Nadal is ahead of Federer in Slams adjusted by difficulty

Lew II

Hall of Fame
abmk to a Djokovic fan -- Hitman -- has watched tennis since the 1990s.
abmk to an absolutely clueless Djokovic fan -- Lew -- hasn't watched much tennis at all.

is that enough or do you want to be owned more :D
Let me correct:

To a Djokovic fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2011

to a Nadal fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2008
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Let me correct:

To a Djokovic fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2011

to a Nadal fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2008
I agree with Hitman on many things and disagree with him on quite a few as well.
So you fail again.
Stop self-goaling yourself by trying to "outsmart" me. You'll just get owned.
Instead watch some tennis to get some clue about it.
 
I never said I'm not a millenial. But continue to delude youself.
But its obvious you are nothing more than a clueless (about tennis) teenager who didn't watch much tennis at all before 2008 and is high on his set of delusions.

As far as the last statement goes, more delusionals. Federer is the greater all around player without a question -- to anyone who has an inkling about tennis.
Nadal has 1 slam at the AO, just as Federer has 1 FO. Its dishonest BS to club AO and USO to make it look it hype up "Nadal has multiple majors on all surfaces" or "is the better all-around player".
Oh and also dishonest to ignore that he is crappy indoor for an ATG. Or does that fact make you go into a river of denial ?:)
Nadal had to face 2 all time greats on indoor hardcourt players during his career. It's not like he is losing to every mug indoors. Also, he skips WTF like 2 times out of 3 anyway in the last decade.
 

EasyGoing

Professional
Let me correct:

To a Djokovic fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2011

to a Nadal fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2008
You know, to be fair to Abmk, there are literally dozens of posters here who branded you clueless about just about everything tennis related. With very good reason.

You, a self-proclaimed statistician, among many other stupid things, once claimed that percentage of points won is a useless metric (!) - even though almost all stats are derived from it. And upon this conclusion you insisted Stakhovsky had a better point winning percentage than a multiple slam winner and a longtime Eurosport commentator Mats Wilander (!!!).

If that is not the very definition of absolutely zero clue about tennis (in general, not just before a specific year), than what is?
 

ABCD

Hall of Fame
Let me correct:

To a Djokovic fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2011

to a Nadal fan that disagrees with you

You have absolutely zero clue about tennis before 2008
Keep up good work and don't pay attention to insults. People vent their anger when you tell them the truth.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal had to face 2 all time greats on indoor hardcourt players during his career. It's not like he is losing to every mug indoors. Also, he skips WTF like 2 times out of 3 anyway in the last decade.
62-31 record on indoor HC -- 66.67%
Only 1 title on indoor HC. He has lost to quite a few "mugs" indoors.
Yeah, that's crappy for an ATG.
In the 90s, Nadal would've faced Sampras/Becker indoors
in the 80s, Mcenroe/Lendl/becker
etc. etc.
 

Pantera

Banned
ha ha ha ha. said the clueless guy who doesn't have an inkling of tennis before 2008 and probably assumes others don't know much either.

1. Federer on grass from 2003-2007 :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RogerFederer&f=A2007qq,2006qq,2005qq,2004qq,2003qqB2
Break% = 29.6, Return points won% = 40.9%

Djokovic on grass from 2011-2015 :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=NovakDjokovic&f=A2015qq,2014qq,2013qq,2012qq,2011qqB2
break% = 27%, Return points won% = 39.9%

2. Federer on grass for career :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RogerFederer&f=ACareerqqB2
Break% = 23.9%, Return points won% = 38.3%

Nadal on grass for career :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RafaelNadal&f=ACareerqqB2
Break% = 22.7%, Return points won% = 37.1%

3. Federer on HC vs top 20 :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RogerFederer&f=ACareerqqB0ITop_20qq
Break% = 24.5%, Return points won% = 38.5%

Nadal on HC vs top 20 :
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-bin/player.cgi?p=RafaelNadal&f=ACareerqqB0ITop_20qq
Break% = 22.3%, Return points won% = 37.3%



no, he doesn't. He has 1 AO -- same as Federer at the FO.
Also sucks indoors for an ATG. 0 YECs.



again, more and more delusions from a delusional poster.
FO 2009 and AO 2010 were not serve friendly.


Hilarious cover of Nadal being clearly less varied than Federer or even Djokovic by trying to say Federer is one-dimensional. But maybe you are that deluded/clueless.
dude ,Nadal peak v peak is clearly more vaired, he has won all 4 Majors, Federer merely AO and Wimbledon. Yes Federer has done well at 250 level, but I do not watch 250 events as they are not legacy creators.

Sorry this is a non debatable issue that you will always lose. Nadal...Multiple Majors Multiple Slams. That is botton line. Federer had his chance at FO, got utterly hammered in semi final.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
62-31 record on indoor HC -- 66.67%
Only 1 title on indoor HC. He has lost to quite a few "mugs" indoors.
Yeah, that's crappy for an ATG.
In the 90s, Nadal would've faced Sampras/Becker indoors
in the 80s, Mcenroe/Lendl/becker
etc. etc.
While I agree with about Nadal indoors being relatively weak and poorer for a ATG remember his conditioning and bad injury luck esp late season due to the wear and tear on his body all season hasn’t helped that record at all. When he was in better shape he often had some good runs. He actually won his lone indoor title in Madrid 2005 before he got another serious late season injury which nearly ended his career.
 

Pantera

Banned
62-31 record on indoor HC -- 66.67%
Only 1 title on indoor HC. He has lost to quite a few "mugs" indoors.
Yeah, that's crappy for an ATG.
In the 90s, Nadal would've faced Sampras/Becker indoors
in the 80s, Mcenroe/Lendl/becker
etc. etc.
There are no hard courts indoors...if you are not aware of this fact then I can only assume you have never played the game. There is a reason why indoor courts bounce so low. Because they are not hard courts.
 

Pantera

Banned
While I agree with about Nadal indoors being relatively weak and poorer for a ATG remember his conditioning and bad injury luck esp late season due to the wear and tear on his body all season hasn’t helped that record at all. When he was in better shape he often had some good runs. He actually won his lone indoor title in Madrid 2005 before he got another serious late season injury which nearly ended his career.
Indoor tennis is irrelevant anyway and Federer is an indoor specialist who has had the odd good result outdoors in the GOATrace era.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
Indoor tennis is irrelevant anyway and Federer is an indoor specialist who has had the odd good result outdoors in the GOATrace era.
Dude just chill. No tennis surface/environment is irrelevant. Federer is a great outdoor player just not as good as Nadal maybe.
 

TJfederer16

Hall of Fame
Funny how this happens after every French open. Well the dust has nearly settled again until the VB have to scurry back into their holes for another year only to reappear on May 25 - June 8th 2020 to desperately state their man's claim to the throne again after yet another irrelevant clay title.
 

Pantera

Banned
Dude just chill. No tennis surface/environment is irrelevant. Federer is a great outdoor player just not as good as Nadal maybe.
Indoor tennis has never floated my boat, for me tennis season has always ended when US open ends. Not interested after that. It is NFL time.
 

Pantera

Banned
Funny how this happens after every French open. Well the dust has nearly settled again until the VB have to scurry back into their holes for another year only to reappear on May 25 - June 8th 2020 to desperately state their man's claim to the throne again after yet another irrelevant clay title.
And US Open...Nadal always wins US Open when fit as well. However FO and USO are 2 of the biggest events in tennis...
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
There are no hard courts indoors...if you are not aware of this fact then I can only assume you have never played the game. There is a reason why indoor courts bounce so low. Because they are not hard courts.
Yes, there are HCs which are indoors. Bounce of a HC can be varied quite a bit.
You have absolutely zero clue. Stop embarassing yourself
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
dude ,Nadal peak v peak is clearly more vaired, he has won all 4 Majors, Federer merely AO and Wimbledon. Yes Federer has done well at 250 level, but I do not watch 250 events as they are not legacy creators.

Sorry this is a non debatable issue that you will always lose. Nadal...Multiple Majors Multiple Slams. That is botton line. Federer had his chance at FO, got utterly hammered in semi final.
like I said peak to peak ,
2005-2009
Federer = 6 HC slams, Nadal = 1 HC slam
Federer = 4 grass slams, Nadal = 1 grass slam
Nadal = 4 clay slams, Federer = 1 slam
So its obvious.

And you got owned with the return stats ----- if you had a modicum of shame, you'd be embarassed.
 
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Pantera

Banned
Yes, there are HCs which are indoors. Bounce of a HC can be varied quite a bit.
You have absolutely zero clue. Stop embarassing yourself
Dude seriously, there are no indoor hard courts...have you ever been on the court at WTF in London? I have, it is not a hard court.
 

Pantera

Banned
like I said peak to peak ,
2005-2009
Federer = 6 HC slams, Nadal = 1 HC slam
Federer = 4 grass slams, Nadal = 1 grass slam
Nadal = 4 clay slams, Federer = 1 slam
So its obvious.
Nadal was not peak pre 2008 as he wasn't even an adult and fully grown. He was shorter in 2007 than 2008 for instance.

Bottom line is Federer 0 US Opens in the Nadal era. I am sorry, this is not an opinion, it is a fact. Nobody disputes pre-Nadal Federer was the best around. But then Nadal, then Djokovic came and moved the game on. The evidence is there for all to see.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Dude seriously, there are no indoor hard courts...have you ever been on the court at WTF in London? I have, it is not a hard court.
Its a low bouncing HC.
You are the only deluded guy in the world to think its not HC.
 

Pantera

Banned
Federer is better than Nadal outdoors anywhere but clay by pretty much all metrics, with the exception of the kind that could only come out of an insane asylum - like USO's won since 2008.
If Federer was so great outdoors why is it when peak Nadal and Djokovic arrived in over 10 years he has won only 4 outdoor majors? Unfortunately the statistics show he is way behind Nadal and Djokovic outdoors.
 

Pantera

Banned
Its a low bouncing HC.
You are the only deluded guy in the world to think its not HC.
It is not a hard court. Clue is in the name. a hard court bounces high as there is no give in the surface, indoor courts are of a softer compound and totally different to outdoor hard courts. Contact the manufacturers of the WTF surface if you do not believe me, for a fee they will provide a report.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
Federer is better than Nadal outdoors anywhere but clay by pretty much all metrics, with the exception of the kind that could only come out of an insane asylum - like USO's won since 2008.
Agree with Federer being better outdoors off clay. Nadal is just so dominant on clay though which is why I said maybe/debatable. For this reason the number of titles they won outdoors are very similar with Nadal being younger.
I don’t agree with slob Pantera points and not the point of the USO btw.
 

Fridge

Semi-Pro
Federer is better than Nadal outdoors anywhere but clay by pretty much all metrics, with the exception of the kind that could only come out of an insane asylum - like USO's won since 2008.
I believe the h2h between them in outdoor non-clay is 9-9 (i may be wrong as i quickly scanned the list). Statistically there is nothing to indicate that fed is better than nadal outdoors. Now if we include slam wins that changes the narrative heavily in favor of fed but that always happens when we take away clay. I for one would tend to see them as equal in strength on non-clay outdoor courts which says that nadal can handle fed on his worst surfaces while fed cannot handle nadal on his worst surface.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
Agree with Federer being better outdoors off clay. Nadal is just so dominant on clay though which is why I said maybe/debatable. For this reason the number of titles they won outdoors are very similar with Nadal being younger.
I don’t agree with slob Pantera points and not the point of the USO btw.
I believe the h2h between them in outdoor non-clay is 9-9 (i may be wrong as i quickly scanned the list). Statistically there is nothing to indicate that fed is better than nadal outdoors. Now if we include slam wins that changes the narrative heavily in favor of fed but that always happens when we take away clay. I for one would tend to see them as equal in strength on non-clay outdoor courts which says that nadal can handle fed on his worst surfaces while fed cannot handle nadal on his worst surface.
I'll answer you both together because I kinda want to make the same point to both of you. I think it should be pretty evident that overall Federer is better on all kinds of HC and on grass, his accomplishments on both are far better and I don't think judging their abilities on those surfaces through the microcosm of their h2h makes much sense. Now obviously Nadal is so insane on clay that the aggregate of his outdoors accomplishments is very close to Federer's, so you could make the argument that outdoors they're extremely close or maybe Nadal is even better etc... For me I see clay as one part of the calendar (an important part, but still only one part) and Federer being the clearly superior player on more surfaces makes him the better outdoor player and player overall.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal was not peak pre 2008 as he wasn't even an adult and fully grown. He was shorter in 2007 than 2008 for instance.

Bottom line is Federer 0 US Opens in the Nadal era. I am sorry, this is not an opinion, it is a fact. Nobody disputes pre-Nadal Federer was the best around. But then Nadal, then Djokovic came and moved the game on. The evidence is there for all to see.
@ bold part : ha ha ha ha, ha ha ha ha :-D:-D:-D

federer outside of clay = 19 slams
nadal outside of clay = 6 slams
peak to peak, 2005-2009, federer = 4 USOs, nadal = 0 USOs
oh and deluded one, federer did win USO in 2008. :)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It is not a hard court. Clue is in the name. a hard court bounces high as there is no give in the surface, indoor courts are of a softer compound and totally different to outdoor hard courts. Contact the manufacturers of the WTF surface if you do not believe me, for a fee they will provide a report.
its a HC. Every player who has played on it knows. So do the manufacturers. So does ATP.
I'm not spending any money just because a crazy teenager is throwing a deluded tantrum.
Just like no one sane would spend money because some deluded fool says earth is flat.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
I'll answer you both together because I kinda want to make the same point to both of you. I think it should be pretty evident that overall Federer is better on all kinds of HC and on grass, his accomplishments on both are far better and I don't think judging their abilities on those surfaces through the microcosm of their h2h makes much sense. Now obviously Nadal is so insane on clay that the aggregate of his outdoors accomplishments is very close to Federer's, so you could make the argument that outdoors they're extremely close or maybe Nadal is even better etc... For me I see clay as one part of the calendar (an important part, but still only one part) and Federer being the clearly superior player on more surfaces makes him the better outdoor player and player overall.
Fair enough you make good points here.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
While I agree with about Nadal indoors being relatively weak and poorer for a ATG remember his conditioning and bad injury luck esp late season due to the wear and tear on his body all season hasn’t helped that record at all. When he was in better shape he often had some good runs. He actually won his lone indoor title in Madrid 2005 before he got another serious late season injury which nearly ended his career.
that's still not enough reason for winning only 1 HC indoor title.
nadal's injuries are more his own style of playing/doing+some bad luck thrown in.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
that's still not enough reason for winning only 1 HC indoor title.
nadal's injuries are more his own style of playing/doing+some bad luck thrown in.
Nadal has a congenital foot problem he wears special shoes for - these place extra pressure on the knees. I do think he could choose to stand closer to the baseline and shorten points but you're really underselling the luck component.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
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Nadal has a congenital foot problem he wears special shoes for - these place extra pressure on the knees. I do think he could choose to stand closer to the baseline and shorten points but you're really underselling the luck component.
Yeah he was born with that. Those special shoes actually worsened his tendon issues which started bothering him in late 2008.
It is also the reason why he can go full clay seasons with little or no pain because it is softer on the knees but he can struggle to sustain it on HC in the late season.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Nadal has a congenital foot problem he wears special shoes for - these place extra pressure on the knees. I do think he could choose to stand closer to the baseline and shorten points but you're really underselling the luck component.
I was just thinking of guys like Haas, Hewitt, Safin etc.
Nadal's bad luck is really over-stated when compared to those guys.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
Hewitt had major hip surgery in 2005. He was never the same after did he performed so well in slams in 2004-2005 those were among his best years along with 2001-2002.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
And how were these guys unlucky?
Haas' career was the definition of start-stop due to injuries
Hewitt's hip injury ensured he was out of his prime after 2005. Else he'd have had atleast couple more prime years.
Safin lost 2003 due to injury and was never the same after mid-2005 due to injuries -- only had a few good matches/tournaments after mid-2005.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I don't know much about it, that's why I ask.
OK fair enough, sorry thought it was common knowledge.

Hewitt had two surgeries in 2005 that basically forced his decline (he's had many more since too), Safin missed basically all of 2003 due to injury and then blew out his knee in 2005 as well preventing him from ever following up on that AO victory. Haas is like Del Potro in terms of his injuries...
 
Haas' career was the definition of start-stop due to injuries
Hewitt's hip injury ensured he was out of his prime after 2005. Else he'd have had atleast couple more prime years.
Safin lost 2003 due to injury and was never the same after mid-2005 due to injuries -- only had a few good matches/tournaments after mid-2005.
OK fair enough, sorry thought it was common knowledge.

Hewitt had two surgeries in 2005 that basically forced his decline (he's had many more since too), Safin missed basically all of 2003 due to injury and then blew out his knee in 2005 as well preventing him from ever following up on that AO victory. Haas is like Del Potro in terms of his injuries...
Ok, thanks. I just didn't watch tennis back then.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
that's still not enough reason for winning only 1 HC indoor title.
nadal's injuries are more his own style of playing/doing+some bad luck thrown in.
I agree 1 title on indoor HC . Still these factors get overlooked when talking about Nadal indoors and the WTF generally. I disagree with him having a little bad luck and he has tried to make tweaks in his game to shorten points and step in more to the baseline like in 2010,2013,2017 to present but his serve is obviously not super.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
Three of the six best Slam performers/contenders of 2005 (Federer, Nadal, Safin, Roddick, Hewitt, Agassi; Dopuerta excluded) were forced into permanent drastic decline by end of year due to injuries (and Roddick went into a downward spiral until Cincy 06), which is why 2006 was unfortunately a weak season.
2006 had a hell of a great of a clay season though.
 

ReeceSachs

Hall of Fame
The centerpoint is Fed's Rome effort (tough QF, still tougher SF and of course legendary F). Barring that, I don't think it was extra special among other clay seasons until the present mug time (2017-?).
Nadal-PHM was a hell of a match at RG and the final with Nadal Federer was quite a good match even though not great. MC 2006 final was also a high quality match after the first set. So maybe just decent/good if leave out Rome. Rome 2006 mostly due to Federer-Nadal F was the main kicking point.
I think it was better than handful of clay seasons in the 2006-16 era but not as good as say the 2009 or 2011 clay swings. Which had all of the Big 4+depth at some point.
 

Lew II

Hall of Fame
I'd say 2015.
2014 was still okay.
2015 was still tougher/better than 2016-current though.
2015 is a weak year.
Federer said to be playing his best tennis in 2015.
He won zero slams in 2015.

So the best Fed won zero slams in a weak year :eek:
 
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