But they met at AO just twice while at FO they met like 8-9 times. Nadal consistently failed to show up on best surface of rivals. That's what made H2H what it is.
Nadal - Djokovic H2H off clay
- Thread starter King_ Zeglan12
- Start date
But they met at AO just twice while at FO they met like 8-9 times. Nadal consistently failed to show up on best surface of rivals. That's what made H2H what it is.
Hitman
Bionic Poster
I understand this. I speak of in regards to who is favored on what surface really.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
Just a small correction: 10 times at FO and 9 times in Rome.
Meanwhile, 2 at AO and 3 in Miami.
Such a disgusting skew hasn't been seen in tennis since the times of Spencer Gore.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
It also proves Djokovic was far more consistent and better on clay to consistently reach Nadal compared to Nadal reaching djoko on HC or grass.
Like you said the fact they met countless times at Rome and RG finals and semis which are Nadal’s best tournaments says it all.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Exactly. If they met at a more proportional rate, Djokovic would lead this head to head by a bigger margin than he leads the one with Federer.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
I agree. It’s quite remarkable Novak leads the H2H considering how much they met on clay over their careers. I’m hoping for a non-clay meeting next year as it would make a nice change to the rivalry than another red dirt match again.
Yeah the H2H with Fed was more even as they were quite well matched on all surfaces. It certainly was the most competitive out of the big 3 rivalries and less surface dependent.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Djokovic got to face Nadal 7 times in 2015-2016, but Nadal only got to face Djokovic once in 2017. The current head-to-head is 30-29 to Djokovic, so 2015-2016 (when Djokovic won all 7 matches) puts Djokovic ahead in the head-to-head.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
If it's not embarassing for the so called GOAT not to push a single match at RG to decide after 6 tries and being unable to beat Nadal in BO5 for 10 years, then this is not too
Nadal_Django
Legend
Djokovic has two perfectly legit wins against Nadal at RG the ultimate surface specialist who is preparing and planning the whole season around that tournament. Nadal OTOH is hiding whenever he sees Djokovic deep into the second week of an off clay Slam.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Adjusting for peak Djokovic vulturing against worst Nadal , H2H will be 28-21 in favour of Nadal
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Still the so called surface specialist has one more slam than your so called versatile guru lol
Nadal_Django
Legend
If they've met at a proportional rate the H2H would be something like 80-45 Djokovic.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Could've played at AO 09,14,17,22
If Djokovic didn't hold his end at his pet slam , what can Nadal do , had they met there , it would be 6 meeting at AO
Regarding RG , 2 matches hold no value whatsoever RG 06 and RG 15, effectively we have 8 matches
Regarding Wimbledon both peaked at different timeframe and one had peak Federer while the other had mid 30s Federer, still I agree Djokovic is a WIM legend with 7 titles
Coming to the USO, It's Nadal fault that he often skipped the tournament, but given Djokovic's performance we can't just hand him win like the AO
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Agree, H2H has always been a subjective stat
Biotic
Hall of Fame
But then you have to adjust it for peak Nadal vulturings vs Staminavic and Crapovic, too, which brings us back to my infallible 3:2 ratio in favor of Djokomeister.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Given Wawa beat Nadal far more easily than he beat Djokovic at AO 14, you can hardly complain about Djokovic not reaching Nadal there.
AO 22 is pure speculation. Maybe if Djokovic was there, Nadal might not even have that extra zeal to get over Shapo.
RG 06 isn't of much value since Djokovic wasn't even top 10, but RG 15 does (nadal was still top 10 and 5-time defending champ). definitely dampened by Djoko's loss to Wawa though.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
This is a rehash thread with 40 similar flame wars. A simple "search forums" will get literally every argument on both sides of the isle. There is no "pigeon" in a 30-29 h2h and they even split 6 exhibition matches on HC, and Nadal leads 2-0 in official Doubles also HC. The big matches BO5 Clay saw Nole go 2-9 and Nadal go 5-7 HC (Slams, National Representation, ATP Cup). Nadal leads 26-25 official Outdoor matches (and 1-0 exhibitions). Nadal leads 5-4 GS Finals (6 matches outside of Clay). Moreover, 15-11 biggest matches (Slams, National Rep (Olympics, Davis Cup, ATP Finals) with that distribution not skewered to clay since it was 12 HC, 11 Clay, and 3 Grass.
Nole since 2011 has dominated off clay but he also had only 1 BO5 HC match against Nadal between 2006-2010 (2010 USO). With his prior Gluten issue perhaps those HC M1000 Finals could've been different if they were BO5. Federer was 5-2 between 2006-2010 against Nole at Bo5 HC. Nadal was also 4-1 at their biggest matches (Slams, Olympics, ATP Finals). Imagine if he was on the same half of the draw as Fed was with Nole in slams?
As for the 7 Nadal losses between 2015-2016 this was not the best Nadal version as the Nole between 2017 and early 2018. However, it was obvious that Nole was at a very high level and even healthy Nadal gets between 2-3 wins at most. The 2017 Madrid match could also have been different if Nole had a healthy elbow. The H2H is pretty much even all things considered.
Nole since 2011 has dominated off clay but he also had only 1 BO5 HC match against Nadal between 2006-2010 (2010 USO). With his prior Gluten issue perhaps those HC M1000 Finals could've been different if they were BO5. Federer was 5-2 between 2006-2010 against Nole at Bo5 HC. Nadal was also 4-1 at their biggest matches (Slams, Olympics, ATP Finals). Imagine if he was on the same half of the draw as Fed was with Nole in slams?
As for the 7 Nadal losses between 2015-2016 this was not the best Nadal version as the Nole between 2017 and early 2018. However, it was obvious that Nole was at a very high level and even healthy Nadal gets between 2-3 wins at most. The 2017 Madrid match could also have been different if Nole had a healthy elbow. The H2H is pretty much even all things considered.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
9-0 ( 19-0 in sets ) is highly circumstantial stat , but 4-3 & 2-1bud ( USO ) is extremely accurate and well deserved stat .
Yes, it shows Doha and ATP cup are irrelevant
AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
I think this is a fair point. Don't have the stats with me, but I think Nadal had a very high 1st serve percentage when he won those 20 straight HC matches earlier this year and there would be no excuses if he lost on HC if they played. There is a decent chance they can meet at the ATP Finals later this year if they are put on the same RR draw.
I would agree with the last statement about it being "surface dependent" but it wasn't always the case. Nole had defeated Nadal 2 straight at HC before the 2008 Olympic match and won 3 straight HC before the 2010 USO. Nadal did "step-up" for the important matches.
When you factor temperature and wind you find many of the results are climate dependent. The wind got to 30MPH in their 2013 USO Final and all of a sudden, the FH errors started to accumulate.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Good one., But you have to then take into account Injurdal and not in-formdal , so again falls back to Nadal leadingBut then you have to adjust it for peak Nadal vulturings vs Staminavic and Crapovic, too, which brings us back to my infallible 3:2 ratio in favor of Djokomeister.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Not complaining about AO 14, just stating Djokovic didn't make it, agreed about AO22
Anybody looking at RG15 Nadal could say he was hardly playing like a 9 time Champ and also he did come quite close to losing his Top 10 spot around WIM if I'm not wrong
Biotic
Hall of Fame
Good one., But you have to then take into account Injurdal and not in-formdal , so again falls back to Nadal leading
I don't have to cuz you already did.
As i already said, my analysis is infallible, no point arguing.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Hope we find who's better between Crapdal and Crapovic come 2023I don't have to cuz you already did.
As i already said, my analysis is infallible, no point arguing.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
But back then Nadal fans were having none of it. H2H was everything for them. And kept belittling Fed because of it.
Now they try to explain away Nadal's losses to Djokovic like they actually believed there is no way Nadal would ever be owned. They thought he was infallible.
I agree with you by the way, but just adding more context.
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AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
10 meetings at RG is a hell of a lot I admit but Djokovic has had the form advantage and fitness for sooooo long that the H2H is pretty fair. Best case you could argue it's a tiny bit against Djokovic but anything more than that is slander.
Agree also that was a lot of matches. I think the balance is that they played 9 times in Rome which is Nole's favorite Clay tournament. Nole has won Rome 6 times and made 12 finals there. I think Miami being the only other M1000 he won 6 times. He has even stated outside of Serbia he feels the most at home in Italy (fluent and likes it there). He is 3-6 against Nadal there which could've different if they played 9 times in Barcelona. Nadal's three best HC are Canada, USO, and Acapulco which he got Nole only 5 times there which is 3-2 and also won a Rogers Cup Doubles match.
Where I think Nadal did have the advantage is 2 things. He did get him four times in his home country which he leads 3-1 (3 times Madrid and once in Davis Cup). In addition, roughly 2 out of their 3 matches Nadal was more well-rested. In fairness, this was often because he had beaten his early opponents in straight sets (especially in Clay). At other times he was unstoppable as 2007 Indian Wells where he didn't even lose one set.
Biotic
Hall of Fame
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
I never considered H2H as be all end all, though it's sometimes important
I didn't mean to put down Federer, wanted to give that guy the same treatment so took it up
I'm a Nadal fan but I'm not going to put the other 2 down to feel secure lol
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
abmk
Bionic Poster
He wasn't, but still top 10 for sure and Nadal ended year at #5. definitely worth considering.
abmk
Bionic Poster
caveat though: those 3 match wins for Djoko in 09 on HC were in 2nd half of 2009, far away from USO 10.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
There has always been a GS played in Red Clay since 1908 and there was a second GS played in Green Clay (1975-1977) and a HC slam was not added until 1978. There was also a period in which 3 out of 4 Slams were played in Grass. Nowadays, the sport is essentially a two surface sport as many players outside of Wimbledon don't even bother to play in a second grass tournament.
BTW, hyenas are found mulitple habitats which include forrests, grasslands, and even elevated mountains.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Mustard
Bionic Poster
The closest that Nadal came to going outside the top 10 was during the 2015 French Open. With Nadal losing to Djokovic in the quarter finals, had Tsonga beaten Wawrinka in the semi finals then Nadal would have gone outside the top 10. Wawrinka went on to win the tournament, so Nadal stayed in the top 10. Then Nadal won a grass tournament in Stuttgart in bizarre fashion, but poor results at Queen's Club and Wimbledon after that. Come late July, entering Hamburg, Nadal was ranked 10 and again threatened with going outside the top 10, but Nadal won the tournament.
Strangely, Nadal's most consistent 2015 form was late in the year (post-US Open), despite no tournament win at that time.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
I don't follow your reasoning. Djokovic has won the AO 9 times. Out of those 9 times Nadal has only played him 2 times in his title runs. Nadal has won RG 14 times. Out of those 14 times, Djokovic played Nadal 8 times in those title runs, so more than half. To match this, he would have had to play Djokovic 5 times at AO. This shows one was better at the other's favorite Slam so he played him a lot more. Even if Djokovic made it to all those matches, it still would be a discrepancy between the two.
Nadal had a small window of 3 years where he played Federer at Wimbledon when Federer was in his 20s. His streak coincided with Djokovic's 1st Wimbledon final where he was beaten soundly. After that, he didn't even make it to the QF for 7 years. It's one thing to not win Wimbledon, and it's a complete other to be losing to player after player outside of the top 100.
You know.
If it's HC / Grass - straight set drubbing if Nadal. If it's clay - we are not sure who the winner will be.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
You can look up to history and stats but never be sure of the result
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
But level not good enough for Top 5 in strong years like 2005, 08-13..
abmk
Bionic Poster
like 04-05,07-09,11-13? yeah, I'd say so.
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
Meant to include 07 too, but that level will definitely warrant a top 5 ranking from 2016+
King_ Zeglan12
Professional
I agree that Nadal is to blame for the measly number of meetings but one thing to consider is Nadal has always been waiting for Djokovic at RG while Novak didn't do so 4 times
So a unique case of Nadal being godlike at RG , Djokovic being Mr Consistent and Djokovic not dominating AO like RG à la Nadal and Nadal himself being super injury prone lead to this RG skew
Coming to Wimbledon, I wouldn't include 2017 there but from 12-15 he was inexplicably pedestrian there
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Ok so if Djokovic made it to all those matches, it still would be 10 matches at RG and 6 matches at AO. That's still a significant difference.
It's because Djokovic is better at RG than Nadal is at AO. It really is that simple. Djokovic has been to the SF or better at RG 11 times. Nadal has done so at AO 7 times.
Underdog
Professional
Same argument could be used for Nadal.
2010 - Winner
2011 - Runner up
2012 - Injury
2013 - Winner
2014 - Injury
Had he been in form at both 2012 and 2014, he could very much have won those.
Also, having won AO 19 would not guarantee a win at the USO against Nadal at all for Nole. It’d be an open match.
16 he lost to a deserving Wawrinka despite not being 100%, 17 he would not beat either Nadal or Federer. 18 he was a deserving champion, even though Nadal could have a shot of not injured. 20 he messed himself up, sadly (for him). 21 he faced a zoned Meddy and finally 22 he chose not to play and there were absolutely no guarantee he’d win.
People need to stop accounting Djokovic for champion of tournaments he doesn’t even play.
Point is that in spite of what you said, the only year post 2014 that Djokovic was truly a lock against Nadal at USO is 2015 - maybe 2016 too, despite his injury.
Underdog
Professional
It has to be noted that 8 out of 14 and 2 out of 9 is a biased conclusion. 14 title runs for Nadal at RG covers for almost every RG edition since they’ve become top players. Whilst 9 title runs doesn’t cover as much of the AO editions played by them as top players - Nadal himself reached 4 finals without having to face Djokovic along the way. Pretty different scenarios, I think.
Underdog
Professional
That’s a bit biased.
Djokovic has seen the AO final from inside the court on 9 occasions - in two of them he faced Nadal.
Nadal has seen the AO final 6 times - Djokovic was only there 2 times as well.
The difference is obvious, but not so one sides as people are made to believe and it’s surely overstated by people who blindly believe that Djokovic would simply win those 4 times Nadal went the distance without a clash thus underestimating Nadal’s argument.
AgassiSuperSlam11
Professional
There are six times in which Nadal had a legit chance at defeating Nole in AO:
2007-This Nole version lost to Fed in straight sets
2009-Nole lost to Tsonga and Nadal won the tournament playing at a high peak.
2010- Nole quit against Roddick in the QF?
2014-This would've been a 50-50 match if played before Nadal's back went out (Nole lost to Stan)
2017-Istomin got a vulture win against Nole
2018-Chung got another vulture win against Nole
I won't include a green Nole in 2005 and 2006 who lost in the 1st R since Nadal didn't play in the tournament. Remember, Nadal was ahead 4-2 in the fifth set in 2012 so in top form they had a competitive match. Agassi was 3-0 against Sampras AO/FO but if they played three more times in those slams; it's no guarantee it would be 6-0 as what Sampras did to Agassi in Wim/USO.
Although Nole gets credit for the 2015 and 2021 FO wins remember the first included a Nadal who was getting owned in Clay already by Stan and Murray, while the 2021 match had no injection. In fact, 4 of the 8 times Nole beat Nadal in clay he wasn't even Top 4. I won't say vulture, but if Nadal gets Nole 3 times in HC back in 2017 and early 2018 then maybe that HC streak ends there. Moreover, Nadal has 23 Top 4 wins against Nole while Nole has 22 wins against a Top 4 Nadal. This helps put things
in perspective.
This is like Ozzy and Dio fans arguing about which version of Black Sabbath is better? Arguments can be made until eternity, but you can also enjoy the music and tennis as well.
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