Nadal faced the very best of Federer at Wimbledon than Djokovic ever did
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SecondToNone
Semi-Pro
Congratulations to Nadal then i guess
ActualTennisPlayer
Semi-Pro
2012: Unreturned Serve Percentage (44/101) 44%
2014: Unreturned Serve Percentage (67/192) 35%
2015: Unreturned Serve Percentage (44/141) 31%
Clearly Fed was more Serve botting in 2012. do you know how easy it is to win if with an unreturned serve percentage of 44%?
Edit: data are from the matches vs djokovic at Wimbledon. Source: this forum.
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Unreturned serve % in what matches?
He got a bagel for his efforts
ActualTennisPlayer
Semi-Pro
Ah sorry to not be clear about that.
These are the matches vs Djokovic at Wimbledon.
I got the data from our forum
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Yes, let's ignore that Fed himself actually declined afterwards because it's all about Djokovic.
Garro
Rookie
Nope.
2012: Percentage of 4+ Shot Rallies Won (43/85) 50.5%
2014: Percentage of 4+ Shot Rallies Won (67/144) 46.5%
2015: Percentage of 4+ Shot Rallies Won (56/113) 49.6%
2019: Percentage of 4+ Shot Rallies Won (82/177) 46.3%
Fed was outplaying Djokovic from the baseline in 2012, which did not happen in their other Wimbledon matches.
It is true that Fed was also serving outstandingly in 2012, but the unreturned serve percentage is a little misleading here: Djoker was making many odd, sometimes uncharacteristic errors off the Fed second serve in that match.
2014 Final is a better example of a serve botting match because Fed wasn't really having much success...other than having an amazing serving day.
Winning 44.1% of his second serves is one of his lowest in any Wimbledon match and for that matter winning 34.8% of the Djokovic second serve isn't much better.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
Slay bestie
James_Bolt
Rookie
That's why H2H is not an important metric to assess the achievements of a player.
There are many factors that affect the H2H:
- Surface matters: players don't meet equally across surfaces
- Age matters: players don't have the same age when they meet
- Peak matters: players don't meet when they are both in their prime
- Format matters: Players don't meet equally across formats BO3 & BO5 - sprint vs marathon
- Draw matters: Players don’t get exactly the same draw difficulties. Some draws are tougher and a good player can lose early in a tournament and don’t get to meet the player they are compared to.
That’s why people like to breakdown the H2H into subsets:
- H2H during a specific year
- H2H during a specific decade
- H2H on a specific surface
- H2H is specific tournaments
- H2H in Grand Slams
- H2H in finals
- etc
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
While already copying the other thread why not take the chance and correct the nonsensical thread title.
Djokovic_is_the_best#1
Bionic Poster
People make out Federer was at his very best in that 2008 Wimbledon final. He was pretty mediocre in it for 2 and bit sets.
I seen much better Federer performances than that at Wimbledon in his later years.
I seen much better Federer performances than that at Wimbledon in his later years.
D
Deleted member 779124
Guest
It's a opinion but we don't have to believe Federer was getting better and didn't decline either.
ActualTennisPlayer
Semi-Pro
Nope.
My statistics are pretty clear - Fed‘s serve was the best in 2012. having an unreturned serve percentage of 44% almost guarantees you a match - especially if the opponent is not know for his serve but his return.
Now if we look at the rallies won by length. Djokovic actually has the edge in the 7-9 and 10+ rallies. Federer was just better in the 4-7 rallies. So you can’t really say Fed was better from the baseline. Moreover, What we have to take into account here is that great serving impacts rally. If you just dominating on your serve you can play more confident and freely the rallies. On the flipside, if your opponent is serve botting you get frustrated and play more tight.
RS
Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?
1. Federer RG 09 final or Nadal AO 12 final
2. Federer Wim 12 final or Del Potro USO 09 final
3. Davydenko AO 06 QF or Nadal USO 11 final
4. Hewitt Wim 09 QF or Murray AO 13 final
5. Del Potro Wim 18 QF or Djokovic Wim 21 final
6. Del Potro RG 09 SF or Djokovic AO 14 QF
1. Federer RG 09 final or Nadal AO 12 final
2. Federer Wim 12 final or Del Potro USO 09 final
3. Davydenko AO 06 QF or Nadal USO 11 final
4. Hewitt Wim 09 QF or Murray AO 13 final
5. Del Potro Wim 18 QF or Djokovic Wim 21 final
6. Del Potro RG 09 SF or Djokovic AO 14 QF
James_Bolt
Rookie
Why didn't Nadal manage to face the "past prime" Federer as well and get more Wimbledon titles from 2012 to 2019?
Coming to 2012, Nadal successes on grass (2 Grand Slams) show that he was a very good grass player.
The age difference between Nadal and Djokovic is 11 months
abmk
Bionic Poster
that's kind of you towards him. Him bringing up cherrypicked stats does not make his point. fed was getting hammered from the baseline in Wim 14 final (bar the 4th set) and lost a lot of points as stats would show in Wim 14. See below.
obviously not too many UEs off the ground as Federer was playing safe. the winner count obviously coming from serve +net play+some putaways from the ground.
its a shameless loser's propaganda to say fed in Wim 14 final wasn't much worse than fed in Wim 07 final.
a crappy opinion like that isn't worth anything.
Here, Wim 14 final, gap of 25 points which had a return (3+ shot points). that's big.
In Wim 12 semi: 3+ shots, federer was up by 2. (+2)
Even in Wim 15 final 3+ shots, federer was down by only 4 (-4)
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Third Serve
Talk Tennis Guru
If you believe Fed peaked in 2015, you can believe a great many things.
Not the same... In tennis once you reach the top you are supposed to be pushed by younger rivals with ATG potential. This has happened to Federer since 2005 with nadal plus Djokovic since 2011.
Djokovic barely had this type of competition in his career, only now with Alcaraz and Rune.
Razer
Legend
Lets look at slams where Federer was pushed and where Federer was not pushed by younger ATG
2003W - NO
2004AO - NO, infact the harder draw was given to Marat, not sure Roger emerges unscathed from Marat's draw
2004W - NO
2004USO - Hell NO
2005W - Hell NO
2005USO - NO
2006AO - Hell NO
2006W - YES, Nadal was a rookie with no serve but I will still give a yes for the sake of a challenge posed
2006USO - NO
2007AO - NO
2007W - YES, but he won, a great win
2007USO - YES, Novak was a rookie & a choker but I'll still give Federer a yes since this was the emergence ...
2008USO - YES
2009FO - Hell NO
2009W - NO
2010AO - NO
So thats 12 slams without any younger ATG pushing him. To make things worse, his own peer group had no ATG at all, he bulldozed them all which was a bit too easy for him. He struggled vs his peers until 2003 but quickly took off and exploited the vacuum. So Djokovic's explloits in his 30s without a so called young ATG is quite ok.... Infact I would say 2018USO, 2019W and 3 slams of 2021 & 2 slams of 22+23 ... that is 7 slams are what he had without a push from a younger ATG, maybe you could add 2016FO also into the mix and make it 8.... Thats it. So Federer enjoyed more sunny days that Novak ever did. We enjoyed watching Federer b make a joke of clowns like Roddick, now we are enjoying Djokovic make a joke of clowns like Tsistipas and Berretini, so whats the harm in it ? It is all a part of the package. So I agree with @nachiket nolefam
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ActualTennisPlayer
Semi-Pro
Good points. Though for the breakdown to make sense you need a larger sample size. For example, the 2>1 nadal vs djokovic US open talk is meaningless due to the small sample size.
I think most of the factors you mentioned are not that relevant for the big 3 though:
- surface matters: just look at h2h per surface
- age and prime matters: for Djokovic-nadal and Federer-nadal this is not an issue. For Federer-Djokovic this is an issue.
- format matters: I don’t find that relevant as big 3 are good across all formats. Plus you can look at h2h per format.
- draw matter: with a large sample size this should equal out.
Federev
Legend
And then post-prime Federer beat physiological peak Djokovic at Wimbledon in 2012.
More laws needed!
Federev
Legend
Does clay not count?
Federev
Legend
Barry Bonds and Floyd Mayweather and Bill Russell probably wish you were right.
Federev
Legend
“Destroy Fed’s aura”
No offense, but this is essentially garbage trash talk.
I can’t tell if it’s wishful thinking or fear response over compensating.
You can say all you want about Novak being goat and destroying Federer’s aura.
It won’t change anyone’s mind.
These threads alone prove it.
Do you think the general public - which views him - on average - less favorably than you is going to be swayed by stuff like this?
People still watch Sampras and Magic Johnson and Joe Montanan clips even tho their stats are passed.
Simple fact is numbers don’t mean everything to folks. Barry Bonds obliterated the HR record. But he’s a hard to like guy and can’t hold a candle to Babe Ruth or Reggie Jackson or Hank Aaron in terms of “aura” or goat level legend.
Say it a billion more times. It won’t change anything. It will just get likes from his fans here.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
It does but it only gives argument more for Rsfa to be greatest on clay, not overall
Razer
Legend
Mayweather is the GOAT, why else is the GOAT in his weight class ? Name someone if you can, if you cannot then dont ever take Mayweather's name.
Bonds and Russell played a team sport, so they have their own detractors but in a 1 on 1 sport there is no place to hide, here you are the sole owner of your failures as well as success
So here the man with the best number in an era is the winner and the other rivals are losers.... hate to use the word losers to guys who are equals in ability but it has to be used here, in sports there is only 1 winner and thats the man with most of the big records !
Federev
Legend
How does it help Novak’s case to lose so often on a significant surface tho?
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Where?
Federev
Legend
Mayweather is the GOAT, why else is the GOAT in his weight class ? Name someone if you can, if you cannot then dont ever take Mayweather's name.
Bonds and Russell played a team sport, so they have their own detractors but in a 1 on 1 sport there is no place to hide, here you are the sole owner of your failures as well as success
So here the man with the best number in an era is the winner and the other rivals are losers.... hate to use the word losers to guys who are equals in ability but it has to be used here, in sports there is only 1 winner and thats the man with most of the big records !
More qualifiers .
People have been using the word goat to describe Jordan playing a team sport long before Novak won his first slam.
If you ask people who the goat of boxing is - most are probably going to say Ali - then maybe Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. The average person is not going to say “what weight class”.
If we’re going to talk qualifiers - the truth is Novak never dominated Federer in Fed’s prime.
Beat a mid 30s Fed at SW19? Rafa was pushing him starting in 2006. Took Novak till 2014 to get a win over an almost 33 year old Fed six years his senior.
If anything - peak for peak - Rafa has a better claim to GOAThood than Novak.
Federev
Legend
8-2 for Rafa at RG.
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
Considering that all other players made 1 win combined it is good score.... From 18 slams matches 10 were on clay...
Razer
Legend
01. Qualifiers ? ..... Tennis doesn't have HEIGHT CLASS, if 5'4 to 5'9, 5'10 to 6'0, 6'1 to 6'3 & 6'4+ were height classes then Laver, Borg, Djokovic & Safin would be the 4 GOATs, otherwise what is the guarantee a 5'7 guy can win 20+ slams today? Your qualifier is not at all valid, even peak Federer never faced peak Novak, so that makes peak Fed's wins also questionable, by your own logic.... So no, your logic is not valid
02. average person ? .... Avg people called Fed the goat in 2000s and even in 2010s but today in 2023 the avg person tilts towards Djokovic in a few surveys.....this is because of numbers..... avg people only see numbers, everybody likes the person ahead, nobody gives attention to beauty in a sports where gladiators collide to find out who is better..... Federer's goathood's prime foundation was numbers, the secondary foundation was his dominance.... the primary foundation has been broken.... so he is out.
03. Team Sports vs Individual sport is a very real thing, in individual sports the goathood is more clear, in a team sport it is just not clear.... nobody knows for sure whether messi is better than ronado or not... for all we know if their teams were swapped then messi would be without a world cup while ronaldo would be with a world cup....that would make ronaldo the goat.... the consensus ? ... So no.,..talk of individual sport only
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Federev
Legend
Federer never faced peak Novak?
They both faced eachother in peak years.
Slams for example:
Novak played Federer at the USO in 2007 and was very good, but lost. Lost in ‘08 and ‘09 as Roger moved away from his peak, but was still in prime years.
Post-prime Federer played peak Novak at RG in 2011 and won in 4. Beat Novak in 2012 in Wimbledon.
None of Novak’s Wimbledon matches with Fed were at Fed’s peak. It doesn’t mean they aren’t good wins, but it does mean he wasn’t able to meet him when Rafa was able and the closest we get is 2012 which wasn’t really that close.
To be the best you need to beat the best at their best. Novak hasn’t really done that w Fed. He never dominated Federer in Fed’s peak. He has a losing record v Nadal at USO and RG (by a lot).
These are numbers too and they’re important in the discussion.
You can say they aren’t but that’s just your opinion.
Also - you wrote:
“avg people only see numbers, everybody likes the person ahead, nobody gives attention to beauty in a sports where gladiators collide to find out who is better..... Federer's goathood's prime foundation was numbers”
Opinions.
People don’t give attention to beauty in sports? What in the world? Maybe for a lot of Novak fans.
I don’t know how long you’ve been watching tennis, but people were talking about Federer as the GOAT long before he eclipsed Sampras. It was his game. It blew people away - he played with an aggression and a variety of tools folks hadn’t seen - and his years of domination were unparalleled.
So that’s just plain wrong. Fed was talked about as goat long before the slam record. People knew it was more than stats.
Novak is YOUR goat. That’s fine.
He’s not mine nor a lot of other people.
Now if he’d dominated Fed in his best years ? That’s strong.
But he didn’t. Unlike Rafa, Novak had to wait till Fed got old to really dominate him.
Where was he with the domination from 2005-2012?
Does age matter now?
insideoutforehands
Semi-Pro
This is actually true beyond a doubt. That said there is a monstrous disparity in their records, and Djokovic has done better vs the field at Wimbledon easily (minus Murray, who Nadal has clearly done better against, which is a key person, but only 1 player), and Djokovic has gotten the better of Nadal in their match ups at Wimbledon. So it doesn't matter.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Federev
Legend
Oops. I misunderstood your first point.
You’re right that peak Novak and peak Roger never met.
Closest we get is their 2009-2012 time span I suppose.
But my point is still valid. Saying that Novak is the goat while admitting he couldn’t dominate Federer in his best years leave a considerable question mark in my view.
To be the best ever - goat - whatever - I think you need to beat the best at their best. Novak wasn’t able to do that with Federer or Rafa (at the USO or RG).
Unseeded Player
Hall of Fame
And Novak defeated him in 2010, 2011 and 2015....Despite the age Fed was still above all others on the tour.. Again you with RG11, what happened at AO11, US11, IW and Dubai 2011? WB12 was his last win against Novak at slams..Weak for the goat argument considering that he was competitive until 2019.. Rafa beat Fed in 2008 and it was close in 2007, not to mention that grass is his weakest surface, on the other side Fed wasn't even close at RG.. Fed in 2014, 2015 and 2019 lost 1, 1 and 3 sets total until he faced Novak in the final, so the age argument is invalid, Novak has raised the bar..
And Fed dominated Novak when Nole was a kid just entering the tour.. Novak was 18 in 2005, even in 2009 he did defeated Fed in 3 from 5 matches H2H...Fed entered his prime in 2004 age 23, Novak entered his prime in 2011 age 24..
Razer
Legend
Peak for Peak that means hypothetically ?
Sure, Nadal has the best hypothetical argument over both Federer and Djokovic, even though I don't indulge in IFs and BUTs I must warn Fed Fans that if Peak for Peak is done, then Rafa emerges the GOAT, not your boy Federer.
Nadal is the only guy who is assured 14 slams on his resume in any era.... that means if all the ATGs of all eras are born together then Nadal still takes 14 french opens while Nole takes a lot of AOs, Federer is busy battling Pete for the Ws and USOs and I think Pete will take most of those slams, he was a savage on Grass and in his backyard USA, so by your own logic Roger is no GOAT.
Luckily we don't see any peak for peak in real life, in real life we only see numbers and the winner is the greatest ..... Period!
In Sports "beauty" is irrelevant. If 2 boxers are boxing or 2 armwrestlers are wrestling then we wanna see who wins, not the one who is the most stylish.
I have been watching Tennis before Roger won his 1st slam and unlike you I was a Fed fan in 2000s for his dominance (remem you once mentioned that you found 90s boring because Pete made it a bore, then you found 2000s bore because Federer made it a bore, in 2010s you started to support Federer more since you like old men battling young men, isn't it? You said this.... ) .... So unlike you I was a hardcore Fed fan for his dominance and I did not care for Pete in those days before the record itself, but then 2023 is not same as 2009, the greatness of Roger was established on numbers itself. When he lost to Nadal then we were still curious to see when he would win his 7th wimbledon, the win vs Roddick in 09 was still his 6th but we saw that he reached 15 and honestly we did not give a f**k for Pete because for me Pete was always an old man from the day I started following Tennis, so no connect with him as such in those times. But today over the years that followed I have seen Novak break record by record, he also made Fed choke on some occasions, so in my mind I see a worthy challenger emerge, so when this guy emerges ahead in records then I give him the consensus..... It is plain an simple.....
Even Novak faced Fed from 2006 untill 2009 and he was losing, sameway Fed faced Novak from 2014 onwards till 2020 and he was losing, so they have all faced each other when 1 was pre peak/post peak and other was at his peak.
2010-2012 is a overlap of peak vs peak or prime vs prime
Novak won their matches at USO2010, AO2011, USO2011, FO2012 while Federer won FO2011 and W2012
So that is 4-2 prime vs prime for Fedovic .....
The Tide shifted in 2022, this will only get much worse for Federer
Federev
Legend
I’m not making a goat argument here for Fed.
I’m responding to folks asserting an unassailable argument for Novak as goat.
Rafa showed that someone from Novak’s generation could battle Federer at Federer’s peak for the biggest titles again and again - and win.
Novak couldn’t do that.
Federev
Legend
Peak for Peak that means hypothetically ?
Sure, Nadal has the best argument over both Federer and Djokovic, even though I don't indulge in IFs and BUTs I must warn Fed Fans that if Peak for Peak is done, then Rafa emerges the GOAT, not your boy Federer.
Nadal is the only guy who is assured 14 slams on his resume in any era.... that means if all the ATGs of all eras are born together then Nadal still takes 14 french opens while Nole takes a lot of AOs, Federer is busy battling Pete for the Ws and USOs, so by your own logic Roger is no GOAT.
Luckily we don't see any peak for peak in real life, in real life we only see numbers and the winner is the greatest ..... Period!
In Sports "beauty" is irrelevant. If 2 boxers are boxing or 2 armwrestlers are wrestling then we wanna see who wins, not the one who is the most stylish.
I have been watching Tennis before Roger won his 1st slam and unlike you I was a Fed fan in 2000s his dominance (remem you once mentioned that you found 90s boring because Pete made it a bore, then you found 2000s bore because Federer made it a bore, in 2010s you started to support Federer more since you like old men battling young men, isn't it? You said this.... ) .... So unlike you I was a hardcore Fed fan for his dominance and I did not care for Pete in those days before the record itself, but then 2023 is not same as 2009, the greatness of Roger was established on numbers itself. When he lost to Nadal then we were still curious to see when he would win his 7th wimbledon, the win vs Roddick in 09 was still his 6th but we saw that he reached 15 and honestly we did not give a f**k for Pete because for Pete was always an old man from the day I started following Tennis, so no connect with him as such. But today over the years that followed I have seen Novak break record by record, he also made Fed choke on some occasions, so in my mind I see a worthy challenger emerge, so when this guy emerges ahead in records then I give him the consensus..... It is plain an simple.....
Even Novak faced Fed from 2006 untill 2009 and he was losing, sameway Fed faced Novak from 2014 onwards till 2020 and he was losing, so they have all faced each other when 1 was pre peak/post peak and other was at his peak.
2010-2012 is a overlap of peak vs peak or prime vs prime
Novak won their matches at USO2010, AO2011, USO2011, FO2012 while Federer won FO2011 and W2012
So that is 4-2 prime vs prime for Fedovic .....
The Tide shifted in 2022, this will only get much worse for Federer
You’ll never persuade me Novak is the goat. He didn’t dominate Federer at his best and he didn’t even do what Rafa did.
I respect him as a great champion, but I don’t think he’s plays the best tennis I’ve ever seen. For me it’s Fedal.
And I’m sure I’ll also never persuade you.
Federev
Legend
Novak didn’t dominate Federer until 2014 and later at the slams.
Fed took out Peakovic at RG in 11 and WB in 12 and had match points at the USO in 10 and 11 after beating him in 7,8,9.
That’s not domination.
At the slams Federer pretty much dominated everyone but Nadal on clay from 2005-2009.
Novak simply couldn’t give him trouble like Nadal did - who was about the same age as Novak.
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