NADAL is the MOST COMPLETE TENNIS PLAYER ever

racquetreligion

Hall of Fame
he needs at least 3 end of year atp final on indoor hc to be even in the conversation
usually his round robins in London dont even come close to Birdman and has
a losing record to Davydenko and 0 wins vs Kyrgios on HCs.
 

BeatlesFan

Bionic Poster
Relative to everyone else yes. Yeah the volleys weren't good but relative to everyone else I think he was the most well rounded in an era without Lux.
Well, but how else do we measure a tennis player in any other terms than "relative to everyone else?" ;) I think without any question Andre was the greatest natural ball striker in the history of the sport, better than Djokovic by far. But wouldn't you say Pete was the more well rounded player? His FH was as good as Andre's, his movement, serve, net play and speed were all superior. I couldn't stand Pete, but he was the better and more versatile player, no? A well rounded player must have good net skills. It's why I don't ever say Novak is well rounded because he's atrocious at net.

@YellowFedBetter
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
The worst thing about Nadal winning slams is not that he wins them it's all of his loyal trolls that spam the boards with garbage after he wins.

He's not the most complete in any way. He can't beat his way out of a paper bag on indoor, a fact his fanatics can't or won't grasp.
 

YellowFedBetter

Hall of Fame
Well, but how else do we measure a tennis player in any other terms than "relative to everyone else?" ;) I think without any question Andre was the greatest natural ball striker in the history of the sport, better than Djokovic by far. But wouldn't you say Pete was the more well rounded player? His FH was as good as Andre's, his movement, serve, net play and speed were all superior. I couldn't stand Pete, but he was the better and more versatile player, no? A well rounded player must have good net skills. It's why I don't ever say Novak is well rounded because he's atrocious at net.

@YellowFedBetter
I have no problem with any of those points. And I tend to agree with you I don't hate Pete but he's always come off to me as kind of a goody two shoes self righteous type. He kinda showed it at the Charity IW thing. Good on you for saying Andre was the best ball striker though. Djokovic has had the aid of Luxilon.
 

YellowFedBetter

Hall of Fame
The worst thing about Nadal winning slams is not that he wins them it's all of his loyal trolls that spam the boards with garbage after he wins.

He's not the most complete in any way. He can't beat his way out of a paper bag on indoor, a fact his fanatics can't or won't grasp.
Madrid 2005. And he beat Fed at '13 WTF.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
If the argument is about surfaces then Steffi Graf for me but she wouldn't count as the most complete player as she lacked a top spin backhand or at least the confidence to execute it. Roger Federer is the most rounded player I think.
 

BlueClayGOAT

Semi-Pro
To answer straight up: no, Rafa isn't the most complete player of all time. He's a phenomenal player, but not the most complete, no. He has won on every surface mostly because he is such a freaking force of nature when he's on: tremendous footspeed and endurance, great baseline game, amazing forehand, great defense, and he's probably the best passer ever seen. His game just powers through every surface when he is at his best. That's not to say he isn't adaptable or hasn't made changes to his game, just that he plays more or less the same way at 31 as he did at 21 (with a few adjustments)- and good on him. It works for him, so why not?

Among players I've seen, it's unquestionably Federer who is the most complete- and he has a good shout at being the most complete player ever. There should be no doubt about that if you've seen him play.
Fed is the only guy to make at least 5 finals at each major (although Rafa and Nole are both pretty close to matching this feat), and at his peak he was good enough that he was only shut out from multiple calendar year grand slams by the clay GOAT. He is also the only guy to win at least 10 titles on each of outdoor HC, indoor HC, clay, and grass.

Fed over his career has shown enough adaptability to transition from a pure S&V style on grass in 2001-03, to the greatest attacking (but predominantly baseline-favoring) all-courter the world had yet seen in the mid-2000s (which prompted guys like Rafa and Nole to become as good at the baseline counterpunching game as they are), to becoming an ultra-attacking, quick-strike player from 2014-17, and to make several changes to his game like becoming more aggressive on serve returns (SABR is just a part of this), improving his already excellent serve to rarefied heights of accuracy and disguise, taking the ball early, revamping his backhand etc.

He also regularly does things you almost never see in today's game- picking up volleys off his toes, half-volleying from baseline to baseline, swinging volleys etc. There's not a shot he can't or doesn't play well. He can play pure S&V, he can play purely from the baseline, and he is comfortable anywhere on the court and on any surface.

Djokovic also gets an honorable mention here, but he isn't as good as Fed or Rafa at some aspects like volleying, slicing, and of course, smashes. :p
In fact, he probably has the least variety of the Big 4, although he is more consistent on the baseline off both wings than any of them.
 

YellowFedBetter

Hall of Fame
Well, but how else do we measure a tennis player in any other terms than "relative to everyone else?" ;) I think without any question Andre was the greatest natural ball striker in the history of the sport, better than Djokovic by far. But wouldn't you say Pete was the more well rounded player? His FH was as good as Andre's, his movement, serve, net play and speed were all superior. I couldn't stand Pete, but he was the better and more versatile player, no? A well rounded player must have good net skills. It's why I don't ever say Novak is well rounded because he's atrocious at net.

@YellowFedBetter
Hey I know this is off topic but I know you go to IW each year, how reasonable are the prices and what do you do about lodging? There's no chance in hades of me being able to go anytime soon, but one day perhaps I would love to go there if I ever get to make a cross country trip.

And what is the best way to get the most bang for your money? Never been to a big event before.
 

Slightly D1

Professional
I think this year is his shot to get the Indoor WTF, Fed is clearly breaking down from this hard season and if he handles his business against the supporting cast type players then it should be his for the taking.
 

Stratsworth

Rookie
HE is better at the moment. 16 majors at 31 a better strike rate than 19 at 36

Not better 'at the moment', no matter how much irrelevant cricket terminology is used to obfuscate the uninformed.

Prediction road is littered with the shamed corpses of those who relied upon a linear progression to forecast future achievements - especially in regards to players past their prime.

Fed had 17 majors at 30 years of age - that's better than 16/31, BTW. And it would be folly to use those facts as a crystal ball.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Nadal has won at least 2 Grand Slams on each surface (grass, hard and clay). Federer only won 1 Grand Slam on clay. He needs at least another French Open title to have his Grand Slams so evenly distributed as Nadal. And I don't see as a valid excuse the FO finals argument. Nadal also has 5 finals on Wimbledon. Nadal defeated Federer in Grand Slams on hard courts (Australian Open) and grass (Wimbledon). Federer should have defeated Nadal in Roland Garros.

Nadal leads the overall H2H over Federer (even 8-5 in oudoor hard courts). If you look at their H2H on clay and then compare it with their H2H on surfaces other than clay, it's very hard to argue that Roger is the better all-surface player. Especially if you look at Grand Slams where Nadal leads 9-3. Rafa is 5-0 in GS matches on clay and 4-3 in surfaces other than clay. There's no comparison. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and these things can't be proved, but there are, to put it mildly, serious grounds for disputing the theory that Roger is the better all-surface player
 

Novacane

New User
Also he is the best double player between all the top players which talks how much versatil is Nadal

Nadal is the most adaptative and well-rounded player ever imo
 

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Nadal

10 Grand Slams on clay
4 Grand Slams on hard
2 Grand Slams on grass

Other All Time Greats


Federer

10 GS on hard
8 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Sampras
7 GS on grass
7 GS on hard

Djokovic
8 GS on hard
3 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Borg
6 GS on clay
5 GS on grass
fafa.jpg

Looks perfectly rounded, yeah.
 

joy-z

New User
His game, more than anyone else, is highly dependent on modern racquet and string technology.

If you took away his 100 sq.in. racquet and spin friendly polyester strings and put him on the men's tour in the 80s or 90s, I highly doubt he would have collected 16 major titles.
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
Wish he were more complete than complete so he can compete with the likes of Pete at the peak of the tennis year, Wimbledon, for a repeat of the channel slam, because his peak tennis on the grass has been replete with peat since 2011.

giphy.webp
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
But what about WTF titles???? Don't those count?
He reeched a final. That's good enuff.

In any case, it has been repeeted here hundreds of times that WTF is a cheesy exo. What is more it has a roof which is not real tennis. The court is also beneficial to Federer.
Clearly you have not been paying attention.

You can also loose one match and still win the hole thing, so it's phony as hell.

Vamos!
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Nadal

10 Grand Slams on clay
4 Grand Slams on hard
2 Grand Slams on grass

Other All Time Greats


Federer

10 GS on hard
8 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Sampras
7 GS on grass
7 GS on hard

Djokovic
8 GS on hard
3 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Borg
6 GS on clay
5 GS on grass
You had to . . . :(
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
---

Among pure Open Era players, Complete by surface versatility, the short list includes Connors, Borg, Lendl, Agassi, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic

If I had to choose 1, I think I'd favour Lendl

based on what ? his magnificent Wimbledon success ?
no way.

Federer, Agassi clearly over Lendl in terms of surface versatility. Federer sure as hell would've won multiple Wimbledons in any era. And agassi actually won all the 4 slams before homogenization.

Lendl has several things over Agassi - dominance, #1 for longer time, consistency, but surface versatility is one thing he does not have over Agassi.

You could argue Djokovic over Lendl too - but then you could also say Lendl would atleast one Wimbledon on the current day grass and Djoko may not have won a Wimbledon on the faster/lower bouncing grass. But I think I'd still give djoko the slight edge over Lendl on the older grass due to his return.
 
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borg25

New User
Nadal

10 Grand Slams on clay
4 Grand Slams on hard
2 Grand Slams on grass

Other All Time Greats


Federer

10 GS on hard
8 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Sampras
7 GS on grass
7 GS on hard

Djokovic
8 GS on hard
3 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Borg
6 GS on clay
5 GS on grass


Nadal is the best moonballer of all time. He is the most boring 1 dimensional player I have ever seen.
Hit 80% moonballs to opponents backhand and wait for an error or short ball.
Repeat!
 

thrust

Legend
Nadal

10 Grand Slams on clay
4 Grand Slams on hard
2 Grand Slams on grass

Other All Time Greats


Federer

10 GS on hard
8 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Sampras
7 GS on grass
7 GS on hard

Djokovic
8 GS on hard
3 GS on grass
1 GS on clay

Borg
6 GS on clay
5 GS on grass
Considering amateur, pro and open era Rosewall has
8 on grass
6 on clay
9 on wood or canvas, indoor.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
If Rafa is the most complete player ever, he'll win, oh, some YEC indoors...
You can bet if he ever wins a World Tour Finals, it won't be an exho any more!!


:D
 

BlueClayGOAT

Semi-Pro
Nadal has won at least 2 Grand Slams on each surface (grass, hard and clay). Federer only won 1 Grand Slam on clay. He needs at least another French Open title to have his Grand Slams so evenly distributed as Nadal. And I don't see as a valid excuse the FO finals argument. Nadal also has 5 finals on Wimbledon. Nadal defeated Federer in Grand Slams on hard courts (Australian Open) and grass (Wimbledon). Federer should have defeated Nadal in Roland Garros.

Nadal leads the overall H2H over Federer (even 8-5 in oudoor hard courts). If you look at their H2H on clay and then compare it with their H2H on surfaces other than clay, it's very hard to argue that Roger is the better all-surface player. Especially if you look at Grand Slams where Nadal leads 9-3. Rafa is 5-0 in GS matches on clay and 4-3 in surfaces other than clay. There's no comparison. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and these things can't be proved, but there are, to put it mildly, serious grounds for disputing the theory that Roger is the better all-surface player

God, using the H2H argument should be made grounds for capital punishment now. Tennis is not just 2 players playing only each other over a whole career.
 

Waspsting

Hall of Fame
based on what (Lendl being the most versatile by surface) ? his magnificent Wimbledon success ?
no way.

Yes - his 'magnificent' Wimbledon success and Queens - in the pre-homogenized era... where almost everyone had at least one surface on which they fell flat on - including ATGs

Lendl reached 2 finals and 5 semis at Wimbledon (with another final and semi on the grass in Australia) and won two Queens titles... that's excellent

Agassi clearly over Lendl in terms of surface versatility.... And agassi actually won all the 4 slams before homogenization.

No, he is not

Agassi on grass is 50-18, 1 title, win rate 73.5%.... at Wimbledon its 46-13 @ 77.9%
Lendl is 81-27, 2 titles, win rate 75%... at Wimbledon its 48-14 @ 77.4%

We are NOT talking about achievements so Agassi's greater accomplishment (the Wimbledon title) isn't all that relevant... at the very least, they are comparable and by no stretch of the (sane) imagination is Agassi "clearly over" (your words, not mine) on grass alone

Peak Lendl lost three matches to a peak Becker at Wimbledon, also handed him a first class crushing at Queens... Peak Agassi lost to well past his peak Becker, at a time when he could apparently read Boris' serve at will and the only match of the last 11 they played that he did... you figure it out

Furthermore, on 2 of the 3 remaining surfaces, Lendl is far ahead of Agassi

Further still, if you understand tennis, you'll know that the key to versatility is clay to non-clay... being proficient on both grass and carpet doesn't make you particularly versatile, the play and skillsets involved are similar. Hard and carpet too. Grass and hard to a lesser extent

Clay and anything else though... is a huge jump

Agassi's base is hard courts... and he plays well on the other surfaces too
What's Lendl's base? Ask 3 well informed judges don't be surprised if you get 3 different answers... I can't think of anyone else of whom that might be said. Jimmy Connors might be closest

Lendl is far more versatile than Agassi
- it isn't particularly close

---
Federer sure as hell would've won multiple Wimbledons in any era.

And the French? More specifically, clay?

Do you know what Federer's clay record was prior to his victory Hamburg 2002? (which would be about the time he switched to poly strings)

17-24

Do you know how many matches he lost before picking up a win? 11 (and that includes multiple challenger events - and the run was broken at one)

He wasn't like this on grass or hard courts... not even on carpet... do you think he would have snapped up clay titles right, left and center playing the way he has on clay in "any era" (again, your words, not mine)?

If you know anything about other eras, you'll know that clay has until very recently been a surface where winners are at a premium, it was all about not making errors

Federer had better than average defence at his peak ... but he was no "human wall" and his actual clay success is more a product of aggresive shot making than grinding.

What we've seen from him is as out of sorts from previous generations on clay as Nadal and Djokovic are on grass - a fair point against the latter two I've seen you raise multiple times

Feel free put the above to the posters you actually respect on the Former Player Forum... see what they tell you

----

You do Not understand tennis to anything like the extent you seem to think you do.... talk less, listen more, ask questions, not issue challenges... you might even learn something

 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
Of course. How can Federer be the most complete if he can't win the Olympic Gold Medal in singles?
 

MeatTornado

Talk Tennis Guru
Would love to see Rafa try and win 2 Wimbledons in Borg or Pete's time. Winning on 21st century grass does not automatically make him more complete than the players of the past who couldn't complete the career slam.
 
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