Nadal is looking ominous

Nathaniel_Near said:
I can't judge consistency from the youtube highlights. Perhaps you have a link to the whole match? I have the whole Fognini match fresh in the memory. Nadal hit so many attackable balls in 2006 and so many of his shots lost almost all their pace by the time they reached the opponent. His hitting on HC just wasn't that good, but he moved like lightning and mentally he was on his game in 2006.

It's bothersome to me that there are so many instances of his meagre hitting in those highlights considering that highlights typically show best play... He got away with it somewhat back then but still got destroyed frequently on HC anyway. Obviously, 2015 Nadal is a far cry from 2013 Nadal on HC, as that's when he produced his best stretch of form on HC.

In terms of results, 2006 and 2015 are quite similar on HC up to this point with one key difference, which is that Nadal roasted Federer in the 2006 Dubai final by this stage.
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Haha...I have quite a bit of VHS recordings of full matches all the way down to early eighties. I stopped recording them in 2009. Youtube is much easier to get quick looks that mounting my VHS :)

Your point is that you see no difference?
 
JohnnyMac Fan! said:
Haha...I have quite a bit of VHS recordings of full matches all the way down to early eighties. I stopped recording them in 2009. Youtube is much easier to get quick looks that mounting my VHS :)

Your point is that you see no difference?
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Overall I don't see much difference in overall quality. '06 hits a worse HC ball but has better movement and is in a way better frame of mind and '15 hits a substantially better HC ball but has worse movement (but better anticipation) and is shown to struggle mentally and physically, and his opponents can read his game better due to playing him for 100 years.

So for all intents and purposes I find the difference between the level of play negligible, but obviously both are massively inferior to Nadal from various other years and especially a year like 2013, where he managed 15(!!) wins against top-ten opposition for the year and 11 up to this point in the season.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Overall I don't see much difference in overall quality. '06 hits a worse HC ball but has better movement and is in a way better frame of mind and '15 hits a substantially better HC ball but has worse movement (but better anticipation) and is shown to struggle mentally and physically, and his opponents can read his game better due to playing him for 100 years.

So for all intents and purposes I find the difference between the level of play negligible, but obviously both are massively inferior to Nadal from various other years and especially a year like 2013, where he managed 15(!!) wins against top-ten opposition for the year and 11 up to this point in the season.
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Right, nice observation. Reaction time, I many not agree as much, as I have noticed, as well Spanish commentators noted(Nole/Nadal China Open Final) Nadal decline in reaction time on returns. Agility and speed also been dampening his original core game. He barely seem to reach and position properly to have substantial power when retrieving. I partially blame this to his current body size. I feel Nadal should lean up/ drop some weight somewhat and work on his foot work and court position.
His play mechanics are the same though for the most part
 
JohnnyMac Fan! said:
Right, nice observation. Reaction time, I many not agree as much, as I have noticed, as well Spanish commentators noted(Nole/Nadal China Open Final) Nadal decline in reaction time on returns. Agility and speed also been dampening his original core game. He barely seem to reach and position properly to have substantial power when retrieving. I partially blame this to his current body size. I feel Nadal should lean up/ drop some weight somewhat and work on his foot work and court position.
His play mechanics are the same though for the most part
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Yeah, I feel he looks a touch big also but would like to hear more views on this because we seem to be the only two to have mentioned it. Let's hope for a really good match later today.
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Yeah, I feel he looks a touch big also but would like to hear more views on this because we seem to be the only two to have mentioned it. Let's hope for a really good match later today.
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I will be paying close attention to his patters of play. Is he changing anything? Or will he just continue with the same tactics?
 
Nathaniel_Near said:
Yeah, I feel he looks a touch big also but would like to hear more views on this because we seem to be the only two to have mentioned it. Let's hope for a really good match later today.
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He's the same size as ever, the thing is, I don't think he needs to be so big anymore.
 
JohnnyMac Fan! said:
I will be paying close attention to his patters of play. Is he changing anything? Or will he just continue with the same tactics?
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He has always needed to change his patterns of play against Djokovic even when he was in his peak. His go to defensive game simply doesn't work against Djokovic. No version of Rafa is beating Djokovic playing his normal game. That's why in 2013 he had a bit more success against Djokovic, because of that DTL forehand and he was stepping into the court more. Watch Nadal in montreal especially in 2013 and he is much more aggressive than all his other years.
 
Noleberic123 said:
He has always needed to change his patterns of play against Djokovic even when he was in his peak. His go to defensive game simply doesn't work against Djokovic. No version of Rafa is beating Djokovic playing his normal game. That's why in 2013 he had a bit more success against Djokovic, because of that DTL forehand and he was stepping into the court more. Watch Nadal in montreal especially in 2013 and he is much more aggressive than all his other years.
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So you missed 2007-2012?
 
MichaelNadal said:
He's the same size as ever, the thing is, I don't think he needs to be so big anymore.
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One thing that was interesting when I was watching nadal this year live at the Rod Laver Arena was the height he was the hitting the ball over the net. I was pretty low and close to him and He wasn't hitting the ball extremely high over the net with extreme topspin like he usually does. I thought to myself maybe people are just overexaggerating how loopy his shots are or he has changed something.
 
Noleberic123 said:
He has always needed to change his patterns of play against Djokovic even when he was in his peak. His go to defensive game simply doesn't work against Djokovic. No version of Rafa is beating Djokovic playing his normal game. That's why in 2013 he had a bit more success against Djokovic, because of that DTL forehand and he was stepping into the court more. Watch Nadal in montreal especially in 2013 and he is much more aggressive than all his other years.
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True, watched the highlights earlier today.:)
 
Noleberic123 said:
Since 2011 Nadal has needed to be more aggressive to beat Djokovic. We can both agree his default game doesn't work against djokovic
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Not really, it's all about his mentality heading into the match. If he's confident, he can do it, if he isn't, he can't, which is why he'll lose tomorrow. People spin it so much like Nadal is useless against Novak, no one has beaten Novak more. His game hurts Ultron too believe it or not. Just not this ****ty version of him.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Not really, it's all about his mentality heading into the match. If he's confident, he can do it, if he isn't, he can't, which is why he'll lose tomorrow. People spin it so much like Nadal is useless against Novak, no one has beaten Novak more. His game hurts Ultron too believe it or not. Just not this ****ty version of him.
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the thing is there has been many matches since 2011 where nadal has looked useless against novak. Everyone has their own opinions on things. But I truly believe nadals default game works against everyone else except novak. Since 2011 look at the matches he has won against novak, he has been really aggressive in those but in the ones his lost he has been too tentative and has gotten a beating every single time
 
Seems like some people wouldn't see any improvement until Nadal wins a match 6-0,6-0 with all 12 games won at 40-0. If a player of 100 th rank managed to wrestle a point from Nadal, that means Nadal is still not dictating terms against players as low ranked as 100+. I would love to see how dominating he was in 2010 and 2013 in sheer numbers.
 
Noleberic123 said:
the thing is there has been many matches since 2011 where nadal has looked useless against novak. Everyone has their own opinions on things. But I truly believe nadals default game works against everyone else except novak. Since 2011 look at the matches he has won against novak, he has been really aggressive in those but in the ones his lost he has been too tentative and has gotten a beating every single time
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Has nothing to do with his game, it's the matchup. Nadal has to have a good day to beat Novak, always has, always will. They met a few times indoors and at the WTF, the expected result happened. Miami was the one loss that was truly bad from Nadal, but with Nadal in Miami, that's not too unexpected either. Rafa was at the peak of his powers before 2011, Novak after 2011, the flow of the rivalry is quite simple.

ForumMember said:
Seems like some people wouldn't see any improvement until Nadal wins a match 6-0,6-0 with all 12 games won at 40-0. If a player of 100 th rank managed to wrestle a point from Nadal, that means Nadal is still not dictating terms against players as low ranked as 100+. I would love to see how dominating he was in 2010 and 2013 in sheer numbers.
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Nadal absolutely SUCKS gamewise right now, no amount of betty crocker frosting can cover it.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Has nothing to do with his game, it's the matchup. Nadal has to have a good day to beat Novak, always has, always will. They met a few times indoors and at the WTF, the expected result happened. Miami was the one loss that was truly bad from Nadal, but with Nadal in Miami, that's not too unexpected either. Rafa was at the peak of his powers before 2011, Novak after 2011, the flow of the rivalry is quite simple.



Nadal absolutely SUCKS gamewise right now, no amount of betty crocker frosting can cover it.
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He has to have a spectacular day on hardcourt
 
ForumMember said:
Seems like some people wouldn't see any improvement until Nadal wins a match 6-0,6-0 with all 12 games won at 40-0. If a player of 100 th rank managed to wrestle a point from Nadal, that means Nadal is still not dictating terms against players as low ranked as 100+. I would love to see how dominating he was in 2010 and 2013 in sheer numbers.
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He has improved. but is he going to beat Djokovic? no
 
MichaelNadal said:
Has nothing to do with his game, it's the matchup. Nadal has to have a good day to beat Novak, always has, always will. They met a few times indoors and at the WTF, the expected result happened. Miami was the one loss that was truly bad from Nadal, but with Nadal in Miami, that's not too unexpected either. Rafa was at the peak of his powers before 2011, Novak after 2011, the flow of the rivalry is quite simple.



Nadal absolutely SUCKS gamewise right now, no amount of betty crocker frosting can cover it.
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He doesn't suck. The bloke is still ranked inside the top 10
 
Noleberic123 said:
He doesn't suck. The bloke is still ranked inside the top 10
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Nadal. Sucks. I'm not going to pretend to be delusional, he might be #10 but again that just shows the shape the ATP is in. Dude is literally lucky to be beating Fognini these days. It is what it is. Constant loss after loss after bad loss after easy loss after miss, after UE after beating, after beating, what will it take for the last of you to admit he's done? It's been a year and a half since he did anything meaningful.
 
Noleberic123 said:
Also hes not hitting very many balls past the service line. And you saw the way Djokovic is hitting the ball the moment.....
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Rafa doesn't have to hit balls as deep as Nole or many others do because of additional top spin he gives to balls. He makes balls land well inside baseline and then let bounce caused by top spin do the job. I don't think if he ever was painting baseline with his precise shots as some other players like Nole and Waw do when in zone. Having said that I do admit nowadays Nadal's ball are still falling way too short but last match (v Fognini) was an improvement.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Nadal. Sucks. I'm not going to pretend to be delusional, he might be #10 but again that just shows the shape the ATP is in. Dude is literally lucky to be beating Fognini these days. It is what it is.
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Are you saying Djokovic is dominating in a era where the 7th player in the world sucks s***?:eek:
 
ForumMember said:
Rafa doesn't have to hit balls as deep as Nole or many others do because of additional top spin he gives to balls. He makes balls land well inside baseline and then let bounce caused by top spin do the job. I don't think if he ever was painting baseline with his precise shots as some other players like Nole and Waw do when in zone. Having said that I do admit nowadays Nadal's ball are still falling way too short but last match (v Fognini) was an improvement.
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yeah but in 2015 lets be honest a lot of his balls are rolling over the net because he has no confidence. I never liked his buggy whip forehand anyways because he doesn't it through the shot as much as he could. Especially these days its doing him more harm. His not physically what he once was
 
Noleberic123 said:
yeah but in 2015 lets be honest a lot of his balls are rolling over the net because he has no confidence. I never liked his buggy whip forehand anyways because he doesn't it through the shot as much as he could. Especially these days its doing him more harm. His not physically what he once was
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I agree. How many times while watching his matches I wished he had that flat/crisp forehand , that Fognini and many other players have, to earn some winners and close points rather early. Many a times his loopy, high bouncing balls allows opponents to reach the ball and a sure shot winner gets converted into a good defense from opponent. I am not saying that loopy high bouncing forehands are useless but sometimes when opponent is in a bit of corner, you just need balls to pass through his side of court rather quickly.
 
ForumMember said:
I agree. How many times while watching his matches I wished he had that flat/crisp forehand , that Fognini and many other players have, to earn some winners and close points rather early. Many a times his loopy, high bouncing balls allows opponents to reach the ball and a sure shot winner gets converted into a good defense from opponent. I am not saying that loopy high bouncing forehands are useless but sometimes when opponent is in a bit of corner, you just need balls to pass through his side of court rather quickly.
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If he had a flat crispy forehand we don't know if he would be as successful. Not certainly he wouldn't dominate Federer this way I don't think
 
And that's the rub. His game is like a special purpose vehicle....put together to be Superman's Kryptonite. In that mission, he succeeded spectacularly. Is that going to help the cause of longevity? I don't know and so far the evidence is not very encouraging. You watch Nole cream the corners deep with smooth groundies and you think what chance does Nadal have now if he has to put in so much effort as the older player to beat Nole in top form. He could well beat Nole today, who knows. Far be it for me to stick my neck out too much, ha ha. But the style essentially is one that seems to make tennis look so difficult to play. Why would somebody buggy whip forehands off short-ish balls? He still hits winners with that technique, so it's not that it's not effective. But how EFFICIENT is it is the question.
 
Dolgopolov85 said:
And that's the rub. His game is like a special purpose vehicle....put together to be Superman's Kryptonite. In that mission, he succeeded spectacularly. Is that going to help the cause of longevity? I don't know and so far the evidence is not very encouraging. You watch Nole cream the corners deep with smooth groundies and you think what chance does Nadal have now if he has to put in so much effort as the older player to beat Nole in top form. He could well beat Nole today, who knows. Far be it for me to stick my neck out too much, ha ha. But the style essentially is one that seems to make tennis look so difficult to play. Why would somebody buggy whip forehands off short-ish balls? He still hits winners with that technique, so it's not that it's not effective. But how EFFICIENT is it is the question.
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Why does he hit buggy whip forehands off short balls?? it truly makes no sense. He has no momentum and loses power on his shot because he cant push his body weight forward when he hits a buggy whip forward
 
Noleberic123 said:
Why does he hit buggy whip forehands off short balls?? it truly makes no sense. He has no momentum and loses power on his shot because he cant push his body weight forward when he hits a buggy whip forward
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Because when he had the energy and movement to hit them correctly they were DEVASTATING. The buggy whip fh isn't a problem. The problem now is the fact that he doesn't have the game to hit them the way he used to over the course of matches anymore. It was always prone to drop short here and there, but overall the angle, topspin and pace was just too much for nearly everyone to deal with.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Because when he had the energy and movement to hit them correctly they were DEVASTATING. The buggy whip fh isn't a problem. The problem now is the fact that he doesn't have the game to hit them the way he used to over the course of matches anymore. It was always prone to drop short here and there, but overall the angle, topspin and pace was just too much for nearly everyone to deal with.
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His forehand is more devastating when he hits through it.
 
Noleberic123 said:
His forehand is more devastating when he hits through it.
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It might look that way, but no. Nadal's buggy whip FH is what has made him as successful as he is. It's easy to look at the times it lands short and say it's not a good shot. In reality, it's one of the best FHs ever and what made his game as awe-inspiring as it was. Hitting flat isn't everything :p

rafa-winner.gif
 
MichaelNadal said:
It might look that way, but no. Nadal's buggy whip FH is what has made him as successful as he is. It's easy to look at the times it lands short and say it's not a good shot. In reality, it's one of the best FHs ever and what made his game as awe-inspiring as it was.
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I hate the technique more than anything to be honest.
 
MichaelNadal said:
I think it's a brilliant shot when he's hitting it right. Post 2013 it's a joke.
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At the start of 2014 he was alright. After RG 14 he fell off a cliff. But yeah since then all his shots are landing barely on the service line

At the moment he is just using it to roll the ball over the net
 
Noleberic123 said:
At the start of 2014 he was alright. After RG 14 he fell off a cliff. But yeah since then all his shots are landing barely on the service line

At the moment he is just using it to roll the ball over the net
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Actually, he was hitting it quite well at Wimbledon last year as well. That forehand against Kukushkin was incredible.

Can only find it here at the 5:23 mark

 
Gary20 said:
You missed my point. Im saying he is improving. Still not near his legendry best, but it is the best ive seen him this year which is encouraging.
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I personally did not see any improvement. Saw the highlights of his match against Fog and honestly couldnt see any improvement compared to his level at the USO.And to think that highlights are supposed to make a player look better
 
The_Order said:
Actually, he was hitting it quite well at Wimbledon last year as well. That forehand against Kukushkin was incredible.

Can only find it here at the 5:23 mark

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True he did pretty well at Wimbledon compared to all recent years from 2011. So I would say after Wimbledon 2014 he fell off a cliff dramatically
 
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