. Miami courts, like at the Oz Open, are slow hard courts whereas at Flushing Meadow they are quick and suit Roddicks game perfectly. He should do pretty well. As for Nadal, I'm not sure one way or the other. He failed to live up to the hype on grass which is arguably now slower than the USO, but he has the athleticism and fighting spirit to do well.
 
this is a big change for the two players between this and last year for when they played last year at the us open nadal was struggling just to win games in their match. reminds me of when edberg played mcenroe at the usopen for the first time and mcenroe made edberg (a score like 6-2,6-1,6-1 or something like that) look silly but the next year edberg started to become a top player
 
A-rodd said:
Is it true that Nadal has the #3 spot and Roddick #4 at the USO? If it is I disagree with there choice. Roddick is a much better hard court player than Nadal imo.
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If you're looking at the entry list for the USO, the numbers refer to their positions when entry closed, which is six weeks before the tournament. The seedings are set after Cincinnati. Currently they are ranked 2 (Nadal) and 4 (Roddick), but Roddick will drop to 5 next Monday when Toronto points come off.
 
hmmm I always think Roddick always be a massive player in the hardcourt...always!!
but I dunno, Nadal has been showing some brilliants play as well..
 
Wow we must have discussed Roddick vs Nadal on hard courts a billion times. Roddick's better hands down. Nadal cant play on anything except extremly slow hard courts and clay.
 
A-rodd said:
I really really hope they play each other at the USO!
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Me too, but Rafa won't last that long.

They met last year, and it was memorable--anyone recall?

hint: Roddick serves a 152mph bomb at Nadal's head and Rafa hits the deck. Roddick 6-0, 6-3, 6-4.

Confidence on the slow red stuff in Europe against the same players doesn't translate to confidence at the USO. I'm looking forward to Nadal's arrival in the States.
 
DashaandSafin said:
Wow we must have discussed Roddick vs Nadal on hard courts a billion times. Roddick's better hands down. Nadal cant play on anything except extremly slow hard courts and clay.
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How were the courts at the Nasdaq? I don't remember hearing anything about them being extremely slow, but maybe I missed it. Nadal did pretty well there; getting to the final and almost pulling it off against Federer.
 
Ben42 said:
How were the courts at the Nasdaq? I don't remember hearing anything about them being extremely slow, but maybe I missed it. Nadal did pretty well there; getting to the final and almost pulling it off against Federer.
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NASDAQ-100? Just another extremely impressive result by Nadal on a very slow surface. Might as well have been another clay court tournament, and it might as well have been last year.
 
big ted said:
this is a big change for the two players between this and last year for when they played last year at the us open nadal was struggling just to win games in their match. reminds me of when edberg played mcenroe at the usopen for the first time and mcenroe made edberg (a score like 6-2,6-1,6-1 or something like that) look silly but the next year edberg started to become a top player
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PLEASE!!!! Please don’t compare Edberg’s serve and volley game with Nadal 10 feet behind the line clay court style. Same people who predicted Nadal to do well at Wimbledon are smoking their pipes again and making similar USO prediction. Nadal will not pass 3rd round at USO.
 
ezdude1970 said:
PLEASE!!!! Please don’t compare Edberg’s serve and volley game with Nadal 10 feet behind the line clay court style. Same people who predicted Nadal to do well at Wimbledon are smoking their pipes again and making similar USO prediction. Nadal will not pass 3rd round at USO.
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Even with the uncertainty surrounding the health of Agassi, Safin and even Hass at this point, and the withdrawal of Joachim due to injury, Nadal has certainly caught a break.

Having said that, I couldn't agree more. I still don't see him making week two in NYC.
 
SMASHER said:
I like his chances as well. His game is right on the verge of breaking into the hardcourt greats.
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He might break into spring hardcourt where the courts mimic Aussie Open speed and with clay court season coming up in mind, but he is not ready for fast hardcourt during the summer where courts mimic US Open speed. He might do well here or there, but not consistently. His main problem is he is staying too far behind baseline.
 
nadal is not a one surface wonder in my opinion. he got the the junior wimbeldon semifinals his last year as a junior, hes interested in developing his game to win on other surfaces, and i think the other reason he lost early at wimbledon was becuz he played like a billion more matches then anyone else right before that in the clay court season. most french open winners dont even bother showing up to wimbledon.

sure he wont win every hardcourt match he plays like he did on clay and id be surprised if he got the finals like his seeding will probly suggest at the us open, but i think he'll at least make the quarters or hopefully the semis as long as hes not hurt or something
 
guys just face it. now that joachim is out the USO is all roddicks.

nadal deserves the higher spot than roddick. he has had the results this year, even if they came on clay. roddick hasn't been getting the job done.
 
I don't think Rafa is ready to win a hardcourt tournament this summer, but then again, I didn't think he'd do half of what he's done this year. So who knows?

The difference between hardcourts and grass is that Rafa has played a lot more on hardcourts. He's only played about 10 grasscourt matches in his life -- he's played many more hardcourt matches, and he's had some success here and there. But definitely, Rafa's confidence and mental toughness may not compensate for some of his weaknesses on the faster surface, at least this year. A lot will be depend upon his draws.

But the one thing we know is that he'll give it all he has, and it may be enough to get him some more rankings points this summer. I think he'll do better on the outdoor hardcourts than the indoor ones later this year. That's probably his least favorite playing surface.
 
Big ted, when a player wins tournaments only on 1 particular surface (clay courts in Nadal's case) and when the potential of that same player on every other surface is only some early exit in important events like Wimbledon and at best some 1/4 or 1/2 finals as you pointed out, which is not wonderfull, then we have to call that player a 1 surface wonder! If not, what would you call a 1 surface wonder?

Poor result at Wimbledon for Nadal due to a tiring clay court season? You know what? It will be the same each futur years, lots of matches on clay and still Wimbledon soon after the French... Or perhaps that he lost early at Wimbledon simply because his game is obviously not suited to grass courts, I hope that you are able to realize it. The player who defeated him at Wimbledon though much lower ranked than Nadal had the game to play well on grass, and not Nadal, end of the story.

Junior results mean nothing, because the field of players in juniors is too weak, there is not enough competition in juniors and he even hasn't been able to win the Junior Wimbledon, so please don't use the junior arguments.

You say "hes interested in developing his game to win on other surfaces", ok it is a good start, but will he be able to do it? Nobody knows yet, but wanting to improve is not the same as actually improving, far from it, even with hard working/training...
 
big ted said:
nadal is not a one surface wonder in my opinion. he got the the junior wimbeldon semifinals his last year as a junior, hes interested in developing his game to win on other surfaces, and i think the other reason he lost early at wimbledon was becuz he played like a billion more matches then anyone else right before that in the clay court season. most french open winners dont even bother showing up to wimbledon.

sure he wont win every hardcourt match he plays like he did on clay and id be surprised if he got the finals like his seeding will probly suggest at the us open, but i think he'll at least make the quarters or hopefully the semis as long as hes not hurt or something
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Ok big deal he went to the semi's...acutally i think it was finals at the JUNIOR wimbeldon. You cant compare that to the Wimbeldon of the pros i dont care what you say. Just because he went to some final at the junior Wimbeldon does not mean that hes going to advance past the third round at any fast surfaced tourtament. Ok he did play a several more matches than everone else. He didnt seem that tired at Wimby. Must be becuase of his early loss at the grass court tuneup. Nadal is the king of clay and deserves his no.2 ranking but ill bet alot of money that he wont make it past the first week of the USO(unless he has a favorable draw)
 
IMHO, due to his high seeding, Nadal has some good chances to reach the 2nd week of the US open, because he will probably play some much weaker players than him in the early rounds, but as soon as he will have to play a big gun, he will get invariably toasted.
 
Really, it depends on his draw. There are so many claycourt specialists now that Nadal might get a break and play a couple of them. He's certainly no slouch on hardcourts - but I think that the best possible result he can hope for is a quarterfinal apperance.

I don't think he'll get far enough to face any of the other top players - he won't get to play Federer or Roddick or Hewitt, and probably not even Safin.

If I had to bet on it, I'd say he doesn't make it out of the first week.
 
Firstly, I doubt they even get to meet at the USO, but as far as the seeds... I think that the organization must be having a hard time deciding who will be #2 seed and I pressume they're waiting to see what will happen in the next two masters series.
these are the issues I see:
Hewitt has won the tournament, last year's runner up and currently #3 in the entry ranks and with a good chance of being #2 by the end of August.
Nadal is the #2 player right at the moment and is the logical candidate for the #2 seeding
Roddick is the home guy, 03' champ and ESPN wants him #2 and much of what goes on at the slams involves money and corporate interests. they already did it last year and Johanson ruined all.
so it's hard. I really think that Hewitt is the most deserving player. plus he already got screwed in England when he should have been the #2 seed. don't do it again to Lleyton.
 
Maybe I missed something, but I thought only Wimbledon seeds according to surface. The rest go strictly by rankings, unless there's a protected ranking involved???? But maybe things changed.
 
Yeah. Wimbledon seeds according to surface. No other place does.

At Wimbledon we get the conspiracy theorists crying that the seeding isn't fair because they took into account grasscourt results and deviated from the entry system. At the US Open we get the conspiracy theorists that complain about the seeding being unfair because they didn't deviate from the entry ranking.

Go figure.
 
Yes, please, folks -- Wimbledon is the only ATP/ITF tournament that deviates from STRICTLY APPLIED 12-month ENTRY RANKINGS to determine seeds. It begins with those entry rankings, then weights them for grass-court results, because of the lack of grass-court events (only two weeks' worth aside from Wimbledon).

The USO, and every other tournament, simply seeds according to entry rank. The USO won't announce seeds for a few weeks yet, as mentioned, after the results of the Cincy event. It's NOT the case, as Rios notes, that the "organization" is having a hard time deciding who should be #2. The USTA waits until the completion of the bulk of the hard-court season to announce seeds based on 12-month results to that date.

Where the seeds after 1 and 2 end up in the draw, though, is determined at random, given some restrictions, e.g. that 3 and 4 be placed to meet either 1 or 2 in semis, that 5-8 must meet 1-4 in quarters, and so on.

Who "deserves" what seed according to our perceptions of who's the greatest threat at the tournament, or what matchups might ensue, is really only fodder for our discussion, but not at all a matter for the organization when it announces seeds.

(Now if the USO were to deviate from entry rank, that would be news indeed!)
 
gully said:
Yes, please, folks -- Wimbledon is the only ATP/ITF tournament that deviates from STRICTLY APPLIED 12-month ENTRY RANKINGS to determine seeds. It begins with those entry rankings, then weights them for grass-court results, because of the lack of grass-court events (only two weeks' worth aside from Wimbledon).

The USO, and every other tournament, simply seeds according to entry rank. The USO won't announce seeds for a few weeks yet, as mentioned, after the results of the Cincy event. It's NOT the case, as Rios notes, that the "organization" is having a hard time deciding who should be #2. The USTA waits until the completion of the bulk of the hard-court season to announce seeds based on 12-month results to that date.

Where the seeds after 1 and 2 end up in the draw, though, is determined at random, given some restrictions, e.g. that 3 and 4 be placed to meet either 1 or 2 in semis, that 5-8 must meet 1-4 in quarters, and so on.

Who "deserves" what seed according to our perceptions of who's the greatest threat at the tournament, or what matchups might ensue, is really only fodder for our discussion, but not at all a matter for the organization when it announces seeds.

(Now if the USO were to deviate from entry rank, that would be news indeed!)
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Well, US Open did deviate from entry ranking a few years ago. Kalfenikov was demoted in favor of Agassi.
 
Yeah that was a one time thing('96 US Open) I think they learned their lessons from the uproar from the media & players at the time. Kafelnikov boycotted.
 
The tennis guy said:
Well, US Open did deviate from entry ranking a few years ago. Kalfenikov was demoted in favor of Agassi.
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Okay, if a "few" years ago is nine. The point is that some posters -- like Rios in this thread -- make it sound as if a buncha suits are sitting around waiting to make decisions, when they just simply pull the entry rankings in every tourney except Wimby. And yes, Kevin's right, the Kafelnikov episode from nine years ago is one of the reasons these (what, 99?) tourneys use entry rank to determine seeds.
 
I'm a firm believer of who you are and who you know plays just as big of role in seeding situations as what you've done on a tennis court. This is a busniess and people that run a busniess want to make money, you have to have the big names at the top in order to draw people in. Simple really.
 
Just go with the entry ranking.

If you want to deviate from that, make public of seeding criteria used to avoid potential favortism accusation.

Whatever Wimbledon used this year or every year, I don't know how can Nadal came out seeded No. 4 if one uniform standard applied to every seed.
 
The tennis guy said:
Just go with the entry ranking.

If you want to deviate from that, make public of seeding criteria used to avoid potential favortism accusation.

Whatever Wimbledon used this year or every year, I don't know how can Nadal came out seeded No. 4 if one uniform standard applied to every seed.
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I don't understand why you don't know how he came out as the number 4 seed. The formula merely adds grass court points according to a particular, widely published formula. If you have so many points that the people behind you can't catch up, grass points added or not, then you don't move.

I mean... why do people keep getting lost on this? :confused:
 
VamosRafa said:
Maybe I missed something, but I thought only Wimbledon seeds according to surface. The rest go strictly by rankings, unless there's a protected ranking involved???? But maybe things changed.
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Nothing changed. This is just another in a long line of "Nadal blows on fast surfaces, boo hoo!" threads. Everything has stayed the same :)
 
Thanks, Chloe. Glad I didn't miss anything unusual.

But here's something from Tuesday's Mallorcan press that ought to get everyone going again. *lol*

From now on, the precocious king of clay's great challenge is to extend his empire beyond the frontiers of Roland Garros, Montecarlo, Rome... "Demonstrating that he is also a great player on fast surfaces motivates him especially," stated his uncle and trainer Toni Nadal. Rafa's brilliant campaign on clay reached its peak in Stuttgart. The reason given for his withdrawl from Umag, and a possible ninth claycourt trophy, was pain in his knee, but the decision had been made beforehand. His objective is now the US Open. He wants greater challenges, he wants to be more than the great claycourt specialist. "We've talked about it and he knows that he must play well on other surfaces because other years this run of success will be difficult to repeat," explained his uncle.
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Chloe said:
I don't understand why you don't know how he came out as the number 4 seed. The formula merely adds grass court points according to a particular, widely published formula. If you have so many points that the people behind you can't catch up, grass points added or not, then you don't move.

I mean... why do people keep getting lost on this? :confused:
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Then what is the widely published formula?
 
Our darling barry gets furious when a good-looking, well-liked American plays tennis.
We should call him Hewitt's Incarnate.

There are more than 2 players in the ATP. Some people can't recognize that.
 
Are you kidding??

Nadal is obviously a great clay courter, but rodick has the server for the hard courts. I can't see Nadal breaking Rodick very easily and his serve will be asking to be attached on the hard courts.
 
you see nadal has a very consistent game type and roddick has a ver hard serve over hard surfaces most of all but once nadal gets to return one of his serves roddick will have a 45% of wining the point
 
Matt H. said:
ATP entry system points + 100% of last year's grass points (2004) + 75% of 2 years ago grass points (2003).
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Almost. ATP entry system points + 100% of previous 12 months grass points + 75% of best grass result in the 12 months prior to that.

This is the formula they have used for 3 out of the last 4 years (and the other year the formula was only slightly different). However, they don't generally publish what formula they're going to use beforehand, which leaves them free to change it if they want to.

As Chloe points out, if a player has a big gap between him and the player below, then he's less likely to get overtaken when the formula points are added. In Nadal's case, he stayed fourth because Safin's grass record is pretty poor and a Halle final wasn't nearly enough for him to catch up. Everyone below was just too far away - they would have had to have had Federer's record on grass to close the gap.
 
rhubarb said:
However, they don't generally publish what formula they're going to use beforehand, which leaves them free to change it if they want to.
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That's what's wrong about it. If certain player or whatever reason they don't like the result from the formula, they can change it.

If they use entry points + 100% past 12-month grass points +75% best grass result prior 12-month + 50% best grass result prior 12-month, Hewitt would be seeded No. 2.

Publish the criteria before seeding announced, then do the seeding. That's fair.
 
The tennis guy said:
That's what's wrong about it. If certain player or whatever reason they don't like the result from the formula, they can change it.

If they use entry points + 100% past 12-month grass points +75% best grass result prior 12-month + 50% best grass result prior 12-month, Hewitt would be seeded No. 2.

Publish the criteria before seeding announced, then do the seeding. That's fair.
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Indeed, that *is* what's wrong with the current system. I totally agree that they should publish they publish the criteria beforehand. Preferably they should have a standard formula that they always stick to, failing that, they need to announce the forumla well before the grass-court season, so that players know what they need to do to achieve a certain seeding.

Actually, adding 50% (or even 75%) from best grass court event in 24-36 months ago for this year's Wimbledon would not have been enough to give Hewitt the number two seeding. The gap was still too big. However, I'm sure they could have found a formula to seed Hewitt second if they'd really wanted to.
 
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