Underhand
Legend
Actually it's a Morse code telegraph key, that's why he fingers his butt before serves. If the opponent has breakpoint he sends a · · · — — — · · · to Uncle Toni.
Nadal Fined $2,000 for Receiving Coaching
- Thread starter InvisibleSoul
- Start date
Actually it's a Morse code telegraph key, that's why he fingers his butt before serves. If the opponent has breakpoint he sends a · · · — — — · · · to Uncle Toni.
namelessone
Legend
Honestly, I would get rid of the players box.
My problem is with the hypocrisy of it all. Ok, Nadal is guilty of coaching apparently. Do you enforce it on the other 80% of the players that get coached at one point or another or do you let it slip? And again, how did the ump know he was getting coached? Was his box too noisy? And if so, how do they know that they were saying something towards Nadal? What if Tony was speaking Mallorqui, how would Mourier pick up on that? If noisy boxes are all it takes, one needs only mention murray, djoker(when his parents were there) or verdasco's boxes to name but a few on the ATP tour. On the WTA it is worse, I'm just gonna say henin and get it over with.
If you decide that this rule suddenly exits, enforce it on all players. Though this may mean that two thirds would get a coaching warning at least once every match.
I would really, really, really like to know the basis for Mourier's decision.
TourTenor
Professional
Honestly, I would get rid of the players box.
My problem is with the hypocrisy of it all. Ok, Nadal is guilty of coaching apparently. Do you enforce it on the other 80% of the players that get coached at one point or another or do you let it slip? And again, how did the ump know he was getting coached? Was his box too noisy? And if so, how do they know that they were saying something towards Nadal? What if Tony was speaking Mallorqui, how would Mourier pick up on that? If noisy boxes are all it takes, one needs only mention murray, djoker(when his parents were there) or verdasco's boxes to name but a few on the ATP tour. On the WTA it is worse, I'm just gonna say henin and get it over with.
If you decide that this rule suddenly exits, enforce it on all players. Though this may mean that two thirds would get a coaching warning at least once every match.
I would really, really, really like to know the basis for Mourier's decision.
Nameless,
You are getting to the points i was wondering about. Thanks for the discussion.
Sureshs, Underhand,
I like the butt-controlled transponder concept! Perhaps, like an I-Phone app, Rafa uses various types of flatuation to agree or "shake-off" Uncle Tony's signals. That way there is no visual sign that he is responding to his coach!
Drakulie,
I was all ready thinking about the analogy to the baseball coach. Aren't those signals very obvious? Maybe, Uncle Tony has mastered some more subtle version of the third base coach running through his hand signals? And, I wonder what the umpire saw that caused the warning and the fine?
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I installed it myself
TourTenor
Professional
Finally, we are getting to the bottom of this issue!
Yeah, all that ink from the $100 bills really itch. :lol:
M
meg0529
Guest
I don't know if when he said "sometimes Toni talks too much" it meant that he coaches him! Toni is a chatty guy, a lot of the time when the camera points at him he is talking to whoever is next to him.
In any case, he paid the fine, and I don't think it's the amount that matters, it's the fact that the #1 guy in tennis was accused and fined for cheating. It's one of the burdens of being #1 playing good tennis isn't enough, you have to set an example for others. That being said I really don't think he cheated. Petzschner hinted that the MTO was strategic, but he clearly started to look tired right from the end of the 3rd set. It could easily have been Rafa thinking, "this is gonna be a long match, better get those knees checked out!" His career depends on his physical health, I'd be paranoid too!
I read someone comparing him to John McEnroe, so not fair! John was a maniac at times!! Rafa is usually very composed and respectful, him get angry like that is VERY rare. Some people said they lost all respect for him, I think they were just looking for an excuse. Fed cursed the umpire out, said he was sorry and nobody treated him any different for it. I don't understand why Rafa is the devil all of a sudden. There is no proof anyway.
Bud
Bionic Poster
Awesome first post!
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
Sometimes the 802.11g signals get scrambled, which is why he scratches so often.
(We've notified Microsoft, a service pack will be issued in a few years).
Mr_Shiver
Semi-Pro
I can't wait until Rafa retires and writes his autobiography. The origin of the pick, how he's known how to speak perfect English since childhood, steroids, how he really hurt his knees and his true feelings about Federer ("i owned that chump and enjoyed every second of it"). It is going to be great.
BreakPoint
Bionic Poster
Well, now we know why he has to pick his butt in between every point.
The truth revealed! :lol:
genius24
Semi-Pro
what kind of a joke fine is that?!?!? by fining nadal only $2000, they are basically encouraging exactly what they are fining him for.
namelessone
Legend
From what I've heard the fine for coaching is actually 5000 bucks so giving 2000 kinda says it all about how grave the ATP thought this incident to be.
I still wish they would give the basis for Mourier's decision. You can't just say "well I thought they were communicating(either audibly or through hand signs)". Did he hear tactical cues from Nadal's box? Did Nadal talk back to his uncle on changeovers? Did he see Nadal responding to signals from his box? What was it?
Give us something to work with. If communicating(which is illegal) is making noise from the players box then coaching is about as common on a tennis court as hitting a yellow ball with a racket. How do you prove communication between a player and his box? Apparently Tony has been coaching Nadal forever now but no one, not even bollettieri, knows how he does or has ever caught it on tape.
Plus Mourier is a funny guy. This is the same ump that suggested to Davy back in 07' that he "try harder on his serve" when his first serve percentage was down and he started double faulting, implying that davydenko was throwing the match. Of course davy was mad at the situation, as he was accused by the ump that he was tanking the match not to mention the fact that his tone was pretty insulting.
This is from a tennis x article:
"Baghdatis broke and during the changeover, chair umpire Cedric Mourier asked Davydenko if everything was alright. The Frenchman actually went so far, as to say, “if you serve like me, you’ll put it in the box.” Mourier really crossed the line though, when during the next change of ends he told Davydenko about his service: “Just hit it, you’re still the same player.” Is this the ATP’s equivalent to the WTA’s on-court coaching experiment, have the officials coach the players?"
Yes that is true. There should always be a small margin of error however considering the intensity of the ocassion. These people are focused from the begininn-g to the end of the season. If they go by the wayside occassionaly then they are only human. If we want players to give their all then you cannot expect robots. Even the guy who spat out at those awful fans the other day had a problem which should have been discussed. The fans should have been removed long before he did that
Yes I wish Mohamed had been there a the umpire
namelessone
Legend
Another bit on Mourier from a yahoo article:
"It was gettin' dark, but not too dark to see in London for Andy Murray.
The top British player was in the midst of a comeback from 3-0 down in the third set of his third-round match at Queen's Club when his opponent, American Mardy Fish, asked the chair umpire to suspend the match on account of darkness. Without so much as a glance in Murray's direction, Cedric Mourier, who worked the French Open final on Sunday, agreed with Fish and called the match. Fish immediately bolted for the locker room, while Murray vehemently argued his case on the court:
"The only reason he didn't want to play is because it's three-all. Ten minutes ago, when it was 3-1, he was quite happy. I have never known this [a player not to be consulted] to happen before. It's ridiculous."
It was ridiculous. There was plenty of light to continue. Fish saw an opportunity to stanch his bleeding and the umpire was only too happy to oblige. It was a fairly spineless move by both. At the very least, Murray should have been consulted and there should have been a declaration that there would be, say, one more service game."
And before anyone decides to post, no, I don't think Mourier has anything against Nadal. But he does make some funny calls to be sure.
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
it's part of the Great Conspiracy agenda against Saint Rafa! Ramos, Bernardes, hell... they all are against him! why? because he is Saint Rafa...
ps: or that he bends and crosses the rules... maybe... perhaps... who knows...
CyBorg
Legend
Bud
Bionic Poster
Yeah, well they better start fining every other player who looks to their box for challenge advice as well.
Bud
Bionic Poster
He didn't do it in the first place. Maurier has not told us exactly what the violation was or what was said between coaching box and the player.
In other words, it was a bogus unsubstantiated warning/fine.
namelessone
Legend
My issue with this situation is that nothing will happen after this. The hypocrisy will continue. The nr.1 of the world has been fine for coaching. Ok, fine, no one dies from this. But how did Mourier figure out he was being coached? And if so, and this is the most important question of them all, will the umps warn and the ATP fine the other 80-90% of players that receive some form of coaching during a match? Or is it that you can coach during a match(even though it is illegal), just don't coach too much? As many others have mentioned before me, there are many other players with way noisier boxes and there are players that are famous for communicating with their box but they almost never receive even a warning, let alone a violation.
It's kinda like the time-wasting thing. Even though the mark is 25 seconds, umps will allow players to go to 35-40, but pass 40 and you get a warning. Which is fine, but the point is that you are not supposed to go over 25 in the first place. It is like this with coaching as well. This is another half assed ATP measure which could be solved in a heartbeat with either one of these two measures:
1)allow coaching(maybe once per set)
2)don't allow coaches in the player box.
Problem solved. I hate this subjective, it is up to the umpire bit. Kinda like the disallowed England goal, we all saw it was a goal, officially it never happened. We need an objective way of determining who is breaking the rules, especially this hard to interpret rules like coaching. As other have said, if it was a more permissive ump, Nadal would not have been warned and Tony could have mouthed off at the next matches as well.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
And why is the Chair answerable to *YOU*?
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
You forgot Pascal Maria.
namelessone
Legend
What's with the I after "coached"?
He does not HAVE to answer to me, I would liked to have seen the basis for his decision mostly because I am really,really,really curios to see how Nadal and Tony are communicating, since not even Bollettieri has an idea of how they do it. How does one give audio cues that only Nadal can hear but no one else around him(including Mourier), not to mention the fact that he is able to drown the surrounding sound to make only his voice heard. Nadal says Tony talks too much during matches and Petzchner says that a player can't make anything out from the ground because of the ambient noise. So how can Nadal hear his uncle?
namelessone
Legend
You forgot Pascal Maria.
Not to mention the fact that Bernardes umpired Nadal's first ATP match. Oh the betrayal
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
The I got left off .Sorry.
Anyway,how often have we seen Chair umpires explaining their decisions to the public?
Oh and the players box is actually pretty close to the players.It's pretty much got the best view.And if you're playing on the side your camp is sitting it can't be tough to communicate with them.Why else do you think on-court coaching exists at all?
namelessone
Legend
Yes, but you are in that area for a short amount of time and most of the time you are serving,receiving or running after balls. Plus audio cues are easy to hear BY EVERYONE ELSE as well, including the umpire, unless somehow things are whispered to you so to speak. The umpire is only a couple of feet away from the player so it is likely that he/she hears what you are saying as well. You could easily have guys in the stands coaching you no matter you are on court and they can't be blamed as they are not part of your box. The only time you would have time to focus on your box would be between points, maybe as you are getting the towel but in most situations the crowd is still roaring after the last point so it would be pretty tough to make out what your coach is saying. Plus I doubt that you can communicate major tactical changes in the space of a couple of seconds.
Maybe I was off base requiring a explanation but I hate the vagueness of the coaching rule that just says "don't communicate" but leaves everything up to the umpire. An objective system is required IMO. You can't have one guy communicate and not get warned and let another guy do as he wished because communicating may mean different things to different umpires. Even in the time to serve rule, which has an objective marker(the 25 sec mark), is interpreted differently by most umpires. Some let players routinely go to 40 secs if not more, others let you have it at 35 or so.
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mandy01
G.O.A.T.
I'm sure everyone can't hear them but the umpire and the opponent-yes,there's definitely a good chance they can and maybe Cedric did hear something we didn't.
Tennis_Crazed
Semi-Pro
hmmm....not sure how i feel about this one.. what was actually said? how do they know it was coaching?
namelessone
Legend
So in this case Cedric did hear something even though PP(who thought Nadal was clever with his MTO so he was pretty honest in his interview from his POV) said that is it very hard to make anything out and that it is almost impossible to get any messages through from stands to player. But maybe that is just his opinion and not the truth.
namelessone
Legend
I heard that the standard fine for coaching is 5000$.
mandy01
G.O.A.T.
Maybe Petz wasn't paying attention.I guess a lot also depends on the positioning of the box(but you can be sure that in most cases it's got the best view
)Tennis_Monk
Hall of Fame
Well it is so obvious..everyone can see
Tony (nadal) has shouted at Rafa 'Vamos'. Rafa communicated back via his fist pump.
Tony then put the Shades on and Rafa immediately hit a topspin looper into opponents backhand.
Tony drank a sip of water from his bottle. Almost like magic, Nadal hit a Down the line backhand passing shot. The second time he took a sip, Nadal hit a forehand DTL passing shot.
Tony scratched his face and Rafa hit a serve into opponents body. Next time Tony scratched his face and Rafa hit a DTL ace.
need more evidence?
Yes I noticed this also. I do think he needs confronting regarding his judgement. Mohamend would have consulted them both and with humour
D
Deleted member 21996
Guest
Not to mention the fact that Bernardes umpired Nadal's first ATP match. Oh the betrayal
shame on him. Saint Rafa hatin´ bigot with no morality and a member of the S.P.E.C.T.R.E.
M
meg0529
Guest
thanks!
TheLoneWolf
Banned
Based on what I saw on TV, this fine is a bunch of bull. Cedric Mourier (is that the guy's name?) just had it for Nadal.
I don't know, perhaps Rafa and uncle Toni have a sign language, but I didn't see any gestures from uncle Toni that looked like coaching to me. If you want to see coaching, look at Soderling's camp today. Encouragement and tactical coaching are two very different things. If they are going to get silly like that, they might as well forbid coaches from attending matches.
I don't know, perhaps Rafa and uncle Toni have a sign language, but I didn't see any gestures from uncle Toni that looked like coaching to me. If you want to see coaching, look at Soderling's camp today. Encouragement and tactical coaching are two very different things. If they are going to get silly like that, they might as well forbid coaches from attending matches.
D
Deleted member 3771
Guest
Newcombe blasted the Wimbledon officials for accusing Rafa of being coached, he said it was ridiculous and that they're over watching him, he said saying "comeon" to Rafa isn't coaching. I think we all agree. The Refs are trying their best to spoil the Rafa party.
reversef
Hall of Fame
Mourier's decision was as legitimate as P. Maria's decision yesterday.:evil: But there is something positive in those unfair decisions: Rafa gets angry and starts playing better. His reaction yesterday was really spectacular. I was not confident at all, I thought he would lose the match. After Maria's unfair call, I saw how Rafa hold his service game. From then, I knew that he would win. Thank you Pascal Maria: your stupidity helped Nadal. :twisted:
LOL. That reminds me of the 1978 chess world championship.
http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/78kk$$01.htm
World Chess Championship
1978 Karpov - Korchnoi Title Match
Yogurt, Parapsychology, Ananda Marga, ...
The events surrounding the 1978 match were among the most bizarre that a world championship match has ever seen. Here we try to recall those events as historic in their own right. We must not forget that all of this was a backdrop for a chess match. The games of this match are described on a separate page.
We are fortunate that many accounts, sometimes conflicting, have been written by the match principals -- Karpov & Baturinsky, Edmondson, Keene, and Korchnoi -- as well as by close observers of the international chess scene like Larsen and Hartston. The events described here are taken from these sources.
Sunglasses
Korchnoi wore mirror sunglasses for the first game and continued to wear them during some of the following games. During the 1974 match he had been bothered by Karpov's habit of staring at his opponent, so in Baguio he wore the glasses to hide his eyes. Karpov wrote, '[The sunglasses] were like two mirrors, and whenever Korchnoi raised his head the light from the numerous lamps on the stage was reflected into my eyes', and complained to Schmid about the glasses.
Before game 9, the arbiters tried wearing sunglasses and taking positions at the board as though they were playing a game. They pronounced the glasses 'not disturbing'. Karpov felt that he was not being taken seriously by Schmid and questioned his objectivity.
Chairs
Chairs also contributed to the match tension. In prematch discussions Korchnoi declared his intention to bring his own chair, a dark green Stollgiroflex, and stipulated that the chairs 'may not turn but may move only to the front and back' Karpov's chair was furnished by the organizers. He needed a small cushion to raise him to Korchnoi's level.
Karpov requested that Korchnoi's chair be examined for 'extraneous objects or prohibited devices'. A few days before the first game, the chair was dismantled, X-rayed at Baguio General Hospital, and cleared.
During game 14 Korchnoi complained to Schmid that Karpov was swiveling in his chair. Karpov swiveled again during game 15 and Korchnoi complained. Schmid talked to Karpov about it, but Karpov continued -- 'I'll stop swiveling if he takes off his glasses'. The jury decided the next day that 'swiveling of one's chair or standing behind it are not to be allowed'. Karpov stopped swiveling during Korchnoi's move for game 16.
Yogurt
On the 25th move of game 2, a waiter delivered a tray with a glass of violet colored yogurt to Karpov. After the game Leeuwerik sent a letter to Schmid protesting the yogurt. 'It is clear that a cunningly arranged distribution of edible items to one player during the game, emanating from one delegation or the other, could convey a kind of code message'. Although the letter was almost certainly tongue-in-cheek, Baturinsky took it seriously and suggested that the binoculars Leeuwerik used during the game might also convey a coded message to Korchnoi.
By the time a waiter delivered another tray holding yogurt to Karpov on the 17th move of game 3, the first incident had been blown out of proportion by both Baturinsky and Leeuwerik. A few days later the jury met and agreed that Karpov could receive a beverage at a fixed time and that Schmid would be notified before the game if it would not be a violet colored yogurt.
Zukhar
Who was Vladimir P. Zukhar? Edmondson described him as a 'Psychological Consultant. A psycho-neurologist and director of the Central Laboratory for Psychology in Moscow's School of Medecine'.
Karpov wrote in his book about the match:-
So why in fact did I need -- and I certainly did need -- Dr. Zukhar?
Let us go back a few years... The Final Candidates Match for the World Championship has just begun. Each time when I turn to face the nearest box in the theater, I involuntarily notice among Korchnoi's trainers a man who tries to catch my eye. I ask who this man is, and it transpires that he works with Korchnoi. The thought did not occur to me that hypnotism was being used against me, and I did not demand that this person should sit further away, but I decided to engage my own psychologist. And that is how I came to make the acquaintance of Vladimir Zukhar... (p.29)
[...]
Zukhar was admitted to the Philippines as a member of Karpov's delegation. After game 1, when the first three rows of the spectator area reserved for Marcos and other VIPs were empty, the spectators started to move forward. Zukhar and some other Soviets seated themselves in the second row. Edmondson wrote of game 4:-
Korchnoi headed immediately for his easy chair after making [his 14th move], obviously expecting that Karpov would consider his reply at length. And Karpov did just that; he thought for 39 minutes, during most of which the challenger relaxed and enjoyed his tea and chocolate. [...] In the second row left were ensconced Valery Krylov, Karpov's physical trainer, and a Dr. Zukhar -- the second doctor (exact duties unspecified) in Karpov's entourage. Dr. Zukhar fixed an unbroken stare upon Korchnoi during the entire 39 minutes which Karpov devoted to [his 15th] move; Korchnoi seemed not to notice. (p.31)
Zukhar took the same seat in the first session of game 5. When he moved to the first row for the second session, Leeuwerik's daughter sat on his right and stared directly at him. Her boyfriend took the seat to Zukhar's left.
Game 6 was played between the second and third sessions of game 5. Before the game Leeuwerik complained to Campomanes that Zukhar was a parapsychologist assigned to 'confuse Korchnoi's thinking', thereby increasing his problems in time trouble. When Leeuwerik asked Campomanes to ensure that no one sat in the front row, Campomanes forwarded the request to Baturinsky, who agreed. Zukhar sat in the second row. During the third session of game 5, he sat in the third row, sandwiched by his own delegation, and stared at Korchnoi. Leeuwerik sat directly behind him.
At the start of game 7, Zukhar was again in the second row. A few minutes into the game Korchnoi complained to Schmid, suggesting that the game should be played elsewhere. [...]
Before the second session of game 7, Campomanes issued a memo which attempted to place all 'accredited persons' in the last three rows. Baturinsky objected on the grounds that the second session was still to be played, and Campomanes agreed to start with game 8. Later that day Karpov addressed a letter to the jury, where he objected to Campomanes memo on the grounds that it changed prematch agreements. Keene sent a letter to Campomanes complaining about Zukhar.
On the morning when game 8 was to be played, the jury met and agreed that Korchnoi had been disturbed by Zukhar. If it happened again, Schmid would have the authority either to eject the spectator from the playing area or to move the game to another room. Zukhar sat in the fifth row for game 8 and there were no problems.
[...]
Before game 9 Korchnoi asked to use the alternate playing room. Zukhar was sitting in row 5, but moved to row 7, and the game continued in public.
Baturinsky held an impromptu press conference to reveal the content of a letter to Campomanes. His point was that Zukhar performed an important function and a right to watch Karpov's play closely. He also denied that Zukhar was an official member of Karpov's delegation.
Immediately afterwards, Leeuwerik held a press conference. 'We do not ask that Zukhar be ejected from the hall, only that he sit at the rear. If this is not done, then the game must be moved to the alternate playing room'.
[and so it goes on and on]
[...]
http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/78kk$$01.htm
TheLoneWolf
Banned
That is simply fascinating, thanks!
LoneWolf and Sentinel, don´t miss the part about the two members of the Ananda Marga sect, who had been convicted of attempted murder for stabbing an Indian diplomat at the Manila embassy, and were introduced into the playing hall by the Korchnoi team wearing colorful robes. Their mission was to help Korchnoi´s mind against the hyptnotic or confoundng effects of Zukhar´s presence, through lessons in transcendental meditation and yoga. They also created quite a controversy.
Yes, tennis players have a lot to learn from these mind destabilization techniques. Clearly, the techniques they currently use are child play and woefully inadequate by comparison.
Yes, tennis players have a lot to learn from these mind destabilization techniques. Clearly, the techniques they currently use are child play and woefully inadequate by comparison.
Sentinel
Bionic Poster
I missed that part. where was it ? on the same page ?
okay i found it. Teaching a chess player TM in 4 days ! Hopefully things are clean and gentlemanly nowadays. I can't imagine V Anand resorting to such nonsense.
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