Nadal-Feder stats compared (2007 and 2008 W finals)

krosero

Legend
A lot of comments have been made here about this year's final being low quality. The stats, however, don't bear that out -- not if you're talking about consistently great play over 5 sets.

If you're talking about break points it might be a different story, although even so there's a twist.

A few posters have pointed to Federer's 52 unforced errors in this year's final, but he also had 89 winners. In both categories he has higher numbers than last year, partly because this year's final was longer -- and partly because he was being more aggressive.


WINNERS AND ERRORS

Out of 323 points in last year's final, Federer made 65 winners, a rate of almost exactly 1 winner every 5 points.

Out of 413 points in this year's match, Federer made 89 winners, a rate of 1 every 4.6 points.

Last year he made 34 unforced errors, just slightly more than 1 every 10 points. This year he made 52 unforced errors, a rate of almost exactly 1 per 8 points.

So he was hitting winners at a faster rate in 2008, and also making errors at a faster rate.

Federer's differential this year was +35, and last year it was only +31, but that stat by itself doesn't mean that this year he played better. All the numbers were larger this year because more points were played, so the differential is expected to be larger.

Nadal's differential this year was 33, only 26 last year, but again that doesn't mean he played better. It doesn't even mean he hit winners more aggressively.

Last year Nadal had 50 winners. He was hitting them at a rate of 1 per 6.5 points. This year he hit 60 winners, so 1 per 6.9 points.

Last year Nadal had 24 unforced errors, so he made 1 error every 13.5 points. This year he made 27 unforced errors, so he made an error once every 15.3 points.

So Nadal's rate of winners was slower this year (barely), and his rate of errors was also slower.


Just going by the numbers, then, Federer was more aggressive this year, while Nadal was slightly more conservative – or consistent if you prefer.


NET STATS

Statistically I would not have expected Nadal’s rate of winners this year to be lower, because Federer was presenting more of a target at net.

Last year Fed won 30 of 51 approaches (59%), Nadal 18 of 26.
This year Fed won 42 of 75 approaches (56%), Nadal 22 of 31.

Nadal had more total approaches this year than last year, and the difference is just about what you would expect from the longer match. But the length of this year’s match does not explain the uptick in Federer’s approaches. If he kept his approach rate from last year, you’d expect him to have about 65 approaches this year – but he made 75.

If he was going to the net more aggressively this year, that would at least partly explain his higher rate of winners.


BREAK POINTS

Last year Nadal won 4 of 11 break points, Fed 3 of 8.
This year Nadal won 4 of 13 break points, Fed 1 of 13.

The numbers could suggest that Federer played a better match last year -- particularly if you don't give Nadal sufficient credit for saving the break points this year; I'm inclined to give him the credit.

And if you divide the break point chances by set, the numbers actually favor Federer in the last half of the match.

Federer's break point chances by set:
0-3
1-3
0-6
0-0
0-1 (his sole chance in the fifth was at 3-4)

Nadal's break point chances by set:

1-1
2-3
0-3
0-0
1-6 (Nadal had two chances at 5-all and four at 7-all)

I didn't think Federer was fired up until the third set. He was 1 for 12 on break points by the time they got to 3-all in that set (he had just failed to convert 4 break points in Nadal's last service game). Nadal pinned him at love-40 in the next game but couldn't convert, leaving Rafa at 3 for 7 in break point opportunities. Each player then held once before the rain delay, and Federer came back a better player.

In sum, after that rain delay Federer was 0 for 1 in break point chances, Nadal 1 for 6.

Break points are also not the only measure of key points. Conversion of match points is another measure, and in that stat Nadal needed 4 before he could convert.

Play in tiebreaks is another measure, and Federer took both tiebreaks (with 4 aces in the first one, out of only 6 points that he served).

It's true that Federer can be faulted in the first two and half sets for not converting more break points (and for failing to consolidate his only break). On the other hand, Nadal double-faulted at 5-2 in the fourth-set tiebreak and got tight on the backhand on the next point. And by my own judgment Nadal made two unforced errors when he had Federer at love-40 in the third set.

So in terms of playing well on important points, both players had their problems in '08 -- though not many after the first rain delay. In that last half of the match it was Nadal, arguably, who had the most serious trouble on important points: the 5-2 points in the tiebreak on his serve, break points in the fifth, match points. But Nadal also came through with the only break of serve, which is why he won.

In terms of playing well overall for five sets, the numbers suggest that they played more aggressively this year (with payoff), than last year.


SERVICE PERCENTAGES

Nadal's percentage went up by two points in 2008, to 73. He served more aces (6 to 1) and by common agreement has improved his serve.

Federer's percentage went down 5 points, to 66%. He served 25 aces compared to 24 last year, not a big improvement considering this year’s match was so much longer.
 
Goes to show the match was very very similar on many terms, and it was a matter of a few points that distinguished the winner.
 
actually i think nadal had 89 winners and federer had 60.
nvm nytimes thing is wrong i guess...
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/07/07/sports/20080707_TENNIS.html

I had noticed that too in the Times chart, but see this page: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080707/ap_on_sp_te_ga_su/ten_wimbledon

Federer lost despite serving 25 aces and smacking 89 winners, 29 more than Nadal. But he was more erratic than his opponent, committing 52 unforced errors, compared to 27 for Nadal.
 
Can I just say that as one of the people who doesn't think that the tennis this year was as good as lat year, I am not saying that it was other than very good tennis between the two outstanding players of the last few years. The point is just that it wasn't as good as last year. It was however much more dramatic.

Can you help me out with a point on the stats. If you took the Verdasco -- Ancic match, another match that went tight and long into the fifth, and compared the stats from that match with the stats from the final, what conclusions would you be able to draw about the respective quality of the tennis in the two matches?

Many thanks

cc
 
A lot of comments have been made here about this year's final being low quality. The stats, however, don't bear that out -- not if you're talking about consistently great play over 5 sets.

If you're talking about break points it might be a different story, although even so there's a twist.

A few posters have pointed to Federer's 52 unforced errors in this year's final, but he also had 89 winners. In both categories he has higher numbers than last year, partly because this year's final was longer -- and partly because he was being more aggressive.


WINNERS AND ERRORS

Out of 323 points in last year's final, Federer made 65 winners, a rate of almost exactly 1 winner every 5 points.

Out of 413 points in this year's match, Federer made 89 winners, a rate of 1 every 4.6 points.

Last year he made 34 unforced errors, just slightly more than 1 every 10 points. This year he made 52 unforced errors, a rate of almost exactly 1 per 8 points.

So he was hitting winners at a faster rate in 2008, and also making errors at a faster rate.

Federer's differential this year was +35, and last year it was only +31, but that stat by itself doesn't mean that this year he played better. All the numbers were larger this year because more points were played, so the differential is expected to be larger.

Nadal's differential this year was 33, only 26 last year, but again that doesn't mean he played better. It doesn't even mean he hit winners more aggressively.

Last year Nadal had 50 winners. He was hitting them at a rate of 1 per 6.5 points. This year he hit 60 winners, so 1 per 6.9 points.

Last year Nadal had 24 unforced errors, so he made 1 error every 13.5 points. This year he made 27 unforced errors, so he made an error once every 15.3 points.

So Nadal's rate of winners was slower this year (barely), and his rate of errors was also slower.


Just going by the numbers, then, Federer was more aggressive this year, while Nadal was slightly more conservative – or consistent if you prefer.


NET STATS

Statistically I would not have expected Nadal’s rate of winners this year to be lower, because Federer was presenting more of a target at net.

Last year Fed won 30 of 51 approaches (59%), Nadal 18 of 26.
This year Fed won 42 of 75 approaches (56%), Nadal 22 of 31.

Nadal had more total approaches this year than last year, and the difference is just about what you would expect from the longer match. But the length of this year’s match does not explain the uptick in Federer’s approaches. If he kept his approach rate from last year, you’d expect him to have about 65 approaches this year – but he made 75.

If he was going to the net more aggressively this year, that would at least partly explain his higher rate of winners.


BREAK POINTS

Last year Nadal won 4 of 11 break points, Fed 3 of 8.
This year Nadal won 4 of 13 break points, Fed 1 of 13.

The numbers could suggest that Federer played a better match last year -- particularly if you don't give Nadal sufficient credit for saving the break points this year; I'm inclined to give him the credit.

And if you divide the break point chances by set, the numbers actually favor Federer in the last half of the match.

Federer's break point chances by set:
0-3
1-3
0-6
0-0
0-1 (his sole chance in the fifth was at 3-4)

Nadal's break point chances by set:

1-1
2-3
0-3
0-0
1-6 (Nadal had two chances at 5-all and four at 7-all)

I didn't think Federer was fired up until the third set. He was 1 for 12 on break points by the time they got to 3-all in that set (he had just failed to convert 4 break points in Nadal's last service game). Nadal pinned him at love-40 in the next game but couldn't convert, leaving Rafa at 3 for 7 in break point opportunities. Each player then held once before the rain delay, and Federer came back a better player.

In sum, after that rain delay Federer was 0 for 1 in break point chances, Nadal 1 for 6.

Break points are also not the only measure of key points. Conversion of match points is another measure, and in that stat Nadal needed 4 before he could convert.

Play in tiebreaks is another measure, and Federer took both tiebreaks (with 4 aces in the first one, out of only 6 points that he served).

It's true that Federer can be faulted in the first two and half sets for not converting more break points (and for failing to consolidate his only break). On the other hand, Nadal double-faulted at 5-2 in the fourth-set tiebreak and got tight on the backhand on the next point. And by my own judgment Nadal made two unforced errors when he had Federer at love-40 in the third set.

So in terms of playing well on important points, both players had their problems in '08 -- though not many after the first rain delay. In that last half of the match it was Nadal, arguably, who had the most serious trouble on important points: the 5-2 points in the tiebreak on his serve, break points in the fifth, match points. But Nadal also came through with the only break of serve, which is why he won.

In terms of playing well overall for five sets, the numbers suggest that they played more aggressively this year (with payoff), than last year.


SERVICE PERCENTAGES

Nadal's percentage went up by two points in 2008, to 73. He served more aces (6 to 1) and by common agreement has improved his serve.

Federer's percentage went down 5 points, to 66%. He served 25 aces compared to 24 last year, not a big improvement considering this year’s match was so much longer.

Excellent breakdown!
 
Can you help me out with a point on the stats. If you took the Verdasco -- Ancic match, another match that went tight and long into the fifth, and compared the stats from that match with the stats from the final, what conclusions would you be able to draw about the respective quality of the tennis in the two matches?
Such a comparison would be very tricky because the players are different -- and lower-ranked, lesser players. They might have had a great quality match statistically in the sense of winners and errors (someone could even prefer it over the final, on those terms), but if they weren't hitting the ball with same skill, then it's apples and oranges.

So my goal here was limited: to compare the same two players, one year apart, on the same surface, same round, same tournament.
 
If there's any confusion about who had the winners and who had the errors, I have not seen the figures in the New York Times chart repeated elsewhere, but I have seen the figures I used (Federer with more winners and unforced errors) repeated elsewhere, including the AP.

It's very common in this rivalry for Federer to have more winners and ue's than Nadal.

If Nadal had led by 29 winners, and also had 25 fewer unforced errors, it would not have been a close match. It would have been a rout.
 
Forced errors

Someone asked in another thread why forced errors are not charted in official stats.

I don't know, but they can be calculated. We know the total points won by each player, so you subtract their winners/aces and unforced errors/double faults. The remaining numbers are the forced errors.

Incidentally, I can't confirm that the stats we have for Federer and Nadal's unforced errors include double-faults. Leo Levin once gave an interview in which he said that a double-fault is an unforced error by definition.

So, going on the presumption that Wimbledon included double-faults in its figures for unforced errors:

2008 -- Nadal was forced into 88 errors, Federer into 97.
2007 -- Nadal was forced into 76 errors, Federer into 74.
 
Incidentally, I can't confirm that the stats we have for Federer and Nadal's unforced errors include double-faults. Leo Levin once gave an interview in which he said that a double-fault is an unforced error by definition.

In the 4th set of the NBC broadcast, they broke down Fed's UE's by stroke & said he had one 'service unforced error.' At that point he only had one double, so I guess it was counted as an UE.

2008 -- Nadal was forced into 88 errors, Federer into 97.
2007 -- Nadal was forced into 76 errors, Federer into 74.

If I understand what you mean, this is a bit surprising. Wouldn't the player who hit more winners generally 'force' more errors out of his opponent? Especially since Fed came to net more.
 
In the 4th set of the NBC broadcast, they broke down Fed's UE's by stroke & said he had one 'service unforced error.' At that point he only had one double, so I guess it was counted as an UE.
Have to look at that graphic, I must have missed it on Sunday. Does seem to answer the question.

If I understand what you mean, this is a bit surprising. Wouldn't the player who hit more winners generally 'force' more errors out of his opponent? Especially since Fed came to net more.
I found it also surprising. That may be the extent to which Nadal has simply grown powerful from the backcourt -- in pace and spin.

But it's not possible to say more without knowing how these statisticians work. I mean, did they actually count the forced errors, or did they just mark down the ue's and pay no more attention to the remainder of the points? I'd like to think they did mark down every point as an error or winner of some kind, but if true, then why don't we see forced errors published?
 
Can I just say that as one of the people who doesn't think that the tennis this year was as good as lat year, I am not saying that it was other than very good tennis between the two outstanding players of the last few years. The point is just that it wasn't as good as last year. It was however much more dramatic.

But it wasn't dramatic simply because it went 5 sets or because of the rain. Federer fought of several match points. He was down 2-5 in the 4th set tiebreaker. Sure there were errors but there were errors from Federer because he felt he needed to hit more winners outright. I also think there were more amazing points. I don't judge a match by a stat sheet. Great players draw errors from their opponents. That's the kind of pressure they put on them.

I think the tennis was better this year. Both players had their lackluster moments but those were greatly outshined by the glorious ones, which were more plentiful.
 
The thing is, not all errors are created equal. This is what I mean: You can make an UE while going for a difficult winner from the baseline, or you can make an unforced error an a normal, neutral rally shot. Both would count as UEs in the boxscore, and a player who made 50 UEs all while hitting aggressive shots would seem to be playing on the same level as one who makes 50 "silly" UEs.

Same goes for forced errors. a good deal of Nadal's FE came when Federer hit a cc I/O forehand which Nadal could just get a racket on. Those fhs were clearly point-enders, and didn't qualify as winners simply because Nadal managed to reach them. There are also forced errors which happen when in a rally and your opponent hits an aggressive shot which forces you to run a little. It is still a makeable shot, but it can be a FE, because your opponent is "controlling the rally". This is especially the case in Wimbledon, where they are stingy in assigning UEs.

I think there should be four different catergories of errors, but the would be hard to keep track of and classify.
 
Such a comparison would be very tricky because the players are different -- and lower-ranked, lesser players. They might have had a great quality match statistically in the sense of winners and errors (someone could even prefer it over the final, on those terms), but if they weren't hitting the ball with same skill, then it's apples and oranges.

So my goal here was limited: to compare the same two players, one year apart, on the same surface, same round, same tournament.

I guess that what I am wondering is whether that same proposition cannot be applied to differences in quality between two matches between Federer and Nadal.

cc
 
I guess that what I am wondering is whether that same proposition cannot be applied to differences in quality between two matches between Federer and Nadal.

cc
Are you asking whether a match can look better statistically but still be lower quality in the way it was actually played?

I'm not sure how that could come about. It was mentioned above that there are different kinds of unforced errors, and that's true. If Federer plays two matches and makes 50 ue's in each, but in one he's not trying for anything while in the other he's making the errors because he's going for broke, there's a difference in quality there, at least theoretically.

But if you want to know how the errors were made, look at the winners. Was he hanging back or going for them? His rate of winners went up this year; he was going for them.

That was my own impression when watching on Sunday, starting around the fourth set. A lot of Federer's errors struck me as "good" errors, in the sense that they came about because he was going for winners or forcing shots.

When I think of last year's final, I remember a match that right from the first point was at a high level, and stayed there for five sets. This year was a more complex match, more contrasts -- especially comparing the first half of the match with the last half. During the first two sets I was thinking, "Well, you can't expect them to catch lightning twice in two years. Last year was probably unrepeatable." But then they caught fire, and I wasn't thinking like that during the fourth set and the early part of the fifth, when there were no break points.

Most of the break points in the match were in the first half (19 of 26 came before the rain delay at 5-4 in the third).

So this match was more up-and-down, but statistically it still comes out better as a whole (ETA: it comes out better in terms of the differentials, though the high differentials in 2008 have to be partly due to the length of the match).

I think if someone values a match that stays at an unchanging, high quality for five sets, then probably last year's final is preferable.

Sorry a bit long-winded, but is this what you had in mind, or something else?
 
Last edited:
If I understand what you mean, this is a bit surprising. Wouldn't the player who hit more winners generally 'force' more errors out of his opponent? Especially since Fed came to net more.
Maybe not!

I think this is part of Nadal's genius. He hits more forcing, heavy balls, without taking so much risk as a clean winner would take. It also drags you around the court wearing you out and intimidates you during such a match. It is frustrating when someone pushes you into lots of errors and it causes you to take more chances in an attempt to keep some control of the point.
 
I seemed to enjoy the 2007 Wimbledon slightly more, because Nadal wasn't expected to win, yet he was on target to win for much of it and appeared the better player.

Whereas 2008 I truly expected Nadal to win, not just win but win comfortably and he almost did in straight sets but then after the rain delay I felt like Nadal was robbed of that comfortable win and then when they were in the 5th set it seemed like Nadal was going to lose and then it was great when he won but it felt like he was just doing receiving what was rightfully his rather than shocking the world. Whereas in 2007 he almost shocked the world because not many people expected him to win.

That's the best thing to witness in sports is when someone shocks the world like when ALI beat Liston for the first time when many didn't expect it, but now Nadal is expected to beat Federer. So winning Wimbledon is like reaching par for the course.

Although there is the Australian Open and US Open to look forward to, it might shock some people when Nadal wins there.
 
Look at how nobody is making excuses for Federer
acigar.gif
 
Back
Top