IvanAndreevich
Legend
Name a few recent matches where Nadal has played aggressively, and had many more winners than UE's.
Nadal crushes Soderling /video
- Thread starter pound cat
- Start date
Name a few recent matches where Nadal has played aggressively, and had many more winners than UE's.
Sure, you believe Soderling wasn't intentionally waiting for Nadal to start his service motion to go for his new racquet and make him wait. It was obvious that Soderling was upset and he wanted to annoy Nadal.
Nadal was the one who reacted, not Soderling, and Soderling's classless impersonation of Nadal was much worse than Nadal's gesture, but of course guys like you will say that Nadal was the dick.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day7/1101ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day9/1201ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day11/1301ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day13/1401ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day15/1501ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day17/1601ms.html
http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/scores/stats/day19/1701ms.html
Gotta love that last one!
People really do have no idea what they are talking about.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
It's May right now. I've been thinking more recent than that. Nadal played great in Australia.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
I think Nadal holds the record for making his opponents wait while he's rearranging the bottles at his chair, fixing his socks, hair, bouncing the ball, drinking from 3 different bottles, etc. I didn't notice it before, but I've started timing and it's a time violation very very often.
T
TennisandMusic
Guest
So early may is too far removed from Late January/February? Man come ON. You just want to have your cake and eat it too.
So do you really expect people to look up stats from all the tournaments he has played lately? The guy has won a major, three masters, and one ATP 500. I think he's playing the way he needs too in order to win. Name ONE PLAYER who is even close to what he is doing right now.
Nadal plays with the perfect mix of aggression and defense apparently.
kafelnikov
Rookie
It's fascinating how some people can't see both sides of this..
Sure, Nadal will achieve more than Soderling can ever dream of and maybe he is the salt of the earth while Robin is the spawn of Satan.
But how can someone not see how Nadal takes advantage of being the top player, the good one, the fair champion when he makes fun of Soderling?
Nadal has the crowd with him and he knows this.
Soderling on the other hand knows he's the black sheep, the odd man out, no matter how good he plays.. he HAS to believe in himself and god knows he does or he wouldn't play at this level.
He wouldn't stand for being ridiculed, and really, who should?
With the risk of sounding like a 12-year-old, Rafa started it.
Sure, Nadal will achieve more than Soderling can ever dream of and maybe he is the salt of the earth while Robin is the spawn of Satan.
But how can someone not see how Nadal takes advantage of being the top player, the good one, the fair champion when he makes fun of Soderling?
Nadal has the crowd with him and he knows this.
Soderling on the other hand knows he's the black sheep, the odd man out, no matter how good he plays.. he HAS to believe in himself and god knows he does or he wouldn't play at this level.
He wouldn't stand for being ridiculed, and really, who should?
With the risk of sounding like a 12-year-old, Rafa started it.
vive le beau jeu !
Talk Tennis Guru
entertaining thread indeed !
"rafa" ?...
mmmh you mean the guy who's always making his opponents wait before his serve ? or the other one who interrupted a match in a middle of a game, calling the doc because he wasn't able to swallow a banana properly ?
well, anyway... i guess both of them should certainly be upset because soderling forgot to change his racket !
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VivalaVida
Banned
Wow! I understand that these are norms of the tennis court but seriously. Nadal won the whole match and comes to the press conference to bag on Soderling for that. Whats the point? It is kind of childish. Soderling himself was baffled himself that nadal cared so much about that. The net is part of tennis. Deal with and move on.
The list would be too long. He usually plays aggressively these days. If you really watch his matches you will see how he usually dominates the rallies. There's a reason why he's winning so much outside clay but you and other Federer fans can keep dreaming that he's mainly a pusher..
As for the winners/UE stats I already explained in other threads why they're misleading and don't show how aggressive someone is.
I think you watched Djokovic's impersonations, not Nadal.
The only fascinating thing here is your attempt of being neutral and say that Nadal ridiculed Soderling and Nadal started it. Seriously, the only one who crossed the line and ridiculed his opponent was Soderling with his lame classless impersonation of Nadal. Saying that Nadal was the one ridiculing is about the most silly and opposed to reality thing I have ever read. Soderling was the one who crossed the line and ridiculed his opponent.
Nadal's reaction was pretty light considering the disrespect from Soderling. I think most players would have had a worse reaction after Soderling's lame and classless impersonation.
He could have said nothing but you can't blame Nadal for pointing it out.
He isn't going to complain about that during the match so only after the match he can do it. If someone like Soderling doesn't respect basic sportsmanship he needs to be called out or more players might follow him.
I remember Federer complaining about Djokovic's timeouts after a match and Federer wasn't even playing that match, it was Wawrinka. At least Nadal was playing the match. Of course, almost everyone said Federer was right to say that and there was nothing wrong with it.
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Underhand
Legend
In Miami actually Wawrinka complained to the umpire when Nadal took 22 sec between a first and second serve. Umpires are just pussies to call out Nadal for the cheating.
M
Morrissey
Guest
So it's that that bothers you, not the fact that he owns Federer and is the #1 player in the world. No not that. It's the 22 seconds. Yeah that's gotta be it. What a cheater! How can he still be out there?
T. H. Park
Professional
I am not sure what your point is towards "underhand." If someone takes too long during and between points then that's a no no. It's absurd that such things are allowed but it's about politics and the top players - 1-5 or so are not penalized for such things. However, the problem with Nadal is that he does this in an extreme way and does not seem to want to change.
Djokovic used to be terrible as well. We all remember his 28 ball bounces before serves and he basically remedies that problem. Nadal on the other hand no. Recent match with Roddick same thing - during the tiebreak changeover Roddick was waiting on the other side and Nadal spend about 300% more time than what was allotted to him. The crowd booed him. Cheating? Who knows. Broke the time limit that's for sure. The rules say 25 seconds between points in non-grand slam tourneys. At GS it's actually only 20 seconds.
T. H. Park
Professional
Same thing with Mac. The umpire can stop it any time and give him a warning followed by a penalty. They did not but I remember that at the AO Mac was disqualified even while he was winning. This would never happen to Nadal these days (or anyone else in the top 10 I would imagine). Umpires need to stick to the Rulebook more and not be bullied by players (all players!).
Djokovic fixed his ball bouncing routine and is doing fine serving which means that he did not need to do so and was perhaps even doing that on purpose to get at the opponent. On the same token, the same could be said about Nadal. He takes his time, violates timing rules, and delays games as much as possible to win. After all the objective is to win and he must know that he is doing it despite the Rulebook's text.
The bottom line is he does not get penalized and hence continues to do it. Continuing to do so, because you can get away with it, however, does not make it right. We all see it on the TV and it's pretty embarrassing and definitely unsportsman-like. Perhaps this one of the reasons that Nadal has never won the Stefan Edberg sportsmanship award (yet) which takes its votes from active ATP players. Maybe that's another reason whey Fed has been voted 6th year in a row fan's favorite by the public. That says a lot about Nadal.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyU5VbWoDdc
Start watching at 3:38.
They actually didn't show him rearranging stuff at his chair because they switched over to the fans. But you do see him drink from 3 bottles.
The ball is tossed at 4:52. 74 seconds > 25 seconds.
seffina
G.O.A.T.
You do realize that the difference between the fan favorite votes for Nadal and Federer was like 1.5%? They're both pretty darn popular. There was also a huge campaign organized by Federer fans to mass vote for him on the ATP site. Nadal has been steadily catching up and could very well surpass Roger next year.
I know nothing of the sporstman voting, but I believe Federer as the head of the players and as someone who has been on the tour and the leader for quite a while obviously is respected more currently. It's not a slam on Nadal who is young and has just emerged as a players advocate and leader. I was very happy that Roger won those awards, but I don't see them as some big slight on Nadal.
Also, Nadal has improved on his time between points quite a lot. He doesn't go over most of the time now. Time him, he's not nearly as bad. But I've always said that the rule should be enforced within reason. There are certain points where it might take longer (after a long rally, crowd disturbance, applause, etc), but if the player is violating the rule for no good reason, it should be duly noted and penalized no matter if he is ranked number one or one thousand.
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Are you sure that the 25 second rule applies to the changing side during tiebreak?
T. H. Park
Professional
No, I did not know that. Is this for this year only or has it been like this the past 6 years?
Indeed, I would suspect something like that. I am more impressed by the Edberg Sportsmanship award than anything. Your peers vote you in and that's, at least in my opinion, a very weighty accolade.
Probably true what you say. Just pointing at some interesting results whether we like it or not. Having said that, having been on the tour for a long time, and head of the players (don't think he has been in that position for a long time, Nadal and Djokovic are also on the committee), has really not much to do. If that is the case Santoro or someone else who has been on tour longer would be voted in. That's simply not the case. Federer, at least as viewed by his peers (not the public?) is a fair sportsman. No-one else, including Nadal has received this award, never mind 6 years in a row. Just pointing out again facts and perhaps even the possibility of his delay tactics having something to do with that - even if only very little.
I agree with you somewhat there too. However, having seen the latest installment against Roddick (was it Miami? I forget ... sorry), and his delaying tactics, it is hard to see much improvement in the abuse of the time limit department. As far as hitting the tennis balls and running everything down is concerned, however, he is doing incredibly well and no-one is close to his level consistently at this time as we all know.
T. H. Park
Professional
Yup, we had this debate a while back - maybe a month or so. It's written in plain English in the Rule Book. Again, for Majors it is 20 seconds. I do think it's a bit interesting not having it during a tiebreak, I have to say, but it's in plain ink so no ambiguity there, and I certainly did not write it : )
Oh come on - you really think that this is the reason Nadal wins. Nadal seems to get on pretty well with and has respect amongst his peers. As regards Federer, his outbursts about other players performance on occasions has not exactly been sportsmanlike. Even the better british press are picking up on this. Wimbledon is pretty tough on rules and Federer would have had a warning about raquet smashing for instance. I never find Nadal embarrasing . If Federer continues the way he is he is going to be remembered as a sad prima donna, instead of the great player he was - prize or no prize
T. H. Park
Professional
I never said that is THE reason he wins - my quote from just above: "As far as hitting the tennis balls and running everything down is concerned, however, he is doing incredibly well and no-one is close to his level consistently at this time as we all know."
That is your opinion as a Nadal FAN. His peers do not share your thought, however, and have not for the past 6 years. This may of course change at any time, but until now your opinion differs from the pros who play against him.
How many times has Federer smashed racquets at Wimbledon so far? Probably zero. Not sure what your point it, but if Fed does do anything that resembles Marat then obviously he should get a racquet abuse warning and penalty. Obvious. It's embarrassing to be picking your behind 100 times at least during a match when your mom told you not to. It is embarrassing when you delay a game knowing the rules of tennis when you do not need to as your skills will take care of the winning portion, especially when you're the best player in the world. You should set a good example.
IvanAndreevich
Legend
Yes it does. However, I wouldn't say anything if it took, say 35 or 45 seconds to get play going. I am not as picky as the rule book. Nadal's OCD stuff can get pretty bad sometimes
Well with your analyses of Nadal I am surprised he has any fans at all. Sadly this is not the case as you are well aware. His behaviour when he loses is exactly the same as when he wins and it is this which is making the millions warm to this incredible player. The rest is nit picking and I would have expected more from you
vtmike
Banned
So he is allowed to poop between each serve if he wants to because he is # 1?
Underhand
Legend
You must be a brown noser ******* if you don't see what's wrong with 22sec time wasting between a first and second serve. And how do Federer and #1 enter in the picture? It's the rules simply, but seemingly you think that your buttpicking friend doesn't have to follow the rules.
If the first service is a fault, the server shall serve again without delay from behind the same half of the court from which that fault was served, unless the service was from the wrong half.
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woodrow1029
Guest
If Nadal had done the same thing that Mac did at the Australian Open when he was defaulted, he would have received the same code violations. The Point Penalty Schedule is different now then it was then, so the third penalty would have been a game penalty and not a default, unless what he said was eggregious enough to warrant an immediate default..
T. H. Park
Professional
I never said that he has a small number of fans. I am sure he has many and for good reasons too - will probably even have more as time passes. As one person pointed out, it seems that the gap this year (?) was like 1.5% or so between Fed and Rafa in terms of fan's votes (w.r.t the fan's award). What is certain is that his "tennis itself" is just impeccable and his off-court demeanor is very humbling and wonderful to see.
His on court stuff that is not "tennis" related can get somewhat questionable at times - obviously not everyone sees it that way, especially in the eyes of the fan. Fans can sometimes be blinded, however, and that goes for any fan of any player.
For me, the constant exaggerated fist pumps and vamoses along with the screaming on virtually every shot does get distracting - same goes for players like Sharapova and Serena - I do not even watch those folks play due to the screaming and the infamous interviews that Serena gives. Nadal is not nearly as bad, that's for sure. I play tennis as an amateur quite "seriously" and do not like players who are overly vocal on the court. I don't like people taking too much time between points either - beyond what's allowed by a wide margin. To me it does not matter if they play better than me or not - if they behave in such a way that's very distracting, against the rules, and even rude then my respect level just drops for such players but obviously not their tennis itself.
Indeed. It is the same "off court" I would say. On court, he's a completely different person and almost seems possessed - I guess you can call it passion if viewed on a positive level. But there is a reason he is nicknamed the bull and a beast - in the best sort of way and also perhaps a bit negatively so as well.
The rest is not nit picking. It's just an observation and actually factual events and actions taken by the player that have to do with tennis, tennis rules, and perhaps even etiquette.
T. H. Park
Professional
Not exactly sure what happened in AO but Mac did get disqualified while he was winning and that's pretty impressive as far as the umpire's action is concerned.
My point is that Nadal rarely (ever?) gets a penalty (at best he gets a warning) for his abuse of the system. I think I remember discussing this with you w.r.t the Roddick vs. Rafa game. I believe that you said something along the lines that although he took about 1 minute 30 seconds (?) when he was only allowed 25 seconds, since this was a tiebreak, it would have been "bad" to give him a penalty. As I said before, I disagree, as per the example above with Mac at the AO - Mac was winning and he got DQed. The AO example is the way it should be. Mac probably thought twice about being nuts on the court after that, at least for a while.
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woodrow1029
Guest
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z8IACYeL-c
There's the video. The warning was for trying to intimidate the base line umpire, the point penalty was for racket abuse, and the default was for verbal abuse.
I don't see how it's comparable..
You managed to pack a great amount of nonsense in one paragraph. I've bolded the most hilarious part.
First, you need to know what you are talking about. McEnroe was not defaulted at the AO for anything having to do with time violations. He was defaulted because, after he got a point penalty for repeated racket abuse, he started arguing and asked for the supervisor, who came to the court and simply told him to keep playing. As the supervisor was leaving the court, McEnroe could not resist addressing some obscenity at him. The supervisor turned around, went to the chair umpire, and told him to default the brat.
The astonishing thing is not that he was defaulted, but that it took until 1990, near the end of his career, for someone to do it. I don't know of any other player (not even Nastase or Connors) who got away with so much obnoxious behavior as McEnroe when he was on top of the game in the early to mid 80s. From smashing a whole line of glasses and bottles with his racket, to vicious abuse of chair umpires and everybody else - repeatedly. Time violations??? That was the least of it. Whenever he took it to his head to argue with an umpire (very often) he didn't take 35 seconds. He could take many minutes. Sometimes opponents would sit down near the baseline to rest, knowing the ranting would take a while to end. I remember one time Emilio Sanchez got tired of waiting and took advantage of a brief pause in Mac's ranting, to ask him a question: "Are you finished?" And Mac replied: I'll be finished when I kick your asss.
It is totally hilarious that you bring up McEnroe to argue that Nadal and the top players get away with murder these days, as opposed to the days of McEnroe, when they were so much stricter. LOL. If any player today did (and kept doing) a tenth of what McEnroe kept doing in his days, he would not only be defaulted frequently, he would most likely be suspended for several months or years.
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woodrow1029
Guest
Most of what he writes is nonsense. I think it's pretty funny to get him going and watch everyone else argue with him..
Thank both you and Park for clarifying the time rules. IMHO, this rule needs to be changed for tiebreak because it is too hard to be carried out. Nowadays, players take good care of themselves in every detail. Most of them stop to take some fluid during the changing end in tiebreaks. And it seems to me that most of players drink two kinds of fluids usually. In addition to walking and taking the towels, it is easy to take 40 seconds or so. If umpire doesn't give warning to a person using 40 seconds, he can't do it to another player using 80 seconds.
Yes it does. However, I wouldn't say anything if it took, say 35 or 45 seconds to get play going. I am not as picky as the rule book. Nadal's OCD stuff can get pretty bad sometimes
IvanAndreevich
Legend
I think so too. I think the rule should be made more relaxed - to the point where it can actually becomes enforceable!
seffina
G.O.A.T.
I agree with you to a degree. After the Roddick/Nadal match at IW, I've been keeping track of a lot of the tiebreakers and especially during the clay season many, many players took around 40-50 seconds. I think 40 seconds would definitely be more sensible.
Agree 40-50 seconds. BTW, I think Roddick should slow down a little bit in his game to be collected.
T. H. Park
Professional
Once again you are missing the point. Does Nadal go over the allotted time often (like in the recent Roddick example) or not (by a large margin)? Has he EVER been penalized a point? It seems to me back in the day, some umpires had a more professional demeanor and respect for the Rule Book and also enforcing it when broken. Nadal, although he constantly keeps abusing the timing violation in an absurd way is not given any penalties. Do you see my point? No?
T. H. Park
Professional
You are one of the most idiotic people I have seen so far. When did I ever say that Mac was given timing violation? He got defaulted while he was winning due to breaking a few items in the Rule Book. It takes a lot of guts by the umpire to do that in a GS to a top player. Got it? Nadal, breaks different types of rules all the time, in an exaggerated way, the most obvious one is timing violation and he NEVER (as far as I know) got a penalty for it. Do you follow? My point is that back in the day, no matter who you were, whether you were winning or not, at times, umpires would give you the appropriate "punishment." Nowadays that is not the case - best example Nadal.
As far as your last paragraph goes you are definitely in a world of your own. Stricter nowadays? Give me one example when Nadal was given a timing violation penalty. You are absurd. Please read my posts before you comment on them please.
T. H. Park
Professional
Oh really? Please let me know which part of my writings are nonsense. You are most rude and low. As I said it's a shame that you are a USTA official. You are as a matter of fact, as I stated before, a total embarrassment to it.
If you do not provide evidence of my "nonsense" postings you make yourself look totally stupid, you realize that don't you? Totally embarrassing.
T. H. Park
Professional
It's so disgusting to hear from people like you use words like "everybody" and such. It's usually Nadal maniacs who get all excited and post stupid things like yourself. Just read the post above for latest argument ... one person just recently thanked me for my post. You are really a low life type of a person and like to gang up on people don't you? Poor form, really. I think you should retire and definitely not work for the USTA, at least not as an umpire. It would be terrible for the sport.
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T. H. Park
Professional
Agree there too. Personally, I think 40 seconds or so seems like a good number but it has really does not matter what I think personally as there is such a thing called the Rule Book. If something is written in a Rule Book it should be followed. Otherwise, the rules should be changed. But until then, they should be enforced. I am not sure why some folks do not understand that ...
Also, for non-major (AO, Wimby, RG, USO), the timing violations seem to be a bit more flexible - at least as written in the Rule Book. For the Majors there is no such leeway written in the Rule Book.
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woodrow1029
Guest
These are just the types of posts that I think are amusing. I make one comment saying that most of what you type is nonsense, and you completely go off bashing. Just like you did to the poster that I quoted. He and I were both making the point that you can't compare what happened to McEnroe to what goes on with Nadal. It was 2 completely different things, and yes, umpires are much more strict with code violations than time violations. You however only choose to see black and white and only want to agree with yourself. There is much more to codes and time violations than black and white. Do you see a code violation every time a player throws their racket, or drops an F-bomb? NO. There is subjectivity in time violations and code violations. It's the umpires and the people that are arguing with you that have the common sense and the feel for the game. You claim that you are a saint on court. I would love to umpire a match of yours twice. The first time, your black and white way, and the second time, the way it should be done. Then you could see which way runs more smoothly and fairly. If speaking my mind, and calling you on your one sided, narrow minded, set ways, makes me an embarassment, then so be it. I don't really care what you think. You just continue to call people idiotic, and an embarassment, and all the other insults you throw around and have a great time at it. I enjoy reading them. It gives me something to laugh at while I am at work.
T. H. Park
Professional
Probably good advice. But maybe he is trying to play according to the time limits that abide the game of tennis? I like Roddick a lot as he comes across as a honest and down-to-earth person. Verdasco seems like another guy who falls into that category - at least for me.
T. H. Park
Professional
And you are surprised that I react ... exactly why is that?
You only see what you want to see, don't you? Just go back to some of the responses to posts earlier. I actually agree a lot with what people say. Don't lie and use words like "everybody," "only," etc.
What's your point? Just because some umpires refuse to abide by code violations, timing violations, some of the items in the Rule Book makes it OK for you and for me? Where is the fairness factor?
Subjectivity? Common sense? Are you serious? Have you seen other posts just in this topic who are addressing what I am addressing? I would challenge you to start a topic with the the title: "Should a player get a point penalty after getting a warning if s/he goes over the time limit by 300% or so - a player who is known to go over the time limit frequently" and see what people say. Common sense? You make me laugh.
It's stupid things like this that annoy me. I am not a saint period. I don't actually believe in saints and am no "saint" on court. I try to be as respectful, mindful, and fair as possible to the opponent that I play whenever possible. But definitely am not saint. I never said this ... please do not put words in my mouth and claim things out of your own imagination.
I insult you? Your memory serves you so badly. You are the one who always starts "fights" by insulting me.
It was this very same topic (w.r.t. timing violations) where you actually apologized for being insulting and you tell me that I am insulting to you? I firmly do believe that you should not be an umpire not speak for the USTA as you certainly are in the mode of getting people aggrivated by insulting them and lying.
Again, waiting for evidence of all of my "nonsense" posts that you claim I posted. Please do not insult me like this ...
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But this is the strange thing: Nadal did not fist pump or shout out when I saw him twice at Wimbledon( once playing Murray) and he certainly didn't have those muscles they keep exagerating in his photos. He came accross as a very good but controlled tennis player. He doesn't have to fist pump anymore (much) I think this is when he was climbing the ladder
T. H. Park
Professional
I am not sure, as that's not what I have "seen" and "heard" on TV - it may have been in those two matches you saw for some reason. Easy enough to check on YouTube.
I doubt that it is so much different on TV vs. live in front of you as far as the bigness factor is concerned (the loudness factor could be, however, as they are using microphones and amplification and the production process - wonder what the dB level actually on court for folks like Sharapova and Serena). Usually, not always, the "bigness" factor becomes smaller on TV as it is relative (big people standing next to each other makes them not seem big). If you see those athletes with your own eyes, they usually seem bigger and taller. That's my experience at least (American football players are an extreme example). Verdasco especially seems to be in that category.
Most of these guys are 180 cm and above - 185 cm may be the average and going up to 190 cm is common too. Smaller players are also not that small ... probably only VERY few players below 170 cm if any on the men's tour. The great majority are probably over 175 cm. These folks are big people with big thighs are arms - compared to the normal club player that is, and am sure their shots are as heavy as ***, no doubt.
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