Nadal is the Greatest Returner of the current era (statistically)

TheFifthSet

Legend
Didn't you tell me the percentage was more relevant than the number overall? First you told me the percentage is more relevant for the Nadal-Coria comparison. Now you tell me the number of return points won is better for the Nadal-Federer comparison. So you change your criteria depending on which one do you want to favour.

No, you misunderstood. When I said he's not even close to those guys in return numbers, I'm acknowledging that Federer's return game is inferior (even against Nadal..while he's better on non-clay surfaces, Nadal's edge in clay is too huge for me to try arguing Federer has a better return game). IOW I'm saying their return numbers are better than Fed's.

So, absolutely no double standard here. Try again with something else, let's see if it'll stick.
 

peakin11mugs

Semi-Pro
I'm not sure why nadal gets so much critisicm for standing so far behind the baseline. It's weird I get that but it works for him and is a good tactic for him so he would be silly to change (If he carried on his 3 year HC drought then yes he needs to think of making overall changes to his game and he needs to make changes to win in indoors and we have yet to see if it will affect his longevity) His return strategy is different i.e. It's about setting up a point not an outright winner or immediate pressure shot.

He has also said himself in details that he also serves slower on purpose to buy more time as it suits his style of play and point construction. He has explicitly stated that he does not want to serve faster. Again it works for his style of of play.

As for original question nadals return GAME may be statistically good but his return stroke itself is not as good it is more of a set up
 

Jaitock1991

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure why nadal gets so much critisicm for standing so far behind the baseline. It's weird I get that but it works for him and is a good tactic for him so he would be silly to change (If he carried on his 3 year HC drought then yes he needs to think of making overall changes to his game and he needs to make changes to win in indoors and we have yet to see if it will affect his longevity) His return strategy is different i.e. It's about setting up a point not an outright winner or immediate pressure shot.

He has also said himself in details that he also serves slower on purpose to buy more time as it suits his style of play and point construction. He has explicitly stated that he does not want to serve faster. Again it works for his style of of play.

As for original question nadals return GAME may be statistically good but his return stroke itself is not as good it is more of a set up

Well said.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Statitics are science. something not debatable. Nadal is indeed the greatest returner of the Open Era along with Djokovic. Federer fans will dislike it, and will come here with subjective arguments. However, no Fed fan will come here with statitics proving Federer is suppousedly better than Nadal resting.
There is 0 evidence that proves this. Return games are mostly about groundstrokes, not the return itself.

Just like the fact that Nadal having a very high 2nd serve points won ratio doesn't mean he has a good second serve.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
No, you misunderstood. When I said he's not even close to those guys in return numbers, I'm acknowledging that Federer's return game is inferior (even against Nadal..while he's better on non-clay surfaces, Nadal's edge in clay is too huge for me to try arguing Federer has a better return game). IOW I'm saying their return numbers are better than Fed's.

So, absolutely no double standard here. Try again with something else, let's see if it'll stick.

Nadal is a better returner overall not only on clay. At least in hard courts is evident.

The problem with Nadal is that he has a weak serve. That's why rivals find it easier to break his serve. And if you lose your service game in Wimbledon, it means almost sure that you will lose the set. Müller broke Nadal's service game several times. He wouldn't have done that with Federer and his better serve.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
There is 0 evidence that proves this. Return games are mostly about groundstrokes, not the return itself.

Just like the fact that Nadal having a very high 2nd serve points won ratio doesn't mean he has a good second serve.

Bad analogy. The serve includes both the first and second serve point. It includes also the capacity to make aces. When people talk about the better server they mean generally the player who makes more aces, no the one who wins more second serve points.

So yes, the percentage of return games won means Nadal is a returner more effective (therefore better) than Federer. Federer is, on the other hand, a better server with a higher percentage of aces made.

Statitics are science. Please don't try to make post-hoc pseudocientic arguments to suggest Federer is a better returner than Nadal.
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Bad analogy. The serve includes both the first and second serve point.
The analogy was perfect until you added "1st serve" to my argument out of nowhere.
So yes, the percentage of return games won means Nadal is a returner more effective (therefore better) than Federer. Federer is, on the other hand, a better server with a higher percentage of aces made.

Statitics are science. Please don't try to make post-hoc pseudocientic arguments to suggest Federer is a better returner than Nadal.
WTF you can't make a judgement that Nadal has a better ROS than Federer based on the fact that he broke more. Federer plays in a completely different way than Nadal - he breaks once and tanks the remaining return games in the set. I'm not even mentioning other factors like Nadal playing tons of matches on clay, being an almost complete non-factor on grass while Federer literally skipped the entire clay court season this year - a surface which allows for far easier breaks of serve.

If Nadal has a better ROS while does he keep returning serves from the 1st row? I have seen Federer make a joke of Isner's serve while standing on the baseline, when did Nadal do that?

Besides, a return game is so much more than the return itself. It's not like Nadal is hitting ROS winners, he's just putting the ball back in play, then works his way to a neutral position from the baseline in which he's usually more adept than his opponent.

Your overall logic is just ludicrously bad, it's like saying Nadal has better volleys than Federer because he's got better stats at the net (without considering on what kind of shots Federer and Nadal approach the net). I have literally never seen Nadal chip and charge in his career.

I guess Nadal did a better job at serve and volleying than Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon final too, right. He was 100% effective for the day.
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Statitics are science.
If you know how to interpret them correctly which you clearly don't. If Isner hit more aces than Karlovic at the end of the day who would you consider to have a better 1st serve?
 
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Freddy Cat

Professional
He's a smart returner, for sure. I still think it's a little ridiculous that Isner/Anderson don't throw in a drop serve against Nadal. I don't think he'd stand back that far if Isner/Anderson could serve and volley. He's very aware of his opponent's capabilities, which is why he's hugging the baseline against Ivo, who gets to the net fast af.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Just curious:

Are differential stats available based on surface?

My guess is that Nadal is the clay return GOAT because all he really does on clay is stand deep and blast a looping return to start a neutral point that he can ultimately grind out on the dirt due to his vastly superior ground game.

I'm guessing that Novak would be better on HC in stats. That's just a hunch.

Also, what about aces conceded?
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Just curious:

Are differential stats available based on surface?

My guess is that Nadal is the clay return GOAT because all he really does on clay is stand deep and blast a looping return to start a neutral point that he can ultimately grind out on the dirt due to his vastly superior ground game.

I'm guessing that Novak would be better on HC in stats. That's just a hunch.

Also, what about aces conceded?
Yes, they are.

Here´s one great site:

http://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/statsLeaders

You are correct, Nadal´s numbers reflect results in clay. In HC and grass his return is much weaker.
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
Nadal is a better returner overall not only on clay. At least in hard courts is evident.

The problem with Nadal is that he has a weak serve. That's why rivals find it easier to break his serve. And if you lose your service game in Wimbledon, it means almost sure that you will lose the set. Müller broke Nadal's service game several times. He wouldn't have done that with Federer and his better serve.

You haven't provided any evidence for your claims. Federer is a better returner on HC + grass. Again, see here:

Nadal, in general, isn't really a better returner than Federer on hard courts, particularly against top opponents.

Career break% against the top 10 on HC:

Federer: 24.3%
Nadal: 20.4%

And against the top 5:

Federer: 22.1%
Nadal: 18.9%


Over hundreds of matches, that's an absolutely enormous edge. Nadal was indeed better in 2011 though; 21.5% and 23.2% against the top 10 and 5 as opposed to 20.4% and 18.9% for Federer. Keep in mind that these rates would be heavily influenced by their respective matches against Djokovic at the USO, since the overall sample size is so small. There's also no evidence to suggest that Nadal returns Djokovic better than Federer does on HC, plenty to the contrary in fact (19.9%-15.4% -- Federer and Nadal's respective % of return games won against Djokovic on HC). As for who returned better in that years Open specifically, well, Nadal won 40.8% of his return games compared to 36.6% for Federer...but, excluding their matches w/Novak, it was 46.3%-42.9% for Federer. All in all, I think @abmk is right to say that the gap between the two in return game on HC is, at the very worst, negligible. I'd go even further and argue that Federer's return game on HC is CLEARLY better.

That said, I do agree that Djokovic was slightly more devastating in the final than the semi. He was a little loose on serve, but that may have been because he wasn't serving with the same urgency. He got into a mode where he was breaking Nadal seemingly at will.

Basically, against the top 50 and up, Federer smokes Nadal in return statistics on hard courts. Nadal makes up much of that advantage against sub-70/80 ranked players...in other words the caliber of player that both beat in their sleep. At the end of the day, who cares if Nadal beats a low-ranked player 6-1, 6-1 as opposed to 6-3, 6-4? Federer's edge against the elite competition is absolutely insurmountable.

The Muller example is an appeal to an extremely small sample size. Federer's break rate is actually higher than Nadal's on grass....25.2%-23.8%. The serve is not the only reason Nadal is inferior to Federer on that surface.

Again, I agree that Nadal's return game (not return itself), across all surfaces, is superior to Federer's. This is because his pronounced advantage on clay makes up for Federer's comparatively smaller advantages on the two other surfaces...but no, his return game is not superior on grass and HC.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
He's a smart returner, for sure. I still think it's a little ridiculous that Isner/Anderson don't throw in a drop serve against Nadal. I don't think he'd stand back that far if Isner/Anderson could serve and volley. He's very aware of his opponent's capabilities, which is why he's hugging the baseline against Ivo, who gets to the net fast af.
Anderson does not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Isner with regard to serving!

Anderson is a good server. Isner has one of the top 3 serves in the history of the game.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
People often complain that Rafa's service return isn't as great as compared to Djokovic and Murray so I decided to do a simple comparison. Basically did a comparison of all the return stats from the ATP website and while they are incredibly close, Rafa is equal or better than Djokoray in every single metric!

Nadal
1st Serve Return Points Won 34%
2nd Serve Return Points Won 55%
Break Points Opportunities 8,898
Break Points Converted 45%
Return Games Played 11,982
Return Games Won 33%
Return Points Won 42%
Total Points Won 54%

Djokovic

1st Serve Return Points Won 34%
2nd Serve Return Points Won 55%
Break Points Opportunities 7,943
Break Points Converted 44%
Return Games Played 10,975
Return Games Won 32%
Return Points Won 42%
Total Points Won 54%

Murray
1st Serve Return Points Won 34%
2nd Serve Return Points Won 55%
Break Points Opportunities 7,308
Break Points Converted 44%
Return Games Played 9,958
Return Games Won 32%
Return Points Won 42%
Total Points Won 53%
If Murray and Djokovic played a lot more on clay they'd probably lead the overall stat.;)
 

vex

Legend
That would mean he has the best return game, not necessarily the best return stroke.

Yup, this stat is super misleading bc Rafa's numbers are so clay skewed where returns aren't as important, he frequently bows out early on grass where returns are huge and once the point in at least in play he's a dominant baseline force. His return shot itself is a huge weakness, all you need to do is what his WIMBY exit this year where he was getting serve and volleyed on 2nd serves to recognize it.

Sorry @aman92
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Nope
Djokovic is better

By a million. Djokovic and Murray are the greatest returners of the past 11 years. I use that demarcation because that's when Andre hung it up. Agassi was a greater returner by far than any current player because he returned serves on FAST grass, carpet and fast outdoor courts. None of those things exist today so everyone has much more time to return serve.

Anyone thinking Nadal has a great ROS is simply deluded or has their tongue so far up Nadals backside there are no words for it. Clue for you people: great returners don't need (or want) to stand on Mars to return a serve.
 

vex

Legend
By a million. Djokovic and Murray are the greatest returners of the past 11 years. I use that demarcation because that's when Andre hung it up. Agassi was a greater returner by far than any current player because he returned serves on FAST grass, carpet and fast outdoor courts. None of those things exist today so everyone has much more time to return serve.

Anyone thinking Nadal has a great ROS is simply deluded or has their tongue so far up Nadals backside there are no words for it. Clue for you people: great returners don't need (or want) to stand on Mars to return a serve.

Nadal got that court side seats level return goin on... so $$$$. Literally, I think he could snag a seat back there...
 

clayqueen

Talk Tennis Guru
The fixation on Rafa's position to receive serve is baffling. There is no set rule on this and players receive serve from a position that works for them. So what is this about? Has Rafa not won enough matches to prove that standing way back beyond the baseline works for him? Rafa has bageled and bread-sticked Karlovic, Raonic and Delpo. I think he knows what he's doing.
 
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